A Semi-Outsider's perspective

[luigijerk]

I haven't played smash since college...i haven't been on here in like a year. I never posted much, but i lurked a lot and was solid at brawl, so I do understand the metagame.

I know the whole Brawl<<<<Melee conversation is tired, but I have to say....

This board is dead compared to what it used to be. The tier list is also basically the same as last I checked with only a few irrelevant mid tiers moving around a bit, any of which could be hard countered and aren't game breaking.

The game is stagnant. This is mostly the fault of brawl being too basic of a game (I promise I love brawl, but it's true). This is also because metaknight was never banned due to the stubborness of the community. I just felt compelled to say this. I won't be playing smash anytime soon, but damn! I am shocked at how things turned out.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well, you're wrong for a few reasons.

Firstly, the metagame is still evolving. You see a lot of play nowadays with un- and underexplored characters... Just not much of it here; mostly in the character boards. The BBR has started a stage analysis project which I know nothing about but should increase our knowledge and understanding of stages. The top level metagame is still on the up and up, and the discussion of "who's the best" is once again open, looks like Ally is really doing well again. New strategies and ATs are being discovered (like dash pivot cancelling or BDACUS), and to claim the game is "too basic" makes me think that this is just a bad attempt at trolling. And the tier list is an absolutely horrible place to hunt for metagame data. In any case, you're flat-out wrong. Oh, and welcome to smashboards.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You're watching a ****ing tier list thread and expect to draw viable conclusions about the metagame based on that rather than looking at tourney results?

Good call.

 

[Malcolm.O]

Well, you're wrong for a few reasons.

Firstly, the metagame is still evolving. You see a lot of play nowadays with un- and underexplored characters... Just not much of it here; mostly in the character boards. The BBR has started a stage analysis project which I know nothing about but should increase our knowledge and understanding of stages. The top level metagame is still on the up and up, and the discussion of "who's the best" is once again open, looks like Ally is really doing well again. New strategies and ATs are being discovered (like dash pivot cancelling or BDACUS), and to claim the game is "too basic" makes me think that this is just a bad attempt at trolling. And the tier list is an absolutely horrible place to hunt for metagame data. In any case, you're flat-out wrong. Oh, and welcome to smashboards.

Sums up the thread

 

[EpixAura]

Well, you're wrong for a few reasons.

Firstly, the metagame is still evolving. You see a lot of play nowadays with un- and underexplored characters... Just not much of it here; mostly in the character boards. The BBR has started a stage analysis project which I know nothing about but should increase our knowledge and understanding of stages. The top level metagame is still on the up and up, and the discussion of "who's the best" is once again open, looks like Ally is really doing well again. New strategies and ATs are being discovered (like dash pivot cancelling or BDACUS), and to claim the game is "too basic" makes me think that this is just a bad attempt at trolling. And the tier list is an absolutely horrible place to hunt for metagame data. In any case, you're flat-out wrong. Oh, and welcome to smashboards.

Ally is doing well again because he switched to MK, which largely proves the OP's point. Most ATs have been known about forever, and very little has been added, and even then, most of it them were discovered for the higher-tiered characters. All the MK mains make me feel like the metagame is not only stagnant, but is starting to move backwards.

As for Brawl being "too basic..." I may have some problems with Brawl, (see above) but it has a good bit of depth to it. It may be basic, but it's incredibly mindgame oriented. Moreso than Melee, but no to the point where it's more of a guessing game like in some of the more generic fighters.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ally had to use Snake to beat ADHD's Diddy Kong at Pound V and went IC's against ESAM's pika there too. Ally is very good at several characters and attributing his success solely to MK is wrong.

 

[EpixAura]

Ally had to use Snake to beat ADHD's Diddy Kong at Pound V and went IC's against ESAM's pika there too. Ally is very good at several characters and attributing his success solely to MK is wrong.

He's used Snake since he started. After enough practice with the Diddy MU as MK, he should be able to dominate. The only reason he beat ESAM was because ESAM was playing pretty badly towards the end. I think he could have gone back to MK and done a much better job.

I'm not attributing all of his success to MK. I believe he is currently the best Brawl player at the moment. What I'm saying is, Ally nearly dropped off the radar for a little while, being completely destroyed by others for a month or so, switches to MK, and magically becomes the number 1. MK shouldn't make THAT much of a difference, and yet...

 

[Zankoku]

Magically? The reason Ally "dropped off the radar," as you say, was because he had started splitting his practice time between Snake and Meta Knight, including attempting to go all MK in any locals he went to. By the time he made the switch to mainly using MK in major tournaments, he already had a couple months' worth of experience with the character.

..Unless you think any top player can just switch to Meta Knight and beat M2K in dittos after two tournaments.

 

[EpixAura]

I do believe that, after a month or two of practicing, many of the top players could indeed beat M2K in dittos. However, the fact that Ally beat M2K, who is considered the best MK, and who had only lost 1 or 2 MK dittos in his life, despite it being the most common MU, really says something.
Think: M2K was the best MK. MK was broken. Now Ally, who's probably even better, comes along, and defeats him pretty convincingly since they now have a fair fight. If MK was overpowered before, he's even more so now that the figurehead is even better. As Ally has dominated in every tourney that I've bothered to check, it seems to me that MK has been underestimated, which is saying something considering he's universally considered the number 1.
Ally needed to change to MK in order to win. When he does, he becomes borderline invincible. Kind of a big shift since he just switched to the character one spot above, don't you think? The fact that he switched in the first place is a sign Brawl is heading towards failure fast.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'm not going to argue over this ****, it's why I no longer mod this room. But MK isn't making the metagame stagnant. Look at the results for WHOBO and see how diverse the characters used are. 'nuff said.

 

[John12346]

Top 8: 4 Met-nites

2 Snakes, 1 of everything else.

 

[EpixAura]

Top 8: 4 Met-nites

Awww... you beat me to it. I have GOT to see Ally use Marth. I actually hadn't checked these results yet. Surprise, surprise, Ally's MK won. And don't get me started on the MKs in doubles bracket. If we are supposed to consider this some sort of improvement, I'm even more depressed than before. 17 players in Melee? This is slowly getting even worse...

 

[Zankoku]

If you want to argue about the state of Meta Knight, do so with someone who wants to. I was specifically pointing out this part:

switches to MK, and magically becomes the number 1.

which you proceeded to quickly revise in your next post anyway:

after a month or two of practicing

Yes, if a better player is using the same character as a lesser player and is practiced enough, he will win. No, switching to the same character does not magically qualify you into being there. Personally, I think if the best character in the game can be figured out by any top player who picks him to the point that he becomes new world champ in one or two months, that's not saying much toward overall game depth anyway.

 

[EpixAura]

Personally, I think if the best character in the game can be figured out by any top player who picks him to the point that he becomes new world champ in one or two months, that's not saying much toward overall game depth anyway.

I think that's the OP's point from the start. It's (partly) what I was trying to say from the start, before I caught up in the whole MK and Ally thing. What I meant is that MK is seriously holding the metagame back. Without MK, I think people would learn new tricks for more characters in more matchups. I do feel that Brawl may not quite be Melee in competitive value, but I feel that Brawl is more competitive than most give it credit for, and MK is preventing people from realizing that.

Oh, and about the use of the word "magically." I don't necessarily type as I go, but go back in the paragraph for editing instead. Looking back, it really didn't fit what I was trying to say, but I apparently overlooked it.

 

[Zankoku]

Let's celebrate our settling of differences through realization that it was just a misunderstanding.

Yayyyy.

 

[EpixAura]

Lol, happy ending. We all agree Brawl is flawed! Wait... no. That can't be right. JK. Well, it was fun.

Also, banana hammock.

 

[AllyKnight]

LOL okay.

MK is used for: dittos/Snake, D3.

Snake is used for : ICS, DK

ICS is used for : Pikachu, Olimar.

It's not because I switched to MK that I'm winning. Yes it helps me vs MKS but I am not sure if I would beat Mikehaze right now, I am not sure who I would use.

I'm just really smart lol.

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

I liked the part of this thread where the OP trolls all of ya and you fall right into the trap....

Also there is not enough complaining about MK on this, I like it when other people remind me why I main him......

Idk I guess I feel like soooooo many people act like just because you choose MK all of a sudden the opponent doesn't have a chance and will get *****, it's not true, you have to push start and choose a stage first.

Lol but for realz please tell me no one is really taking this thread seriously, sooooo one guy posts that he isn't going to be playing a video game because he can't get over the fact that some characters are better than others, and immediately people are saying that Brawl's metagame is dead, and basically implying that the only way to fix it is to ban MK cuz he's soooooooooo good. I'm pretty sure Ally would just spam nado and Dsmash against M2K in dittos and win cuz M2K obviously wouldn't know how to handle those totally broken moves right?

All I'm saying is people need to man up or go out and find a fighting game where all the characters look different but have the same moves..... sounds exhilarating....

 

[EpixAura]

Lol, knew it was a troll post from the start. I just like arguing. Too many essays in English class makes EpixAura an argumentative boy.
"Man up" you say? What will that accomplish? If you've ever taken a literature class, then you should have interpreted from the pages upon pages of depressing poetry that this will accomplish nothing. The concept of "manning up" is nothing more than a parody of the ideals of British Romanticism.

Lol, okay, now back to actual arguments, since this thread is back.
MK is broken. We know this for a fact. Small problem earlier, mostly ignored. Now top players are slowly converting to MK. Also a fact. MK's worst MU is MK. Yet another fact. So, how will people respond to the growing amount of MKs? With MK of course.
You know, this is probably why I always do so well in English class. Teehee.

 

[swordgard]

LOL okay.

MK is used for: dittos/Snake, D3.

Snake is used for : ICS, DK

ICS is used for : Pikachu, Olimar.

It's not because I switched to MK that I'm winning. Yes it helps me vs MKS but I am not sure if I would beat Mikehaze right now, I am not sure who I would use.

I'm just really smart lol.

Liar.

Snake is definitely not used for me : (.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Take it to the appropriate threads (like tier discussion or the match up chart).

Also this does seem trolly.