A new way to negate Snake's C4-recovery

[Z1GMA]

First off, I asked Earthbound360 through PM if this was known, but it wasn't.

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C4 PSI-Reflect​

Ok, so I found this way to screw things up badly for Snake during his C4-recovery.
The "wind" of PSI Magnet, if properly timed, can reverse Snake's Upwards Momentum after he's blown him self up with his C4.

Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk5demkWerI

The more % Snake has, the harder he will bounce/the faster he will fall.
Snake can Up+b again after the C4 PSI-Reflect if he wasn't sent down fast enough (not enough %).
But if he uses up+b again, he still won't be able to get on stage without another C4-recovery-attempt

At higher %'s it should be a garantueed Spike, sort of.

He can get around this by DI'ing towards the stage and walltech, but not if you're already there, under the stage

Pros:
* The timing is very easy.
* It's easier to hit with than most of Ness' aerials.
* Humiliating
* Sexy

Cons:
* Deals no Damage.

NOTE: This can be used Vs any character on Norfair and Brinstar as they pop up from the lava, but it isn't very effective.

 

[orange/xd]

That

is

weird.

Looks pretty situational.

 

[Z1GMA]

That

is

weird.

Looks pretty situational.

Just as situational as when Snake's actually C4-recovering.
It's not hard to pull off at all when the opportunity is given.

 

[CarVac]

Awesome. Interesting how it doesn't add to the momentum (by adjusting his trajectory) but by replacing it with a weak push. Looks like the timing/spacing window is huge, too.

Nice find.

 

[Scabe]

Wow great find man. I never knew how cool his Down B could be

Is there any other recovery moves that this would work on?

 

[Z1GMA]

Is there any other recovery moves that this would work on?

Well, Link's & T-Link's Bomb Jump.
And possibly a Bomb-omb-Jump-attempt by Peach >_>

But it isn't very practical Vs them.

 

[AvariceX]

It works similar to a cape on Dedede's up-b.

I imagine it would work on Sonic as well.

 

[Z1GMA]

It works similar to a cape on Dedede's up-b.

I imagine it would work on Sonic as well.

This is nothing like "Caping", I assure you.

 

[AvariceX]

This is nothing like "Caping", I assure you.

In friendlies once against Niko_K a long time ago I did this to his up-b (he was using D3) and it completely reversed the direction of his up-b and sent him away from the stage. I haven't actually tried to replicate it since though.

And I just tested my theory with Sonic and it doesn't work at all against Sonic's up-b... it has a bit of a push but nothing significant like with Snake.

 

[Z1GMA]

In friendlies once against Niko_K a long time ago I did this to his up-b (he was using D3) and it completely reversed the direction of his up-b and sent him away from the stage. I haven't actually tried to replicate it since though.

And I just tested my theory with Sonic and it doesn't work at all against Sonic's up-b... it has a bit of a push but nothing significant like with Snake.

That's because you have to be in the Tumble Animation, like when beeing knocked away by an attack.

 

[orange/xd]

Great find.

 

[Neon Ness]

Nice application. x_X

I've seen a Ness use this on their teammate before. The teammate got knocked away pretty fast, but Ness used PSI Magnet near them and it negated their momentum almost completely, saving them from going offstage and dying.

Funny how it works against Snake... Good find.

 

[Yink]

Very interesting way to use Magnet, great job, we appreciate it and I'm going to use it on my partner :D

 

[Eagleye893]

How did I never think about this?!?!?!?! Good job. I shouldve found this out... I guess the c4 recovery is nearly never used against ness...

Oh well. Good find... May come in handy in teams though... Ensures at least a stock...

It's less useful in singles because the snake will always recover high and make it back to the stage safely.... It's rare for your opponent to lose the jump before recovering....

You could theoretically pkt/pkflash the snake to force a smaller lift from the cypher and potentially trap him into this, but it's difficult...

 

[Levitas]

Is the defining trait that the victim is in tumble, or that they're being knocked away with unfriendly momentum? Or something else?

Goes to testing...

 

[Yink]

Is the defining trait that the victim is in tumble, or that they're being knocked away with unfriendly momentum? Or something else?

Goes to testing...

I'd try this on Shiek maybe...

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Windboxes cancel momentum from all other attacks... <3 Windboxes

Edit: Sheik actually uses this, it's one of her AT's: Vanish catching.

 

[Kewkky]

Now, if only Snake would be in a position where DIing on the stage's lip > wallteching was impossible, or DIing away from the stage and away from Ness was riskier than directly towards Ness...

Does Snake get pushed downwards even if he's doing an attack? Or does he HAVE to be tumbling for it to work? Cuz if Snake can attack and avoid it, then they can stall the c4 jump for a fraction longer and...

 

[Earthbound360]

EagleEye is right, he mentioned this stuff before, he just never found this (probably one of the, if not most practical singles) use for it before.

Z1GMA showed this to me first, and it really caught my attention. It has nothing to do with vertically rising recovery moves. It has all to do wih the PSI wind of PSIM. The wind halts all momentum (as EagleEye metoned in another thread) caused by an attack. Since Snake is bein launched by his attack, the principal applies, and momentum is stopped. Stopping momentum compleely during a recovery move is fatal.

Beautiful utilization of the PSIM wind momentum stopping Z1GMA. Great vid too.

 

[Levitas]

can I just mention how good a 10F spike is?

 

[Earthbound360]

can I just mention how much I didn't understand that post?

...what's a 10F?

PS Z1GMA, I like ur lock combo

 

[Levitas]

10F is ten frames is 1/6 of a second. It's fast.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You could have just said Frame 10 spike >.>

And yes, that is good.

 

[Earthbound360]

From startup to end may be a bit longer, but if you start it and then you're ready the whole time with the magnet up, then you're just considering ending lag which is good. Snake's C4 recovery is predictable enough for you to sit there in your magnet anyways.

 

[Valiant]

Oh this is really good, awesome job Z1GMA

 

[kennypu]

WOW interesting, I didn't know the PSI wind has properties to negate other's momentum o.O. this will make fighting snakes easier, and another reason to use ness in doubles :3

 

[TP]

At first I was gonna be like "The Ganons already do this with our wind move" but then I noticed who made the thread.

 

[xoxokev]

At first I was gonna be like "The Ganons already do this with our wind move" but then I noticed who made the thread.

ganon can do this with utilt???

edit: nvm i just saw the ganon utilt trix vid. nice.

 

[Kitamerby]

10F is ten frames is 1/6 of a second. It's fast.

...It's also 270 degrees in hex rofl.


AKA the exact angle of a meteor smash lol.

 

[FuPoo]

Aaaahahahaha oh WOW. I spat some of my coffee out watching this. This is just hilarious.

Eager to put this to use rising...

 

[M]

Actually knew about this for a bit. Helpful, but doesnt fix an already super-gay matchup. Airdodge, anyone?

 

[Z1GMA]

Does Snake get pushed downwards even if he's doing an attack? Or does he HAVE to be tumbling for it to work? Cuz if Snake can attack and avoid it, then they can stall the c4 jump for a fraction longer and...

The wind won't have the same affect if Snake manages to pull out an aerial. Sure, he'll get that little "nudge", but not the Semi Spike Effect like when in Tumble with Monmentum.
Aeiral = end of tumble.

However, He won't be able to pull out an aerial at mid/high %'s.

You could theoretically pkt/pkflash the snake to force a smaller lift from the cypher and potentially trap him into this, but it's difficult...

Yeah.
Also, When I play Ganondorf I mostly set this up by simply Edgehogging him. Snake will realize the hog and drop a C4.
It might be easier for Ganon to set up a edgehog, though, since our Ftilt puts his in the lower left/right corners of the stage.

Is the defining trait that the victim is in tumble, or that they're being knocked away with unfriendly momentum? Or something else?

Yes, Snake must have Launch Momentum. If he's just in a "falling tumble" it won't affect him the same way.
Powerful momentum in any direction is needed.

Actually knew about this for a bit. Helpful, but doesnt fix an already super-gay matchup. Airdodge, anyone?

Snake won't be able to Airdidge in time.
Maybe at very low %'s, resulting in that he won't get caught by the Wind Semi Spike, but then he'll just reset the situation since he was launched only like 3 feet up (due to low %).

At first I was gonna be like "The Ganons already do this with our wind move" but then I noticed who made the thread.

Haha...

PS Z1GMA, I like ur lock combo

lmao thx, it wasn't really Frame Perfect =p

 

[M]

And the situation where snake just gets as far away fro the stage horizontally (well a safe distance at least) before recovering?

Seriously, while this technique is really handy, it will be quite avoidable, especially once a snake bothers to find a way around it.

That said, has anyone tested it on other characters? Surely there'd be another situation. =S

 

[AvariceX]

I've been putting this to use already in my practice games; this is 100% legit and is very very very useful and good. I'd actually rather not draw too much attention to it though to keep the surprise factor against Snakes for a little while. The key here is that you are risking nothing. It is a safer more lenient way of footstooling.

 

[Z1GMA]

That said, has anyone tested it on other characters? Surely there'd be another situation. =S

Well, you can bounce any character between your down+b and the lava at Norfair+Brinstar, but it's isn't really that practical.
Looks coo', though.

 

[Bartolon]

Epic man! Good find. I knew that you could stop momentum with PSI magnet but never thinked about this XD

 

[Levitas]

it'd be funny to catch your teammate as they're sent to their death and you're recovering like this.

 

[Scabe]

Would the same thing happen with Lucas's Magnet?

 

[Levitas]

lucas has a real hitbox and no windbox, so no.

 

[Earthbound360]

No because Lucas' magnet has no wind pushback.

It shouldnt matter to you anyways. Lucas' magnet is leagues better than Ness'.