Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[S.F.L.R_9]

I guess...but I don't see the benefit of Squall in this matchup. His combos seem too fast to escape with Squall (like the hoo hah)

 

[meleebrawler]

I guess...but I don't see the benefit of Squall in this matchup. His combos seem too fast to escape with Squall (like the hoo hah)

If Squall's wind is fast enough to escape multi-hit jabs, then I think it has a reasonable chance of escaping
pika juggles.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

If Squall's wind is fast enough to escape multi-hit jabs, then I think it has a reasonable chance of escaping
pika juggles.

Squall can escape some jabs because they don't have as much hitstun as one of Pikachu's combo throws or aerials would. I'll test this later

 

[Macchiato]

But Pikachu's uair has low hitstun

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

But Pikachu's uair has low hitstun

Same with his DThrow too actually.

 

[Seki_]

I feel like people are only rating Pikachu so high because there's so few players of him. Noone knows what a lot of good 'Chus will do, so they're unpredictable as all get out. That said, there are one or two chus that go to tournies (Kenny and Esam) but even then you see them losing to smart players because Pikachu's main advantage is his surprise factor. He's basically Sheik that doesn't have incredible combo game. He's certainly not a bad character, top 20 easily, but I don't think he deserves to be sitting as high as he is on tier lists.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I feel like people are only rating Pikachu so high because there's so few players of him. Noone knows what a lot of good 'Chus will do, so they're unpredictable as all get out. That said, there are one or two chus that go to tournies (Kenny and Esam) but even then you see them losing to smart players because Pikachu's main advantage is his surprise factor. He's basically Sheik that doesn't have incredible combo game. He's certainly not a bad character, top 20 easily, but I don't think he deserves to be sitting as high as he is on tier lists.

Totally agree, he still inherits some problems such as lack of range in his attacks, very low damaging attacks, few kill moves, and now, some of his ground attacks(especially smashes) have gotten more lag to them.
He realise heavily on his speed, edge guard, and as you mentioned surprise factors.
On videos of tournaments, I see chus generally QA into the player.
Its fast, but eventually becomes predictable and like you said again, smart players can counter or avoid it.

 

[Deleted member]

How should I handle Little Mac's that dash attack then frequently roll afterwards? And Little Mac in-general as well as Sonic.

Any help appreciated.

 

[meleebrawler]

How should I handle Little Mac's that dash attack then frequently roll afterwards? And Little Mac in-general as well as Sonic.

Any help appreciated.

If they space the dash attack badly you can either or nayru's if you're quick, otherwise analyse
their rolling habits and preemptively chase them.

I'd be more worried about dash attack to jab, though.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd be more worried about dash attack to jab, though.

Actually, I have to worry about what I suggested because I haven't found a way to counteract it effectively due to the fast rolling. I can't simply worry about something else more at the current moment since that is effective against me at the moment so, to me, it's still equally as important until I discover a way around it.

If they space the dash attack badly you can either or nayru's if you're quick, otherwise analyse
their rolling habits and preemptively chase them.

Little Mac is pretty fast with his dash attack, does Zelda have the means to out dash attack him? and I notice due to Little Mac's speed, he can go back then come right at Zelda extremely quick not giving me a lot of room to catch up with him. Currently at the moment I attempted shielding then shield-grab, but he's far too swift for that to work.

 

[meleebrawler]

Actually, I have to worry about what I suggested because I haven't found a way to counteract it effectively due to the fast rolling. I can't simply worry about something else more at the current moment since that is effective against me at the moment so, to me, it's still equally as important until I discover a way around it.




Little Mac is pretty fast with his dash attack, does Zelda have the means to out dash attack him? and I notice due to Little Mac's speed, he can go back then come right at Zelda extremely quick not giving me a lot of room to catch up with him. Currently at the moment I attempted shielding then shield-grab, but he's far too swift for that to work.

All I know is that dash attack is one of the few ground attacks that Mac has which is punishable on shield,
even if the window is not that big. I don't know if you're playing online with lag, but if your reflexes are good
you should be able to punish a shielded dash attack with something. I say to be careful of his jab afterwards
because it will hit you if you attempt to punish too late.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

All I know is that dash attack is one of the few ground attacks that Mac has which is punishable on shield,
even if the window is not that big. I don't know if you're playing online with lag, but if your reflexes are good
you should be able to punish a shielded dash attack with something. I say to be careful of his jab afterwards
because it will hit you if you attempt to punish too late.

You could space with jabs and Fsmash, but don't let him bait you.
This is a tough MU as Zelda's worst MUs tend to be fast characters, and Mac has need to no laggy ground attacks.

 

[LRodC]

I fought a very good Shulk player earlier today and seemed to have a very hard time with Zelda. He started out the match with the speed art and there wasn't much I could do back except try and dodge his incredibly ranged attacks and his now quicker short hopped aerials. Then he easily switched to Smash and got easy KOs on me over time. He outranges us on the ground and in the air and his slow frame data isn't as big of a deal when we're pretty slow attacking ourselves. And this guy was smart to not use the frame heavy moves like down smash so that I couldn't just take advantage and elevator him. He's a character that recovers low and can surprisingly have some dangerous off stage presence, so that makes things even tougher. I'm not sure if it's my inexperience with the matchup or just fighting good Shulks in general, but for some reason this matchup just feels heavily advantaged to Shulk right now to me. Is there anything we can do against him?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

shulk I feel is a disadvantage if you are behind because then Shulk has no need to approach and can sit in mid range where any aggression from Zelda can be Visioned. But as long as you keep close in percent and fight by poking Shulk first (before his attacks come out) and being immaculate at countering his laggier moves the match up isn't so bad. You just have to respect Shulks range and don't be afraid of his Monado Arts. Shulls recovery is like Marcina it is gimpable , even a weak Dins can little Mac Shulk is you caught his second jump or he ended up offstage w/o his jump. He's only scary if he aggressively jumps after you and your on defense which means you need to teleport ASAP or go to the max low and come back to the ledge from there, Shulk can only go so low, even with Jump. I think its a slight disadvantage for Zelda but once your used to him its not so bad

oh btw Girls do we want to start Sheik today or keep free discussion going for the rest of the day and switch to the next matchup tomorrow?

 

[Macchiato]

oh btw Girls do we want to start Sheik today or keep free discussion going for the rest of the day and switch to the next matchup tomorrow?

Let's start sheik tomorrow.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I see I've been edited, well played BJ...

so how do you defeat charizard spamming Nair? It makes me cry, especially in lag where its harder to block flare blitz :v

 

[Macchiato]

I see I've been edited, well played BJ...

so how do you defeat charizard spamming Nair? It makes me cry, especially in lag where its harder to block flare blitz :v

Wait and be patient. Bait him. It's not safe on shield

 

[LRodC]

Charizard should be simple. It's easier to land your sweetspots on him and bait him on shield and punish. I see that matchup in Zelda's favor easily as long as you watch out for his smashes and early kill moves. However I have not fought many Charizards so this is all speculation by me.

I'll talk about Sheik when we discuss her.

 

[-Sensei-]

Anyone have any Fox experience? I think the matchup is even because Zelda destroys him off stage but he can use his speed to punish us on stage. Any thoughts?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I feel Fox runs over Zelda, he can't camp her like he used to, but he's still really fast and can kill Zelda just as early as she can kill. The only Thing Zelda does have is Fox lacks disjoints so she overall out reaches him but it comes down to can you place hitboxes out before he rushes you. Space zoo is annoying.

 

[LRodC]

I don't think it's that bad, but I don't think it's positive either, unlike Falco. Watch for reckless phantom usage and having Nayru's be baited. Also try not to ever be above Fox since he has, while nerfed from Brawl, excellent KOing power from above with u-air and u-smash. You can punish reckless laser usage and camping with Farore's or likely a Din's Flare if you're using customs. I say 6:4 or 65:35 in Fox's favor.

When we do Fox, I'll save this post and submit this when we get there.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

so its time for our second doubles match, Sheik. I think in a perfect world we really don't stand a chance against Sheik. She never stops attacking and can camp, I'd rather face the Diddy army than Sheik. Outside of usmash, bouncing fish, and near the ledge she really can't kill too well but you end up at 120% like she's Luigi but unable to kill...help

 

[PUK]

Spam farore and hope your opponent doesn't know how to shaq?

 

[Seki_]

Sheik depends on the player. If it's the kind of Sheik player that will constantly go for f-air gimps and grabs, we have some options that can break us out of combos. On the other hand, if they're the kind of Sheik who hits a few good aerials, then camps the rest of the game and fishes for Bouncing Shaq we don't stand a chance. Either way this isn't the best MU for Zelda 65-35 for Sheik at best, at worst 75-25.

 

[BJN39]

Okay, just a quick word test: Bouncing Fish, Shield, Wavedash, Melee

Edit: Huh, I guess there aren't word replacements? Could've sworn there were some odd "Shaq"s going around...

I'll get the sheiks soon, as well as maybe mention a few thoughts I had on the MU. I hope people don't blow this one out of proportion, :/ it really doesn't seem that bad of a MU.

 

[PUK]

Now my question is: does back air/ forward air hit before bouncing fish, or later, or exactly at the same time? Because transcendant moves sometimes do things we can't really understand.

 

[Macchiato]

Sheik is that bad of a match up. It's more than managable. She does have a better neutral game but we outranges her. We also have Nayrus love to break pressure. Due to us being tall and floaty. I don't think we're forced to approach this match up. Needles are really underwhelming. Sheik does have trouble killing, and there's a good chance that we'll get lots of rage. We can kill her as early as 30% with the elevator with rage. Our Fsmash also outranges all of his moves. At high percents, DI for his dthrow. That leaves his vanish and bair left which are hard to land. In edgeguarding, we can recover from the side of ledge because he can bouncing fish. Also correct me if I'm wrong but dtilt hits him at the ledge. We can take advantage of it. For stages, I'd say battlefield, halberd, or town and city. I think we like platforms more than him, it gives him an option but it helps us much more. With customs we get flare to catch up with him and pace him. Strike is always better. He gets penetrating needles which kill shields a and gravity need which help set up kills but also know that it's hard to land. I'd say it still makes it the same. My score is 45-55 benefiting sheik

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Sheik is that bad of a match up. It's more than managable. She does have a better neutral game but we outranges her. We also have Nayrus love to break pressure. Due to us being tall and floaty. I don't think we're forced to approach this match up. Needles are really underwhelming. Sheik does have trouble killing, and there's a good chance that we'll get lots of rage. We can kill her as early as 30% with the elevator with rage. Our Fsmash also outranges all of his moves. At high percents, DI for his dthrow. That leaves his vanish and bair left which are hard to land. In edgeguarding, we can recover from the side of ledge because he can bouncing fish. Also correct me if I'm wrong but dtilt hits him at the ledge. We can take advantage of it. For stages, I'd say battlefield, halberd, or town and city. I think we like platforms more than him, it gives him an option but it helps us much more. With customs we get flare to catch up with him and pace him. Strike is always better. He gets penetrating needles which kill shields a and gravity need which help set up kills but also know that it's hard to land. I'd say it still makes it the same. My score is 45-55 benefiting sheik

You do realise shiek is female?

 

[Macchiato]

You do realise shiek is female?

Used both her and him

 

[PUK]

Don't like halberd, it makes shiek's up air more dangerous. But walk of are more useful to us: so delfino and (when the TO will get some creativness) skyloft.
Also, what DI are good? She can Dthrow or Fthrow. I think DI up is the best but not sure.

 

[-Sensei-]

Also, what DI are good? She can Dthrow or Fthrow. I think DI up is the best but not sure.

DI up and away from Sheik to avoid the foward air combos.

Also, try to avoid platforms at all costs, because they give Sheik more followups. I always ban Battlefield and Lylat (Sheik's best stage IMO). Aggresive Sheik players are easier to read, and make the matchup manageable. Passive Sheiks will destroy Zelda.

 

[PUK]

Oh and you can punish BF recovery, there is like 25 30 frame of recovery time after hitbox diseaperance. I din's fired a sheik once because of that.

 

[Zylach]

Sheik is definitely one of Zelda's worst MUs. Sheik can juggle her for days with fairs after just one grab. Sheik can camp with needles and reflecting them doesn't hurt her most of the time since they don't go far enough to cover the distance to us and then back to her. Sheik has no lag on anything that we can punish which we need in order to do basically anything (Mostly for killing).

What Zelda does have is her kill potential compared to Sheik. Sheik has a hard time killing anyone and she should be worried when she racks up damage on Zelda because rage + Zelda is scary allowing us to kill her as early as 30% with the elevator so long as we are able to land it that is. Lkicks will kill Sheik at 80% and earlier with rage. The problem is actually landing those kill shots and even racking up damage in order to get Sheik to those percents because she is a wall of hitboxes that is really difficult to pass.

35:65

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

So what we should do best is space with Fsmash and Utilt?
Because yea she has so much speed and little lag in general.

 

[Zylach]

So what we should do best is space with Fsmash and Utilt?
Because yea she has so much speed and little lag in general.

Trying to outspace her is all we can do. If she gets in, we're in a load of trouble.

 

[LRodC]

Gonna go with 7-3 Sheik. I don't see a ton of advantages Zelda has here and a good Sheik player is insane and will not allow you to even land any hits on her. Like others said, we can use Nayru's to escape pressure and kill her fairly early with rage since she's good at racking damage but not killing, but how do we land killing blows when most of our kill moves are either laggy or risky? Seriously, good luck trying to find a moment or hard read to land the elevator on one of the least laggy characters in the game. And don't even get me started on off-stage. I recommend Squall for this matchup personally, along with Din's Flare and Phantom Strike.

I think the best we can do is outspace her and try our hardest to punish her. I sincerely hope that both her and Diddy get hit with the nerf bat extremely hard (like, Greninja hard) in 1.0.6 since fighting Sheik is absolutely not fun whatsoever for any character and would be the undisputed best if Diddy lacked the hoo-hah. (And of course let's hope for some buffs for the out of costume Sheik if you know what I mean)

 

[Macchiato]

 

[BJN39]

Well played Macchiato

Though, I wouldn't bet that Nietono knew the MU that well at the time. Still, though.

Considering he actually HAS played good player(s) in the MU, I'm just gonna call @Nairo if he has anything to bring up on the MU.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

So at close r ange use our fastest hitting attacks and at mid range our more laggier attacks?
You know, to keep her away until they get too careless and aggressive?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Nairu made great reads and punishes on Nientono the first time they fought, but in grand finals Nientono also played the matchup alot safer than the first video. A patient Sheik holds alot more dominance than she they go all wild and crazy cause Zeldas slow. It honestly comes down to if Zelda can land a kill first before she loses Rage cause all three fights Nairu was between 70-100+ before Sheik even got as close in damage mostly.