Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[Jiggly]

I haven't faced any good zelda's tbh, but on paper and according to puff's in skype that I've talked to who have zelda experience, it seems to bee in puff's favor. We can fall out of her smash attacks, nothing new, although it is easiest for us due to small hitbox and light weight. Zelda's small collection of combos work well at low percents, but not at 40% and after. Lightning kick is amazing, and should always be used to punish a missed rest, due to her smashes being unreliable. Zelda also has the issue of being one of the easiest characters for puff to hit her 0 to death on, so don't let any puffs be FFUairing or Utilting you at low percents Also, I feel like we can approach zelda very well, especially with the new shield stun mechanics making Bair safe on shield now. And yes, pound is extremely dangerous. Puffs will often jab to try to condition you to shield so they can get a pound shield break later.

That's all I can give, can't give the most reliable MU ratio, but I would see it in puff's favor.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I haven't faced any good zelda's tbh, but on paper and according to puff's in skype that I've talked to who have zelda experience, it seems to bee in puff's favor. We can fall out of her smash attacks, nothing new, although it is easiest for us due to small hitbox and light weight. Zelda's small collection of combos work well at low percents, but not at 40% and after. Lightning kick is amazing, and should always be used to punish a missed rest, due to her smashes being unreliable. Zelda also has the issue of being one of the easiest characters for puff to hit her 0 to death on, so don't let any puffs be FFUairing or Utilting you at low percents Also, I feel like we can approach zelda very well, especially with the new shield stun mechanics making Bair safe on shield now. And yes, pound is extremely dangerous. Puffs will often jab to try to condition you to shield so they can get a pound shield break later.

That's all I can give, can't give the most reliable MU ratio, but I would see it in puff's favor.

Usmash randomly Jiggly will fall out of but Jiggly can't escape Fsmash anymore. it actually makes it where if Jiggly misses a Rest we now have an easier guaranteed punish.

Zelda's jab can block Jigglys approaches so Jiggly still has to bait Zelda to get in if she's dedicated on trying to Jab to keep Jiggly out when he gets close.

 

[Macchiato]

I think we solidly beat . On neutral, our nair is actually a great tool to beat out her aerials. If we trade with our sweetspot fair/bair, we will benefit from the trade. will beat us in the aerial game and we bother us airborne. On the ground wins due to more range, speed, and disjoints. We can combo her, but the percents are much more strict than with other characters. Any bad punishable move like a bad din's or phantom will get a rest off. We can also use the Elevator which kills as early as rest so she must be cautious on spacing and can't throw out bad moves on shield. Generally, we have a advantage on killing. Our Uair is great at killing and getting her in the air. Usmash is very good at being an anti-air and kills early as well. Lightning Kicks can be used, but can only really be landed by aerial trades or if missed a rest. really just has bair and rest. Bair is safe but is punishable on whiff and hard to hit. Rest is kinda self explainable. Edgeguarding game is something both are great at. can mess with the low jumps that contains. We can nair, footstool, dair, etc. is forced to recover on to the stage or from above. She can also hold down to hit . 's nair is great at covering the 2frame thing and limiting a recovery option is something good.

imo
60:40

 

[drakeirving]

Zelda's multihit nair and disjointed upair generally beat Puff's aerials on trade, but any Puff will uh just not trade. Zelda's air mobility is poop and it really isn't difficult to weave Zelda out of an air game. The best aerial situation for Zelda is Puff landing from above and creating a safe airdodge bait situation. Zylach said it best when describing that Puff wins in the air and that Zelda should stick to her solid anti-air game. Underhill is also very correct that Zelda's ledgeguarding game (not offstage) is very useful against Jiggs. Even outside of making the ledge dangerous, a spaced Usmash covers many of Jiggs' getup options.

Mainly Jiggs will be looking to take advantage of your poor frame data to juggle from one connected aerial and punish Zelda's endlag. Additionally, Zelda's shield isn't really that safe, since Puff's aerials have gotten slightly safer with 1.1.1 and Pound just as much. Unlike some other characters, Zelda is slow enough that she can't just take off and recharge her shield very easily, and without shield Zelda has to rely on jab, dtilt and Nayru to play keepaway. For this, JigglyZelda is also right in that Puff intends to dance around and get in an opening. Nayru is also susceptible to roll in Rest with proper spacing so uh watch out for that.

I have a bit of experience with the Zelda matchup, but up until this point it's either been the case where I trounce them or am trounced, depending on player [I also watch Cosmo play Zelda extensively and he's no slouch cough]. At no point have I seen play from either side that actually is influenced mainly by the matchup's qualities; just experience and skill. For that reason I would say this matchup is essentially even.

 

[Zylach]

Z Zander2Green Help us with Lucario!

 

[Zander2Green]

Zylach I'll try

Low % (0-30) Lucario:

Zelda is a relatively difficult matchup for Lucario in the sense that one of Zelda's main tools in neutral and for gtfo either come out faster (things like d-tilt, d-smash, sh nair, grab) or are intangible/reflect (nayru's love) than Lucario's neutral tools. In this matchup, Lucario is also forced to approach Zelda in sheild due to reflection, but Lucario's approach options consist of cute footsies like empty hope, b-reverse or wavebounce Aura Sphere, shff nair, fair bait>dair/nair/aurasphere charge or simple dash footsies into grabs or dash attacks.

Zelda either beats these or outranges them with nayru's love if the Lucario chooses to go aggressively into Zelda with these options except for maybe fair>dair/aura sphere charge, in which case, it's best to fully sheild those or fox trot backwards and outspace these options, losing some positioning, but retaining your life. Keep in mind, I am talking about low percent lucario. Often times, holding shield at these low percents and waiting to see what lucario is going to do, especially if he's short hop happy is good and valuable for Zelda. A pure ground lucario who likes using fox trot and grounded b-reverse aura spheres is a bit more tricky here considering how shield pressure changed. If this is happening, Zelda can try to run away djinns (pretty bad), predict Lucario's movement and hit it with an f-tilt, d-tilt, f-smash, up-b, anything that can either suddenly appear or out space Lucario, or hold shield. At these percents, being grabbed by Lucario isn't too bad for Zelda as he can't nair>re-grab due to your floatyness, so he can either fair>fair> or upair.

Medium % (30-70) Lucario:

You can treat this like low % Lucario, but with less combo game possible. Reversed Aura spheres are a big problem here from neutral still, but by now, Lucario won't be able to fair combo as easily and it works to just get some meager %. In these percents you can still d-throw> DI read nair or up air, which if hitting around 60-70, is very dangerous for Lucario. Unless you're around 90%, Lucario shouldn't be able to kill you with force palm yet.

Saiyan (70+%)

Normally Mega Lucario is a problem for a lot of characters, but because Nayru's love is intangible during force palm, grab, and reflects Aura sphere, it's not as bad for Zelda as other characters. Her weight and floatinyess make up throw> up air, hard to land if you are equal in percent. This is the point where Lucario is going to be hard baiting you for those gtfo options with either shield or dash, or b-reverse movements. If you used nayru's love early on for gtfo, be prepared to change your game, because it can and will be forcepalmed if he dash shields into you and you will die. If you were afraid of up-throw>up air, and tried to air dodge, back air reads on the air-dodge will kill you. Zelda's saving grace at these percents are that her d-throw combos are now air dodge traps. It's pretty much like Sheik, where you must jump or the up>air will hit. Zylach has killed me in this range before. Also, be wary of Lucario's counter as it scales with aura, not damage dealt/knockback. It starts killing around here.

Off Stage

RIP Lucario. We like shooting aura spheres or force palms to get you off guarding the ledge, but you have Love powers spinning around to protect you. If Lucario is recovering low, Jump, wait, dair. Even the weak hit, puts lucario in the positiong to recover low again and Luca has this weird thing where if he's too far from the edge during ExtremeSpeed, he literally won't grab it. It doesn'thappen from below often, but if you're threating the straight up option, he may have to back off. Horizontal recovery is easy to stuff with nair, or if you're brave, dair, bair or fair. Extremespeed's hitbox comes after Lucario's body, so don't be afraid as long as you're throwing a hitbox out there. As for what Lucario can do to you....2 frame hit with dair or aura sphere. d-tilt or d-smasht he ledge during the 2 frames. Reflectors hurt lucario's off-stage game a lot. Be wary of getting up from the ledge if Luca is charging an aura sphere. If u get trapped by it in shield, shield sdi into the stage, then back to the ledge to escape. If i try normal get-up or jumping off ledge, you risk getting JC up-smashed or baired. If you roll in, you get the aura sphere. All of these can kill. What's best is to drop down, up air through the stage and regrab after Lucario has a full charged aura sphere. If it's not fully charged, he can just go back to charging it again on the ledge. If it's charged, he must throw it, though he can of course throw it at you as you regrab the ledge

Key to the matchup

Don't be scared of aura. Lucario may be able to kill you at 30 with an f-smash, up smash, aura trap up smash, force palm, etc once he's at Super Saiyan % (120+), but the problem is that he must land those things. Most common to hit you are aura charge>up smash or force palm reads/mix-ups. To counter Lucario's aura, it's important to understand how Lucario is moving at earlier percents. If they are playing a no-force palm-allowed game, look out at high percents for the force palm. If you're getting caught by aura sphere charges, remember to hold shield, don't try to drop it, and shield sdi out. Shield is your friend. Spot dodging is not. Unless you're 100% confident in spot dodging, it's generally going to be fairly bad for Zelda as her options are too slow to take advantage of Lucario afterwards or you'll get hit anyway by attacks. Spot dodging normal grabs is sorta ok, but only if you can get an optimal punish off of it.

Also, Elevator is super risk. Only do it once per set, once per game if you must. Else you'll meet down-smash and die.
I'd give this matchup a 50-50 tbh. Lucario has a lot of trouble vs characters with strong defenses. We have to bait out options and we can't just overrun you then kill you with low percent on our side. I don't give Zelda advantage because, well Aura, and you can't rush down us like Fox can, and you don't absolutely shut us down like Ness, but Lucario can't take too much advantage over Zelda either. It's a very frustrating match-up on both ends.

Anyway, this is how I feel on the matchup and how I've seen it played/played it in the past. Also
T&C, Lylat, Delfino=Zelda advantage
Battlefield, Dreamland, SV=Luca advantage
FD, Duck Hunt = Neutral imo
All other stages aren't played. Lucario bans Delfino and Halberd if legal. You ban BF and SV. You have low ceiling advantage, but I like BF and DL for platform movement around you.

Edit: Zylach, I didn't even read your post on the MU. Glad we both agree it's frustrating and 50-50.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Seeing as next on the list is Greninja, Rob, and Ness I'm just going to 4x it up and add Lucas in here to make thus weeks discussion look less jank? be prapared for large discussion gurls. and for visitors please for my sakes note which character you are talking about with an icon if you please


really not enough exp to say much from my end. most Greninja's i have fought have either been really bad or its been so laggy i might as well put my controller down.


IDEK. I feel like Rob is very annoying but winnable. He camps is out and due to his big Rosalind like aerials he can be hard to close in on and he's heavy so he takes a while to die because his recovery is hard to gimp due to his Uair.

On the plus side though Rob is a big target so he's not hard to hit and as long as your wary of being grabbed at high percents he can have a little difficulty landing the killing blow.

Somebody make it stop. Ness everything is frustrating. Even though we can reflect pkfire as long as ness doesn't auto run in he still has advantage if we get caught in the move cause he can wait out the reflect . Fair is an oppressive walling out move and an annoying move for approaching Ness players. He's hard to hit, juggles Zelda and gimping is hard unless your already there when he's offstage.

Ness, Zelda just has to respect those hitboxes and wait for opportunities. Zelda does enough damage on single hits and combos that she can keep up in the damage department and just kinda has to pick and choose her battles. Fair aside she can punish or fight most of his other aerials and and blocked Or expected PKT/2 is like a free elevator or Ferraris wind situation.

Where Ness is like Peach and can kinda do w/e Lucas is the Zelda. the absolute defensive fortress that makes Zelda wish downB was still Shiek. If Lucas gets the lead Zair and Lucas options after Zair are just frustrating. Not to mention Lucas great damage output and his cqc is fast, I'd rather fight Ness.

Like Ness you kinda just gotta pick and choose your battles and try your best to stay close cause Lucas can Wii Fit you and run for days if he gets the lead .

 

[BJN39]

Zelda's air mobility is poop.

This is actually not true. It's probably assumed by most when all they hear is "Zelda has no mobility," but Zelda's air speed is actually alright. Of course nothing Like Jigg's and not like, top 15, but it's actually decent.

Just a drive by j/s.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

This is actually not true. It's probably assumed by most when all they hear is "Zelda has no mobility," but Zelda's air speed is actually alright. Of course nothing Like Jigg's and not like, top 15, but it's actually decent.

Just a drive by j/s.

I'm starting to think that that's why people say that. Zeldas air speed is great, I'd say above average as I don't know the actual number relative to the cast but her air control mobility is average so people dont think about the fact that she can jump to the other side of FD 2x faster than she can run cause she can't air wiggle like jigglypuff.

 

[FullMoon]

Just pointing out that if this is in character select screen order, you kinda skipped Greninja lol

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Just pointing out that if this is in character select screen order, you kinda skipped Greninja lol

i didn't skip Greninja, i only wanted to wait till you posted to announce Greninja so you can invite the other Greninja's over for friendly discussion

 

[FullMoon]

i didn't skip Greninja, i only wanted to wait till you posted to announce Greninja so you can invite the other Greninja's over for friendly discussion

Clever.

Honestly I think out of the others I probably have the most Zelda experience (thanks to hanging in the social with you gorls) and I have to say, this patch was pretty bad for Zelda in this MU.

Before, Greninja had to space N-Air well on Zelda's shield because otherwise OoS Elevator would kill him since N-Air was -8 on shield and FW is frame 7.

Now though? N-Air is -4, so if you try to elevator us OoS it's going to get shielded and you'll be punished, Zelda literally can't do anything to us once we hit her shield anymore so we can freely pressure you with F-Air and N-Air now.

Add to that Greninja's good damage racking, good kill power plus a high number of kill setups, great projectile, much better mobility and small size making it hard to hit LKs and stuff... It's sounding pretty bad for Zelda now.

And to put the cherry on top of that, Greninja is one of the only characters that can mess with Zelda's recovery, like so.

I think this is a pretty clear advantage for Greninja, I will say 40:60 (Greninja's favor) but it could honestly be worse. You gorls still boast a pretty high kill power with things like FW (which if we get spammy with shurikens can easily kills us), LKs and even your smashes, but Greninja's mobility and newfound safety will make it hard for the princess to get a good hit without a read. We don't really have much to fear from you offstage either outside of potentially D-Air.

That's just my analysis anyway, make of it what you will.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Clever.

Honestly I think out of the others I probably have the most Zelda experience (thanks to hanging in the social with you gorls) and I have to say, this patch was pretty bad for Zelda in this MU.

Before, Greninja had to space N-Air well on Zelda's shield because otherwise OoS Elevator would kill him since N-Air was -8 on shield and FW is frame 7.

Now though? N-Air is -4, so if you try to elevator us OoS it's going to get shielded and you'll be punished, Zelda literally can't do anything to us once we hit her shield anymore so we can freely pressure you with F-Air and N-Air now.

is Greninja's Nair disjointed? can we Utilt it?

 

[FullMoon]

is Greninja's Nair disjointed? can we Utilt it?

The water is disjointed, yes, Up-Tilt might trade with it (or if you reacted quickly enough you might be able to hit us before our hitbox comes out) but it's going to be hard to Up-Tilt him on reaction considering yours is frame 7. I suppose it can work but it's probably not going to be very reliable.

 

[Zylach]

I'll just give really quick analyses of these MU's since there are so many and I don't wanna make the mother of all posts.

Greninja: Painful MU, his shurikens allow him to camp us out if necessary and a hit confirm from one is almost a guaranteed dash grab>uthrow>uair. Zelda can't be in the air because Greninja's usmash is stupidly disjointed and his dashing usmash means he can have that somewhat long-lasting hitbox out while moving a fair distance comparatively speaking. Zelda has a ton of trouble spacing Greninja out since he has stuff like fair and shurikens to stop us from challenging him with our own disjoints and charging phantom as a spacing tool is impossible because of shurikens. I hate this MU.

40:60

ROB: Horrible MU. ROB's nair is unpunishable and leads into more unpunishable moves like jab and dtilt. His fair outspaces our everything. Lasers + gyro means we'll be getting camped until the end of time. Beep Boop is a thing. Uair lasts for days and we can't challenge it with our dair meaning offstage spikes are tricky as well since he can just cover himself with uair. Our only advantage is here is that he's big and heavy with no quick way to get us off of him if we ever get in so he's susceptible to our combos. Also, a gyro on the ledge means we're never getting up as ROB can have regular getup covered, roll covered, jump covered, and attack covered. GG.

40:60 (Borderline 35:65)

Ness: Another unpunishable character. He can land safely with any of his aerials and we can't do anything about it. Plus, his fair outranges our everything, same with his DA. He has bthrow which kills us earlier than most of the cast. Luckily, we don't have to worrry about PK fire too much. Don't challenge him offstage unless your timing is perfect. He'll save his jump to see if we go off against him and rise with a fair/uair/nair if we don't which is tricky to challenge and punish.

40:60

Lucas: We have a lot of trouble getting in on Lucas but not nearly to the level of ROB. We have to be careful with our followups because his aerials can come out pretty quickly to interrupt us. Don't let him grab you otherwise it's guaranteed that you take a ton of damage or die (stage dependent though on the killing part). Lucas is even trickier to challenge offstage thanks to his tether recovery. More manageable than his counterpart but not easy.

50:50

 

[Patriot Duck]

Hey Zelda boards. Here are my thoughts. 45:55

Lucas can pretty easily wall Zelda out. Short hop PK Fire is safe on reflect after a certain distance because Lucas will land and the reflected bolt will soar right over his head. His zair also poses problems for Zelda. Neither of Zelda's projectiles pose any real problem for Lucas, so he dictates the pace of the game.

The Lucas player is at liberty to play pretty aggressively if he so chooses, as long as he keeps it calculated. Lucas can use fair and bair as quick, high damage pokes, as they are safe on shield. I'm also 90% sure cross-up nair and spaced dash attack are safe on shield as well. Zelda has to challenge Lucas's disjoints and hope she wins.

Zelda isn't completely out of the game, though. Reckless aggression is what she wants, and if Lucas makes a mistake, which is actually pretty easy, he'll get punished pretty hard. Zelda also boasts that nigh ungimpable recovery, giving her more chances to make comebacks.

Overall, as long as Lucas plays on point with reserved aggression, he won't lose the match-up.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Lucas has a clear advantage in close range, given his frame data. Zelda's fastest move is her frame 5 down tilt (and down smash), but Lucas out speeds her with his frame 2 jab, frame 3 down tilt, and frame 4 up tilt.

 

[PKBeam]

60:40
Ness is not good for Zelda. She has few tools, if any, to stop his zoning. It's also somewhat easier for Ness to grab Zelda and she's light so she dies earlier from Bthrow. If Ness doesn't space properly and chooses wrong options then Zelda can really mess him up for a bit. Zelda doesn't really have any natural advantages (worth nothing that Nayru's makes Zelda hard to grab out of PKF) so winning is dependent on your outplaying your opponent.

Ness just edges out Zelda in most situations (offstage excepted) and thus he has a solid advantage over her.

55:45 (absolute maximum 60:40)
Zair and PKF are difficult for Zelda to get around. Outside of a hard read with Up-B, she can't challenge either. This problem is exacerbated if Lucas is holding on to a decent lead. When in close quarters Zelda has the potential to really capitalise on a mistake but at the same time she must be careful herself as to not get hit by a setup move (Grab, Nair, Dair). She doesn't really have an answer to a properly spaced Dair (and to some extent, Fair).

When it comes to killing Zelda holds her own with large, extended hitboxes that have strong KO power and really punishing LKs. But again, any sizeable mistake beyond 90% means death for her and I think Usmash OoS will take a stock off of a misspaced LK.

In conclusion, Zelda relies largely on reads and mistakes to get her damage in but she capitalises hard enough to keep it around 55:45.

 

[Robert Lee]

Any tips how to fight mewtwo? Kinda find it tough to fight him considering his fast tilt attacks and to be able to space and outrange zelda's attacks.

 

[Zylach]

Any tips how to fight mewtwo? Kinda find it tough to fight him considering his fast tilt attacks and to be able to space and outrange zelda's attacks.

Mewtwo's actually pretty tough because he outranges Zelda pretty badly. I actually like throwing out phantom 1 against him as I'm standing just outside of his range because Mewtwo players will almost always believe that they can outrange Zelda. That being said, Mewtwo's tail is not a disjoint so we can hit his tail instead of his body as he's trying to space. Again, just stay right outside of his range and attack his tail instead of him. Fsmash and Nayru's Love can catch his quick dtilt especially because Mewtwo leans forward a bit at the end of the dtilt animation so, if you miss the tail, you might be able to get away with hitting his face.

The weird thing about this MU is that both characters have reflectors and projectiles that can kill so neither should be throwing out their respective fully charged projectiles unless they're certain those projectiles will hit. In the case of shadow ball, Zelda can reflect it back at Mewtwo who can reflect it back but, most of the time, Nayru's Love will still be out when the shadow ball comes back, leading to Mewtwo getting hit by a triple reflected shadow ball which will usually kill him.

You should never be afraid to challenge him in the air either as his aerial game isn't amazing. If he's facing away from you, however, don't try to challenge him as his bair will outrange all of Zelda's aerials unless you, again, plan on attacking his tail during his bair. The same goes for uair as its hitbox begins in front of him. Use nair or Nayru's Love to catch his tail during these animations since both of those attacks have disjoints that won't trade with his attacks unless you misspace them.

General rule of thumb, don't approach him. You can use phantom 1 to outspace him and he doesn't have the speed to really punish you for it unless you completely whiff. You can also use phantom's walling properties to keep him from pressuring you with shadow ball while you pepper him with din's fire. He can't reflect din's and doesn't have the tools to approach when you do this.

It's not a fun MU at all since neither character wants to approach the other and both characters can kill each other so early. I hope some of that helped. If you have any other questions, let me know. I have a lot of MU experience against Mewtwo.

 

[Rickster]

Falling Nair combos are a little more risky against him since he goes into tumblr (<this typo though) from the multihits. That means he can tech and get away, or even use an aerial when he bounces. The good news is that we can Elevator him hilariously early even without rage.

As for Shadow Ball...I prefer not to screw around with that move. Every time I bother reflecting it I either get hit in Nayru's endlag or it breaks through and destroys me. Uncharged ones can be annoying too since they linger a bit and the endlag is low. I treat it like a Mario fireball.

One more thing: is there some gimmick to punishing his airdodge? I cannot for the life of me ever punish one, even after a Dthrow read. It's starting to irritate me, lol.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo's actually pretty tough because he outranges Zelda pretty badly. I actually like throwing out phantom 1 against him as I'm standing just outside of his range because Mewtwo players will almost always believe that they can outrange Zelda. That being said, Mewtwo's tail is not a disjoint so we can hit his tail instead of his body as he's trying to space. Again, just stay right outside of his range and attack his tail instead of him. Fsmash and Nayru's Love can catch his quick dtilt especially because Mewtwo leans forward a bit at the end of the dtilt animation so, if you miss the tail, you might be able to get away with hitting his face.

The weird thing about this MU is that both characters have reflectors and projectiles that can kill so neither should be throwing out their respective fully charged projectiles unless they're certain those projectiles will hit. In the case of shadow ball, Zelda can reflect it back at Mewtwo who can reflect it back but, most of the time, Nayru's Love will still be out when the shadow ball comes back, leading to Mewtwo getting hit by a triple reflected shadow ball which will usually kill him.

You should never be afraid to challenge him in the air either as his aerial game isn't amazing. If he's facing away from you, however, don't try to challenge him as his bair will outrange all of Zelda's aerials unless you, again, plan on attacking his tail during his bair. The same goes for uair as its hitbox begins in front of him. Use nair or Nayru's Love to catch his tail during these animations since both of those attacks have disjoints that won't trade with his attacks unless you misspace them.

General rule of thumb, don't approach him. You can use phantom 1 to outspace him and he doesn't have the speed to really punish you for it unless you completely whiff. You can also use phantom's walling properties to keep him from pressuring you with shadow ball while you pepper him with din's fire. He can't reflect din's and doesn't have the tools to approach when you do this.

It's not a fun MU at all since neither character wants to approach the other and both characters can kill each other so early. I hope some of that helped. If you have any other questions, let me know. I have a lot of MU experience against Mewtwo.

Is all of this experience based on pre-patch Mewtwo? He's much faster moving and more able to punish now.

Also, not all of Mewtwo's tail is part of his hurtbox, so there is SOME disjoint in his tail moves.

Falling Nair combos are a little more risky against him since he goes into tumblr from the multihits. That means he can tech and get away, or even use an aerial when he bounces. The good news is that we can Elevator him hilariously early even without rage.

As for Shadow Ball...I prefer not to screw around with that move. Every time I bother reflecting it I either get hit in Nayru's endlag or it breaks through and destroys me. Uncharged ones can be annoying too since they linger a bit and the endlag is low. I treat it like a Mario fireball.

One more thing: is there some gimmick to punishing his airdodge? I cannot for the life of me ever punish one, even after a Dthrow read. It's starting to irritate me, lol.

Mewtwo just drifts away too fast for Zelda to capitalize. He's got the third fastest airspeed after all.

 

[evmaxy54]

Falling Nair combos are a little more risky against him since he goes into tumblr from the multihits. That means he can tech and get away, or even use an aerial when he bounces. The good news is that we can Elevator him hilariously early even without rage.

As for Shadow Ball...I prefer not to screw around with that move. Every time I bother reflecting it I either get hit in Nayru's endlag or it breaks through and destroys me. Uncharged ones can be annoying too since they linger a bit and the endlag is low. I treat it like a Mario fireball.

One more thing: is there some gimmick to punishing his airdodge? I cannot for the life of me ever punish one, even after a Dthrow read. It's starting to irritate me, lol.

Well

Considering he only has 5 frames of end lag on his airdodge

You're best punishing it the old fashion way, study the animation & see when you have to throw out a move

 

[Zylach]

Is all of this experience based on pre-patch Mewtwo? He's much faster moving and more able to punish now.

Also, not all of Mewtwo's tail is part of his hurtbox, so there is SOME disjoint in his tail moves.



Mewtwo just drifts away too fast for Zelda to capitalize. He's got the third fastest airspeed after all.

Oh, I forgot about the buffs he got. No, I haven't faced a Mewtwo since the patch (I haven't faced anyone post patch, I'm lonely lol). They didn't really fix his biggest issues though, right? Like, he still dies at -1000000% and his animations don't match up with hitboxes entirely right? That being said, the main idea of the MU is still intact. Basically play lame against him since we can out-lame him to an extent.

Also, if you're at high percents, always, always, stay away from him. Jab 1 into dashing usmash is a kill confirm on Zelda.

 

[Rickster]

Well, going off of 2 *decent* MewTwo players on FG, he's a lot harder to punish now. His landing lag was buffed by 4 frames on each aerial. They also all have better hitboxes and more range. Fsmash also has more range. And something about Confusion having more grab range.

I feel like this MU just got a lot harder. Why do other characters get so many huge buffs but we get nothing?

 

[Zylach]

Well, going off of 2 *decent* MewTwo players on FG, he's a lot harder to punish now. His landing lag was buffed by 4 frames on each aerial. They also all have better hitboxes and more range. Fsmash also has more range. And something about Confusion having more grab range.

I feel like this MU just got a lot harder. Why do other characters get so many huge buffs but we get nothing?

I'm waiting for Zelda to get her giant list of changes in one patch like so many characters are getting.

 

[buzzard]

I'm waiting for Zelda to get her giant list of changes in one patch like so many characters are getting.

 

[Robert Lee]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the tips. It's a tough matchup for her especially because of her punishable laggy attacks but I find some tips to help me ease this matchup a little. I tend to be the aggressive rush down zelda player but I'm usually defensive for the most part.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

On punishing mewtwos AD, despite the low end lag Mewtwo is actually vulnerable a few frames before he reappears so if you generally know where he us going in the air you can just like Nair his reappear space and you should get him with Nair

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

On punishing mewtwos AD, despite the low end lag Mewtwo is actually vulnerable a few frames before he reappears so if you generally know where he us going in the air you can just like Nair his reappear space and you should get him with Nair

Still... He's airdodging. And we all know that any read airdodge must be followed up with a swift Lightning Kick

In all seriousness, an airdodge that fast doesn't leave time for human reactions to be able to punish. Learn the timing, or get used to hitting the button before he reappears.

 

[thelustykhajiit]

I hate fighting against yoshi as zelda. Is zelda vs yoshi a good matchup? To me its not

 

[Macchiato]

I hate fighting against yoshi as zelda. Is zelda vs yoshi a good matchup? To me its not

Personally I like it and think it's even

 

[buzzard]

Personally I like it and think it's even

 

[Zylach]

I hate fighting against yoshi as zelda. Is zelda vs yoshi a good matchup? To me its not

It's not. For most Zelda mains, Yoshi is really painful mostly because he has the mobility and disjoints (Why? He attacks with his face.) to space safely against Zelda without much fear of being punished. It's not one of her worst MU's though. It's just bad which is basically Zelda's average MU.

 

[meleebrawler]

It's not. For most Zelda mains, Yoshi is really painful mostly because he has the mobility and disjoints (Why? He attacks with his face.) to space safely against Zelda without much fear of being punished. It's not one of her worst MU's though. It's just bad which is basically Zelda's average MU.

Yoshi's attacks aren't really disjointed, certainly not fair. But Zelda just isn't well-equipped to outspace him.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I hate fighting against yoshi as zelda. Is zelda vs yoshi a good matchup? To me its not

It's not. For most Zelda mains, Yoshi is really painful mostly because he has the mobility and disjoints (Why? He attacks with his face.) to space safely against Zelda without much fear of being punished. It's not one of her worst MU's though. It's just bad which is basically Zelda's average MU.

Yoshi's attacks aren't really disjointed, certainly not fair. But Zelda just isn't well-equipped to outspace him.

Yoshi controls the pace of the match unless Zelda gets a stock lead or makes him afraid of her. Eggs and Yoshis mobility kill Zelda cause she can only keep up through smart reads and patience because Yoshi also has Yolo buttons he can toss out for free and only worry if he's on last stock and Zelda is a stock ahead. Yoshi is a matchup you pretty much only win through outplaying your opponent cause Zelda's only saving grace is being able to kill Yoshi at somewhat reasonable percents if you kamd a finishing blow

 

[Zylach]

Yoshi's attacks aren't really disjointed, certainly not fair. But Zelda just isn't well-equipped to outspace him.

I said disjoints when I probably meant deceptive hitboxes. Like, his fair is deceptively long because he extends and contorts his face outwards from his body. His bair is also deceptively long so it's difficult to space properly against him unless you practice regularly against a good Yoshi player. The main thing is his mobility and generally unpunishable options like landing nair to jab, SHAD uair into jab, etc.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I said disjoints when I probably meant deceptive hitboxes. Like, his fair is deceptively long because he extends and contorts his face outwards from his body. His bair is also deceptively long so it's difficult to space properly against him unless you practice regularly against a good Yoshi player. The main thing is his mobility and generally unpunishable options like landing nair to jab, SHAD uair into jab, etc.

You forgot the Eggs hon. Egg>buttons

On Fair though, Zelda can Usmash his Fair and win although I'm not sure how reliable this is. I once conditioned a Yoshi to do empty Fairs cause I wouldn't punish them and then I did when he was at kill percents and got him.

 

[Zylach]

You forgot the Eggs hon. Egg>buttons

On Fair though, Zelda can Usmash his Fair and win although I'm not sure how reliable this is. I once conditioned a Yoshi to do empty Fairs cause I wouldn't punish them and then I did when he was at kill percents and got him.

Don't talk about eggs! I'm triggered!

 

[Robert Lee]

It can tough for zelda against yoshi because of yoshi's speed and mobility and he juggles zelda well too. I usually have to reaction accordingly to what yoshi is doing and counter accordingly. You don't want to challenge his air moves too much. If you plan on comboing yoshi, cut it short because he gets reward if you decide to swing more and more with neutral aerial and other fast attacks with low startups. It's a matchup you have to take your time against yoshi.

 

[Macchiato]

Don't talk about eggs! I'm triggered!

zylach rn