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A different look at why complex control necessities for Smash can be a bad thing : health related...

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I make this thread humbly, and earnestly. It's not an attack, and I'm also not declaring this presentation as fact. It's a mere projection of my thoughts, an opinion formed in to words meant to provide some food for thought. Looking at the argument from a different perspective. I'm interested in what you may have to say.

We argue all day about the necessity, validity, and even fairness of "AT" mechanics in Smash. It's not just a two-sided issue either, and there is more than just one mechanic to speak of when this conversation is had. Immediate examples are Wavedashing and L-Cancelling.

On one side, many say that advanced techniques increase the depth of character control, thereby giving players exactly what makes SSB(M) so special as a competitive fighter. It creates the potential for those "clutch" moments that we spend all day vying to see with our own eyes in action, and then turn them in to GIFs later that we can post on reddit or put away in our secret folder with the rest of our gamer porn. The freedom of absolute control, this camp would argue, is what makes SSBM what it is, and what every SSB should be if it means to topple its Melee brethren in competitive value.

On the other most polar side, we have folks who believe that these techniques make the game too complicated. That they are unneeded barriers for entry in a game that should be relatively simple to pick up and play, from a technical standpoint. That a majority of the greatest game play in a fighting game comes from the mind games, the spacing, and the demonstration of good fundamentals.

Both of these sides have their points, and I'm not even going to bother baring in to that trench yet again. What I'm here to talk about is...your health.

Three examples I'm going to cite...first is Mew2King. Here he cites developing issues with his fingers. If this is anything but a result of his incredibly dominant career playing competitive-level Smash Bros, it'd be news to me.

https://www.facebook.com/mewtwoking/posts/741767699175034

The next example is actually one that was shown as recently as EVO...in an interview with Mango...


Relevant part begins at around the 2:00 mark. He describes consistent pain that he "freestyles" with. He cites that the size of his hands in relation to the GC controller could be a factor but in essence, this is pain that has developed as a result of playing Smash competitively.

Having to perform a constant string of the relevant pool of AT's on Melee is not something most would define as easy to perform at a high level. Everyone who plays knows the kind of controller kickflips you do with your hands when playing Smash. It takes practice and dedication to said practice to move and fight in the way these pros do...but at what cost? I understand they are having fun and doing what they love...so essentially who am I to tell them that they should stop...but does this apply to everyone?

What drives many new players is the potential to become as good as one of them. Certainly not everyone will ever get to that level. Very little amounts of people ever will, but it's that feeling that one day, they could be. Except...what about those who value their long-term dexterous health? These techniques and the way in which they must be used create a dynamic that has extreme physical demands from a top-level player in terms of their hands...and clearly it has a way of taking its toll...and rather quickly. Football players quit due to years and years of blunt bodily trauma, UFC fighters and boxers will end up with flat noses or brain damage even before they stop playing, and the passion they have for their sport is commendable in every way...but is that the mark of an accessible game? The kind of game SSB is meant to be, in every iteration?

My third example is Sakurai. Everybody knows of the issues he has incurred, and almost undoubtedly due to his heavy-handed work on the SSB franchise. Citing Melee as his most prized and slick creation, is it really any wonder his hands adopted the same fate we are seeing in our top players? Have you considered he may be designing Smash 4 to not be painful to play in the sense that he must work around the pains that designing Melee could have caused him?

This type of problem doesn't tend to show up in a lot of the rest of our FGC brotherhoods, and I'll tell you why : the fight stick. Smash is built around a handheld controller. The rest, if not all, of the other fighters are primarily played on fight sticks which are engineered to be flexible due to their long-staying value as reliable tools for fighting games. Certainly the potential is there for them to create disadvantageous circumstances for many fingers out there, but you can see how the difference between that and a hand-control are strikingly different, mostly based on the fact that a fight stick ultimately gives you the freedom to form your hand in any way you see fit to the buttons. A hand controller has one model, one size, and one shape, and your hands must cradle it, and the size of your actual hands is irrelevant to its design.

So it all comes to this, my main point. Is a more technically accessible Smash worth the loss of "control", the loss of freedom, and the other factors that pro-AT players argue for...if it means that you are not harming your actual physical condition in the process? Have you considered that the potential for long-term harmful effects on a persons dexterity could be both a detractor to players who might hope to one day be competitive, and a detractor to those who begin to experience it even if they are showing promise? The speed of the game may also be relevant in this case, as having the need to string most of these techniques together for up to 8 minutes at a time, many times a day, is what compounds this issue when it's at the speed and reflexive acuity that is required to compete in high-level Smash. This all creates exclusivity. Exclusivity to only those who are willing to endure actual long-term harm to their bodies in order to compete, they must love the game enough to willingly hurt themselves to continue playing it at the top level. How isn't this the basic polar opposite of accessible?

We all know competitive Smash is fun. We also all know that Smash can be competitive without AT's. Injecting those mechanics in to easier to perform methods would negate (at least with a very high success rate) the probability of developing health related issues in players' hands, as those functions wouldn't be nearly as strenuous to perform for long periods of time in rapid succession, and at the very same time create that openness to feeling that potential to be successful even for a newbie. This creates competitive drive in players all around, and makes our favorite game less of a health risk to play competitively.

In any case, this is just a thought I had, and I'm curious to what you think.

UPDATE : It would appear that Hax, a very skilled and well known top Melee player, has now taken an indefinite break from playing because of developing hand issues. Add that to the list...

UPDATE : Notice M2K's comment on why he's playing more Smash 4 lately...

UPDATE : Check Ken's latest tweets on his hand injuries...
 
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allison

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It'd be interesting if these techs were possible without obtuse control methods.
 

Gameboi834

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Excellent thread, it really talks about ATs from an angle that's not brought up too often.
 
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Super_Queijo

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That's a very interesting perspective. As a med student, I can confirm that fast and repetitive hand movement can lead to tendinitis and even Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and I vouch, as @crazyal02 has said, for easier inputs for those AT to make the game more acessible.
 

Dinoman96

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Yeah, Smash 4 doesn't need a billion advanced techniques to be a great competitive game.

I agree the demo we saw and played needs work, but mostly in terms of just simple physics changes. Reduce aerial lag, reduce knockback, add momentum conversation in jumps and that will do. Maybe add a bit more hitstun if the amount we currently have isn't enough.
 

Cheezey Bites

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A well constructed post. I agree that obtuse button combinations are a bad thing for your health (and n accessability), but I think any fighting game will cause health issues long term just in how quick you have to react to things, simply shielding quickly will put stresses on your joints, and that's not exactly an AT.


If they could keep the freedom and moves without the obtuse controls, then that would be the best option, and I do believe that's very possible for most techniques (seriously, just make wave-dashing into a quarter-circle, you don't use it for anything!), but removing all the stresses is impossible as the competitive players would only find more ways to push their technical game to the limits of their possibility.
 

Saikyoshi

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THANK YOU for bringing this up.

I WANT to get into the hardcore scene, but as someone who suffers from serious carpal tunnel in my right wrist, I have to do everything without wavedashing, which makes a nigh-insurmountable barrier for me.

I definitely want some form of options in SSBU/3D. But ones that I can actually USE. Which is why I'm happy about the Rolling buff.
 
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D

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A well constructed post. I agree that obtuse button combinations are a bad thing for your health (and n accessability), but I think any fighting game will cause health issues long term just in how quick you have to react to things, simply shielding quickly will put stresses on your joints, and that's not exactly an AT.


If they could keep the freedom and moves without the obtuse controls, then that would be the best option, and I do believe that's very possible for most techniques (seriously, just make wave-dashing into a quarter-circle, you don't use it for anything!), but removing all the stresses is impossible as the competitive players would only find more ways to push their technical game to the limits of their possibility.
My inclination would be to think that more simple movements are simply compensated for by proper preparation, IE exercising or warming up. Just as someone runs to allow themselves to run longer and farther, one can stretch or work their fingers in order to allow them to perform more extensively. Where is the line drawn though? At what point is a technique "too much" and exercise not enough to impede the looming harmful effects? I would imagine the line is drawn at the very least beyond single button presses.

All great questions I'm posing myself.
 
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Anomalus

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Where is the line drawn though? At one point is a technique "too much" and exercise not enough to impede the looming harmful effects? I would imagine the line is drawn at the very least beyond single button presses.
That depends entirely on how one defines "harmful effects". I doubt many expect chess to have harmful effects yet the 1984 World Championship match lasted for 5 months and was stopped (quite controversially) citing the player's health as a concern. The only way you can stop players from trading health for results is by restraining the players, not the game. Anything can be taken to excess. There's also the matter of preexisting conditions and a host of other possible concerns.

Although I think l-cancelling is effectively worthless and wavedashing input can be simplified without loss of function (that is, reduced), I don't really consider their deletion acceptable.

Another way of thinking about it is this:

Smash, by virtue of accessibility, is often of interest to younger audiences, which comparatively to adults, lack self-restraint. Should Sakurai not make the game as fun as he can so that he can negate (at least with a very high success rate) the probability of developing psychological, familial, social or scholastic issues?

If it is acceptable to enforce a technical bound to prevent physical impact, why would it not be acceptable to enforce an aesthetic bound to prevent psychological and social impact?
 

SKM_NeoN

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This actually reminds me of the current state of the NFL. Most of you probably aren't into Football, but essentially, commissioner Roger Goodell is taking several measures by way of rule changes to make the game safer. However, the vast majority of fans and analysts agree that these changes are harming the integrity of the game, and vastly changing the way it's played.

Incredible, long-standing records are being shattered every year. Games are being decided by the officials interpretation of these new rules. Players are often penalized and fined for legal hits that simply "looked bad". Kickoff returns (arguably the most exciting plays in Football) are nearly non-existent. It's a mess.

Health problems are a legitimate concern and should be addressed, but you have to be careful about how you approach it. A simple button reconfiguration or input method should suffice. Removing gameplay options altogether is simply not a good way to tackle the issue.
 

Xermo

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any high level competitive game runs the risk of one developing health issues. Wavedashing and L-canceling aren't even that hard to perform compared to techs in traditional fighters.
 

Senario

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Simplifying but not taking out features of the game seems to alleviate this problem. Lower landing lag across the board helps. That said, removing features is a bad way to approach this. Health is a legitimate concern but there is always a risk to your hands whenever you do something that requires the use of them in constant repetitive motions. Whether it be for any game or something else such as the dental profession...You use your hands, and the fact of the matter is to be good at something eventually you may develop problems health wise. Pro gamers develop carpal tunnel and the like, tennis players get tennis elbow, and a few other things.

Also, unfortunately a fight stick won't work for smash unless you can get the game to recognize that pressing up on the stick does not mean jump. You have an A button, B button, jump button, then you could have an input for grab (A and B) an input for shield. It would semi work on a six to eight button fight stick but the game doesn't support it so it is no use dwelling. Even if it were possible I can see some flaws with the way a fightstick works and how smash is played, mostly with direction and air attacks.
 
D

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This actually reminds me of the current state of the NFL. Most of you probably aren't into Football, but essentially, commissioner Roger Goodell is taking several measures by way of rule changes to make the game safer. However, the vast majority of fans and analysts agree that these changes are harming the integrity of the game, and vastly changing the way it's played.

Incredible, long-standing records are being shattered every year. Games are being decided by the officials interpretation of these new rules. Players are often penalized and fined for legal hits that simply "looked bad". Kickoff returns (arguably the most exciting plays in Football) are nearly non-existent. It's a mess.

Health problems are a legitimate concern and should be addressed, but you have to be careful about how you approach it. A simple button reconfiguration or input method should suffice. Removing gameplay options altogether is simply not a good way to tackle the issue.
That is a large part of what "AT-ists" will spend time arguing against as well, though.

Essentially I summed it up by saying Smash could only benefit in all the most important ways by making these techniques easier to perform and I'm glad most of you feel the same way.

The problem is, I've seen this solution presented to nothing but disdain from other players of the same camp. That making these functions simple to execute takes away from the complexity and depth of "performing" as a pro in Smash. How can you show you are a pro without doing crazy cool movements and tricks? My answer would be to just win a lot more than everyone else without losing but the fact of the matter is that this still is a point of contention despite the suggested resolution.

It's easy to quickly jump to the defensive and defend their existence as a whole, but let's attack the micro here, why is it unacceptable to so many that these techniques be easier to perform?
 

Khao

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I'm obviously far from an expert, but I doubt simplifying imputs for advanced techniques would make much of a difference.

The very nature of the game needs some really fast imput, ATs or not, and fingers are jumping around and pressing buttons and sticks several times per second, and to mantain the skill and keep improving, you have to be practicing constantly. When you put your hands under such constant stress, this kind of things are just going to happen. It's just something that comes with the profession. Look at piano players for one, my grandfather who was a professional, played piano at least 6 horus a day. If he wanted to keep playing and improving, that practice was necesary. And yes, he wanted to, he had been playing his whole life, he wouldn't just stop doing it for anything. Then of course, it led to hand problems. His hands were so freaking messed up that they actually started hurting if he didn't do those daily 6 hours.

It's pretty much a necesary evil, there's not much you can do about it. I'm not against simplifying imputs, but I don't think they'd be the cure for finger issues.

EDIT: Heck, talking about piano stuff, all that still doesn't stop people from playing piano for fun. I know plenty of songs, and I love playing them, I don't practice so much as my grandfather ever did, and I don't think I ever will. But that's okay, because that's not what I want to do with my life. I love playing the piano, but I don't want my life to revolve around it, people who do it professionally know what comes with it and will still continue to do so, would I ever tell them to play on automatic pianos or something just so they have an easier time? Nah, that's just how things are. Sure you can buy a piano that does complex stuff for you, but that's just no fun.

Does people with hand problems stop me from enjoying the relatively simpler songs I like playing? Hell no! It's the same thing with Smash.
 
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D

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I'm obviously far from an expert, but I doubt simplifying imputs for advanced techniques would make much of a difference.

The very nature of the game needs some really fast imput, ATs or not, and fingers are jumping around and pressing buttons and sticks several times per second, and to mantain the skill and keep improving, you have to be practicing constantly. When you put your hands under such constant stress, this kind of things are just going to happen. It's just something that comes with the profession. Look at piano players for one, my grandfather who was a professional, played piano at least 6 horus a day. If he wanted to keep playing and improving, that practice was necesary. And yes, he wanted to, he had been playing his whole life, he wouldn't just stop doing it for anything. Then of course, it led to hand problems. His hands were so freaking messed up that they actually started hurting if he didn't do those daily 6 hours.

It's pretty much a necesary evil, there's not much you can do about it. I'm not against simplifying imputs, but I don't think they'd be the cure for finger issues.

EDIT: Heck, talking about piano stuff, all that still doesn't stop people from playing piano for fun. I know plenty of songs, and I love playing them, I don't practice so much as my grandfather ever did, and I don't think I ever will. But that's okay, because that's not what I want to do with my life. I love playing the piano, but I don't want my life to revolve around it, people who do it professionally know what comes with it and will still continue to do so, would I ever tell them to play on automatic pianos or something just so they have an easier time? Nah, that's just how things are. Sure you can buy a piano that does complex stuff for you, but that's just no fun.

Does people with hand problems stop me from enjoying the relatively simpler songs I like playing? Hell no! It's the same thing with Smash.
I'm older than (most of?) our current pros and I've been playing Smash Bros with a competitive mindset since the very first. I have yet to incur any sort of pain issues, despite consistently and regularly (to a lesser degree at some points in my life) playing Smash since it dawned on humanity.

Not everyone is the same but my point is simply that being a pro at this game is rendered a health risk due to the inputs required at the level they are required to be a top player. Clearly there's a difference between the effects on a non-pro competitive player and a pro.

This is a video game. It is not football or any other physical sport where physical ramifications are sometimes a ball on the chain. It's when you forget this that you've lost perspective. A game should not be capable of creating these problems if it's designed properly...maybe that's what Sakurai is aiming for in his reduction of inputs (ATs) over the years?
 
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StaffofSmashing

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This is why I hate hate hate hate hate hate and hate Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct etc. In order to do good, you have to memorize this weird controller patterns (such as the Shoruken and Fatalities) in order to do good. My hands are more suited to concentrated inputs and not supersonic circle-pad jazz. I'd call a seasoned smash player a liar if they say they can pull off Sub Zero's fatality or Zangief's 360 degree command grabs.
 
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Xermo

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This is why I hate hate hate hate hate hate and hate Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct etc. In order to do good, you have to memorize this weird controller patterns (such as the Shoruken and Fatalities) in order to do good. My hands are more suited to concentrated inputs and not supersonic circle-pad jazz. I'd call a seasoned smash player a liar if they say they can pull off Sub Zero's fatality or Zangief's 360 degree command grabs.
Last time I checked you didn't need fatalities to be good in MK, considering those are after death finishers.
 

PCHU

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This is why I hate hate hate hate hate hate and hate Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct etc. In order to do good, you have to memorize this weird controller patterns (such as the Shoruken and Fatalities) in order to do good. My hands are more suited to concentrated inputs and not supersonic circle-pad jazz. I'd call a seasoned smash player a liar if they say they can pull off Sub Zero's fatality or Zangief's 360 degree command grabs.
I'm not bragging by any stretch of the imagination, so please don't take any of this like I am.

I dunno; I've been playing Fox in Melee for a good 6 years or so, and the first thing I went to was learning tech.
I'd practice for hours every day until I could reliably waveshine, SHFFL shine, and even multishine.
I know that these issues take time to develop, but I've only had one major problem with my right wrist, and oddly enough, I was still able to play through a local Melee tournament and take 1st (and healed shortly after).

As far as other fighting games go, I used to be one of the top 500 Tagers in BlazBlue CT/CS and one of my favorite things about him was learning to buffer 720 from any move, even jab (you'd be surprised at how easy it is to do a standing 360 once you learn the correct starting position); that's not even counting the numerous AC inputs (263C, AKA dragon punch C) in Continuum Shift and the BnB inputs in UMvC3 (Taskmaster/Wesker/Nemesis).

If you really push for it, you can do just about anything; I used to be awful at all of these games but I didn't let the complexity intimidate me.
If there ever was something I couldn't do, I just found something else I could do and worked with that.
 
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This actually reminds me of the current state of the NFL. Most of you probably aren't into Football, but essentially, commissioner Roger Goodell is taking several measures by way of rule changes to make the game safer. However, the vast majority of fans and analysts agree that these changes are harming the integrity of the game, and vastly changing the way it's played.

Incredible, long-standing records are being shattered every year. Games are being decided by the officials interpretation of these new rules. Players are often penalized and fined for legal hits that simply "looked bad". Kickoff returns (arguably the most exciting plays in Football) are nearly non-existent. It's a mess.

Health problems are a legitimate concern and should be addressed, but you have to be careful about how you approach it. A simple button reconfiguration or input method should suffice. Removing gameplay options altogether is simply not a good way to tackle the issue.
No pun intended? lol

As far as health is concerned, I feel like that is an inevitability. A person who has a desk job behind a computer runs the same risk. Same with someone who has to write a lot for a job. In Sakurai's case, a combination of actual playing and figure manipulation was the issue.

I feel like if you make appropriate countermeasures, like eating properly, messaging your hands, and most importantly, taking a break and getting some appropriate rest, these wouldn't be issues, or at least they wouldn't be as prominent.

As far as Mew2King is concerned, I get that he has pains, but take it from me...that n**ga goes ham. I love him to death, but him staying up till like 5 in the morning and eating cereal 'n' **** 24/7 isn't gonna help. He is getting better though, watching what he eats and getting more sleep (even though he should sleep on a bed more often).

...

....

I hope you're reading this Jason...

JASON!!!
 
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Tristan_win

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I feel this is the result for anything that has a physical element to it, part of the reason why the best players are the best is because they push the limits of what can be done and a lot of the time this means the body giving out before the person. To be honest this is part of the reason why I love melee, because of this physical aspect. Now I wont say they shouldn't do things to help prevent getting damaged but limiting the game 'AT' only for the lowest percentile (Being generous if 10% of totals sales are from competitive players, and less then 10% of the competitive scene are having problems then we are looking at something close to but realistically much lower then 1% of the total sales when this is being a problem) overall just makes the game worst for everyone for that uber small group isn't fair.
 
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ryuu seika

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Now I wont say they shouldn't do things to help prevent getting damaged but limiting the game 'AT' only for the lowest percentile (Being generous if 10% of totals sales are from competitive players, and less then 10% of the competitive scene are having problems then we are looking at something close to but realistically much lower then 1% of the total sales when this is being a problem) overall just makes the game worst for everyone for that uber small group isn't fair.
This assumes that ATs instantly improve the game for everyone but, if only 10 percent of players are competitive, surely only that 10% will be using the ATs anyway. If 1% are those harmed by ATs, that leaves only 9% of the initial sales that lose out from their cut.
Add to that that things like L cancelling add literally nothing to the game and you don't seem to have much of an argument.
 

Rambeard

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Excellent thread. I've been skeptical about going into Smash as hard as these pros do because of the hand issues with M2K. Now Mango is showing these signs as well. It's troubling to wrap your mind around it. You could be 25 and have arthritis in your hands from years of Smash. Melee is the biggest culprit to this hand problem. Your hands are going all over the place on your controller, rather than the same general area like on a fightstick. Perhaps it could be due to some of these characters in the game NEEDING the AT's more than others. Before too long, many people will have this same issue and it's really sad to think about. This is why I am moving onto SSBU when it comes out, in hopes that I don't have to do too many AT's in order to be professional with the game. Much like SSB64 was for me. I was good amongst my friends without really having to go through the troubles like in Melee with AT's.
 

pizzapie7

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Bodies wear down. M2K has been putting in work on this game for nearly a decade. Probably in serious excess. His hands will eventually not be able to take it. @Zipzo , one of your posts said video games shouldn't have physical ramifications. Video games have always been about dexterity. You need to move your hands to put in inputs, and in some cases throwing in a lot of inputs incredibly fast is honestly the way the game needs to be played. I honestly don't think this is a problem with tech in and of itself. It's a combination of players pushing both their hands and the game to its physical limits and the fact that playing a fighting game with a gamecube controller is obtuse. Cutting back on the tech required would be a great way to keep its players safe, but its not the tech's fault that players push themselves.
 

Cactusblah

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I'm not a fan of complex inputs for any game. If the same result can be achieved with fewer, simpler inputs, the game should be designed that way. Ideally we could play with our minds and avoid input methods entirely. I've been having some thumb, wrist, and elbow pain recently from speedrunning so I had to take a break from that.

I never took Melee too seriously because of the inputs necessary for high-level play. Something like L-cancelling doesn't add anything to the depth of the game, it just makes it more difficult to play. I respect skilled players who practice these ATs to perfection, but they aren't needed to make the game better.
 

SpiderMad

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I believe a couple of the primary culprits in Melee for hand strain are use of the Gamecube controller's hard press and how 3 frame jumpsquats (Fox and others, about a dozen characters in Project M) unnecessarily become 2 frame windows for SH in Melee (that Brawl/PM fixed back to 3) due to faulty coding which I'll explain.

L-cancelling is not an issue if people light press it, though some people hard press it anyways.

Here he cites developing issues with his fingers. If this is anything but a result of his incredibly dominant career playing competitive-level Smash Bros, it'd be news to me. The next example is actually one that was shown as recently as EVO...in an interview with Mango...

Have you considered he may be designing Smash 4 to not be painful to play in the sense that he must work around the pains that designing Melee could have caused him?
Here's examples I've gathered
http://www.twitch.tv/srkevo1/b/546556277?t=19m00s Mango
http://i.minus.com/jKtnqvU37Xs0n.png M2k/Mango
http://i.minus.com/jbzvbmihvouMHD.png Hax
http://i.minus.com/jzWk06KJY3QeP.png Leffen

This is what Sakurai needs to do if he wants Smash 4 to be comfortable without people having to remove shoulder springs again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDHwExc5A5Y
[This video also explains the controller mechanics of Light vs Hard press]
[Update: They indeed went with light press for Smash 4. Well that sure is something.]

Project M can avoid hand pain. It's already half way there. Here's a post I've been saving. Half of it is basically what this video is saying https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vy0CRk5qmU


In Melee for some reason they checked for jump button release to determine short hop a frame early. This made the three frame jump squat characters into a pretty absurd threshold to perform a basic technique. Brawl fixed this, and checked the last frame possible like it should have; basically making it easier with no downsides. Project M has this carry over from Brawl, and thus the three frame jump squat characters are at a reasonable threshold to short hop with: while still being the exact amount of frames of jumpstart as Melee.
More info on this: http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-6-beta.339825/page-2168#post-19533579

So Project M is half way there. What's the other straining thing?

The other straining thing in Melee is initiating a hard press, which in Melee is needed for Power Shielding, Teching, and Air dodge. Most (I'd say 90%+) GC games never used the hard press. Notice here a Tech seems to trigger Mango's carpal tunnel; and while complaining he seems to restrict himself not to Wavedash. http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/544903456?t=2h17m38s
Edit: Link doesn't work anymore, use this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROf0cius7KU#t=1049

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...ing_youve_always_disliked_about_smash/ci33esn
And here they're compensating the hard press drain by using both triggers (and even then still gives them finger trouble http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...ing_youve_always_disliked_about_smash/ci3ebxz ).

Can you make the hard press less hard to click in any way?

Yes, you can shorten or take out your spring(s) and insert a spacer if you want, and/or you can cut holes in the rubber mesh. Kadano's videos:
http://youtu.be/tL3zzBMGPaY Lube + Hard press rubber weakening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwJ20lYS9bw&list=UU5kTkoEn9jKYDhQ0p2nz9IA#t=1359 Spring shorten + Hard press rubber weakening
http://smashboards.com/threads/any-...ler-modifications.335701/page-2#post-16168790 Inserting a spacer

Won't using it a lot just make it easier to press?

Rarely, and the commonly seen new Silvers and Whites (and possibly the new Smash 4 Blacks EDIT: Yep they're like the whites) have stiff triggers beyond lacking a certain bar piece that prevents jamming; in which most people just replaced them with past controllers. And not all past controllers have comfortable hard presses to gain much from switching with, and personally I don't like some that seem to resonate after the hard press (Kadano doesn't like that either https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1EMIfb8Dbo#t=234)
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2940c9/white_controller_shoulder_buttons_replacement/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2909o1/i_solved_the_stiff_triggers_on_my_new_white/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1y9c3t/i_finally_got_around_to_modding_my_controllers/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/293lzr/replacing_new_gc_triggers/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/292x0r/a_detailed_overview_of_the_white_gcn_controller/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/294l4t/platinum_controllers_seem_to_have_the_same/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/293p8v/would_sanding_down_the_triggers_help/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1y9xbm/new_controller_triggers/

Can PM give any options around hard press?

-Wii type controllers can be mentioned, since they weren't designed with an analog slider in mind they just have a normal button/trigger to trigger air dodge and such. One reason users often say they enjoy them.
-Also light shields don't exist yet but power shielding was chosen to still be on hard press (In the Full-set) which some people don't like and PM could chose to change but hasn't http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2d4uo6/powershielding_and_analog_triggers/ [the benefit they currently have of making PS only trigger on Hard press is if you want to shield something at perfect timing without wanting the power shield, as well as also triggers tech each time you use it though again most people hard press their shields anyways]
-Some people use control schemes where shield is on X or Y (or even D-pad) to AD or PS in an easier manner.
-In the Full-set Teching, Powershielding, and Air dodge are all hard press: but in the Wifi set light press triggers everything so you never need to hard press. This is an alternative, and in my and other's opinion better in a lot of regards, to removing or modifying your controller's springs and hard press rubber to achieve similar benefits.
[Which again this video briefly explains https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vy0CRk5qmU ]

What's the Pros and Cons of the Wifi set with everything being on light press?

First off I have to mention: if Melee's light shielding was able to be implemented that'd confuse some of what I've been talking about with how that would work out with both versions and with Wii type controllers (wouldn't be usable for). But we don't know any of that yet. I'd appreciate the option to have one trigger still all light press with the other the ability to light shield; this is similar to someone like Standardtoaster and others removing only one of their shoulder's springs.

Pros

+ It's very easy to press: requiring a lot less effort than the hard press. It also allows more expansive grip without your finger being bound to have to go an inch inward to ever reach the hard press. Thus having all the inputs on light press shortens what would be the transitioning between the flexed and non-flexed finger movement (which alternatively removing your springs somewhat achieves, and usually they like adding a spacer) as well as the final click to trigger it (which can be the most straining, but lessened through modification mentioned above). Given how easy and fast you can trigger each analog input, this makes wavedashing at a fast rate (and with less chance of unintentionally triggering shield afterword because of having to flex less inward/outward) easier and more comfortable.

+ Since there's now no possible threshold of force needed beyond the comfort level like the the rest of the controller buttons (similarly to the eased threshold of 3 frame short hops) your hands overall tension can be and remain lower.

+ Occasionally there's a controller that doesn't even trigger the hard press consistently, but works fine for light press.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w9NMFxU1Eg
(similarly though, some out there do have analog problems)

~ Custom controls set to L or R other than Shield are all light press in both the Fullset and Wifiset.
This is only a benefit. Given someone wants the action to be hard press instead, holding in the shoulder in just before the click (while plugging the controller in or X+Y+Start 3 seconds) will achieve that (with no draw backs, since any other action in the game that's not Shield like Attack or Jump only has one action).

~ Teching and Powershielding are easier and quicker to trigger in reaction without having to go the extra inch further with your finger. Though: Teching being on light press does cause a loss of advantage concerning when your L-cancel triggers it: this is detailed in the Cons section.

~ Again, most new controllers (Whites and newer Silvers) have lackluster full presses. The new Smash 4 controllers will possibly follow the same. Modification is often needed to suite what would be the average user's preference of a more medium/easy resistance on it for hard press use.

Cons

*Be reminded that any Wii type controller used for PM has these same issues/downfalls regardless of Light vs Hard press, as well as Brawl and Smash 4 share these limitations in their game-play as well (by not having any analog input, being as they're designed for the Wii controllers). Same thing for anyone who has removed their springs.

In Brawl, similarly since everything was one input as well it has two noticeable effects:

- Since Brawl had a whopping 10 frames of buffer, certain moves that cancelled fast enough, like Lucario's aura sphere, would perform the cancel and then still have frames that it would always buffer an air dodge afterword.
*This doesn't lead to issues unless you're using around 2 frames or more of buffer, so it doesn't apply to Project M tournaments.

- You can't buffer shield in the air without activating an air dodge.
*You can still buffer it while doing an aerial/special or while in hitstun. You also still have 4 or more frames of landing lag (depending on your character's amount of normal landing lag frames, http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-statistics-list.30064/ ) in which you can buffer your shield as soon as you land from an empty jump.

Specific to PM (since L-cancelling now exists):

- Since Teching is also light press, there's a chance that you can get hit with a low knock-back move right before landing from an aerial in which you L-cancelled for and then hit the ground with the lost opportunity to tech if you pressed the trigger again not knowing you already triggered it (you triggered your tech window already with the L-cancel since Teching is triggered on light press as well whereas in the full set you can light press the L-cancel while preserving the tech to be timed whenever since it's triggered on hard press). Inputting more than one tech within 20 frames causes a fail window (created to make people time their techs).
Here's more info on the tech/tech fail window: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkdPVUlrSOo
*Many players out there already blow this advantage by hard pressing their L-cancels in Melee and in the Fullset, or by using Z to L-cancel in PM which also triggers tech unlike in Melee, or having shield set on a separate button to L-cancel with, or using a Wii type controller which again has no differentiation, or removing their springs which many players do). http://smashboards.com/threads/do-you-bottom-out-when-l-canceling.359197
And some people even want to try and argue Full pressing your L-cancels is a good thing in Melee (and call it an option select) for it also triggering tech. (You'll have to open all these, Facebook sucks)
http://gfycat.com/MellowFlakyAnglerfish
http://i.imgur.com/ohZACRk.png
http://i.imgur.com/gy3pPoL.png
http://i.imgur.com/CjGqWiD.png
http://i.imgur.com/TXkFQv4.png
http://i.imgur.com/aj2fiuF.png
http://i.imgur.com/TA1rwr1.png

**It's always possible Air dodge could be available as Light press while Tech stays on hard for whoever wants to avoid this limitation. Extensive theoretical custom controls.

- Magus mentions this http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-878#post-12540626, but I can't say I see this occur much. Few aerials (GnW's) have their IASA come before their Autocancel window (in which you don't have to L-cancel); and at which point a waveland is often optimal to L-cancelling. Similarly though, if you L-cancel before you performed an Attack: you will Air dodge. L-cancelling before you attack is again uncommon and not complained about by springless users; as an L-cancel input does not apply towards the Aerial unless the Aerial was already started (thus this is an issue of receiving detriment for mistiming). Also funny thing, you can't even use AD through IASA in Melee (or Specials either).
[*Here's a guide on Autocancels and IASA: http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-auto-cancels-and-iasa-concerning-up-air-bair.332160/ ]

*
Wavedash OOS (Out of Shield) using both triggers (as in holding one to shield, and then pressing the other to Wavedash) doesn't work. You have to use one (as in hold one to shield, press jump and release it, press again to air dodge).
This is not because of light press air dodge. This is because when they developed the Shield/Button differentiation code for version 3.5 they didn't add it to the Wifi set as it desyncs Wifi/Replays. Light press air dodge created as a custom control in the fullset would not be tied to the other faults the Wifi set has (every coded mechanic that desyncs replays/wifi isn't included in the Wifi set to allow it to work for Wifi).

- If you play a character that triggers their tether from Shield+A, you'll need to let go of shield when doing an aerial out of shield or it will trigger the tether. Thus for Tether characters doing an Aerial OOS becomes difficult and Shield drop Aerial extremely difficult.
Same as in Brawl, but more noticeable with light press. This takes a bit to get used to and is still annoying for a character like Samus (who has a quick jump squat) doing an aerial OOS. You have get use to letting go of shield during the jump squat (for the respective characters you would have to do this for).

Even with that though, doing a shield drop instant aerial is almost impossible (it will trigger the tether): so that sucks. Overall this can be a notable nuisance to tether characters even after you get use to it, with the only advantage being you can trigger the tether easier on purpose.
**Again, Theoretical custom controls could be developed that triggers Air dodge on light press but tethers on full press: or on one shoulder button but not the other. This would also solve the problem for Wii controllers mentioned in the cons section.

- Due to Brawl's physics delay (unfixed in PM), dash shield dropping through a platform gets screwed up when performed with a hard press: thus in the Wifi set it's impossible to perform correctly, as well as for anyone who has their springs removed.
Video explanation: https://youtu.be/nBqtfQfl5Cs?t=138

________________________________________________________________________________________

Are these negatives worth the gain of ease, comfort, and speed for very often used shoulder actions for many people? Yes
Is light press for everyone? No
Should light press be forced as standard? No
Should hard press be forced as standard? No
-it can be the cause of Smash hand/wrist pain in certain cases: especially if your triggers suck or you haven't modified them.
-Also for people with hand issues already the light press is a lot more tolerable for them, I had this myself while going through a wrist injury like this guy did. http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-1664#post-14506934
Could they code a player specific light press option into the full set? Possibly, it's extremely worth putting time into; and be thankful for.

Supporters:

People posting after hard press was re-implemented asking for a dual-option:
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thre...-press-and-c-stick-detection.2394/#post-39945

Zhime:
http://i.minus.com/iGnYKX9WpNXp.png (1)
http://i.minus.com/ibrEKCFHy9QNq5.png (2)

Reddit people complaining about hard press and using both triggers to alleviate: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...ing_youve_always_disliked_about_smash/ci33esn

People's comments on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vy0CRk5qmU

"Light pressing L-cancels saves your fingers": people say this all the time, well.. [So would air dodge]
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...autocancel_and_lcancel_explanation_by/cmry26w

These people:

Ecks: http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-877#post-12539420
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-685#post-12144938

iLink: http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-1664#post-14506934

Vigilante (or at least use to): http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-877#post-12539682
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-877#post-12539888

Paradoxium: http://smashboards.com/posts/16008499/

Plum: http://smashboards.com/posts/16008848/

DMG (almost?): http://smashboards.com/threads/giga...ad-breaker-v3-5.339825/page-146#post-16008790

Ulevo: http://www.smashmods.com/forum/threads/is-it-just-me-or-is-wavedashing-harder.2079/#post-36355
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-877#post-12539482
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-685#post-12144994
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-628#post-12112963
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-878#post-12540469

slimpyman
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread.260812/page-878#post-12540125

jtm94 and Kidneyjoe
http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2oyt80/tournament_version_of_pm_and_air_dodging/cms05zq

BrolyLegs
http://i.imgur.com/P6Nic2v.png (The tweet: https://twitter.com/Brolylegs/status/554135574953861121 )
(more about Broly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83nSodg-HTU , he played Melee and he recently got 9th at KiT Smash 4 tournament)

All the many people who have removed their springs show light press has merit. (I could list hundreds, eventually I'll do a google survey to research this sort of thing)

More health stuff: http://smashboards.com/threads/staying-healthy-a-guide-to-playing-melee-better-and-longer.332355/

Another summation post regarding removing springs vs Light Press: along with talk on buffer.
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-5.339825/page-1391#post-18264410

more info: http://smashboards.com/threads/giga...d-breaker-v3-5.339825/page-1408#post-18291021

Another summation post: http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-559#post-18473143

Post on quick hard press transitions http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-5.339825/page-1625#post-18629988

Also it turns out all Wii controllers only have one level of shield input EXCEPT the original classic controller: which had (two or more?) different click levels (which is very odd and intriguing for a number of reasons).

 
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Ulevo

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Just to give people a heads up. I'll be out of school soon and be acting as a registered massage therapist in Ontario, so I see and will be dealing with a lot of these issues both as someone treating clients and as someone who will have to deal with it if I am not smart about how I choose to maintain my posture and use techniques when I treat. When people like M2K, who are developing severe cases of carpal tunnel or tendinitis in their hands, wrist, or finger, ask what they can do to treat this while still engaging in the activity they are to the degree they are, you can't. I can personally treat that area, you can do home care exercises, use ice to help the inflammation, but nothing is going to magically make this go away. Medications like anti-inflammatories will only alleviate the symptoms on a temporary basis until they get even worse, and surgery is largely unsuccessful, often worsening the condition and comes with a myriad of other problems.

This is your body telling you that you're either being irresponsible to it, or that you're being a neglectful jerk. If you do not listen to it, there will be consequences. Whether or not you choose to move forward and live with those consequences is of course your decision, and if you're passionate, then by all means I support you.

That said, I don't advocate or promote functions of a game that induce these conditions as a by product of playing the game on a competitive level. Fighting games, and Melee especially, have always been a game of technical feats. I do not want that to change. But I also don't think that the person who takes home the Apex trophy should be the guy who decided he was willing to develop the most carpal tunnel down the road. That's not something of value to which the games competitive scene should be measured.

All this said, I think it largely irrelevant since Smash 4 isn't exactly mechanically intensive and Melee is what it is for those who want to play it. For those in the Project M deveopment team or for people who want to take further stabs at the modding scene, I think this and what SpiderMad has mentioned should be under serious consideration.
 
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D

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It's worth noting for the subject of the thread, that Hax has recently gone on indefinite leave due to...you guessed it, hand injuries.

Let's really ask ourselves...are complex techniques really good for Smash and more importantly as an extension to that question, for its player base?
 

Raijinken

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It's worth noting for the subject of the thread, that Hax has recently gone on indefinite leave due to...you guessed it, hand injuries.

Let's really ask ourselves...are complex techniques really good for Smash and more importantly as an extension to that question, for its player base?
Well, the obvious answer is "Yes, from a competitive depth stance, but only for a short time."

If the growth provided by the intrigue and depth offered by techniques is really worth the mandatory high turnover rate due to injury, then we can do that. But that's not necessarily a desirable state. Having both options present (as we currently do, between Smash4 and PM/Melee) lets Smash appeal to both crowds viably.
 

Ulevo

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It's worth noting for the subject of the thread, that Hax has recently gone on indefinite leave due to...you guessed it, hand injuries.

Let's really ask ourselves...are complex techniques really good for Smash and more importantly as an extension to that question, for its player base?
It isn't a question of complex techniques. It's a question of the mechanical strain induced when performing these techniques based on the constraints of the controller design and button input requirements. The GC controller is pretty comfortable, but it has some limitations for the way it's been implemented. People develop carpal tunnel continually because when they're sitting at their computer, their wrist are not parallel to the desk, but instead in a closed pact position at about 5-10 degrees or more. It's not like using the mouse is any more or less difficult to use based on that slight alteration in wrist and forearm positioning, but it makes a difference to your long term health. Mango mentioned he has big hands, and that creates issues for him. I'm sure others have similar problems.

I don't want this kind of a topic, which has legitimate concerns, to devolve in to something stupid like "L-Cancelling is dumb because it causes arthritis!!!1" I'd prefer it if people saw that there are limitations and real world dilemmas with possible solutions.
 
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Tino

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Everyone in the competitive scene, especially "top professionals", should make notes of this. Definitely worth something to think about.
 

Iko MattOrr

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This is why I dislike L canceling.
Anyway, I like the Wavedash a lot, but it would be nicer if it was easier to do, control wise. As I suggested in another post, I think it should be made by simply shield+jump+dir, just like the normal roll/dodge but with the jump added.
It would be possible by holding shield, then tapping jump and tilting the analog during a small frame of animation where the character releases the shield; as alternative, you can simply hold shield and tilt the analog up (jupm) then tilt it to left or right during the said frame.
Probably this way it would be a little more laggy but at least it wouldn't hurt the hands.

Bad joke: In Soviet Russia, Smash fights your hands. -.-
 

OurBoyRoy

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I think you might be misidentifying AT as the culprit, when these kind of injuries are just the inevitable result of something physical being done at a high level in a professional or competitive setting. Typists, illustrators, animators. They get carpal tunnel. Athletes blow out their knees or throw out their shoulders. Our bodies aren't meant to do a single activity in an extreme and repetitive way, but we do it anyway. No matter what AT you remove, playing smash competitively is still going to require spending an unhealthy amount of time practicing and hammering a controller, and trying to do something faster than the other player.

Pro/competitive gamers are going to be at a high risk of repetitive motion injuries. I think its something players should know going in, and treat aggressively, but I don't think changing the game is a wise or practical solution.
 

Darklink401

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In this scenario, I'd say Smash 4 is exactly what we need. Brawl removed a lot of ATs, but was very slow and somewhat tedious to watch. However, Smash 4 on the other hand, is quite a lot faster. And I'm sure in a couple of years, it'll be great to watch.

So it'll be easier for the hands of the players, AND good stuff for audiences. ;P
 
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S_B

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No matter what AT you remove, playing smash competitively is still going to require spending an unhealthy amount of time practicing and hammering a controller, and trying to do something faster than the other player.
While this is true, you have to factor in that running 10 miles isn't going to tear up your knees as badly as running 100.

The number of button presses required for wavedashing is significantly higher than what SSB4 requires right now.

Yes, in both games, you need to make Shiek move at a billion MPH, but it's still so many fewer presses if you're not constantly wavedashing while you do it.
 

Cheezey Bites

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I think you might be misidentifying AT as the culprit, when these kind of injuries are just the inevitable result of something physical being done at a high level in a professional or competitive setting. Typists, illustrators, animators. They get carpal tunnel. Athletes blow out their knees or throw out their shoulders. Our bodies aren't meant to do a single activity in an extreme and repetitive way, but we do it anyway. No matter what AT you remove, playing smash competitively is still going to require spending an unhealthy amount of time practicing and hammering a controller, and trying to do something faster than the other player.

Pro/competitive gamers are going to be at a high risk of repetitive motion injuries. I think its something players should know going in, and treat aggressively, but I don't think changing the game is a wise or practical solution.
Typing has changed massively since it's inception and a lot of the shortcuts have changed throughout the years to make the most common shortcuts more comfortable. We've also changed our word processors to automatically adjust for thing like first word capitols, and certain grammar that's more difficult to input. Add to this the constant research into more ergonomic keyboards and the variety that exist for different people's hand sizes and techniques and you'll realise that professional typists have already changed both their jobs and their input techniques to better save their hands from these issues. Many even create custom shortcuts so as to make their lives easier. Shortcuts are basically ATs.

Illustrators use new tools, pattern betas and all sorts to make their work easier too, as I'm sure do animators. I can slo tell from my own experience that Harpers/ists (there's a difference) use different hand shapes dependent on what type of music they commonly play (often what's most popular at the time) to make the more intricate musical forms within a genre easier to play. The advanced techniques of other styles are still possible (for the most part; obviously concert and folk harps do make a difference) but your control is designed to make the actions you're taking as easy as possible to stop unwarranted strain.


It's true that all these professions still get injuries, but they take every precaution they can to minimize this risk; and that's all we're asking for in this thread. Cleverer input and control design won't change the game, it will simply make things easier on the competitive players. Making wave-dashing simpler to execute with the exact same properties would not decrease the complexity of the game, or save the most avid players from repetitive motion strain, but will reduce unnecessary risk, and likely either make it take longer to get an injury, or make it less severe when that time comes.
 

Darklink401

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Why IS wavedashing so hard? I've done it in Project M often enough, and it's very simplistic. Or was it harder in Melee?
 

Raijinken

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Why IS wavedashing so hard? I've done it in Project M often enough, and it's very simplistic. Or was it harder in Melee?
Doing it once isn't hard for an experienced player. Doing it over and over and over and over and over (etc) again in a match is harder, and more strenuous, than most other inputs in Melee.
 

SuaveChaser

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This type stuff isn't the fault of ATs more of playing at a high level so long. ATs are great for smash. Having a more limited game with less options sucks.
 
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