A different look at why complex control necessities for Smash can be a bad thing : health related...

[Darklink401]

Doing it once isn't hard for an experienced player. Doing it over and over and over and over and over (etc) again in a match is harder, and more strenuous, than most other inputs in Melee.

I can see that.

I guess doing it repeatedly from side to side would be simplistic, but doing it quickly enough for it to be effective, to the level that these top players use it, and in such dynamic ways (especially after years of doing so) WOULD likely be very taxing XP

 

[OurBoyRoy]

Typing has changed massively since it's inception and a lot of the shortcuts have changed throughout the years to make the most common shortcuts more comfortable. We've also changed our word processors to automatically adjust for thing like first word capitols, and certain grammar that's more difficult to input. Add to this the constant research into more ergonomic keyboards and the variety that exist for different people's hand sizes and techniques and you'll realise that professional typists have already changed both their jobs and their input techniques to better save their hands from these issues. Many even create custom shortcuts so as to make their lives easier. Shortcuts are basically ATs.

Illustrators use new tools, pattern betas and all sorts to make their work easier too, as I'm sure do animators. I can slo tell from my own experience that Harpers/ists (there's a difference) use different hand shapes dependent on what type of music they commonly play (often what's most popular at the time) to make the more intricate musical forms within a genre easier to play. The advanced techniques of other styles are still possible (for the most part; obviously concert and folk harps do make a difference) but your control is designed to make the actions you're taking as easy as possible to stop unwarranted strain.


It's true that all these professions still get injuries, but they take every precaution they can to minimize this risk; and that's all we're asking for in this thread. Cleverer input and control design won't change the game, it will simply make things easier on the competitive players. Making wave-dashing simpler to execute with the exact same properties would not decrease the complexity of the game, or save the most avid players from repetitive motion strain, but will reduce unnecessary risk, and likely either make it take longer to get an injury, or make it less severe when that time comes.

Yes, in a not directly competitive field they try to make shortcuts, and while those shortcuts might help with some of the severity, they're never going to counteract the damage you do with repetitive motion. Every illustrator/artist I know, despite all the tools they employ, has at least moderate carpal tunnel and most have to wear a wrist brace. Several have already had to have surgery. These are people in their early-mid 20s, by the way. Even without AT, I'd be amazed if competitive smash didn't have the same results.

Simplifying AT would absolutely change the game and lower the skill cap. We're talking about taking the "advanced" techs and making them "easier". That's going to open a higher level of play to less skilled players.

 

[Pazzo.]

Very interesting read.

While I never played Melee competitively, concerns over the ATs and heath is an angle which is not often discussed... But surely should be.

While Melee can't be helped mechanicly, perhaps fangames like PM could take a simplified approach found in more recent smash games. I'm not saying to nerf the gameplay, just make it easier to execute.

For anyone else at the present, I believe that using hand dexterity exercises like the ones found in the link below might help with preventing future injuries. It's relevant to know, and I suggest anyone use them, especially if you're a competitive smasher.

Who knows, maybe we can get a physical care section into the competitive boards.

http://www.ultimate-grip-strength.com/hand-dexterity-exercises.html

 

[Darklink401]

Very interesting read.

While I never played Melee competitively, concerns over the ATs and heath is an angle which is not often discussed... But surely should be.

While Melee can't be helped mechanicly, perhaps fangames like PM could take a simplified approach found in more recent smash games. I'm not saying to nerf the gameplay, just make it easier to execute.

For anyone else at the present, I believe that using hand dexterity exercises like the ones found in the link below might help with preventing future injuries. It's relevant to know, and I suggest anyone use them, especially if you're a competitive smasher.

Who knows, maybe we can get a physical care section into the competitive boards.

http://www.ultimate-grip-strength.com/hand-dexterity-exercises.html

I believe PM DID make ATs easier to execute.

Also I'd be down for a physical care section, but wouldn't just going to a doctor be more recommended?

 

[Pazzo.]

I believe PM DID make ATs easier to execute.

Also I'd be down for a physical care section, but wouldn't just going to a doctor be more recommended?

We live in an information age.

There's no need to spend money when you can get information online.

 

[Darklink401]

We live in an information age.

There's no need to spend money when you can get information online.

Information age, sure, but if I'd get information anywhere it'd be from an actual official health website. Not a smash bros. forum.

That's just me tho.

 

[Octavium]

Of course, health issues are a possible problem for most competitive sports. May it be a repetitive strain injury or injury from accidents.

Most athletes are aware of the health issues that overtraining may cause aswell as those that can occur from simply playing the sport. (Getting a 100mph baseball to the face has always been a possibility)

If it means they get to play their favorite sports, the possible injuries are nothing but a minor concern to them.
For some, the difference between Melee and Smash4 is as massive as the difference between Football and Hockey.

Is it such a problem to support them for playing what they love, even if they can get injured?? (Please... Melee HD!)

Personally I'm training to be an amateur Muay Thai fighter, I can get seriously hurt, but does it give anybody the right to deny my future of fighting in a ring?

 

[Tachion]

Very interesting read.

While I never played Melee competitively, concerns over the ATs and heath is an angle which is not often discussed... But surely should be.

While Melee can't be helped mechanicly, perhaps fangames like PM could take a simplified approach found in more recent smash games. I'm not saying to nerf the gameplay, just make it easier to execute.

For anyone else at the present, I believe that using hand dexterity exercises like the ones found in the link below might help with preventing future injuries. It's relevant to know, and I suggest anyone use them, especially if you're a competitive smasher.

Who knows, maybe we can get a physical care section into the competitive boards.

MaskO'Gears offered a good point that I've been looking into myself lately. Proper upkeep of one's body is what allows it to function smoothly into older age - so why on earth neglect our hands? Especially if we're putting them through the demands of this game. Stretching and strengthening are key in the prolonged mobility of our bodies, we shouldn't leave out the beautiful tools that are our hands. Tools that we only get one set of.

A guide here called "Staying Healthy - A Guide to Playing Melee Better and Longer" by thespymachine is what got me thinking on this. It's a very informative guide, with many awesome links and citations. However, my lurker status prevents me from posting links.

And thanks for the thread Zipzo, a great read.

 

[MoHarp]

This is why in games where I could change the controls I placed my shield button on X and avoid the L and R plungers completely. Those two shoulder buttons will murder your hands and wrists...

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Never thought playing a video game can destroy your body that severely.

 

[Frostwraith]

Never thought playing a video game can destroy your body that severely.

I think the issue is not just playing video games, but playing them too much. It's a matter of excess.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

And the evidence keeps piling on...

At least in his case. He even states he enjoys playing Smash 4 lately because it doesn't hurt his hands. That's pretty blunt and straight forward.

The fact of the matter that we may very well have benefitted from Sakurai's abandonment of Melee's techniques for health reasons. Think about it for a minute. Does it create gameplay with extreme depth, and make for incredibly hype matches? Yes, it does.

Is it worth it? Are those hype matches worth what your top players are going through to create those matches? I think it's foolish to assume this is a matter of excess. These are players who play for living, and playing at their level causes issues that you may very well cannot reverse. That's a pretty high barrier for entry...play at their level? Destroy your hands...

 

[Deleted member]

And the evidence keeps piling on...

At least in his case. He even states he enjoys playing Smash 4 lately because it doesn't hurt his hands. That's pretty blunt and straight forward.

The fact of the matter that we may very well have benefitted from Sakurai's abandonment of Melee's techniques for health reasons. Think about it for a minute. Does it create gameplay with extreme depth, and make for incredibly hype matches? Yes, it does.

Is it worth it? Are those hype matches worth what your top players are going through to create those matches? I think it's foolish to assume this is a matter of excess. These are players who play for living, and playing at their level causes issues that you may very well cannot reverse. That's a pretty high barrier for entry...play at their level? Destroy your hands...

Wavedashing wasn't intentional is the thing, though. I'd actually prefer if Melee didn't have wavedashing as not only would it give more health benefits, it wouldn't imo take away any depth and make the game more fun competitively.

 

[Runic_SSB]

I believe PM DID make ATs easier to execute.

Dashing no longer requires you to slam the stick all the way to the side.

 

[SpiderMad]

They do have a mild buffer so you don't have to literally input something on frame 1 in order to do it ASAP

Are you referring to the currently non-tourney legal "Input Assist" feature (which turns on 3 of Brawl's original 10 frames of global buffering)? If not, there's not really anything like that.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Wavedashing wasn't intentional is the thing, though. I'd actually prefer if Melee didn't have wavedashing as not only would it give more health benefits, it wouldn't imo take away any depth and make the game more fun competitively.

You're an idiot.

Are you referring to the currently non-tourney legal "Input Assist" feature (which turns on 3 of Brawl's original 10 frames of global buffering)? If not, there's not really anything like that.

Why did you show me this thread it's awful.

 

[Mobes]

The health issue is why I'm almost afraid for Melee competative players in the next couple of years. No doubt it won't grow into a bigger issue.

 

[Runic_SSB]

Are you referring to the currently non-tourney legal "Input Assist" feature (which turns on 3 of Brawl's original 10 frames of global buffering)? If not, there's not really anything like that.

my b

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Add another to the list...

The King of Smash, Ken, is now taking an extensive break from Smash due to hand injuries.

Ken was not even considered to be an "active" player, much less is he considered one of the most technical players...

The situation is reminiscent of the original Mario Party. Remember how in the first Mario Party they had so many mini-games that involved spinning the stick? It was such a difficult maneuver that kids were ruining their hands, and they even released an official glove that was supported by Nintendo to be used with Mario Party. Future MP games saw the complete removal of mini-games that required that technique.

I liken that to Melee. The separation of high depth and complex maneuvers from the Smash series is an effort to make the series more approachable to people who actually care about their physical health, and/or are incapable of pushing themselves through physical pain in order to have fun.