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Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

Luco

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
9,232
Location
The isle of venom, Australia
NNID
dracilus
3DS FC
2638-1462-5558
Okay, I've seen some weird names, but this takes it.
OH if that's the #2 in China then I've met the guy. He's super cool, would be sick to see him give that region some exposure.

EVO Japan looks like it's going to be hype, but the seeding looks more than a little funky in some places. There's a ton of aussies going so def keep an eye out for Extra / Boozer / MM / Pazx / Joe / Tru4 (yes he's Australian now EU can't have him) and more.

On the topic of characters and hype, characters with slow, chess-like neutrals always piqued my interest the most, there's something fascinating to me about predicting the moment a Sonic bursts into the opponent's range or watching a Toon Link make use of every asset to force the opponent into a particular situation. I guess it's like where Falcon and Fox are concerned the match can be over in seconds to crazy shenanigans but the intentional, focused quietness of a zoner practicing their art always seemed more impressive somehow.

I'm a little weird, I know. Hi everyone!
 

Krysco

Aeon Hero
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
2,005
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
Krysco
3DS FC
2122-7731-1180
So my cousin was over for the weekend and before we went to Melee, we did some FG dubs in Sm4sh and I managed to pull this off:
For those that don't want to or can't watch, I got a fair -> fast fall -> footstool with Falco on Ganondorf.

Reason I'm bringing this up is first off just some curiosity if that's true for Falco or not but also, I looked up some videos of the much more documented and tested Fox version and one of the videos I watched mentioned how the fair is able to do that because the first 4 hits have an angle of 366 which is what results in the opponent following your direction of travel as you attack them. Got curious about that so I looked on Kuroganehammer and saw that a few other characters had aerials with that angle too.

1 :4fox: Fair (Hits 1-4) 7-8, 13-14, 19-20, 26-27 faf 50
2 :4dedede: Uair (Hits 1-6) 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22 faf 45
3 :4greninja: Uair (Hits 1-4) 7-8, 9-10, 11-12, 13-14 faf 42
5 :4megaman: Bair (Hits 1-2) 4, 7 faf 43
5 :4littlemac: Nair 2 faf 16
5 :4falco: Fair 10-27 faf 50
10 :4sheik: Uair 4-15 faf 44
12 :4miibrawl: Fair (Hit 1) 8-9 faf 45
16 :4metaknight: Bair (Hits 1-2) 7-8, 13-14 faf 52
17 :4bowserjr: Dair 15-38 faf 57
24 :4miisword: Fair (Hits 1-2) 11, 16 faf 47
30 :4pikachu:Bair (Hits 1-7) 4-5, 8-9, 12-13, 16-17, 20-21, 24-25, 28-29 faf 59
32 :4drmario: Dair 11-26 faf 52
36 :4darkpit::4pit: Fair (Hits 1-2) 11-12, 14-15 faf 47
38 :4miigun: Uair 18-37 faf 62
40 :4palutena: Nair 5-27 faf 52 Uair 8-23 faf 52
44 :4zelda: Nair (Hits 1-4) 6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19 faf 51
48 :4ness: Fair 8-18 faf 40
49 :4samus: Fair (Hits 2-4) 12-13, 18-19, 24-25 faf 60
51 :4yoshi: Bair (Hits 1-2) 11, 17 faf 56
54 :4gaw: Bair (Hits 1-3) 10-13, 14-17, 18-21 faf 40
55 :4kirby: Fair (Hit 2) 17-18 faf 48 Dair (Hits 1-5) 18-19, 21-22, 24-25, 27-28, 30-31 faf 55
56 :rosalina: Fair 11-25 faf 76
57 :4peach: Uair (Hit 1) 10, 11, 12-13 faf 46
Couple characters have it on specials too like Cloud Cross Slash, MK Mach Tornado and Bayo Witch Twist but since those alter your fall speed or put you into helpless, I shrugged them off. Luigi's Cyclone has it which is why he's able to gimp with it. Anyways, the order is from highest to lowest fall speed (hence the numbers beside the characters) but another thing I noticed when looking at all of those moves is that Fox's fair has the highest weight based knockback of them all at an astounding 120. Next closest was like 75 and that was only for one character.

I only did a little bit of testing with Falco, Samus and Zelda and got no consistent results but then I'm also bad. Even if some of these characters can pull this off, it doesn't mean much if they don't have set ups for it like Fox does.

Just wanted to post this to see if anyone knows more about it plus it provides a post where my signature will pop up which has my progress on that CCI project at the top.
 

MarioManTAW

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
843
So my cousin was over for the weekend and before we went to Melee, we did some FG dubs in Sm4sh and I managed to pull this off:
For those that don't want to or can't watch, I got a fair -> fast fall -> footstool with Falco on Ganondorf.

Reason I'm bringing this up is first off just some curiosity if that's true for Falco or not but also, I looked up some videos of the much more documented and tested Fox version and one of the videos I watched mentioned how the fair is able to do that because the first 4 hits have an angle of 366 which is what results in the opponent following your direction of travel as you attack them. Got curious about that so I looked on Kuroganehammer and saw that a few other characters had aerials with that angle too.

1 :4fox: Fair (Hits 1-4) 7-8, 13-14, 19-20, 26-27 faf 50
2 :4dedede: Uair (Hits 1-6) 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22 faf 45
3 :4greninja: Uair (Hits 1-4) 7-8, 9-10, 11-12, 13-14 faf 42
5 :4megaman: Bair (Hits 1-2) 4, 7 faf 43
5 :4littlemac: Nair 2 faf 16
5 :4falco: Fair 10-27 faf 50
10 :4sheik: Uair 4-15 faf 44
12 :4miibrawl: Fair (Hit 1) 8-9 faf 45
16 :4metaknight: Bair (Hits 1-2) 7-8, 13-14 faf 52
17 :4bowserjr: Dair 15-38 faf 57
24 :4miisword: Fair (Hits 1-2) 11, 16 faf 47
30 :4pikachu:Bair (Hits 1-7) 4-5, 8-9, 12-13, 16-17, 20-21, 24-25, 28-29 faf 59
32 :4drmario: Dair 11-26 faf 52
36 :4darkpit::4pit: Fair (Hits 1-2) 11-12, 14-15 faf 47
38 :4miigun: Uair 18-37 faf 62
40 :4palutena: Nair 5-27 faf 52 Uair 8-23 faf 52
44 :4zelda: Nair (Hits 1-4) 6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19 faf 51
48 :4ness: Fair 8-18 faf 40
49 :4samus: Fair (Hits 2-4) 12-13, 18-19, 24-25 faf 60
51 :4yoshi: Bair (Hits 1-2) 11, 17 faf 56
54 :4gaw: Bair (Hits 1-3) 10-13, 14-17, 18-21 faf 40
55 :4kirby: Fair (Hit 2) 17-18 faf 48 Dair (Hits 1-5) 18-19, 21-22, 24-25, 27-28, 30-31 faf 55
56 :rosalina: Fair 11-25 faf 76
57 :4peach: Uair (Hit 1) 10, 11, 12-13 faf 46
Couple characters have it on specials too like Cloud Cross Slash, MK Mach Tornado and Bayo Witch Twist but since those alter your fall speed or put you into helpless, I shrugged them off. Luigi's Cyclone has it which is why he's able to gimp with it. Anyways, the order is from highest to lowest fall speed (hence the numbers beside the characters) but another thing I noticed when looking at all of those moves is that Fox's fair has the highest weight based knockback of them all at an astounding 120. Next closest was like 75 and that was only for one character.

I only did a little bit of testing with Falco, Samus and Zelda and got no consistent results but then I'm also bad. Even if some of these characters can pull this off, it doesn't mean much if they don't have set ups for it like Fox does.

Just wanted to post this to see if anyone knows more about it plus it provides a post where my signature will pop up which has my progress on that CCI project at the top.
Intriguing. As for the special move variations, you may have discounted Cloud's too quickly, because Cross Slash to footstool has been done.
 

Krysco

Aeon Hero
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
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Ontario, Canada
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Krysco
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2122-7731-1180
Intriguing. As for the special move variations, you may have discounted Cloud's too quickly, because Cross Slash to footstool has been done.
Just checked and it's actually the first 2 hits of Limit Cross Slash that have the 366 angle. I have seen what you're talking about but that's due to only going for Cross Slash 1 or 2 and then predicting that your opponent will move towards you.
Pikachu can also Fair footstool.
I do recall Esam showing that off in a video which shows that the 366 angle isn't required but as a result, I don't believe you can drag down opponents anywhere near as well with Pika's fair.

Another thing to consider with moves like that is the frame gap between the last hit you connect with and the faf of the move. Like, if you land the first 4 hits of Fox's fair and then fast fall out, there's only 23 frames of waiting before you can double jump. Compare that to Rosalina's fair where the last 'autolink' hitbox is on frame 25 and you're then waiting 51 frames before you can do anything else.
 

NINTENDO Galaxy

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 29, 2016
Messages
906
Location
Texas
NNID
NINTEN_Galaxy
3DS FC
2836-0624-6177
Switch FC
SW 0903-5888-6097
It looked far from true to me. I think Ganon had enough time to airdodge, double jump, or throw out a move.
 

MarioManTAW

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
843
It looked far from true to me. I think Ganon had enough time to airdodge, double jump, or throw out a move.
Can't say for sure if he could have acted, but his double jump was already gone, so he didn't have that option (may have been what he was trying for).
 

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
Couple of notable upsets from the pre-G5 weekly tonight:

SuperSega :rosalina: > DarkShad :4ryu:
Tamushika :4duckhunt: 2-1 Ryo :4myfriends:
C4 :4wario: 2-0 Javi :4sheik: :4cloud2:
Agehasama :4lucas: 2-0 Ac :4metaknight:
Sharpyzard :4charizard: 2-1 Ac :4metaknight: (Ac out at 17th)

Check it out here: https://www.twitch.tv/showdowngg

Edit: Apparently SuperSega mains Rosa, Because that makes sense.
 
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The-Technique

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2016
Messages
613
Location
Maryland
NNID
luckysharm
Couple of notable upsets from the pre-G5 weekly tonight:

SuperSega :rosalina: > DarkShad :4ryu:
Tamushika :4duckhunt: 2-1 Ryo :4myfriends:
C4 :4wario: 2-0 Javi :4sheik: :4cloud2:
Agehasama :4lucas: 2-0 Ac :4metaknight:
Sharpyzard :4charizard: 2-1 Ac :4metaknight: (Ac out at 17th)

Check it out here: https://www.twitch.tv/showdowngg

Edit: Apparently SuperSega mains Rosa, Because that makes sense.
Now those are some upsets, especially Javi losing against C4. Not too surprised DarkShad dropped that set, Rosa is one of Ryu's hardest matchups.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,207
Couple of notable upsets from the pre-G5 weekly tonight:

SuperSega :rosalina: > DarkShad :4ryu:
Tamushika :4duckhunt: 2-1 Ryo :4myfriends:
C4 :4wario: 2-0 Javi :4sheik: :4cloud2:
Agehasama :4lucas: 2-0 Ac :4metaknight:
Sharpyzard :4charizard: 2-1 Ac :4metaknight: (Ac out at 17th)

Check it out here: https://www.twitch.tv/showdowngg

Edit: Apparently SuperSega mains Rosa, Because that makes sense.
AC needs to pick up the effort in order to find success in Genesis. Lucas x Falco isn't too bad of a matchup in Falco's point of view.
Also, apparently Javi needs to stay beefy for Genesis..... I'm......... sorry... [Edit: BSD has a player named C5, not C4. My B]
So my cousin was over for the weekend and before we went to Melee, we did some FG dubs in Sm4sh and I managed to pull this off:
For those that don't want to or can't watch, I got a fair -> fast fall -> footstool with Falco on Ganondorf.

Reason I'm bringing this up is first off just some curiosity if that's true for Falco or not but also, I looked up some videos of the much more documented and tested Fox version and one of the videos I watched mentioned how the fair is able to do that because the first 4 hits have an angle of 366 which is what results in the opponent following your direction of travel as you attack them. Got curious about that so I looked on Kuroganehammer and saw that a few other characters had aerials with that angle too.

1 :4fox: Fair (Hits 1-4) 7-8, 13-14, 19-20, 26-27 faf 50
2 :4dedede: Uair (Hits 1-6) 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22 faf 45
3 :4greninja: Uair (Hits 1-4) 7-8, 9-10, 11-12, 13-14 faf 42
5 :4megaman: Bair (Hits 1-2) 4, 7 faf 43
5 :4littlemac: Nair 2 faf 16
5 :4falco: Fair 10-27 faf 50
10 :4sheik: Uair 4-15 faf 44
12 :4miibrawl: Fair (Hit 1) 8-9 faf 45
16 :4metaknight: Bair (Hits 1-2) 7-8, 13-14 faf 52
17 :4bowserjr: Dair 15-38 faf 57
24 :4miisword: Fair (Hits 1-2) 11, 16 faf 47
30 :4pikachu:Bair (Hits 1-7) 4-5, 8-9, 12-13, 16-17, 20-21, 24-25, 28-29 faf 59
32 :4drmario: Dair 11-26 faf 52
36 :4darkpit::4pit: Fair (Hits 1-2) 11-12, 14-15 faf 47
38 :4miigun: Uair 18-37 faf 62
40 :4palutena: Nair 5-27 faf 52 Uair 8-23 faf 52
44 :4zelda: Nair (Hits 1-4) 6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19 faf 51
48 :4ness: Fair 8-18 faf 40
49 :4samus: Fair (Hits 2-4) 12-13, 18-19, 24-25 faf 60
51 :4yoshi: Bair (Hits 1-2) 11, 17 faf 56
54 :4gaw: Bair (Hits 1-3) 10-13, 14-17, 18-21 faf 40
55 :4kirby: Fair (Hit 2) 17-18 faf 48 Dair (Hits 1-5) 18-19, 21-22, 24-25, 27-28, 30-31 faf 55
56 :rosalina: Fair 11-25 faf 76
57 :4peach: Uair (Hit 1) 10, 11, 12-13 faf 46
Couple characters have it on specials too like Cloud Cross Slash, MK Mach Tornado and Bayo Witch Twist but since those alter your fall speed or put you into helpless, I shrugged them off. Luigi's Cyclone has it which is why he's able to gimp with it. Anyways, the order is from highest to lowest fall speed (hence the numbers beside the characters) but another thing I noticed when looking at all of those moves is that Fox's fair has the highest weight based knockback of them all at an astounding 120. Next closest was like 75 and that was only for one character.

I only did a little bit of testing with Falco, Samus and Zelda and got no consistent results but then I'm also bad. Even if some of these characters can pull this off, it doesn't mean much if they don't have set ups for it like Fox does.

Just wanted to post this to see if anyone knows more about it plus it provides a post where my signature will pop up which has my progress on that CCI project at the top.
Yeah. Fox's fair footstool is by far the the easiest and most consistent out of all of these by a considerable margin.
 
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Myollnir

Smash Ace
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
943
Location
Paris, France
That footstool was far from being guaranteed, but Falco players regularly use their F-air to trade with recoveries to gimp people.
 

NINTENDO Galaxy

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 29, 2016
Messages
906
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Texas
NNID
NINTEN_Galaxy
3DS FC
2836-0624-6177
Switch FC
SW 0903-5888-6097
Agehasama got 4th place I believe. He did very well.
 

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
Smash of the Titans 58 (163 Entrants) (NorCal)

1st: Ally :4mario:
2nd: Legit :4diddy:
3rd: Eon :4fox:
4th: Agehasama :4lucas:
5th: DSS :4metaknight:
5th: DKHo :4sheik:
7th: Tamushika :4duckhunt:
7th: Javi :4sheik: :4cloud2:
 

JustCallMeJon

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
1,072
Location
Editing posts after posting posts...
3DS FC
3067-7373-5050
Switch FC
SW 4274 8573 0226

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
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NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
Is it a mistake or something because nietono has a score of 644.82 but the one player that is below to Nietono, Eon, has a score of 689.05
It's just a graphic error, his score should be 692.29
 

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
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Freezie does the graphic work and iirc will be correcting the errors for an imgur album after the ranking is finished
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Call me crazy, but if Doctor Mario's results exploded, he would be a mid tier. That recovery and mobility is sluggish, but in my eyes he has potential. The problem is, nobody has the guts to play him because he is Mario but his flaws are a lot worse. Doctor Mario can still reflect projectiles with cape and back air is good.
Doctor Mario will probably stay in bottom ten, but in my eyes he is not in bottom ten.
 

MercuryPenny

Smash Journeyman
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May 17, 2017
Messages
278
NNID
MemorialDime
dr mario probs deserves to be on the lower end of mid tier with falco. they both have unique strengths and playstyles that are weighed down by horrible mobility and somehow worse disadvantage states (granted, in dr mario's case it's only really bad once he's offstage)
 

Nu~

Smash Dreamer
Joined
Jun 22, 2012
Messages
4,332
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U.S., Maryland (Eastern Time, UTC - 5hrs)
NNID
EquinoXYZ
dr mario probs deserves to be on the lower end of mid tier with falco. they both have unique strengths and playstyles that are weighed down by horrible mobility and somehow worse disadvantage states (granted, in dr mario's case it's only really bad once he's offstage)
Kinda feel like falco’s mobility issues are often overstated. Dude has some of the best vertical mobility in the game with an excellent jump height and ascension speed.

His ground mobility ain’t too shabby either. 8th best walk speed, really quick extended dash dance, average dash to shield, and his perfect pivot complements his tilts nicely (retreating Dtilt and PP Utilt anti-airs? noiiice).

His speed and ability to chase is awful, but his overall mobility is pretty good.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,912
Location
Colorado
Call me crazy, but if Doctor Mario's results exploded, he would be a mid tier. That recovery and mobility is sluggish, but in my eyes he has potential. The problem is, nobody has the guts to play him because he is Mario but his flaws are a lot worse. Doctor Mario can still reflect projectiles with cape and back air is good.
Doctor Mario will probably stay in bottom ten, but in my eyes he is not in bottom ten.
:4drmario: is a prime example of being low tier not because he's trash but because other mid-tiers are better. The thing about DrM being mid tier is he'd be ranked with Mac, Roy and Charizard and imo he's not that good.

Mario's core game still applies to Dr but his changes all work against it. Mario's a rounded mix-up and combo fighter who uses his versatility and mobility to work around his bad range. Dr trades slightly more damaging hits for significantly worse air/walk/run speed, lower upB and shorter jumps. The higher damage is a double edged sword with better trades/stray hits but smaller combo/chain windows, further reduced by poor mobility. I played this MU yesterday actually. Mario slightly beats Link and dr goes even or slightly loses. Mario is much better at approaching when his run isn't slower than Link's run. Poor mobility has a huge impact on Dr's whole ground game; he can be very dangerous when he gets in still. Transfer that over to MUs like Cloud and Dr looks terrible. Dr's worse upB/jumps/air speed/no cape stalling recovery with the same weight as Mario drops his survival potential and tornado barely makes it better. His MU spread is basically Mario's with .5-1 point worse MUs everywhere; I'm skeptical of supposed better MUs like Pika.

Dr keeps Mario's CQC prowess but deserves the several tiers of difference between he and his counterpart.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,207
dr mario probs deserves to be on the lower end of mid tier with falco. they both have unique strengths and playstyles that are weighed down by horrible mobility and somehow worse disadvantage states (granted, in dr mario's case it's only really bad once he's offstage)
The thing about both Falco and Dr. Mario is that while both have some good strengths, they have unique weaknesses. It is not just direct weaknesses like most of the other characters, but suffers from something argubly worse: weaknesses that directly affect the character's own strengths that either holds those strengths back or outright negates them. I also noticed that other characters that are considered underrated (such as Roy, Lucas, and formerly Yoshi) suffers from this rather overlooked trait.
Dr. Mario's position is relatively accurate, and I would say Falco's is too, although he can probably rise very slightly further due to possessing niche even to slightly advantage matchups against some zoning based characters ranked above him (which is actually how he rose above Bowser Jr. in the first place :)).
:4drmario: is a prime example of being low tier not because he's trash but because other mid-tiers are better. The thing about DrM being mid tier is he'd be ranked with Mac, Roy and Charizard and imo he's not that good.

Mario's core game still applies to Dr but his changes all work against it. Mario's a rounded mix-up and combo fighter who uses his versatility and mobility to work around his bad range. Dr trades slightly more damaging hits for significantly worse air/walk/run speed, lower upB and shorter jumps. The higher damage is a double edged sword with better trades/stray hits but smaller combo/chain windows, further reduced by poor mobility. I played this MU yesterday actually. Mario slightly beats Link and dr goes even or slightly loses. Mario is much better at approaching when his run isn't slower than Link's run. Poor mobility has a huge impact on Dr's whole ground game; he can be very dangerous when he gets in still. Transfer that over to MUs like Cloud and Dr looks terrible. Dr's worse upB/jumps/air speed/no cape stalling recovery with the same weight as Mario drops his survival potential and tornado barely makes it better. His MU spread is basically Mario's with .5-1 point worse MUs everywhere; I'm skeptical of supposed better MUs like Pika.

Dr keeps Mario's CQC prowess but deserves the several tiers of difference between he and his counterpart.
EDIT: The poor mobility of Dr. Mario is also translated off stage as well. His tornado is simply a worse version of Luigi's. While the move sends opponents horizontally and is easier to mash, it covers less distance, has less range, more endlag (which harms both it's offstage and onstage utility), and less gimping potential (it doesn't mean it's useless though, but it could've been better). Trust me: when I equipped Dr. Mario with the Soaring Tornado custom, it is hard to turn back to default....
 
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Myollnir

Smash Ace
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
943
Location
Paris, France
There is absolutely no way that :4drmario: is mid tier. Mid tier characters are decent/close to viable in this game. Doc is not.

:4mario: already struggles to keep up in the neutral against the top tiers, due to his lack of range. His only way to get in is to abuse his really good aerial mobility to pressure with short hops (usually with a B-air) and possibilty cross up after it.

:4drmario:can't even use another B-air after a SH B-air, and his airspeed is trash so he can't be as threatening as :4mario: when he leaves the ground.
How is he going to win the neutral? His only options are dash + shield, cross-up roll and what, RAR B-air? It can be punished by some characters even when retreating. Landing B-air should be safe on block, but it's too slow / obvious. I've seen some players use SH + wavebounce cape, which is pretty smart, but that's not gonna help the doc.

:4mario:also dislikes getting platform camped, but at least he can still beat this and that even gives him some time to charge his F.L.U.D.D.
:4drmario:has absolutely no way to counter it, and even if he gets a hit on someone on a platform, he won't be able to follow-up like :4mario:.

Additionally, his UpB is atrocious as a recovery, no intangibility, small distance, combined with his poor mobility and without the ability to stall with cape to mix-up, we have one of the worst recoveries in the game (probably bottom 5). The Tornado helps a bit, but really not much. :4drmario: will consistently die from edgeguards.

:4drmario: suffers from the same mobility problems as :4kirby:. Mobility is crucial in most games, and Smash4 is no exception to the rule. The only way to somewhat make up for a lack of mobility is range or absurd rewards.

In terms of range, his only decent move is B-air (same as :4mario:). It's actually pretty good, but it won't keep up against other aerial pokes (:4cloud:,:4bayonetta:,:4zss:...) Nothing too fancy here.

So, how much damage can he get when he does manage to find an opening? When he gets a grab, quite a lot, actually, but nowhere as much as :4luigi:, unfortunately. Actually, :4mario:even has better rewards most of the time, due to having a superior combo game.

:4drmario:will get some decent damage by doing D-Throw (U-Throw situationally) to U-Smash and can possibly keep going from there, since the opponent will land close to Doc. I believe he can even get like 60-70% on a handful characters with a footstool, but I've never seen it in tournament so I'm unsure if it's guaranteed & practical.
When the % gets higher, he will only be able to get one or two aerials off of a D-Throw.
:4drmario:does have a good kill set up in terms of D-Throw + F-air, but it doesn't work against the whole cast and kills off the side, so it's less consistent than a hoo hah. Its window is also pretty narrow, which means that with some rage, it'll often become a 50-50.
He has some good kill potential with B-Throw and U-Smash, but unfortunately, despite being stronger than Mario's, his U-Smash will usually kill later due to its angle. Yeah, even in kill potential the Doc gets the short end of the stick.

:4drmario:is however pretty good against his disabled friends, making him a solid choice in Low Tier tournaments.

There's still no future for this character in real tournaments, his terrible range, mobility & recovery hinders him way too much and his combos & kill set ups are not even close to outweighing his flaws, and even then, :4mario:is superior in every department.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
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There is absolutely no way that :4drmario: is mid tier. Mid tier characters are decent/close to viable in this game. Doc is not.

:4mario: already struggles to keep up in the neutral against the top tiers, due to his lack of range. His only way to get in is to abuse his really good aerial mobility to pressure with short hops (usually with a B-air) and possibilty cross up after it.

:4drmario:can't even use another B-air after a SH B-air, and his airspeed is trash so he can't be as threatening as :4mario: when he leaves the ground.
How is he going to win the neutral? His only options are dash + shield, cross-up roll and what, RAR B-air? It can be punished by some characters even when retreating. Landing B-air should be safe on block, but it's too slow / obvious. I've seen some players use SH + wavebounce cape, which is pretty smart, but that's not gonna help the doc.

:4mario:also dislikes getting platform camped, but at least he can still beat this and that even gives him some time to charge his F.L.U.D.D.
:4drmario:has absolutely no way to counter it, and even if he gets a hit on someone on a platform, he won't be able to follow-up like :4mario:.

Additionally, his UpB is atrocious as a recovery, no intangibility, small distance, combined with his poor mobility and without the ability to stall with cape to mix-up, we have one of the worst recoveries in the game (probably bottom 5). The Tornado helps a bit, but really not much. :4drmario: will consistently die from edgeguards.

:4drmario: suffers from the same mobility problems as :4kirby:. Mobility is crucial in most games, and Smash4 is no exception to the rule. The only way to somewhat make up for a lack of mobility is range or absurd rewards.

In terms of range, his only decent move is B-air (same as :4mario:). It's actually pretty good, but it won't keep up against other aerial pokes (:4cloud:,:4bayonetta:,:4zss:...) Nothing too fancy here.

So, how much damage can he get when he does manage to find an opening? When he gets a grab, quite a lot, actually, but nowhere as much as :4luigi:, unfortunately. Actually, :4mario:even has better rewards most of the time, due to having a superior combo game.

:4drmario:will get some decent damage by doing D-Throw (U-Throw situationally) to U-Smash and can possibly keep going from there, since the opponent will land close to Doc. I believe he can even get like 60-70% on a handful characters with a footstool, but I've never seen it in tournament so I'm unsure if it's guaranteed & practical.
When the % gets higher, he will only be able to get one or two aerials off of a D-Throw.
:4drmario:does have a good kill set up in terms of D-Throw + F-air, but it doesn't work against the whole cast and kills off the side, so it's less consistent than a hoo hah. Its window is also pretty narrow, which means that with some rage, it'll often become a 50-50.
He has some good kill potential with B-Throw and U-Smash, but unfortunately, despite being stronger than Mario's, his U-Smash will usually kill later due to its angle. Yeah, even in kill potential the Doc gets the short end of the stick.

:4drmario:is however pretty good against his disabled friends, making him a solid choice in Low Tier tournaments.

There's still no future for this character in real tournaments, his terrible range, mobility & recovery hinders him way too much and his combos & kill set ups are not even close to outweighing his flaws, and even then, :4mario:is superior in every department.
Not to mention that his representation is among the most sparse in the entire game, even worse than notably Ganondorf. He is ranked higher than him due to his strengths in comparison to Ganon, but this character wasn't looking very good at all ever since the second official tier list. :(
 
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Lord Dio

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even worse than notably Ganondorf.
Gonna object tot his one. Rizeasu is probably doc's only notable top player, and iirc somebody mapped out who he used in the tokaigi qualifier and doc was only there for iirc one person, whereas you have Ganon who has representatives who are a little more-well known, including Gungnir who placed 17th at an Umebura, solo ganon, and took out kept and Earth.
Ganon definitely has more top rep than Doc.
 

WiFi

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Either way, both Doc and Ganon are almost completely irrelevant in the meta. Ganon is a much worse Captain Falcon and Doc is a much worse Mario. Their spots on the tier list make perfect sense.
 
D

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Honestly, Falco needs to go to mid tier in my opinion as well.
Sure that speed is garbage, but he has a top fifty player running him at least and he has better results than say.... ( Doc ).
Also that recovery is pretty good and his has an arguably underestimated air game. If Falco's speed and down air were buffed; high tier or top tier easily. Falco's mobility is not bad, it is just his speed overall.
 

Lord Dio

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Either way, both Doc and Ganon are almost completely irrelevant in the meta. Ganon is a much worse Captain Falcon and Doc is a much worse Mario. Their spots on the tier list make perfect sense.
Right......and yet so wrong. Irrelevant should not be used for any character in the game, this kind of thought leads to underestimation of the opponent and/or not knowing the matchup, and that leads to upsets.
See: Rizeasu beating someone at the tokaii qualifier with doc, and beating people with shulk, same for kome beating people with shulk, the above Gungnir result, Komota beating Ally, Whiteout's performance, Zaki playing King Dedede

There is no irrelevant character in this game, that mindset needs to die.
 
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