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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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YerTheBestAROUND

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Sheik objectively struggles to kill against players that know what they are doing and are able to avoid edgeguards (which is admittedly character dependent). The video is a testament to how much Sheik can leverage her big and devoted playerbase/technicians to compensate for her issues, but it also speaks to the greater issue. Like Duck Hunt, except with exponentially more talent investment, she has developed all of these very specific and detailed setups in order to compensate for a lack of raw kill power.

She has to consistently and repeatedly outplay players in footsies to get into one of those setup positions, whereas almost every other character in the entire game can throw out a random kill and punish her the one time she makes a mistake. This is why people keep claiming that all of the heavies that have 7/3 matchups against Sonic and Pikachu (who I'd consider the two closest top tiers to Sheik in nature) have close to even matchups against Sheik. They can get bodied the entire game 90% of the time then land that one grab and end it then and there.

She's very clearly one of the best characters in the game, but she also has the lowest tolerance for for mistakes by a noticeable margin. It's unrealistic to always expect a top Sheik player to always outplay another similarly skilled top player 70% of the time in a given set.

It's also important to take into account how tied in she is to her up air.

If the dev's had made up-air just flat up not kill until 180% instead of the 1.1.5 changes, she would have dropped like a Luigi rock, as opposed to dropping from definitive 1st to definitive top 3.

For what it's worth though I am glad that for once a character got nerfed in a way that still preserved most of what they were and still left them with the tools to compete at the highest level.
Except it's Sheik, so she doesn't have to consistently outplay because it's likely she's already winning/won neutral anyway. She's not even that tied to up air, she's more tied to bouncing fish. And if Sheiks struggle to kill against players that know what they're doing then why are we seeing VoiD kill around 130% rather consistently? Does that really sound like struggling? And not all characters need raw kill power. Diddy Kong does dtilt to a smash attack. Weak hit to strong hit. Ryu does d/utilt to Shoryu. Weak hit to strong hit. You don't need raw kill power when you can safely combo/string into your stronger attacks.
 
D

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Another thing to consider is if that said underrated character can keep the good results. When was the last time :4drmario::4samus::4kirby:did anything at all? Their hype ***** off ages ago. Characters like :4lucas::4robinf::4marth:are living up to their hype, and some of the lower characters are getting more respect due to continuing good performances :4link::4shulk::4palutena::4littlemac:etc. Others are just a mess :4peach::4lucina::4pit::4myfriends::4pacman:
Why is Lucina being lumped there when she got top 32 at both Shine and Collision on solo runs thanks to Kogarasuma in recent times? Pit has still been doing extremely well thanks to Earth, I don't know how you can just scoff 9th place at EVO along with him placing high in numerous Japanese majors.

Also, :4drmario:'s case is more or less being outclassed by Mario rather than him being an actually poor character. At least to me anyway.
 
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FamilyTeam

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Another thing to consider is if that said underrated character can keep the good results. When was the last time :4drmario::4samus::4kirby:did anything at all? Their hype ***** off ages ago. Characters like :4lucas::4robinf::4marth:are living up to their hype, and some of the lower characters are getting more respect due to continuing good performances :4link::4shulk::4palutena::4littlemac:etc. Others are just a mess :4peach::4lucina::4pit::4myfriends::4pacman:
I haven't seen a good Pit or Pacman in ages. Lucina's results are frankly nothing short of a bloody mess. She only had achievements here and there before Koga. I hope he keeps it up, I really trust him.
Also, Dath. I wanna see more Dath. I hadn't rooted that hard for someone ever since Ally won his first major with Mario.
 

Mega-Spider

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As a Kirby player, it really does suck knowing that not much has been done with the character for a while. I mean, Kirby players do exist, and some of them are pretty decent, but they're so few and far between it's easy to forget about them. I'd love to see Kirby go through a Shulk-like situation where he actually starts getting decent results. However because the Kirby mains are some of the most pessimistic people I've seen in this community, I doubt that will ever happen.
 

DunnoBro

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Kirby's just so simple, the only avenues of meta exploration left are crouch and ability stuff. Maybe ledge coverage with inhale.

Overall though, it seems like mk is the floaty killer and kirby is the fast faller slayer. (And dedede's the floaty fast faller)
 

Mega-Spider

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Kirby's just so simple, the only avenues of meta exploration left are crouch and ability stuff. Maybe ledge coverage with inhale.

Overall though, it seems like mk is the floaty killer and kirby is the fast faller slayer. (And dedede's the floaty fast faller)
A couple of Kirby mains (myself included) have been trying to use Copy Abilities more to see if we can use them to help give us an edge over our opponents. Some abilities like Charge Shot, Monado Arts, Bonus Fruit, Pikmin Throw, and Metal Blade are some of Kirby's best abilities, some even turning the MU around into his favor.
 

FamilyTeam

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A couple of Kirby mains (myself included) have been trying to use Copy Abilities more to see if we can use them to help give us an edge over our opponents. Some abilities like Charge Shot, Monado Arts, Bonus Fruit, Pikmin Throw, and Metal Blade are some of Kirby's best abilities, some even turning the MU around into his favor.
I have to wonder: How useful is it to him to copy moves like Shield Breaker, Needles, Shadow Ball and Pit's Arrows? I'd reckon it's useful, but would they change the MU in any way?
 

AWildCedricAppeared

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There is actually lots of unknown tech that Kirby has, different jab locks with up-tilt and falling up-air, like what Mega-Spider said, copy ability kill confirms, jab lock setups, combos, and shield break setups. There's his jab edge cancel, HUP cancel, HUP shield drop cancel, and of course, his combos. There is so many combos that Kirby has and he doesn't get the recognition for it. All people know are like f-throw to f-air and that's it, when there is stuff like f-throw<FastFall Up-air<Reverse Up-tilt<Up-tilt strings which is a true combo on every character (except for lighter characters in which case you don't fast fall. ) Then, instead of reverse up-tilting he could go to a down-tilt trip, which can lead to n-air<f-throw<jumping f-air. Most of these combos can branch off into more, resulting in more variety and damage, I have a hard time listing them all.
 

Mega-Spider

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I have to wonder: How useful is it to him to copy moves like Shield Breaker, Needles, Shadow Ball and Pit's Arrows? I'd reckon it's useful, but would they change the MU in any way?
Shield Breaker: It's one of those abilities that's more situational to use, but it doesn't hurt to get it. If you can get a shield break on Marth or Lucina, it could really help in the long run.

Needles: An incredible spacing tool and can combo from a F-Throw at certain percentages.

Shadow Ball: I like to use Shadow Balls more for creating space rather than trying to get a kill from it. It's possible to kill Mewtwo with it, but since he has a reflector and can counter Kirby pretty hard, use it to create space instead.

Arrows (Pit): Once again, it's a situational ability that can be helpful to snipe Pit if you can control them. This is one of the tougher abilities to get the hang of and it's not that great overall, but it gives Kirby a decent edgeguarding tool and a way for him to create space.

More often than not, the Copy Abilities will give Kirby an option that can help at certain points, but won't turn the tide of a match into his favor. The ones I mentioned with the exception of Metal Blade are some of the Copy Abilities that turn the tide into his favor. Some really help with Kirby's neutral, which is pretty bad, so if you can get an ability like Fireballs or Shadow Ball, go for it to create some space.
 

L9999

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Why is Lucina being lumped there when she got top 32 at both Shine and Collision on solo runs thanks to Kogarasuma in recent times? Pit has still been doing extremely well thanks to Earth, I don't know how you can just scoff 9th place at EVO along with him placing high in numerous Japanese majors.

Also, :4drmario:'s case is more or less being outclassed by Mario rather than him being an actually poor character. At least to me anyway.
By mess I mean the results exist and the character has good options, but when they are mentioned they get bombarded by naysayers (Peach sucks, but the tipper!, who plays Pit?) among other comments. No surprise, all of them are unpopular picks.
 

AWildCedricAppeared

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As a Kirby player, it really does suck knowing that not much has been done with the character for a while. I mean, Kirby players do exist, and some of them are pretty decent, but they're so few and far between it's easy to forget about them. I'd love to see Kirby go through a Shulk-like situation where he actually starts getting decent results. However because the Kirby mains are some of the most pessimistic people I've seen in this community, I doubt that will ever happen.
I believe that Kirby can do better, I'm a loyal Kirby main and I'm not pessimistic. I think he has the tools and combos to be a viable characters, and it's my job as a Kirby main to show it. And I don't think he needs a buff, I just think he needs to be recognized.
 

Ninety

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Gotta ask, where did this "Lucario is top tier/top 15" thing come from all of a sudden? Did he get some incredible results that I missed recently? I can't seem to find Das Koopa's 1.1.6 results list at the moment, but the last I checked his results were good, but far from extraordinary. I'd say it's because of ZeRo's tier list (man, the dude has an influence on the community), but some other top players started to do so as well.

So, what did I miss? What has changed for the furry bait in order to starting to be considered better than 43 other characters?
 

ShadowGuy1

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Gotta ask, where did this "Lucario is top tier/top 15" thing come from all of a sudden? Did he get some incredible results that I missed recently? I can't seem to find Das Koopa's 1.1.6 results list at the moment, but the last I checked his results were good, but far from extraordinary. I'd say it's because of ZeRo's tier list (man, the dude has an influence on the community), but some other top players started to do so as well.

So, what did I miss? What has changed for the furry bait in order to starting to be considered better than 43 other characters?
Top 24 at both EVO and SSC, gets top 8 results a good chunk of the time with Motsunabe and Tsu as well.
 

Mega-Spider

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Kirby beats Sheik very solidly after copy. I'd say it's almost 6:4 his favour.
Against aggressive Sheiks, yes. You think this still holds true for patient Sheiks? Personally, I don't think that's the case, but having Needles is great regardless.
 

FeelMeUp

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Sheik can't needlecamp Kirby anymore after copy. He ducks under her needles and shoots back while she can't do the same.
 

Gildiss

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Not even Sheik can get around needles easily. They move so fast and travel far.
 
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D

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Izaw has released The Art of :4feroy:.

Pretty phenomenal guide all-around, it's nice to see the character getting some needed exposure.
 

Ethan7

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Izaw always makes high quality guides. It be nice to see Roy get some more representation, but it'd be more rewarding to play a top tier character.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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I can see Roy being a lot better than he is right now but not with his current representation. People always talk about that one tech that could make a bottom tier character actually viable as if its some mythical nonsense but Roy made it a reality. Being able to slide halfway across the stage just by turning around or walking is something that can't be overlooked. This is also true for Link, Hylian Shield can be one of the most broken tools in the game if people start abusing it
 

Nobie

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I think it's worth pointing out that Lucario's neutral also gets stronger as his aura grows. More damage per hit means longer shield stun, which means things that would have worked on him 50% ago won't work now.
 

Megamang

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This gives him an actual blockstring right? Nair to grab is inescapable once he had enough aura, ive heard.

Can't overlook that.

And if you look at top player tier list as a list of who they think is likely to ruin their bracket run, his place makes more sense. But as likelihood to win the tournament, i dont see it.
 

Phan7om

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There is actually lots of unknown tech that Kirby has... There is so many combos that Kirby has and he doesn't get the recognition for it. All people know are like f-throw to f-air and that's it.
Just wanted to point out that this is very true, Kirby has a great deal of tricks, tech, combos, etc. that most people straight up overlook. All people see him as is a pink ball that can mash Utilt juggle fastfallers, does simple grabs and Dair combos a lot, and ducks stuff sometimes. His weaknesses are still very significant and keep him from being a good character... but its nutty how people rarely see past his easy bnbs and 2014 tactics unless they have personal experience with him.

Edit: This is probably true with a majority of underused characters, im just using Kirby here since he's the character I know the best.
 
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Nu~

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Just wanted to point out that this is very true, Kirby has a great deal of tricks, tech, combos, etc. that most people straight up overlook. All people see him as is a pink ball that can mash Utilt juggle fastfallers, does simple grabs and Dair combos a lot, and ducks stuff sometimes. His weaknesses are still very significant and keep him from being a good character... but its nutty how people rarely see past his easy bnbs and 2014 tactics unless they have personal experience with him.

Edit: This is probably true with a majority of underused characters, im just using Kirby here since he's the character I know the best.
Well can you give some examples of the tech, tricks, and combos that Kirby has?
 

Megamang

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ESAM's video was good. I did notice a bit of pika bias when he said to just go to the ledge; characters without QA cant afford to go to the ledge so easily.

Some megaman love too! Watching some recent stream, it seemed like diddy had some trouble with DHD. Honestly that makes a ton of sense to me but i dont want to really push the idea cause i dont know anything about DHD. DunnoBro DunnoBro opinion on diddy vs DHD?
 
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Das Koopa

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TBH6 entrant list is out

I've probably missed a bunch but here's a big list of notables

U.S.A:

Northern Atlantic: (Tristate, New England, MD/VA)
ZeRo
Nairo
Dabuz
ANTi
Pink Fresh
Marss
Mr. E
Tweek
6WX
Seagull Joe
Craftis
Pugwest
NAKAT
DKWill
Mister Eric
San
Logic
Raffi-X
WaDi
Remzi
James
Biddy
Puppeh
Shofu

Western US: (SoCal, NorCal, Vegas, PNW, etc.)
VoiD
Larry Lurr
Rich Brown
K9
JK
Zex
Z
Aarvark


Southeast: (GA, Florida, etc.)
Mew2King
ESAM
MVD
Day
Dyr
Static Manny
Saj
Wrath
True Blue
Nick Riddle
TheReflexWonder
Fatality
Rango
Myran
Jester
Wizzrobe
Hungrybox

South: (Texas, Louisiana, etc)
Samsora
Captain Zack
Cosmos
Brawlman1k
Megafox
Karna

Midwest:
Zinoto
Ned
Rayquaza07
Ksev
DarkShad
JJROCKETS
MJG
Miloni
Tyroy
Big_mak
Smasher1001
Triple R
Sofa King
Krow
Regralht
Colinies
Viev


Canada:
Ally
SuperGirlKels
Blacktwins
Iceninja
Poke
Chrim Foish
Pokecheese

Japan:
Abadango
Kamemushi
Komorikiri
Nasubi
Ri-ma
Kie
Shogun
FILIP

Europe:
Sodrek

There's still one EU player to qualify, bets on it being Mr. R.
 
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Drifting

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TBH6 entrant list is out

I've probably missed a bunch but here's a big list of notables

U.S.A:

Northern Atlantic: (Tristate, New England, MD/VA)
ZeRo
Nairo
Dabuz
ANTi
Pink Fresh
Marss
Mr. E
Tweek
6WX
Seagull Joe
Craftis
Pugwest
NAKAT
DKWill
Mister Eric
San
Logic
Raffi-X
WaDi
Remzi
James
Biddy
Puppeh
Shofu

Western US: (SoCal, NorCal, Vegas, PNW, etc.)
VoiD
Larry Lurr
Rich Brown
K9
JK
Zex
Z
Aarvark


Southeast: (GA, Florida, etc.)
Mew2King
ESAM
MVD
Day
Dyr
Static Manny
Saj
Wrath
True Blue
Nick Riddle
TheReflexWonder
Fatality
Rango
Myran
Jester
Wizzrobe
Hungrybox

South: (Texas, Louisiana, etc)
Samsora
Captain Zack
Cosmos
Brawlman1k
Megafox
Karna

Midwest:
Zinoto
Ned
Rayquaza07
Ksev
DarkShad
JJROCKETS
MJG
Miloni
Tyroy
Big_mak
Smasher1001
Triple R
Sofa King
Krow
Regralht
Colinies
Viev


Canada:
Ally
SuperGirlKels
Blacktwins
Iceninja
Poke
Chrim Foish
Pokecheese

Japan:
Abadango
Kamemushi
Komorikiri
Nasubi
Ri-ma
Kie
Shogun
FILIP

Europe:
Sodrek

There's still one EU player to qualify, bets on it being Mr. R.
Listed void twice

EDIT: Ninja'd by Gheb
 
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ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
TBH6 entrant list is out

I've probably missed a bunch but here's a big list of notables

U.S.A:

Northern Atlantic: (Tristate, New England, MD/VA)
ZeRo
Nairo
Dabuz
ANTi
Pink Fresh
Marss
Mr. E
Tweek
6WX
Seagull Joe
Craftis
Pugwest
NAKAT
DKWill
Mister Eric
San
Logic
Raffi-X
WaDi
Remzi
James
Biddy
Puppeh
Shofu

Western US: (SoCal, NorCal, Vegas, PNW, etc.)
VoiD
Larry Lurr
Rich Brown
K9
JK
Zex
Z
Aarvark


Southeast: (GA, Florida, etc.)
Mew2King
ESAM
MVD
Day
Dyr
Static Manny
Saj
Wrath
True Blue
Nick Riddle
TheReflexWonder
Fatality
Rango
Myran
Jester
Wizzrobe
Hungrybox

South: (Texas, Louisiana, etc)
Samsora
Captain Zack
Cosmos
Brawlman1k
Megafox
Karna

Midwest:
Zinoto
Ned
Rayquaza07
Ksev
DarkShad
JJROCKETS
MJG
Miloni
Tyroy
Big_mak
Smasher1001
Triple R
Sofa King
Krow
Regralht
Colinies
Viev


Canada:
Ally
SuperGirlKels
Blacktwins
Iceninja
Poke
Chrim Foish
Pokecheese

Japan:
Abadango
Kamemushi
Komorikiri
Nasubi
Ri-ma
Kie
Shogun
FILIP

Europe:
Sodrek

There's still one EU player to qualify, bets on it being Mr. R.
I would just like to note that you are missing Ryuga in the Midwest sections.
 

Fenny

Smash Ace
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
584
TBH6 entrant list is out

I've probably missed a bunch but here's a big list of notables

U.S.A:

Northern Atlantic: (Tristate, New England, MD/VA)
ZeRo
Nairo
Dabuz
ANTi
Pink Fresh
Marss
Mr. E
Tweek
6WX
Seagull Joe
Craftis
Pugwest
NAKAT
DKWill
Mister Eric
San
Logic
Raffi-X
WaDi
Remzi
James
Biddy
Puppeh
Shofu

Western US: (SoCal, NorCal, Vegas, PNW, etc.)
VoiD
Larry Lurr
Rich Brown
K9
JK
Zex
Z
Aarvark


Southeast: (GA, Florida, etc.)
Mew2King
ESAM
MVD
Day
Dyr
Static Manny
Saj
Wrath
True Blue
Nick Riddle
TheReflexWonder
Fatality
Rango
Myran
Jester
Wizzrobe
Hungrybox

South: (Texas, Louisiana, etc)
Samsora
Captain Zack
Cosmos
Brawlman1k
Megafox
Karna

Midwest:
Zinoto
Ned
Rayquaza07
Ksev
DarkShad
JJROCKETS
MJG
Miloni
Tyroy
Big_mak
Smasher1001
Triple R
Sofa King
Krow
Regralht
Colinies
Viev


Canada:
Ally
SuperGirlKels
Blacktwins
Iceninja
Poke
Chrim Foish
Pokecheese

Japan:
Abadango
Kamemushi
Komorikiri
Nasubi
Ri-ma
Kie
Shogun
FILIP

Europe:
Sodrek

There's still one EU player to qualify, bets on it being Mr. R.
This is looking absolutely crazy.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
TBH6 entrant list is out

I've probably missed a bunch but here's a big list of notables

U.S.A:

Northern Atlantic: (Tristate, New England, MD/VA)
ZeRo
Nairo
Dabuz
ANTi
Pink Fresh
Marss
Mr. E
Tweek
6WX
Seagull Joe
Craftis
Pugwest
NAKAT
DKWill
Mister Eric
San
Logic
Raffi-X
WaDi
Remzi
James
Biddy
Puppeh
Shofu

Western US: (SoCal, NorCal, Vegas, PNW, etc.)
VoiD
Larry Lurr
Rich Brown
K9
JK
Zex
Z
Aarvark


Southeast: (GA, Florida, etc.)
Mew2King
ESAM
MVD
Day
Dyr
Static Manny
Saj
Wrath
True Blue
Nick Riddle
TheReflexWonder
Fatality
Rango
Myran
Jester
Wizzrobe
Hungrybox

South: (Texas, Louisiana, etc)
Samsora
Captain Zack
Cosmos
Brawlman1k
Megafox
Karna

Midwest:
Zinoto
Ned
Rayquaza07
Ksev
DarkShad
JJROCKETS
MJG
Miloni
Tyroy
Big_mak
Smasher1001
Triple R
Sofa King
Krow
Regralht
Colinies
Viev


Canada:
Ally
SuperGirlKels
Blacktwins
Iceninja
Poke
Chrim Foish
Pokecheese

Japan:
Abadango
Kamemushi
Komorikiri
Nasubi
Ri-ma
Kie
Shogun
FILIP

Europe:
Sodrek

There's still one EU player to qualify, bets on it being Mr. R.
>No FOW
R.I.P the dream :4ness:
 
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