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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Jjab430

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Not sure where this newfound optimism by Sonic players is coming from. KEN's win at Umebura SAT was obviously impressive but the character hasn't even placed top 8 at a major since Paragon LA—nearly an entire year ago. You'd think that with a matchup spread like that and the large player base that he has, he'd be able to make it farther on the biggest stage and do it consistently.
 
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YerTheBestAROUND

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Not sure where this newfound optimism by Sonic players is coming from. KEN's win at Umebura SAT was obviously impressive but the character hasn't even placed top 8 at a major since Paragon LA—nearly an entire year ago. You'd think that with a matchup spread like that and the large player base that he has, he'd be able to make it farther on the biggest stage and do it consistently.
I think he probably would do better if more Japanese Sonics like KEN or Komorikiri (provided he doesn't use a lot of Cloud) came to more international super majors or some US regionals or majors. The US Sonics just aren't as good as those in Japan, KEN's punish game with Sonic compared to a western Sonic being a prime example.
 
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Mister M

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People talk about Roys DED side B being really really really really really really good.

Can someone fill me in on y?
 

Illuminose

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Not sure where this newfound optimism by Sonic players is coming from. KEN's win at Umebura SAT was obviously impressive but the character hasn't even placed top 8 at a major since Paragon LA—nearly an entire year ago. You'd think that with a matchup spread like that and the large player base that he has, he'd be able to make it farther on the biggest stage and do it consistently.
In large part they have been this optimistic the entire time.

Sonic mains are confident in their character.
 

FeelMeUp

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There was a problem fetching the tweet
No one's posted it so I guess I will. Apparently by holding down until Sheik's about to grab the ledge then releasing before she reappears(so you don't pop above) you can skip the 2 frames of vulnerability.
I think this is exclusive to teleport recoveries.
Sheik's Vanish just went from "don't bother unless you can 2 frame" to "don't bother at all." Doesn't help that aside from 4-5 characters it's almost impossible to ledgetrap/juggle her without hard reads and guaranteed combos.
Truly the most non-existent disadvantage state in this game.
She's only going to get dumber as time goes on.
 
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Krysco

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So apparently this is a thing and was a known thing (I didn't know about it)
Dreamland is weird. There's this and there's also the fact that using certain directional recoveries horizontally on the stage result in the character entering helpless state before finishing the move: :4falco::4fox::4lucario::4mewtwo::4palutena::4zelda::4miisword:. That's just off the top of my head. Been a while since I tested it. Don't recall if :4greninja: is affected although I recall :4sheik: not being affected. Largely useless anyways save for making ledge cancels for the 3 non-Sheik teleporters a pain.

Oh and for the video, the uploader mentions in the comments that it has nothing to do with the mods.
 

bc1910

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

wrath made a sonic mu chart
This at once under and overrates Sonic.

For example he beats Greninja and Bowser way worse than 55:45 off the top of my head. There are probably many other 55:45s and 60:40s that are worse than they have been listed.

On the other hand I find it unlikely that Sonic doesn't lose slightly to a couple of the characters mentioned. Cloud in particular, and probably Rosalina. Then again, in those MUs I'm not sure what the results support these days.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Didnt BFS do a video on this like 3 months ago? Why is it just now coming up?

Doesn't matter I guess, as long as it happens. Its not just Sheik that can bypass the 2 frames for anyone confused, its anyone with an intangible recovery. Teleport recoveries like Sheiks vanish or Palutenas warp are just the most recognisable.

Lets talk about Mewtwo for a second. He has the fastest teleport recovery being frame 6 that's also one of the easiest move to ledge cancel. This allows for amazing burst mobility and combined with his airdodge, godly landing options, light weight, and slightly below average fall speed/gravity that on certain stages he could have a better disadvantage state than Sheik. Mewtwo as a character is still very underdeveloped with a lot of potential and his disadvantage state is easily his least developed state. I really feel like Mewtwo could be top 3 if he was given enough time before the next tier list
 

FeelMeUp

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M2 is an absolutely insane character with too much kill power and speed with a disadvantage that should be a good bit worse.
He does suffer a lot, though.
People don't really talk about this but characters with insanely good crossup rolls can give him a hard time(hint hint, Diddy's crossup roll dtilt blows the MU wide open) because he has 0 options to safely get them off of him. M2's airdodge actually isn't good at all for horizontal combos because unlike most he doesn't have jump out as a good option to escape combos. He has the f2 airdodge and all, but his massive frame makes it easy to say "Oh you airdodged? I'll just punish you worse now."
not only is he ridiculously easy to combo, but he has no good get off me moves(fair is f5 but we need a f3-4 for this) for once the other characters get in and is actually really easy to ledgetrap if you're not playing on BF.
and then there's the well known "super light so you can randomly die at 70-80 even with godlike DI"
His disadvantage is a lot worse than people make it seems......but at the same time I think his advantage is much more ridiculous than people let on
 
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Yonder

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I think the face that Mewtwo can't utilize rage most of the time and has eh frame data (His fastest move coming out at frame 5(?) fair?) Keeps him in check personally. Also, his down throw is useless and don't lead to combos like Mario's, Diddy's,Sheik's (?) Etc. With a pitiful grab range on top of it all.

Don't forget he still has a couple deadspots on his uair and u tilt on the ground at times...it's kinda awkward.

And the teleport glitch but let's be honest Mewtwo mains have worked around that now it's mostly irrelavent.
 
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Nobie

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I think the face that Mewtwo can't utilize rage most of the time and has eh frame data (His fastest move coming out at [frame 6] Keeps him in check personally. Also, his down throw is useless and don't lead to combos like Mario's, Diddy's,Sheik's (?) Etc. With a pitiful grab range on top of it all.

Don't forget he still has a couple deadspots on his uair and u tilt on the ground at times...it's kinda awkward.

And the teleport glitch but let's be honest Mewtwo mains have worked around that now it's mostly irrelavent.
I've said this before, but the fact that Mewtwo's fastest attacks aren't that fast is what keeps the character in check, and what prevents it from becoming another Melee Fox, for as much as people fear Mewtwo's potential to just negate its weaknesses . Jab isn't really a jab but more of a combo starter, while d-tilt and fair are fast in terms of what they're meant to accomplish but not raw speed.

Re: Sonic vs. Bowser, let's not forget that Bowser runs as fast as Marth and has big beefy intangible arms when he punches. That can't possibly be pleasant for Sonic and his spin dash.

Actually, in general, I wonder about intangibility moves and transcendent hitboxes vs. Sonic. At least the latter should be able to cut through Spin Dash's annoying ability to clank with moves more often than not.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Wrath's matchup chart for Sonic is pretty good imo. Very conservative but it has only few glaring inconsistencies - Ike supposedly being in Sonic's favor is the only big one that seems off.

:059:
 

Bobert

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People talk about Roys DED side B being really really really really really really good.

Can someone fill me in on y?
I don't recall DED being extremely amazing or anything, but it's still a good move. It deals a good bit of damage on it's own and is a good low-mid percent follow up from Roy's combo starters. The normal DED combo can kill but doesn't really connect well at high percents unless you hit with the tip of it but you can still DI out of it. It also doesn't connect very well on floaty characters.
 
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soniczx123

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Wrath's matchup chart for Sonic is pretty good imo. Very conservative but it has only few glaring inconsistencies - Ike supposedly being in Sonic's favor is the only big one that seems off.

:059:
It's honestly a bit too optimistic imo. Thinking that Sonic doesn't lose any MUs in taking it a bit too far.


There was a problem fetching the tweet

Komo posted a MU chart as well.
 

NegaNixx

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They both believe that Sonic vs Ike is in Sonic's favour? Have their been any recent sets between the two?
 

Mili

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They both believe that Sonic vs Ike is in Sonic's favour? Have their been any recent sets between the two?
historically in the us, ike beats sonic. japan has a relatively low view on ike due to lack of rep so they dont have as much mu data iirc.
 

Ninety

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Can't see Robin in the "worst matchup" camp against Sonic, though perhaps a campier playstyle would tip that over. Robin certainly can't catch up to him if he gets the lead, although there's always Thoron.

Dath vs Wrath money match is what I"m saying.
 

NegaNixx

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historically in the us, ike beats sonic. japan has a relatively low view on ike due to lack of rep so they dont have as much mu data iirc.
Understood but Wrath has it at a similar ratio as well 5.5 (Slight Advantage) compared to Komo's 5.4 (Advantage).

Is the secret against Ike to play camp lord Sonic? Like... I think a solid movement based Sonic with less Spin Dash can beat Ike better than a heavy spin dash one. But I just want to know what their seeing in the MU that puts it at an advantage when historically it's been pretty bad.
 

Funen1

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There was a problem fetching the tweet
No one's posted it so I guess I will. Apparently by holding down until Sheik's about to grab the ledge then releasing before she reappears(so you don't pop above) you can skip the 2 frames of vulnerability.
I think this is exclusive to teleport recoveries.
Sheik's Vanish just went from "don't bother unless you can 2 frame" to "don't bother at all." Doesn't help that aside from 4-5 characters it's almost impossible to ledgetrap/juggle her without hard reads and guaranteed combos.
Truly the most non-existent disadvantage state in this game.
She's only going to get dumber as time goes on.
Well @Lavani had that link to a gif that showed Rosa being able to avoid the 2 vulnerable frames, and hers is not a teleport recovery, so I'm assuming most if not all characters can do this.

But regarding this thing in general, would I be right in describing it as avoiding the 2 vulnerable frames simply by sweetspotting the ledge "better"? If so, this could still be pretty significant for many characters (and not just Sheik) as it would eliminate a notable aspect of edge-guarding that's been around for going on a couple years, making recoveries even stronger. But I think I'd rather wait for more info just in case.
 

verbatim

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Mr R. had been doing this since at LEAST BEAST6, it isn't new in that sense, just something not everyone knows.
 

TDK

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So who do you guys think are the top 5 players right now?

I'd say ZeRo, Ally, Dabuz, Abadango, and one of VoiD, Mr. R, and Larry, in that order.
 

PJB

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Zero, Ally, Dabuz, Kamemushi, Leo.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I believe Leo's MK is the truth lol
 

Hat N' Clogs

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Top 5? Hmmm. I'm not confident after the top 3, but I'd say...

1. Dabuz :rosalina:
2. Ally :4mario:
3. ZeRo :4diddy:
4. Mr. R :4sheik:
5. Larry Lurr :4fox:

Abadango and Mew2King as honorable mentions :4mewtwo::4cloud2:
Edit: Top 5 might not be in exact order.
 
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Joey T.

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I think people is sleeping on Nairo. Last time I checked, he had the highest ratio of attended/won tournaments.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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1)zero
2)dabuz
3)nairo
4)ally
5)mr. R

If u look at the rankings, they are considerably higher than the rest of the players, not to say rankings are everything since some don't travel as much (Leo). Esam is on the rise though.
 
D

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It's honestly a bit too optimistic imo. Thinking that Sonic doesn't lose any MUs in taking it a bit too far.


There was a problem fetching the tweet

Komo posted a MU chart as well.
I need clarification as to why Ganon is as high as he is
 

thehard

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I think people is sleeping on Nairo. Last time I checked, he had the highest ratio of attended/won tournaments.
Nairo is pulling amazing wins with a character that's frankly dangerous to play in this meta

Despite his lackluster CEO and EVO placings he still only lost to top tier competitors, the numbers don't show the whole picture

Not to mention he generally always gets first at stacked regionals

Nairo's got a very high peak of play, hard to say if he's 5 at the moment but no way is he outside top 10
 

Nu~

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image.jpeg

Lordmix posted a matchup chart too.
Not sure how serious he is about all these matchups, but regardless I tried to ask why he thinks bowser "*****" pacman.





Didn't exactly get the most explanatory answer...
image.jpeg
 

FeelMeUp

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"bowser even with Fox/Diddy/Mewtwo and beating Sheik, Falcon, MK and Marth"
moving on.....
Bowser sucks and will not get better as time goes on.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Bowser is pretty even against Fox. That's all I can really say about the character though.

:059:
 

NegaNixx

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Top Players...

Umm...

ZeRo: :4diddy:(:4sheik::4cloud:)
Ally: :4mario: (:4cloud:)
Nairo: :4zss:
Dabuz :rosalina:(:4olimar:)
Mr. R: :4sheik:
Komorikiri: :4sonic:/:4cloud2:
MKLeo: :4metaknight::4marth::4cloud2:
Kamemushi: :4megaman:(:4yoshi::4cloud:)
Abadango: :4mewtwo:(:4pacman::rosalina:)
VoiD: :4sheik:(:4fox::4mewtwo:)
Ranai: :4villager:
Mew2King: :4cloud2:
Larry Lurr: :4fox:

Something like that order...

Mind you I missed the last two weeks of tournaments. But that should cover most of this summer.
 

Joey T.

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User was warned for this post
Regarding the Bowser MU spread, early 3DS days are coming back I guess.
 
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C0rvus

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Let's talk about Bowser Jr.! :4bowserjr::4larry::4roy::4wendy::4iggy::4morton::4lemmy::4ludwig:

...He's bad, yeah. But does he have a place in the meta at all? What relevant matchups does he do well in? I have literally no idea what to think about the character, despite playing him a fair amount.
 

FeelMeUp

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Bowser is pretty even against Fox. That's all I can really say about the character though.

:059:
The only things Bowser players have that contest with Fox's amazing tools are up b oos, fire breath, and low% uthrow combos.
he gets punished super hard, has no way to escape the vortex, absolutely CANNOT land AT ALL vs Fox, dies at roughly 110-120 before hit off confirms, and gets ledge trapped almost as bad as DK does.
I agree with you 99% of the time. This is not one of those times.
 
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NegaNixx

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Be it due to Bowser getting better or Donkey Kong getting figured out. Bowser will be the best Super Heavy. With Charizard sneaking into second.
 
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