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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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ZSaberLink

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fixed that


It's not significant (35 to 33 in Top 16) but it's definitely interesting how lackluster Greninjas' results are. Not as bad as Villager, at least.
Btw what are Link's numbers comparatively?

Also I think BC Luck attended two tourneys at the same time and got top 32 in both o_O.

Also, did the Charizard/Bowser player beat Anti 3-1 o_O?


https://smash.gg/tournament/smashadelphia/brackets/12544/27510/90532 - Smashadelphia

https://smash.gg/tournament/deluge/brackets/12154/35309/118664 - Deluge
 
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Luco

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Btw what are Link's numbers comparatively?

Also I think BC Luck attended two tourneys at the same time and got top 32 in both o_O.


https://smash.gg/tournament/deluge/brackets/12154/35309/118664 - Smashadelphia

https://smash.gg/tournament/deluge/brackets/12154/35309/118664 - Deluge
Those two are... The same tournament friend. :p

And lol at Palutena having better results than frog. Tbh as much of an anomaly as this appears to be I really do think she's not bottom 5. Probably bottom 10 but atm I see bottom 5 as like 1111 default size gunner, ditto swordfighter, Jiggs, DDD and Zelda, with Falco and Roy not far behind.

Miis really need their movesets back.
 

ZSaberLink

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Those two are... The same tournament friend. :p

And lol at Palutena having better results than frog. Tbh as much of an anomaly as this appears to be I really do think she's not bottom 5. Probably bottom 10 but atm I see bottom 5 as like 1111 default size gunner, ditto swordfighter, Jiggs, DDD and Zelda, with Falco and Roy not far behind.

Miis really need their movesets back.
Whoops, fixed the links. Thanks.
 

Das Koopa

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Smashadelphia was on Sunday, Deluge was on Saturday.
 

KamikazePotato

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Moreso than pure number of results, I'd be interested in seeing some sort of weighted value. Like, it means a lot if 50 Clouds scored Top 16 spots, but if 1000 people entered as Cloud then it isn't as impressive. You of course have to account for less-skilled players gravitating to a popular pick, but still. Meanwhile, if 1 person entered as Palutena and won a tournament, then what is everyone else missing...?
 

Djent

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Meanwhile at MSM #51 (stream), ScAtt and K9sBruce are both in losers. I didn't catch either loss, but now one of them can place no higher than 13th.

EDIT: And winner fights TLTC right off of a close set with VoiD. Good lord, this tournament...
 
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warionumbah2

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after watching game 1 I have a hard time seeing this worse than even for Mewtwo. It could possibly slightly in Mewtwo's favor.

:150:
He put up a much better fight vs Abadango than Tyrant.

-Mega Smash Mondays 42
Tyrant vs Rich Brown: 3-0
LS: https://secure.twitch.tv/2ggaming/v/55879081?t=03h26m34s

-Mega Smash Mondays 43
Tyrant vs Rich Brown: 3-0
LF: https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming/v/57304423?t=4h10m44s

-Collegiate Colosseum
Tyrant vs Rich Brown: 2-0
Pools: https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming/v/58221271?t=5h17m00s

Edit: According to Zan, Oki used DK to beat Scatt not that other character.
 
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Das Koopa

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Scatt out at 13th at MSM 50, losing to Oki (Meta Knight/Donkey Kong) and K9.
 

Emblem Lord

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The more Bayos that get dropped, the stronger I become.

Cmon 9B go back to Ryu ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Speaking of, I'm gonna be counting up all the results from this weekend. Bayonetta took up around 9% of all tops from March 15th-April 15th, but I suspect that number will go down a bit by the end of May. Maybe.
The absolute worst thing that could happen to the Ryu meta is 9B going back.

Ryu is not what 9B is about. People say 9B is technical and thats what attracts him to characters.
But that is only part of it. He seems to vibe well with characters that have a consistent and extremely strong win condition. He seems to be super methodical and honestly a very abusive player in neutral. Usually going for the safest most reliable thing that can convert into that win condition. I partially blame him for Ryus meta being so stagnant until recently. Because Ryu simply is not IC's or Bayo. There is not ONE thing he can do in neutral, that he can abuse all day. And none of his conversions come from just throwing something out thats safe in a SH. He has specific avenues to close stocks with his conversions.

Bayo fits him perfectly.
 
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Chalice

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The Ryu players are finally poking their heads out. I saw like 3 Ryu's that placed well in that list that was posted a page back? That's neat to see.

The lack of solo Clouds are disappointing though
 

bc1910

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fixed that


It's not significant (35 to 33 in Top 16) but it's definitely interesting how lackluster Greninjas' results are. Not as bad as Villager, at least.
Yet both of them are top 20 on SB rankings. Depends on what results system you use (SB rankings are far from perfect as well). I enjoy your project but it's one way to rank results among many, not the be-all and end-all.

Palutena is probably better than many people (including myself) give her credit for though.
 

Djmarcus44

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Those two are... The same tournament friend. :p

And lol at Palutena having better results than frog. Tbh as much of an anomaly as this appears to be I really do think she's not bottom 5. Probably bottom 10 but atm I see bottom 5 as like 1111 default size gunner, ditto swordfighter, Jiggs, DDD and Zelda, with Falco and Roy not far behind.

Miis really need their movesets back.
Why do you have 1111 Mii Brawler ahead of 1111 Mii Swordfighter and 1111 Mii Gunner? Although Mii Brawler has gotten some results recently when allowed Guest size any moveset, Brawler still hasn't gotten any results when restricted to 1111. Mii Gunner, on the other hand, has gotten results at the local and regional level. Although I have no idea how large this local was (I assume it was pretty small since I was only able to find the grand finals set on YouTube, and neither player looked that great), tukemono won a Japanese local with Mii Gunner. GSR Flama also got 3rd place in a regional tournament named Short hop using Mii Gunner with Mario as a secondary. His only losses came to Wonf and Addy.

In fact, Mii Gunner's metagame is trending upward right now. Not only has GSR Flama gotten consistently good results in his area, he has also been helping us get a better clue of Gunner's matchups on the Mii Gunner matchup thread. I am even starting to find more mixups for the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread.

@Flameleon (Flama) also has some YouTube videos that are helpful for seeing how some of Mii Gunner's matchups play out at a high level.
-Hello gunnerz, i'm Flameleon(Flama in my country, which means flame haha), i'm a top player in my country, México, i was a Mario main for years but one day, when Geno outfit came out, i decided to be a Mii Gunner main, hopefully to be a good one, and well, since i want to be active on smashboards again, i'll be trying to help with anything i can, in this case, matchups for our beloved main haha, here is one of the most recent match i've had:

Vs ToonLink:

I will play against Hyuga soon, you may know him, he's considered the best Toon Link atm, i will be sure to get data for the matchup. I also upload videos against specific characters to help with the matchup on my channel: https://www.youtube.com/FlameL3on

well, i think that's it for now, see you later, dudes...-
While there isn't as much going on for 1111 Mii Swordfighter, Colgate recently found a really good string for 1111 Swordfighter. 1111 Swordfighter still has more results than 1111 Brawler right now.
 
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Das Koopa

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Yet both of them are top 20 on SB rankings. Depends on what results system you use (SB rankings are far from perfect as well). I enjoy your project but it's one way to rank results among many, not the be-all and end-all.
I'm aware and get that my system isn't the perfect/only system, but Link and Mac are also Top 20 in SB Rankings and Bayonetta and Mewtwo are, like, bottom third.
 

Trifroze

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You obviously shouldn't include a timeframe where DLC characters weren't yet released or a certain character didn't yet have the buffs or nerfs that made them whatever they currently are if you want accurate rankings, whether it's Smashboards or anything else. Link and Mac being top 20 in all time rankings isn't really valid critique, the problem is choosing to look at all time rankings in the first place in a game that has DLC characters and patches.

Also, the meta evolves constantly (although not every time an uncommon character gets one good placing or when a common threat gets a bad one like this topic often tends to think), so choosing to look at anything older than around 3-4 months, patches or not, is pointless when you want to judge the game in its current state.
 
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Das Koopa

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You obviously shouldn't include a timeframe where DLC characters weren't yet released or a certain character didn't yet have the buffs or nerfs that made them whatever they currently are if you want accurate rankings, whether it's Smashboards or anything else. Link and Mac being top 20 in all time rankings isn't really valid critique, the problem is choosing to look at all time rankings in the first place in a game that has DLC characters and patches.

Also, the meta evolves constantly (although not every time an uncommon character gets one good placing or when a common threat gets a bad one like this topic often tends to think), so choosing to look at anything older than around 3-4 months, patches or not, is pointless when you want to judge the game in its current state.
March 15th-May 17th looks a bit more representative of the metagame. There are still some weird quirks but at least it isn't looking as Event Hub-sy as it does in All-Time, I didn't realize you could change dates (which might also make the player ranking look better <_<)
 

bc1910

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Article might as well read "1.1.6 balance patch confirmed - Bayonetta nerfs to follow".

I'm aware and get that my system isn't the perfect/only system, but Link and Mac are also Top 20 in SB Rankings and Bayonetta and Mewtwo are, like, bottom third.
Which speaks to the fact that neither system can be completely trusted, as I already said. I do like the fact that yours is a rolling average, at least.
 
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Das Koopa

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I will be resetting my data list when 1.1.6 arrives assuming any significant nerfs/buffs occur, and we all know they will.

I will likely go ahead and create the full data chart/list for mid-April to mid-May. It's very plausible this patch will occur in the next week anyway.
 

Das Koopa

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Browny

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User was warned for this post
PLACE YOUR BETS PLACE YOUR BETS

I've got Bayo nerfs @ $1.50
DDD untouched @ $3.00
Jigglypuff buffed @ $1337
 

bc1910

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I'm offering 100:1 on Rosalina buffs, you won't find these odds anywhere else! Place your bets!

4:1 on Shield Shulk nerfs!

EDIT: So this post has some useful content...

Which characters will benefit the most from a nerfed Bayonetta?
 
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jespoke

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I'm interested to see what direction they go with Bayonetta, but also the small things to various characters that will make us go "That change was not big, but very fitting for the character" and "2 kbg on smashes doesn't help arghrghrgh"
 

Shady Shaymin

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User was warned for this post
I'm offering 100:1 on Rosalina buffs, you won't find these odds anywhere else! Place your bets!

4:1 on Shield Shulk nerfs!

EDIT: So this post has some useful content...

Which characters will benefit the most from a nerfed Bayonetta?
Twitch chat
 

BlazGreen

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It'll be very interesting to see what happens with this patch especially concerning Bayonetta. There's a fine line between a slap on the wrist and completely gutting a character.
 
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UberMadman

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Anyone else also getting the feeling this is possibly going to be the final patch as well? I believe it's safe to assume that it is being released almost definitely in part due to the controversy surrounding Bayonetta, and after that they'll have effectively "cleaned up" all the DLC characters, (not inclufing the minor nerfs Bayonetta got in 1.1.5, of course.) I'm also personally hoping that some of the more overlooked yet notably flawed characters, (namely :4bowserjr:, :4dedede:, :4duckhunt:, :4littlemac:, :4pacman:, (well, mainly his grab,) :4feroy:, and of course :4jigglypuff:,) will finally receive some actual notably good tuning. There are other characters that I think deserve buffs too, but for this lot to either be left with only a few QOL changes or in Dedede's case, unwarranted nerfs, would leave me with a bad taste in my mouth by the end of this game's balance cycle.

...Holy ****, I'm actually starting to look toward patches for closure. The balance team has spoiled me, maybe I should go back and play some Brawl for perspective.

It'll be very interesting to see what happens with this patch especially concerning Bayonetta. There's a fine line between a slap on the wrist and completely gutting a character.
To be fair, can you name one character so far that they've truly gutted? The closest cases I can think of are Luigi, Meta Knight, and Greninja directly following 1.0.4, but I think this was more due to the fact that all these characters were relatively reliant one one or two very overtuned tools as opposed to being characters with a consistently powerful kit.
 
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Shady Shaymin

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I'm hoping for the slew of godsend mid tier buffs we've been getting over time, but it would be interesting to see changes to game mechanics. Perhaps a rage nerf ala 1.1.1 shield stun?
 
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outfoxd

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At this point i feel like Duck Hunt got all he's gonna get from patches. That he's only gotten minor tweaks leads me to believe he's where the team wants him. There any other characters that might be like that, where they've only received minor changes at mid to low tier because they're "done"?
 

UberMadman

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I'm hoping for the slew of godsend mid tier buffs we've been getting over time, but it would be interesting to see changes to game mechanics. Perhaps a rage nerf ala 1.1.1 shield stun?
If there was going to be one engine change that this game would benefit from, I think it would be a slight nerf to shield regen. I feel like this game overcompensated drastically for the increase in shield damage by effectively not making it matter after 5 or so seconds, and the only reason that I would not call for a larger nerf to regen is because the shieldstun buff already made it much easier and more effective to pressure shields.

That said, I don't see that change as likely at this point, nor any more changes to the engine itself. I feel like the dev team probably finds it too late in the game to make any kind of notable overhauls to how the mechanics work, and I'm fine with that. Vertical vectoring and lack of shieldstun were probably the two best issues to address and deal with, (though I personally would prefer ALL vectoring was removed, but whatever.)
 
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Zannabluke

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huh, it's been a long time since we got an update with the changelog that actually says "balance changes"

iirc, last time was with the m2/first-diddy-nerf
 
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UberMadman

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At this point i feel like Duck Hunt got all he's gonna get from patches. That he's only gotten minor tweaks leads me to believe he's where the team wants him. There any other characters that might be like that, where they've only received minor changes at mid to low tier because they're "done"?
<-----
 
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Konneh

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I am very very curious about how, if at all, they approach Bayonettas balancing. As I see it, her kit is incredibly problematic to balance, much harder than Sheik for instance, where they did a really good job. Is there any hope they will add new weaknesses or reinforce existing ones instead of gutting her strengths? I'd love to see that, maybe even today.
 
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UberMadman

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I am very very curious about how, if at all, they approach Bayonettas balancing. As I see it, her kit is incredibly problematic to balance, much harder than Sheik for instance, where they did a really good job. Is there any hope they will add new weaknesses or reinforce existing ones instead of gutting her strengths? I'd love to see that, maybe even today.
I just feel like getting rid of her ability to kill off the top from some of her low-percent, ground level combos, (such as by preventing fair 1 from being able to combo into Witch Twist by adding endlag to it if you don't cancel it into fair 2,) increasing the startup/decreasing the safety of some of her safest combo starters such as Witch Twist and After Burner Divekick, and some slight toning down on the knockback growth of her stronger kill moves such as her bair, dair, and uair would be all that is needed to make her a more "honest" top tier, personally. I feel like her immense damage racking capabilities and strong recovery/disadvantage would be fine if she couldn't KILL off those combos and was a little bit easier to punish for committing to her overtuned combo starters.
 

HeavyLobster

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I am very very curious about how, if at all, they approach Bayonettas balancing. As I see it, her kit is incredibly problematic to balance, much harder than Sheik for instance, where they did a really good job. Is there any hope they will add new weaknesses or reinforce existing ones instead of gutting her strengths? I'd love to see that, maybe even today.
Maybe have her Divekick stuff kill at 40-50% instead of 0.
 
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