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- A few more active frames on its f-smash to mitigate its heinous recovery frames - give its d-air an auto-cancel on frame 50 and a slight increase on the landing hit's KB (120 KBG => 149 KBG) - U-air's landing lag is halved; the WBKB on its f-smash is increased slightly (I've witnessed and fall out between hits 1 and 2 and shield the rest) - earlier auto-cancel for short-hop d-air; more KB on Dark Dive (maybe back to its Melee level) - the landing lag on f-air and b-air are reduced to 18 frames and the sourspot does 6% with higher BKB (5 => 20 BKB)Why would you want to do this? Does she not suffer landing lag this side of
's back-air doing both Witch Twists and both Afterburner Kicks together?
:make her only able to follow up fair 1 with fair 2 and fair 3,reduce witch twists range signifigantly,or make her Not get dabk back after being hit out of it + remove triple jump.:remove limit mobility buffs + make up air frame 8 so it doesn't hit so low. + increase bairs landing lag to 18 frames. Not sure about nerfing limit moves if the mobility buff is gone as its the kill power of those + limit mobility thats problematic. Jumpsquat to frame 5.: he's not that bad but I would want these little changes to him.Disagree with bolded.Here's what I'd change (wip):
Reduce upB, sideB hitbubbles. UpB startup frame 4>7. Remove bat within feature from dodges so she actually has bad dodges. Make bullet arts a projectile/reflectable. Decrease witch time duration and make the move an AoE counter so long attacks like Zairs won't trigger the slow down. Jumpsquat frame 4>6. B/Dair landing lag increases.
Make limit not buff Cloud's stats or charge from being hit. Jump squat from frame 4>7. Increase Uair landing lag. Slight lag increases across the board. Slight limit kill power nerfs.
Add 3 frames to Dtilt start up and FAF. Reduce Fair hitbubble size. Add end lag and nerf kbg to smashes, sideB, Utilt. Increase banana pull FAF by 10 frames.
Slight nerfs to damage and/or kill power for moves that apply.
Increase Usmash end lag, slightly nerf power. Nerf Uair landing lag. Slightly increase Utilt start up and FAF. Increase sideB landing and end lag.
Reduce luma's HP by 10. Nerf jab, Uair kill power. Increase luma's jab start up by 3 frames, 4>7. Slight hitbubble reduction on ring attacks.
Startup/FAF slight increase to Jab, Utilt. Reduce flip kick attack sizes, increase end lag. Slightly lower air speed.
Increase end lag on power moves like smashes so they're less safe to throw out. Increase KBG on Utilt/Uair so they don't string as long.
Increase Fair kbg. Add a frame to jumpsquat 4>5. Increase needle charge/throw start up. Lower vanish, Uair BKB. Buff Dsmash kill power. Lower bouncing fish kbg.
Reduce run and air speed. Increase shadow ball charge time and endlag. Decrease Fair kbg. Slightly nerf Dtilt's range.
...I'll keep adding to this.
Nerfing characters doesn't make a game more competitive. In fact, me and many others would argue nerfing achieves just the opposite effect.
Notice how the very first response in this thread was by the OP himself, who nerfed every top tier in the game?
And I'm telling you that you really shouldn't. This is his entire rhetoric in every thread ever, bruh.
proper balance requires conservative use of both buffs and nerfs and those have to be, in themselves, reasonable. granted, smash is largely fun because of stupid design choices, so something like a slightly less extreme melee falco laser wouldn't be out of place in a game where mewtwo has a frame 6 fair that kills. however, there's a fine line between those and a melee fox shine or a witch time, and once you start giving everyone those you end up going into the realm of power creep where everyone's too powerful, or relies on a select few things that are too powerful.
Those are moves that serve very different purposes. Bayo actually gets less landing lag for UpB > SideB > SideB > UpB > landing bair than Lucario does for simply landing onstage with upB (something that could also probably stand to have its 1.0.4 nerf reverted, but I digress), and she has the option to cancel that landing lag entirely by landing with Witch Time. Considering the vast options she has for landing locations if she hasn't yet used all her recovery moves, and her aerials still being usable after them, and the Witch Time mixup, increasing the landing lag and incentivizing the mixup (making it more predictable) seems the best way to address that.Why would you want to do this? Does she not suffer landing lag this side of
My list is a work in progress and only has top tiers so far so there's a lot of nerfs. I'm going to buff worse characters.
Read my post, I give a reasonable buff that makes rest unpublishable if it kills. Other than that frustrating thing fixed, everything else is fine. She's the joke character. She's suppos d to be bad. Maybe make up throw kill at around 180 or so. But nothing more than that.
Could you explain why zss needs nerfed?Nerfed:
These aren't reasonable balance changes; you're making half the top tiers into bottom tiers. Cloud with those changes would be worse than Ganon.Here's what I'd change (wip):
Reduce upB, sideB hitbubbles. UpB startup frame 4>7. Remove bat within feature from dodges so she actually has bad dodges. Make bullet arts a projectile/reflectable. Decrease witch time duration and make the move an AoE counter so long attacks like Zairs won't trigger the slow down. Jumpsquat frame 4>6. B/Dair landing lag increases.
Make limit not buff Cloud's stats or charge from being hit. Jump squat from frame 4>7. Increase Uair landing lag. Slight lag increases across the board. Slight limit kill power nerfs.
Add 3 frames to Dtilt start up and FAF. Reduce Fair hitbubble size. Add end lag and nerf kbg to smashes, sideB, Utilt. Increase banana pull FAF by 10 frames.
Slight nerfs to damage and/or kill power for moves that apply.
Increase Usmash end lag, slightly nerf power. Nerf Uair landing lag. Slightly increase Utilt start up and FAF. Increase sideB landing and end lag.
Reduce luma's HP by 10. Nerf jab, Uair kill power. Increase luma's jab start up by 3 frames, 4>7. Slight hitbubble reduction on ring attacks.
Startup/FAF slight increase to Jab, Utilt. Reduce flip kick attack sizes, increase end lag. Slightly lower air speed.
Increase end lag on power moves like smashes so they're less safe to throw out. Increase KBG on Utilt/Uair so they don't string as long.
Increase Fair kbg. Add a frame to jumpsquat 4>5. Increase needle charge/throw start up. Lower vanish, Uair BKB. Buff Dsmash kill power. Lower bouncing fish kbg.
Reduce run and air speed. Increase shadow ball charge time and endlag. Decrease Fair kbg. Slightly nerf Dtilt's range.
...I'll keep adding to this.
That's ridiculous.
weighs 100, Link's 104. He without limit has the 10th best run speed, 14th best air speed with a huge sword. He has a frame 5 Nair that hits all around him, auto cancel Dair that's huge, killing Bair with Shulk's reach and 14 frames of lag, a frame 9 DA that kills at 130%, frame 7 sliding Dtilt with leg intangibility, frame 8 Dsmash, frame 4 jab (I'd nerf it to 5) and Limit would still be a good kill option even if it doesn't kill at 65%. My changes are fine:
Tizio Random
's post. Nerf top tiers, buff low tiers and have everyone meet in mid tier.
This would turn Rosa into a bottom 5 character. Please don't do this.
Reduce luma's HP by 10. Nerf jab, Uair kill power. Increase luma's jab start up by 3 frames, 4>7. Slight hitbubble reduction on ring attacks.
Any little nerf and everyone instantly jumps to "oh no bottom tier". The same thing happened during the real balance patches, like for Bayo and she's arguably #1 atm.
: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/4671: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/5808: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/5851
: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/5339: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/5981
: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/6047
Mii Brawler
-No changes
Mii Swordfighter
-No changes
Mii Gunner
-No changes
Mario
-No changes
Donkey Kong
-Run Speed: 1.7031 -> 1.705
-Weight: 122 -> 124
-Star Projectile Damage: 18 -> 20
Link
-Run Speed: 1.3944 -> 1.4
Samus
-Walk Speed: 1.0615 -> 1.062
-Run Speed: 1.504 -> 1.51
-Gravity: 0.077 -> 0.075
-Fall Speed: 1.3 -> 1.25
-Fast-Fall Speed: 2.08 -> 2
-Weight: 108 -> 112
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.0615 -> 1.062
-Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 18
Yoshi
-Fall Speed: 1.29 -> 1.28
-Fast-Fall Speed: 2.064 -> 2.048
-Weight: 104 -> 102
Kirby
-Air Speed: 0.8 -> 1.04
-Weight: 79 -> 77
-Star Projectile Damage: 12 -> 11
Fox
-Run Speed: 2.184 -> 2.2
-Weight: 79 -> 80
Pikachu
-Run Speed: 1.85325 -> 1.855
-Air Speed: 0.9118 -> 0.92
-Weight: 79 -> 78
-Star Projectile Damage: 12 -> 11
Luigi
-Air Speed: 0.7341766 -> 0.92
-Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
Captain Falcon
-Walk Speed: 0.94 -> 0.96
-Air Speed: 1.1 -> 1.18
-Fall Speed: 1.837 -> 1.85
-Fast-Fall Speed: 2.9392 -> 2.96
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 0.94 -> 0.96
Ness
-Walk Speed: 0.8635 -> 0.875
-Run Speed: 1.46265 -> 1.465
-Air Acceleration: 0.09 -> 0.1
-Air Speed: 0.9588 -> 0.96
-Weight: 94 -> 97
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 0.8635 -> 0.875
-Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
Peach
-Run Speed: 1.4175 -> 1.45
-Air Speed: 0.95 -> 1.19
-Weight: 89 -> 85
Bowser
-Fall Speed: 1.39 -> 1.4
-Fast-Fall Speed: 2.224 -> 2.24
-Weight: 130 -> 132
-Star Projectile Damage: 20 -> 22
Zelda
-Run Speed: 1.3 -> 1.36
-Air Acceleration: 0.055 -> 0.1
-Air Speed: 1.04 -> 1.08
-Fall Speed: 1.35 -> 1.22
-Fast-Fall Speed: 2.16 -> 1.952
Sheik
-Run Speed: 2.016 -> 2.02
-Air Speed: 1.1 -> 0.88
-Weight: 81 -> 85
-Star Projectile Damage: 12 -> 13
Marth
-Star Projectile Damage: 13 -> 14
Mr. Game & Watch
-Walk Speed: 1.1242 -> 1.125
-Run Speed: 1.5264 -> 1.55
-Air Speed: 1.12 -> 1.15
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.1242 -> 1.125
Ganondorf
-Run Speed: 1.218 -> 1.2
-Air Speed: 0.79 -> 0.8
-Gravity: 0.107835 -> 0.10784
-Weight: 113 -> 115
-Star Projectile Damage: 17 -> 19
Falco
-Run Speed: 1.472 -> 1.92
Wario
-Weight: 107 -> 108
-Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 17
Meta Knight
-Walk Speed: 1.18 -> 1.19
-Air Speed: 0.99 -> 0.8
-Fall Speed: 1.66 -> 1.56
-Fast-Fall Speed: 2.656 -> 2.496
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.18 -> 1.19
Pit
-Walk Speed: 1.199 -> 1.2
-Run Speed: 1.66215 -> 1.663
-Air Speed: 0.89 -> 0.9
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.199 -> 1.2
-Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
Zero Suit Samus
-No changes
Olimar
-Fall Speed: 1.35 -> 1.3
-Fast-Fall Speed: 2.16 -> 2.08
-Weight: 79 -> 78
-Star Projectile Damage: 12 -> 11
Diddy Kong
-No changes
King Dedede
-Walk Speed: 0.98 -> 1
-Air Speed: 0.63 -> 0.7
-Weight: 119 -> 120
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 0.98 -> 1
-Star Projectile Damage: 18 -> 20
Ike
-Walk Speed: 0.869 -> 0.87
-Weight: 107 -> 108
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 0.869 -> 0.87
-Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 17
Lucario
-Air Speed: 1.09 -> 1.1
-Fall Speed: 1.68 -> 1.56
-Fast-Fall Speed: 2.688 -> 2.496
-Weight: 99 -> 100
-Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
R.O.B.
-Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 17
Toon Link
-Walk Speed: 1.2265 -> 1.23
-Run Speed: 1.7325 -> 1.75
-Air Speed: 0.94 -> 1.14
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.2265 -> 1.23
Charizard
-Walk Speed: 1.2 -> 1.21
-Traction: 0.04 -> 0.06
-Air Speed: 0.92 -> 1.09
-Weight: 116 -> 118
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.2 -> 1.21
-Star Projectile Damage: 17 -> 19
Sonic
-Walk Speed: 1.375 -> 1.4
-Weight: 94 -> 95
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.375 -> 1.4
-Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
Jigglypuff
-Run Speed: 1.155 -> 1.1
-Air Speed: 1.269 -> 1.35
-Gravity: 0.053088 -> 0.05309
-Fall Speed: 0.98 -> 0.95
-Fast-Fall Speed: 1.568 -> 1.52
-Weight: 68 -> 70
Dr. Mario
-Walk Speed: 1.1 -> 1.188 (1.188 * 0.83 = 0.98604)
-Run Speed: 1.6 -> 1.728 (1.728 * 0.83 = 1.43424)
-Air Acceleration: 0.07 -> 0.0756 (0.0756 * 0.82 = 0.061992)
-Air Speed: 1.15 -> 1.242 (1.242 * 0.81 = 1.00602)
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.1 -> 0.98604
Lucina
-Star Projectile Damage: 13 -> 14
Dark Pit
-Walk Speed: 1.199 -> 1.2
-Run Speed: 1.66215 -> 1.663
-Air Speed: 0.89 -> 0.9
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.199 -> 1.2
-Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
Rosalina
-Walk Speed: 1.0835 -> 1.09
-Run Speed: 1.632 -> 1.65
-Air Speed: 1 -> 1.25
-Weight: 77 -> 85
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.0835 -> 1.09
-Star Projectile Damage: 11 -> 13
Wii Fit Trainer
-Run Speed: 1.696 -> 1.7
-Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
Little Mac
-Walk Speed: 1.32 -> 1.35
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.32 -> 1.35
Villager
-Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
Palutena
-Walk Speed: 1.21 -> 1.23
-Run Speed: 1.888 -> 1.9
-Air Speed: 0.91 -> 1.14
-Weight: 91 -> 95
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.21 -> 1.23
-Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
Robin
-Walk Speed: 0.891 -> 0.9
-Weight: 95 -> 98
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 0.891 -> 0.9
-Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
Duck Hunt
-Walk Speed: 1.155 -> 1.16
-Fall Speed: 1.65 -> 1.55
-Fast-Fall Speed: 2.64 -> 2.48
-Weight: 91 -> 90
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.155 -> 1.16
Bowser Jr.
-Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 17
Shulk
-Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
Greninja
-No changes
PAC-MAN
-Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
Mega Man
-Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
Mewtwo
-Walk Speed: 1.2 -> 1.21
-Fall Speed: 1.5 -> 1.68
-Fast-Fall Speed: 2.4 -> 2.688
-Weight: 74 -> 85
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.2 -> 1.21
-Star Projectile Damage: 11 -> 13
Ryu
-Weight: 103 -> 104
-Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
Lucas
-Air Acceleration: 0.085 -> 0.09
-Air Speed: 1.1 -> 1.05
Roy
-Fast-Fall Speed: 2.9 -> 2.88
-Weight: 95 -> 100
-Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 16
Cloud
-Weight: 100 -> 104
-Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
Bayonetta
-Weight: 84 -> 78
-Star Projectile Damage: 12 -> 11
Corrin
-Walk Speed: 1.15 -> 1.2
-Run Speed: 1.45 -> 1.5
-Air Speed: 0.97 -> 1.15
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.15 -> 1.2
Giga Bowser
-Star Projectile Damage: 61 -> 76
Wario-Man
-Weight: 107 -> 108
-Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 17
Giga Mac
-Star Projectile Damage: 21 -> 24
Mega Lucario
-Walk Speed: 1 -> 1.05
-Run Speed: 1.4847 -> 1.55
-Air Speed: 1.04 -> 1.1
-Weight: 99 -> 100
-Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1 -> 1.05
-Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
Mii Brawler (Fighting Mii Team)
-No changes
Mii Swordfighter (Fighting Mii Team)
-No changes
Mii Gunner (Fighting Mii Team)
-No changesThere's a difference between a little nerf to one or two elements of a kit and moderate nerfs to nearly every fundamental move to the character, plus a big nerf to Luma's HP. The HP nerf is probably the most manageable thing here, but what you did to jab is really unwarranted. Making it kill later is fine, adding 3 frames to make it as slow as Ganon's is not, and it completely destroys their neutral. Do you want to have your main move in neutral come out slower than most moves in the game? Ruining her neutral, plus weakening two of her main kill moves (probably her two main kill moves), removes her ability to compete at anything resembling viability. You've taken a character with a suffocating neutral and an occasional killing problem and turned them into a character with no neutral and bad killing. Also why'd you nerf Sheik's kill moves?
Even if luma's jab was completely removed, she'd have a good neutral. Rosas jab a lot because it's such a great option but luma still has things like a frame 3 (4 air) utilt. It's weird that rosa's jab is frame 8 but luma's is 4. I was thinking of rosa having a jab like bayo's- slow but racks up damage. Rosa herself has a really good usmash with front and top head intangibility, frame 6 grab/da/Dsmash, 5 Dtilt all with good range.
Rosa's jab isn't supposed to rack up damage. Its main goal is to quickly position Luma where you need her, and making it that slow guts the character. Even frame 5 would honestly be a bit too slow for what it does imo.
A 3-frame jumpsquat nerf is enough to send any top character in the game to mid tier or below without any other changes alone. 3 frames is enormous. Balance is a delicate art, but the way you're proposing balancing things isn't delicate, it's a slaughterhouse. A 1-frame nerf to a move is usually enough to change the move completely. For instance, Diddy Kong's up-air being nerfed by the removal of 1 frame from the animation made it almost completely unusable as an aerial escape option in disadvantage. Multiple 1-frame nerfs would ruin even the best character. A nerf of 1 frame to a jumpsquat nerfs all aerials by 1 frame.That's ridiculous.
"Make limit not buff Cloud's stats or charge from being hit. Jump squat from frame 4>7. Increase Uair landing lag. Slight lag increases across the board. Slight limit kill power nerfs."
Limit shouldn't make big sword Cloud faster in the air than Yoshi. A frame 7 js, same as Link and Robin is perfectly reasonable. Uair gives Cloud almost rosa like coverage with better air speed and he can land and combo from it; 12% 15 frames of landing lag, frame 7- Link's Fair (1 hit) is frame 14, 11% and 12 landing lag. Uair needs a nerf. Cloud would still be much better than Ganon currently is. He'd still be better than Link is.
My aim is similar to
1 Welcome to the life Robin and other zoners have to deal with.
It's fine to take a Brawl minus approach or whatever you want. My method is meet in the middle rather than leaving higher characters alone and super buffing low tiers to catch up. Make characters unique but as close in viability as possible. That means top tiers are getting nerfed. This happened to Diddy, Sheik and bayo in previous patches. Everyone thought their viability was killed, then players used their other options and they're all top 4 again.
Bringing every character to the middle simply sets the game's power level and has nothing to do with character uniqueness. Similarly Brawl minus could be balanced at an extreme power level.
Luigi player
's so far. I'm really curious to hear how
KuroganeHammer
would patch the game, since you archived the data.
-Air Speed increased (0.8 -> 0.9) -Decrease Air Speed (1.15 -> 0.98) - Reduce Aerial Up B distance by 20%