Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Gunla]

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v2.0 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

--------------------TOP--------------------
S:
A:
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B:
C:
--------------------MID---------------------
D:
E:
--------------------LOW-------------------
F:
G:
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H:

Graphic Version:

Special thanks to @shrooby for the image.

Spoiler: Addendum for Mii Fighters

27 votes had Mii Fighters. While we were not able to accrue enough data for XXXX Miis, we did find results with 1111 Miis, which placed them into the bottom tier as follows:
H:

Spoiler: Voting Data

Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group) | Weighted Group | Difference from v1.0
Diddy Kong | 1.32 | 1.501 | 9.88 | 0.391 | 9.95 | +8
Cloud | 2.18 | 2.18 | 9.84 | 0.418 | 9.91 | +10
Sheik | 2.66 | 2.734 | 9.65 | 0.7 | 9.82 | -2
Rosalina | 3.39 | 2.085 | 9.66 | 0.634 | 9.85 | -1
Mario | 4.88 | 2.443 | 9.33 | 0.786 | 9.62 | +3
Sonic | 5.39 | 2.756 | 9.29 | 0.733 | 9.61 | ±0
Fox | 5.88 | 2.376 | 9.15 | 0.776 | 9.56 | ±0
Zero Suit Samus | 7.09 | 2.182 | 8.83 | 0.782 | 9.28 | -6
Ryu | 8.41 | 4.165 | 8.68 | 0.874 | 9.14 | -5
Mewtwo | 8.46 | 3.07 | 8.72 | 0.73 | 9.21 | +27
Bayonetta | 8.93 | 3.914 | 8.74 | 0.885 | 9.14 | New
Pikachu | 13.88 | 3.274 | 7.67 | 0.9 | 8.26 | -7
Meta Knight | 14.54 | 5.931 | 7.62 | 1.092 | 8.17 | -4
Villager | 15.07 | 4.358 | 7.51 | 0.806 | 8.08 | -3
Mega Man | 15.93 | 5.837 | 7.4 | 0.937 | 7.95 | +13
Ness | 16.39 | 4.916 | 7.41 | 1.068 | 8 | -3
Toon Link | 16.64 | 3.739 | 7.23 | 0.836 | 7.82 | +5
Corrin | 17.85 | 6.337 | 7.15 | 1.107 | 7.66 | New
Marth | 19.36 | 6.852 | 7.01 | 1.063 | 7.47 | +23
Captain Falcon | 20.95 | 4.615 | 6.72 | 0.922 | 7.26 | -6
Greninja | 21.11 | 5.731 | 6.8 | 1.052 | 7.32 | +4
Lucario | 21.52 | 5.405 | 6.63 | 0.968 | 7.14 | +1
Yoshi | 23.64 | 5.201 | 6.42 | 0.984 | 6.9 | -8
Pit | 23.73 | 6.264 | 6.39 | 1.115 | 6.83 | -6
Donkey Kong | 24.41 | 4.854 | 6.27 | 0.98 | 6.68 | +2
Peach | 24.52 | 5.898 | 6.2 | 1.079 | 6.64 | -7
Dark Pit | 24.89 | 5.888 | 6.27 | 1.044 | 6.68 | -10
R.O.B. | 25.64 | 5.393 | 6.08 | 1.17 | 6.51 | -8
Luigi | 27.34 | 6.583 | 5.95 | 1.126 | 6.26 | -13
Olimar | 30.93 | 7.914 | 5.62 | 1.338 | 5.94 | -6
Robin | 30.98 | 6.396 | 5.42 | 0.931 | 5.61 | ±0
Bowser | 31.55 | 5.812 | 5.23 | 1.018 | 5.4 | -2
Lucas | 32.18 | 7.071 | 5.17 | 1.149 | 5.34 | +3
Wario | 32.61 | 4.471 | 5.26 | 0.943 | 5.43 | -13
Ike | 32.68 | 5.711 | 5.06 | 1.03 | 5.08 | -7
Lucina | 34.52 | 7.746 | 4.95 | 1.178 | 5.08 | +13
Mr. Game & Watch | 37.8 | 6.637 | 4.38 | 1.337 | 4.33 | +1
Pac-Man | 38.73 | 6.016 | 4.34 | 1.097 | 4.18 | -6
Little Mac | 38.8 | 6.891 | 4.21 | 1.149 | 4.01 | +7
Palutena | 38.91 | 5.881 | 4.11 | 1.156 | 3.94 | +12
Kirby | 39.27 | 6.413 | 4.23 | 1.166 | 4.06 | -5
Duck Hunt | 40 | 7.697 | 4.21 | 1.303 | 4.05 | +3
Link | 40.64 | 8.186 | 4.09 | 1.338 | 3.94 | +1
Shulk | 41.77 | 6.753 | 3.86 | 1.267 | 3.6 | -2
Samus | 42.66 | 6.459 | 3.71 | 1.186 | 3.49 | +8
Bowser Jr. | 43.18 | 5.907 | 3.61 | 1.138 | 3.33 | -10
Wii Fit Trainer | 43.18 | 5.465 | 3.65 | 1.043 | 3.35 | -5
Dr. Mario | 45.16 | 4.554 | 3.47 | 1.051 | 3.11 | -1
Falco | 45.75 | 4.141 | 3.25 | 1.036 | 2.86 | -9
Roy | 46.02 | 5.323 | 3.38 | 1.191 | 3.08 | -15
Charizard | 48.27 | 3.763 | 2.82 | 1.077 | 2.48 | ±0
King Dedede | 49.02 | 4.06 | 2.7 | 1.146 | 2.32 | -6
Mii Gunner | 51.26 | 6.322 | 2.28 | 1.124 | 1.7 | +2
Mii Brawler | 51.89 | 6.696 | 2.26 | 1.316 | 1.76 | -3
Zelda | 52.07 | 2.235 | 1.92 | 0.616 | 1.49 | +3
Ganondorf | 52.66 | 2.254 | 1.9 | 0.651 | 1.47 | ±0
Mii Swordfighter | 53.85 | 3.951 | 2.04 | 0.947 | 1.53 | -2
Jigglypuff | 53.98 | 1.433 | 1.72 | 0.604 | 1.35 | -1

Spoiler: Text Version

--------------------TOP--------------------
S: Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina, Mario, Sonic, Fox
A: Zero Suit Samus, Ryu, Mewtwo, Bayonetta
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B: Pikachu, Meta Knight, Villager, Mega Man, Ness
C: Toon Link, Corrin, Marth, Captain Falcon, Greninja, Lucario
--------------------MID---------------------
D: Yoshi, Pit, Donkey Kong, Peach, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Luigi
E: Olimar, Robin, Bowser, Lucas, Wario, Ike, Lucina
--------------------LOW-------------------
F: Mr. Game & Watch, Pac-Man, Little Mac, Palutena, Kirby, Duck Hunt, Link
G: Shulk, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, Falco, Roy
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H: Charizard, King Dedede, Zelda, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff

Spoiler: Smashboards Tier List Maker Version

You can read the full article here.

The Tier List v1.0 Impressions Thread can be found here for archival's sake.

As with v1.0, a fleshed out blurb as well as special thanks can b e found there, and should be the primary reference point. The tier list assumes no custom movesets. As with the last tier list thread, this thread is to focus on the list and not off-topic discussion; the article is there for you otherwise. Feel free to ask questions (you can tag myself or @Shaya if you'd like, and hopefully we can get a few more members on board to answer some questions!)

 

[Gunla]

Frequently Asserted Complaints (FACs)

"Headers and separations used aren't what I expected!"

Using the point gaps between averages, characters have been separated as you see them now. While seeing X character at the top is something many of you likely disagree with, the amount of characters in the highest tier is something more to remark on of how close they ended up being together. While this list suggests a definite #1, it's much closer than people probably want to make it out to be. As much as people like to knock this game's balance, it's actually a pretty well balanced game (outside of the glaring exceptions) for a large amount of the cast.

We decided to stick with individual letters purely because of aesthetic purposes. We could have used pluses or minuses but we felt that it looked a bit better. I wouldn't read too much into it, but we do appreciate that there is feedback coming on it.

"These orders are bad, this voting structure isn't accurate!"

Through the voting format's structure (as many chars as you want per tier, you can see my vote for an example), it would be wise to look at the data directly (applies to a lot) to address concerns. Tier divisions were created when certain gaps in the points were met (9.88 - 1.72 making up the entirety of the vote range, split into five for each of the tiers) and individual characters ended up in certain tiers based on their specific points (10-9, 9-8, etc) with a few exceptions (Greninja, Captain Falcon and Lucario being bumped up to high tier).

We also opted to do average group ratings to remove any sort of subjectivity; this made the tiers happen in the end. We opted to avoid single or double character tiers, as well as massive tiers with arguably too many characters, with the lowest amount of characters in a tier being 4 and the highest being 7.

"I CAN'T TELL IF IT IS RESULTS OR MATCH UP BASED TIER LIST!"

Results become more obvious basis for tiers in the long term. Match ups become more universally understood over time. Neither of these are even a fraction as extensive as Melee and Brawl (+64) with their many years of history. People naturally come closer to a consensus with these ideas through reinforcement and clarification. Until then, a single person's rhetoric may be a lot more influential on opinions than we'd hope.
This is where at least having a tier list is nice. When you can start to say to people who think X is a lot lower than they should be, "look at Y,Z,M,A,R,T,H; you think they're all as good? wow, look at these results" and it's pretty effective.

This is a huge cast (even bigger than Marvel VS Capcom 2 now!). For many voters this was the first time they had created a tier list earnestly (there were quite a few newcomers in addition to the veterans of the previous tier list) and we tried to keep the format a bit more streamlined this time around. We didn't strong arm anyone over whether they thought that X character is overrated due to how their match ups have personally gone at majors within the last 6 months, or underrated for the other reason.

Follow Up Article can be found here:
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v2-0-followup.441975/#post-21465542

 

[Gunla]

This is the most strictly moderated thread on Smashboards. Read the rules!

Welcome to the Character Competitive Impressions thread. This is the master discussion covering comparisons of characters in Smash 4.

This includes comparisons to specific other characters, or the roster in general.

This can be in theory, results, or personal experience.

And yes, this includes tier lists. But let's lay down some ground rules.

--------------------------------------------------

THE RULES

First, obey the Smashboards Global Rules. This subforum is intended to be the best discussion area Smashboards has to offer. Infractions for Spam, Flaming, Trolling, and Harassment are given out with less leniency here than anywhere else, and punishments tend to be roughly double.


Posts in this thread must also adhere to special Topic and Substance Rules. We allow such a broad spread of interwoven topics here, that we actually require more rules to prevent things from spiraling off-topic. (Defending a bigger territory requires bigger walls.)

There's really only one rule: Posts have to be on-topic and have substance. But that's ambiguous, and so as a guideline topics allowed for discussion in this thread are divided into "Green Topics" and "Yellow Topics".

Green Topics are central topics that are explicitly okay to discuss as much as you want:

• Hard Data on Character Usage or Wins
  • Online or Off
• Character Matchup Explorations
  • Options, Interactions, Mindset
  • Non-obvious Character/Move Advantages/Disadvantages
  • Data, Theorycraft, and Expert Opinions
  • What skill tests does the matchup focus on, for each side?
  • Stage Preferences
• Tournament Results
  • Characters or Players
• Metagame
  • Implications of rulesets, patches, or community trends
• Comparisons of Gameplay in Different Environments
  • Different Regions or Communities
  • 1v1 vs 2v2 vs 3v3 vs 4v4 vs FFA
• Initial Posting of Smash News

Yellow Topics include things that, without context, risk diverting the topic away from characters or boil down to opinion. You may talk about Yellow Topics, but if and only if you can tie each one back to a Green Topic in the same post. (If you are doing it right, this should be entirely organic and you shouldn't have to worry about it.)

• Tier Lists
  • Includes any form of partial tier list
  • "Top 15", bottom 10", "who is the worst character", "viable threats", ect.
• Character Matchup Lists/Summaries
  • Includes any form of matchup ratios
• Obvious Character/Move Advantages/Disadvantages
  • "Mac loses the matchup. He has an amazing ground game, but his recovery is awful."
  • "Mac wins the matchup. His recovery is awful, but he has an amazing ground game."
  • If the reasons you give for something are already known to all, you haven't done anything to make it more than a statement of opinion.
• "Vacuum" Comparisons
  • Direct comparison of individual moves or properties in isolation
  • "Which is better, Mario bair or Luigi bair?"
• Hypothetical Changes
  • Includes patch wishes
• Patch Notes
• Tournament Hype
  • "Wow, Reggie beats Bill 3-1."
  • "That dair spike! If she had just buffered that ledge option..."
  • "I can't believe he is sticking with Rosalina after that match."
• Rulesets
• Custom Moveset Choices
  
• Other Smash/Fighting Games
  • Includes changes to characters or matchups across games
  • Includes comparisons of tier lists or balance across games
  • Includes comparisons of which skills games focus on
• General Gameplay Advice or Guides
  • Giving or Asking
• Discussion of Smash News

Red Topics are explicitly banned. Any post that focuses on them is grounds for a spam infraction.

• Tier List Meta Discussion
  • "Do tiers exist? How about tires?"
  • "How important are tiers compared to player skill?"
  • "How should tier lists be constructed and expressed?"
  • "What do tier labels really mean?"
  • "What is the point of tier lists?"
• Matchup Ratio Meta Discussion
  • "What do/should matchup ratios mean, exactly?"
  • "What is the best way to express matchup ratios?"
  • "How precise can we really claim matchup ratios are?"
  • "What constitutes a 'counter'?"
• Game Preference Discussion
  • Includes how much you don't respect/like FFAs or online play.
• Ruleset Preference Discussion
• Non-Constructive Criticism (on any topic)
• Meta Discussion on Smashboards Rules
• Naming Moves or Combos

Finally, there are also special Tier List Posting Rules. Tier lists are a helpful way to quickly summarize and compare opinions+experience across the community, as well as provide historical snapshots of the metagame. However, the posting of tier lists often spreads like a virus and leads to a race-to-the-bottom in which discussion focuses more and more on stating opinions without substance. As such:

• If there is already a tier list post on the current 50-post page, no one else may post one.
  • No exceptions.
• They may only be posted by regular members of the discussion, or extremely well-respected players.
  • If you have to ask, the answer is no.
• We don't care about your opinions. We care about your observations, reflections, and conclusions. Never, ever post just a list.
  • Why did you need to post this list? What is different? What does it mean?
• Similarly, replies to a personal tier list are held to the same standard.
  • In particular, non-constructive criticism will be moderated harshly.
  • The correct response to a poor tier list, like most bad content, is to not respond.
• The creator of a list may answer single replies asking for clarifications, but further discussion of the list itself ends there.
  • If a personal tier list and any clarifications lead to discussion of Green Topics, great! But discussion will never be allowed to continue on a list itself, for its own sake.

Breaking these thread-specific rules is likely to result not only in (strict) standard moderation penalties, but is also likely to earn a temporary ban from this individual thread.

If you have any questions about these posting guidelines, please PM me ( Gunla ) or @Thinkaman!

--------------------------------------------------

Previous Threads:
http://smashboards.com/threads/first-official-4br-smash-for-wii-u-tier-list.429817/
http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v1-0-competitive-impressions.429826/
http://smashboards.com/threads/char...sions-tourneys-tiers-theories-tactics.422864/
http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-ratings-v2-competitive-impressions.410551/
http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-impressions-mlg-finals.420852/
http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-impressions-tbh5.419494/
http://smashboards.com/threads/evo-2kxv-competitive-impressions.410539/
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/

 

[SaltyKracka]

Ah, that new tier list smell.

I can practically taste the salt already.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The best part about this list for me is how Robin didn't move at all numerically but it's still considered a rise.

I do have faith in Wario making a comeback tho, so maybe #31 will be temporary come v3.

 

[Rizen]

@ the tier list, i could nitpick places but overall it looks pretty good. i agree with Link's placement to the tier.

 

[Zelder]

Big props to Mewtwo for jumping a whopping 27 places on the tier list.

By the same hand, eternal shame on Roy for dropping 15 points. It seems like the returning Melee DLC characters are of two minds: top tier or trash tier.

Get it together, Roy.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Oh, hello, there! I am glad to be part of this new thread.
I really don't know if I should open this can of worms, but... I am curious as to what people feel about Lucina, after this tier list.
Yes, she did rise and a lot, but... I still think she can be more than this.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I agree with this pretty much, although I think Lucas is severely underrated compared to Ness.
Lucas has lately totally outperformed Ness, gets just as much if not more off of grabs, is safer, and has arguably less trouble landing the stock.

 

[Gunla]

Big props to Mewtwo for jumping a whopping 27 places on the tier list.

By the same hand, eternal shame on Roy for dropping 15 points. It seems like the returning Melee DLC characters are of two minds: top tier or trash tier.

Get it together, Roy.

Don't forget about Marth's +23 jump~

 

[GeflGabe]

Looks like Marth is now rank C. Joy. (Not that tiers matter that much.) Just glad to see my main on high tier.
But I'm surprised that ZSS is just A rank now.

 

[ARGHETH]

Ganondorf, Charizard, Robin, Sonic, and Fox didn't move...

 

[jespoke]

I'm sort of confused by the wording about how the tier divisions were determined. Was it split at the biggest difference-points and then the <4 man tiers merged into their nearest tier, and then the huge tiers split at a convenient point?

 

[Locuan]

I still think she can be more than this.

It's a difficult subject for many reasons as you can imagine. I feel she could be higher as well. However, a lack of representation and results does speak for itself in many cases. In Puerto Rico, we did have a Lucina who placed well in many tournaments, top 8 rather consistently. Yet, he backed the character up with Peach. Nowadays, he completely switched to Bayonetta and falls in the top 10 for our Power Rankings.

 

[BananaBake]

So what's the first argument we're gonna get into, guys?

 

[Mr. Johan]

So what's the first argument we're gonna get into, guys?

Charizard is secretly high mid tier with a commanding Usmash, Jab, Grab, Nair, and Fair, and the freest ledgeguarding in the game, and the only reason he isn't so right now is because people are too scared to use him and damage the meta.

Go.

 

[Rizen]

Don't forget about Marth's +23 jump~

The patch deities were good to him.

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

I think the tier list is overall pretty good. It's hard to make an accurate tier list of 58 characters, and this one did a fine job for the most part. Everyone may have minor nitpicks, but I'd say it's fairly reflective of the current metagame. Anything below High Tier is still hard to place though.

 

[SaltyKracka]

So what's the first argument we're gonna get into, guys?

I was thinking a rousing row about why people keep treating Lucina like an inferior Marth (while totally ignoring the fact that she is exactly that)

 

[Deathcarter]

Dang, surprise tier list out of nowhere!

& with those massive jumps warms my heart.

 

[Pazzo.]

New thread, new theories.

Can't wait to see how long it takes before we attack Pikachu again.

 

[FamilyTeam]

It's a difficult subject for many reasons as you can imagine. I feel she could be higher as well. However, a lack of representation and results does speak for itself in many cases. In Puerto Rico, we did have a Lucina who placed well in many tournaments, top 8 rather consistently. Yet, he backed the character up with Peach. Nowadays, he completely switched to Bayonetta and falls in the top 10 for our Power Rankings.

Yeah, I know very well figuring out a placement for her can be difficult. It does feel like Lucina is a bunch of unexplored territory. I sure hope us from the Lucina community can try out best.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Just as my initial impression, I'd like to comment...that considering the diverse assortment of top players who contributed to this list, each with their own mental blocks, character biases, operational definitions, criteria for certain things...this list is very good.

Like a lot of us here I have many placements and rankings that I find highly questionable and I could sit here and list them all but I'm sure others will point them out with much more eloquence and respect for the nuances of the metagame than I can. The important thing is that we finally have a list that at least somewhat accurately reflects the current metagame, and that's something we haven't had for months now. This list is essential to tiering discussion because even though it's not perfect, it gives us a competent foundation for discussion.

EDIT: is anyone else lowkey dying at the fact that all the characters in the F - G tiers are the most common on for glory

 

[Jaguar360]

I absolutely love the new BR tier list.

• Top tier makes sense. I would place Mewtwo higher personally for his matchup spread, scary tools and strong results from the few top players who do use him, but you could honestly construct an argument for any of the top tiers to be top 5, so I don't really have any qualms.
• That Pikachu placement is PERFECT! I was so worried that people were going to underrate him so much that he'd be like 20th, but thankfully he ended up just where he should be for now, right below top tier at 12th. He obviously lacks the results to be top tier or anything at the moment, but his matchup spread, neutral and edgeguarding are all just way too strong to be much lower than he is on this new list.
  
• The rest of the high tier placements are just really solid. I would personally switch Toon Link and Megaman, but Megaman's still done enough to justify his 15th placement and is good enough on paper to warrant that placing I guess, so good stuff.
  
• Mid tier is good. Obviously people with have some qualms about underrated and overrated characters, but I think the grouping of these characters in mid tier is more important than their specific placements for now. Lucina's placement could be controversial, but considering how the voting was done, it's not surprising that her placement was a bit odd considering that people are so split on whether she is right below Marth or if she's a low tier character.
• Low tier probably has my only major qualm which is Wii Fit Trainer's placement. She doesn't fit as a bottom 10 character when she gets good results with John Numbers and Waveguider in spite of her low representation among players and doesn't really lose any matchups too hard aside from like Kirby to my knowledge. She's also got that solid mobility, super good edgeguarding and stupidly good projectiles. As long as John keeps stomping over New York like he does, I don't see this position working. Overall a good tier though, Wii Fit's placing isn't horrible per se.
• Bottom tier works. Zelda bottom 5, Charizard at the top, Mii Gunner outside of bottom 5...yeah that seems about right. If Mii Brawler was bottom 3 on the Mii version, it would be just right I think. Tbh, I think Jiggs has more redeeming factors than 1111 SF and Brawler since her insanely good edgeguarding and small stature alone give her a niche in a few matchups whereas those two Miis don't really have one without access to their other Mii Specials. Again though, no major qualms.

Also just want to say thanks to the backroom for getting this out. Post-SSC was good timing.

 

[BlazGreen]

There's a few characters I'd bump up a tier like Lucas and Marth and there's a few I'd drop down like ZSS and Ness but for the most part it's a decent list. I'm just glad we got a new one.

 

[LRodC]

Mewtwo's place is almost perfect. I'd put Mewtwo at 9, Bayo at 10, and Ryu at 11. Otherwise, top tier looks good.

 

[EternalFlare]

1.

Ryu shouldn't be 9th place. The characters around him have gotten top 8s at super stacked majors repeatedly over a long period of time. Whereas Ryu's best rep drowns in pools (CEO) or gets 25th (SSC). His results when it matters most are laughably bad.

"B-But he made 9th at Evo that one time!!"

Yeah so did Pit, why isn't he top 10? You have to look at overall results at nationals paying attention especially to recent placings. Ryu has nowhere near the results of a top 10 character. Putting him that high next to characters with actual results is just wishful thinking.

2. Pikachu being that high is a total joke. He does NOT have the results or the matchup spread of a top 15 character. He loses to nearly all top tiers and disjoints in general, that's 20 characters right there where he has losing matchups against. He hasn't done anything relevant at nationals in ages. This tier list has taken quite some time to get out, how it could be so horribly outdated on something is beyond me. Did Esam play a part in this tier list or something?

3. Charizard is ranked way too low. The character has the best neutral and disadvantage state out of all the super heavy weights by far. That alone is enough to not make him bottom 5.

4. Lucas definitely deserves to be over Ness at this point looking at results. His arguably worse kill power is more than made up by a superior recovery and neutral.

 

[Luco]

I absolutely love the new BR tier list.

• Top tier makes sense. I would place Mewtwo higher personally for his matchup spread, scary tools and strong results from the few top players who do use him, but you could honestly construct an argument for any of the top tiers to be top 5, so I don't really have any qualms.
• That Pikachu placement is PERFECT! I was so worried that people were going to underrate him so much that he'd be like 20th, but thankfully he ended up just where he should be for now, right below top tier at 12th. He obviously lacks the results to be top tier or anything at the moment, but his matchup spread, neutral and edgeguarding are all just way too strong to be much lower than he is on this new list.
  
• The rest of the high tier placements are just really solid. I would personally switch Toon Link and Megaman, but Megaman's still done enough to justify his 15th placement and is good enough on paper to warrant that placing I guess, so good stuff.
  
• Mid tier is good. Obviously people with have some qualms about underrated and overrated characters, but I think the grouping of these characters in mid tier is more important than their specific placements for now. Lucina's placement could be controversial, but considering how the voting was done, it's not surprising that her placement was a bit odd considering that people are so split on whether she is right below Marth or if she's a low tier character.
• Low tier probably has my only major qualm which is Wii Fit Trainer's placement. She doesn't fit as a bottom 10 character when she gets good results with John Numbers and Waveguider in spite of her low representation among players and doesn't really lose any matchups too hard aside from like Kirby to my knowledge. She's also got that solid mobility, super good edgeguarding and stupidly good projectiles. As long as John keeps stomping over New York like he does, I don't see this position working. Overall a good tier though, Wii Fit's placing isn't horrible per se.
• Bottom tier works. Zelda bottom 5, Charizard at the top, Mii Gunner outside of bottom 5...yeah that seems about right. If Mii Brawler was bottom 3 on the Mii version, it would be just right I think. Tbh, I think Jiggs has more redeeming factors than 1111 SF and Brawler since her insanely good edgeguarding and small stature alone give her a niche in a few matchups whereas those two Miis don't really have one without access to their other Mii Specials. Again though, no major qualms.

Also just want to say thanks to the backroom for getting this out. Post-SSC was good timing.

Not to undermine your overall points because I like these impressions but Waveguider is using far more Greninja than Wii Fit these days. Whether he wants to pick Wii Fit for certain MUs is still possibly a thing, but if I had to guess I'd say he's feeling less and less confident in his WFT as a relevant meta character. He may have finally come to the point where he feels she's holding him back, or he may re-dedicate himself and pull her out again in the near future.

Which is actually a good time for me to mention Australia's coming up to another major, OzHadou Nationals. It's being held in my own hometown of Sydney and although the raw numbers add up to only just over half of BAM (I believe 136 might be the final entrants number?) in terms of our current meta and the amount of high-level players coming it's looking really stacked for an Aussie event and should reveal a lot as to whether we learnt anything from BAM or not. There may be an article about it on the front page, but if not I'll give you guys more information before the week's end, as it's happening this very weekend, the 26th-28th August. We'll definitely have a stream going which I will also link you and there may actually be 2.

So get hype, and if you're still keeping up to date with our scene there'll be no better time to watch than now!

 

[jet56]

The list itself looks much better than the last one. Of course, everyone is going to have some arguments about placings of certain characters, which isn't a bad thing, as it shows how balanced the game is and that a good majority of the cast is viable.

Being a Mac main, i am a tad irked he's still considered low tier, He has way too much going for him in his character and his representation to be Low tier. People give arguments of "can't land" "bad recovery" so on so on. But people haven't seen how mac can deal with that. He actually CAN land, the only "bad" part about his recovery is the distance, and His ground moveset and kill ability, combined with his movement speed is just too amazing for him to be low tier.

I would dare argue he's top 20, but again, character bias here. He should objectively be mid tier though 25-30.

 

[FeelMeUp]

2. Pikachu being that high is a total joke. He does NOT have the matchup spread of a top 15 character

I think pretty much everyone can disagree with this, actually.
Even with/very slightly losing to Sheik, beats Diddy, beats Cloud, beats ZSS, beats Rosa, even with Sonic, beats Fox, etc.
losing MUs are Mario, G&W, Ness, MK, and one or two others.
So a 6:4 or 65:35 in Mario and -1s vs a bunch of fairly uncommon characters.
That's certainly a top 15 MU spread.

 

[C0rvus]

I was of the mind that Lucas is better than Ness for a while, and he very well could be. Taiheita puts out good results with the character. I think that Ness's kit has enough good in it that he can't possibly be lower than upper mid at the very worst. He has the potential for comebacks or early kills at all times, and has the stability of a very powerful kill throw. That may or may not be more valuable than Lucas's better neutral and recovery in this game. Just some food for thought.

Also new thread hype. I'm not going to talk about the list because I feel like I have little to add. Lots to say about it though.

 

[|RK|]

Charizard is secretly high mid tier with a commanding Usmash, Jab, Grab, Nair, and Fair, and the freest ledgeguarding in the game, and the only reason he isn't so right now is because people are too scared to use him and damage the meta.

Go.

If it's not all talk, ANTi plans on bringing out Charizard as a CP to Mario. So I suppose we'll see?

 

[EternalFlare]

I think pretty much everyone can disagree with this, actually.
Even with/very slightly losing to Sheik, beats Diddy, beats Cloud, beats ZSS, beats Rosa, even with Sonic, beats Fox, etc.
losing MUs are Mario, G&W, Ness, MK, and one or two others.
So a 6:4 or 65:35 in Mario and -1s vs a bunch of fairly uncommon characters.
That's certainly a top 15 MU spread.

On what planet does Pika beat Diddy or Cloud? Because he can edge guard them well? So can a ton of other characters, good luck getting in on a good Diddy with Pikachu. Same goes for Cloud. If the criteria for beating Diddy or Cloud was simply if your character can edge guard them well, they would lose to more than half the cast and would be low tier. It's a very absurd argument. Pika's neutral cannot contend with these characters.

He definitely does not beat Rosalina either. Fallen beat Nakat. Dabuz easily defeated Esam recently.

He also loses to Marth, Lucina and Tink. And probably Corrin, Luigi and Lucas as well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How the **** does Pika beat Diddy?

 

[Appledees]

Surprised that DK is still that high even though I haven't seen him do really much recently.

I won't lie I sorta have bias towards DK but has he honestly done anything notable recently as far results go to warrant that placement next to the other characters in that tier? What about his mu spread with the characters around and above him?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Pikachu is widely accepted to beat Diddy and this is coming from a Diddy main. Can camp him out with tjolts, edgeguard him, makes great use of the banana, Diddy can't deal with quick attack all that well and all his rising aerials whiff a standing pikachu.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

To see Cloud at 2nd is not surprising though completely inaccurate, as I've argued many times.
How did Ryu end up 9th? Above Mewtwo and Bayonetta? That seems too high, even using 'potential' as an argument.
I really think top tier is stretching it for Ryu, he just doesn't belong alongside ZSS et al right now.
Sad to see ... inconsistencies like these make me question the whole methodology behind this tier list.

Lower down the tiers I think DK is too high, especially compared with Bowser. DK is bad, not high mid tier.
I also don't see what Corrin has done to be ranked alongside Toon Link and Marth, two strictly better characters.
Seeing Falcon up there is good though, I was afraid people would start sleeping on him. He's still a respectable character.
That's honestly kinda bad of an upper half for me already. Let's look at the lower half, shall we!

Seeing Duck Hunt who has respectable results in a Low Tier but Wario who has forgettable results in mid tier is a bad start.
Unnecessarily low imo. Duck Hunt is not a bad character, japanese results still aren't respected enough it seems.
Can't really say I agree with a lot of the lower half in general. Pac-Man as a low tier is too much. Roy isn't that bad.
Kirby is surprisingly high. Not that I disagree with his placing but he has like no results compared to DHD or Link.
So all in all I see a lot of tiny things that make me not like this one very much but I expected it so it's w/e.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's a difficult subject for many reasons as you can imagine. I feel she could be higher as well. However, a lack of representation and results does speak for itself in many cases. In Puerto Rico, we did have a Lucina who placed well in many tournaments, top 8 rather consistently. Yet, he backed the character up with Peach. Nowadays, he completely switched to Bayonetta and falls in the top 10 for our Power Rankings.

That's fair. Hopefully public perception changes and more and more players start to use her at higher levels of play.

It's all on Lucina mains at this point.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm slightly confused by something, wasn't Ike considered the best FE character? I hear Japan's Smash 4 community helped with this, which I find odd. Japan had their own tier lists for previous games and I doubt Japan's stigma for Ike's redesign made him that much lower compared to previous FE characters

 

[FeelMeUp]

Diddy's weight and size are perfect for Pika's combos. Diddy can't monkey flip much if at all in neutral. Pika low profiles rising fair during most standing moves like jab and dtilt. Diddy doesn't have many real answers to QA without banana already in hand. Diddy legitimately cannot do ANYTHING to a Pika camping with the lead. Bair covers both monkey flip and barrels, killing Diddy instantly if you connect and fastfall anywhere from ledge height below. Pika's dtilt can stuff Diddy's dtilt. PP Utilt ruins Diddy's aerial approaches and bair crossup attempts.
etc.
The mu is no worse than 55:45 because Diddy's dtilt conversions are bonkers in this MU, Pika is super susceptible to JCIT banana combos, and Pika's QA can be beaten out by fair but a loss is a loss.
every pika and diddy player accepts that Pika wins this. should not be news.