****

[Battlecow]

I was thinking about how much the SWF censor sucks (*****es don't get to see my fabulous cursing skillz) when I saw a post by some melee guy. basically, it said

"raaaaaaaaape"

Now, y'all have seen this. You've heard it. I'm not trying to be super PC or anything, but isn't it- at the very least- in incredibly poor taste? I mean, we're not allowed to say "fuck" on this forum, even though it's used (more often than not) in the context of consensual rather than nonconsensual sex, or just as a filler expletive and linguistic jack-of-all-trades. And yet, "****" isn't just uncensored; it's used in a positive way. If it was "just a word," sure, whatever, I'd have no problem. But the way it's used is very much a reflection of its original meaning.

When someone "*****" someone in smash, it doesn't just mean they beat them badly. It means they dominated them, controlled them, etc. Basically, you're saying that the winner defeated the loser so badly that it reminded you of the complete control a man takes when he ***** a woman. You're saying that a successful sexual assault is akin to an exhilarating victory. Distinctly unpleasant, in my mind.

Yes, I understand that people are mostly using it out of habit, or because they don't give a ****. I'm not saying it's being used maliciously. But for god's sake, look at our image. I'm not saying it'll keep girls out, because girls can't play video games anyways, but any sort of mainstream recognition of smash will be slowed by the presence of language which, to an outsider, paints a picture of us as truly degenerate and vile basement-dwellers, rather than just lovable, dedicated basement-dwellers (which is what most of us are). This hasn't been a big deal yet because, well, we don't have an image, but I wouldn't want to show any reasonably classy acquaintances certain commentated melee vids, no matter how cool, because there's a dude saying "*****. Anal. No spit." The other day, my girlfriend caught me watching a video entitled "Mr. **** & Watch 2." Come on, people.

 

[ballin4life]

Do you ever use the phrase "killed"? How about "murdered"?

E.g. "I killed you" or "wow battlecow got murdered by Nova".

 

[asianaussie]

you have no idea how much i laughed when i saw battlecow had created a thread called '****'

 

[Dre89]

Apart from the fact that the word offends a lot of people, particularly **** victims, the word is not used in a lot of environments structured to omit coarse language, such as kid's shows.

At the same time, unlike the F word, which is just a bad word all round, because it is a synonym with a vulgar connotation, ****'s vulgarity is contextual.

For example, sports commentators wouldn't say the defender ***** the attacker, but they'd say he's facing a **** charge.

The reason why even the latter is omitted from kid's shows is because it represents an adult theme, rather than for being vulgar.

 

[Battlecow]

Do you ever use the phrase "killed"? How about "murdered"?

E.g. "I killed you" or "wow battlecow got murdered by Nova".

**** is used more seldomly, and socially, it carries heavier implications. Also, our usage of the word is linked to the act in a way that our usage of "murdered" really isn't (I can't prove that, of course, it's just gut etymology). No one outside of smash would use "****" in the way we do.

Anyways, like I said in the OP, I get the "words are as bad as you make them" perspective, but in terms of image? Come on. It's just not gonna appeal to outsiders. We're making ourselves look repulsive.

 

[Lord Chair]

It's not a Smash community specific term, it's widely used across the internet as well as in 'real life'.

 

[ballin4life]

**** is used more seldomly, and socially, it carries heavier implications. Also, our usage of the word is linked to the act in a way that our usage of "murdered" really isn't (I can't prove that, of course, it's just gut etymology). No one outside of smash would use "****" in the way we do.

I disagree about the link; I think you're just desensitized to the use of "murder" or "kill" since it is commonplace.

Anyways, like I said in the OP, I get the "words are as bad as you make them" perspective, but in terms of image? Come on. It's just not gonna appeal to outsiders. We're making ourselves look repulsive.

I 100% agree that most people are going to be more ok with "kill" or "murder" than "****". I bring up the example when this topic comes up because it can show how someone's outrage doesn't make sense when you think about it.

 

[A1lion835]

I don't get these debates over words; your point reminds me of people who get angry about "gay." One meaning of **** is about someone (not always a woman) being forced into sexual acts. The other is about someone playing a video game.

The word "right" has to do with direction, veracity, and political beliefs, but no one cares. No one objects when you describe a politician as "Right" because they know what you mean. Being someone with an IQ above 23, I can tell from context what meaning "right" has, as I can with "****" and "gay." If you can't -- well, that's not my problem.

 

[Alien Vision]

I don't get these debates over words; your point reminds me of people who get angry about "gay." One meaning of **** is about someone (not always a woman) being forced into sexual acts. The other is about someone playing a video game.

The word "right" has to do with direction, veracity, and political beliefs, but no one cares. No one objects when you describe a politician as "Right" because they know what you mean. Being someone with an IQ above 23, I can tell from context what meaning "right" has, as I can with "****" and "gay." If you can't -- well, that's not my problem.

I love you.

 

[ciaza]

I don't get these debates over words; your point reminds me of people who get angry about "gay." One meaning of **** is about someone (not always a woman) being forced into sexual acts. The other is about someone playing a video game.

The word "right" has to do with direction, veracity, and political beliefs, but no one cares. No one objects when you describe a politician as "Right" because they know what you mean. Being someone with an IQ above 23, I can tell from context what meaning "right" has, as I can with "****" and "gay." If you can't -- well, that's not my problem.

Well how about I introduce a new term? "Qunt". Said the same way as you would pronounce the c-word. It doesn't mean anything at all, in fact whenever I call someone a qunt I am actually complimenting a player on his abilities. Is this term acceptable? How about: "you qunty qunt quntosaurus rex from quntsville?"

This is not a joke point btw. I'm Australian. We call random people mates and our mates c*nts. And I do use all variations of that word a lot in real life.

 

[A1lion835]

I have absolutely no problem with you saying a word that offends some people. I can say that the word "an" offends me, but that doesn't mean anything. It still doesn't mean anything if I get 10 million people to say they're offended by it. If your only objection to something is that it offends you, I will take great pleasure in shoving your face into a meat grinder. If you object because something is offensive, that's an entirely different matter. If you object to something because it violates your rights, that's also a different matter. If I shove your face into a meat grinder, you've got a pretty solid case against me (or at least, the relatives who survive you do), not because being shoved into the meat grinder offended you, but because it was your right not to have your unwilling body shoved into it.

...I might've gone a bit off topic there. But bringing it back: "I'm offended" and "That's offensive" are two very separate things. This is something a hell of a lot of people need to get over -- just because something is offensive to you doesn't mean it's wrong or offensive to everyone. It might make me a jerk if I go up to a **** victim and use "****" lightly, but that doesn't mean it's wrong or should be illegal.

I am completely fine with you calling me a qunt, though I think I could suggest a less ambiguous word for you to use. The reason people don't object to the use of "right" is that it's entirely context-dependent and nonambiguous: no one in their right (haha) mind will think I'm talking about a direction when I say "You have the right answer." This is how I view words like "****" and "gay": it's not hard for me to tell when someone means which meanings. If my friend says, "Man, that Meta Knight went really gay on you," I know what he means. Gay has three meanings: one is synonymous with happiness, one is synonymous with homosexual, and one (exactly one) is pejorative. It's the same with your homophonic "qunt" and the c-word. It wouldn't make sense for you to call me, a guy, a c-word, so I know you're talking about the q-word. As such, I have no reason to be offended. And even if I were offended, as I've said, that's not yet grounds for anything.

 

[ciaza]

That's a good post, however not everyone is going to know the hidden meanings of words we use. Going back to my example of "qunt", to someone who has no knowledge of the meaning I have given my word they are going to assume that I meant it in a derogatory manner. This problem could also be applied to "****". People outside the videogame scene might not have adapted or even heard of the curt mannerisms and meanings of words that we use such as **** or qunt. It's very ambiguous. This could be seen as a huge turn-off to those people with even a mild interest of our beloved game.

Otherwise I agree with what you said.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

I think we have an issue here with this. The issue is that the more we use terms like this, the less potency they have. If I keep using the s-word as a synonym for "stuff", it's negative connotations disappear and it quickly becomes meaningless. It means that I have to start searching for more colourful and explicit terms. And that's fine with terms that are merely used for insults, but **** describes something very serious indeed - sexual assault through sexual intercourse without consent. So here we are, diminishing the meaning of "sexual intercourse without consent", which is stupid, because it means a great deal to those who it happens to.

It all comes down to this: We're comparing being beaten in a video game to being *****. It shows how much we really care about **** - not very much. It's insensitive and very offensive to the victims of **** and those who know those victims (I'm not even going to use that word in front of any girls I know). And it's got to change.

Though as for censoring this word, I don't believe it should happen because I don't like censorship. Do we have any other word that means the same thing? For the f-word, we have sex and for the s-word, we have excrement, but for ****, is there really anything else? I think what needs to happen is a cultural change, we males need to understand the significance of this issue. I think in the video game community, we need to start finding far more interesting and tasteful terms such as: "cut", "smashed", "burnt", "pwned" (c'mon, we denizens of the internet invented "pwned"!), "ripped", "shattered", "destroyed" etc. to describe being beaten rather badly.

If it's too much to ask to do it for reasons of being nice to those affected by **** and sexual assault, then think of it this way: how many women are you going to win with a vocabulary like that?

 

[A1lion835]

I'm sure calling me (or someone random chick) a qunt could be perceived as derogatory, but how something is perceived is different from how it's intended.

I'm sure some people won't understand what "****" means in the context of a video game, but it's certainly not my responsibility if they jump to conclusions about what it means in-context.

If your main concern is attracting people to the smash scene, then by all means work to either promote knowledge of its second meaning or to decrease its use. But just because something could be misinterpreted doesn't mean it's bad.

Ninja edit: We perceive the world in different ways. By giving someone directions, I in no way try to affect the other meanings of "right." When I use "****" it has one of two clearly-defined meanings. One is about nonconsensual intercourse, the other is about a video game. I in no way try to mix the two meanings, or desensitize people to one of them. The word has multiple meanings which are drastically different from each other.

How many women I'm going to bag through the use of my language has nothing to do with the morality of it.

I'll stop using **** in the non-sexual sense on one condition: I'm a man who used to describe myself as happy using the word "gay," and I think it's terribly insensitive that the word is now used to refer to homosexuals, and I'd really appreciate it if, as a society, we moved on and let me use a word to describe my emotions without other people thinking I'm attracted to men.

The above argument is ridiculous because of what I've been saying before: just because something offends you is not a basis for attacking it. "****" offends plenty of people who've had to suffer it (and I mean in no way to play down their suffering). Gay people offend plenty of religious fanatics. But that doesn't mean anything. It's certainly too much to ask for gay people to stop being gay to be nice to the fanatics who've had to deal with being in a world where gay people exist.

 

[ciaza]

The thing I'm getting at though is that one meaning is blatantly more popular than the other. You could equate it to inside-joke of sorts. For people not on the inside of the smash community, the term **** is going to be "assumed" to mean the more popular definition. However, is it wrong for them to "jump to conclusions" when presented with that term? I don't believe so. Take this example from the sit-com Scrubs:

J.D.: I can totally explain why Jamie said that. You know how Turk always says "hey, player" when he means "hey, buddy"?
Elliot: Yeah...?
J.D.: Well, Jamie's from Cincinnati, and in Cincinnati they say, "Hey, sl*t!"
Elliot: Oh... Neat!

Now, later on Elliot calls Jamie a sl*t. Jamie gets angry. Is Jamie justified in her anger? Although Elliot's intentions were good, the term was still took badly. It wasn't an offensive term as you would say, but rather it offended her.

Basically, it's dubious on whether or not the word **** does have two clearly defined meanings.

 

[Battlecow]

It might make me a jerk if I go up to a **** victim and use "****" lightly, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Kinda does actually, but I get your point. My point is this- Yeah. I get the "words are words" thing. It's not inherently bad, and a from a certain point of view, those who stop you from saying it are a bunch of prudes or whatever. But the reality is this- it will be viewed by 99% of people as incredibly crass and insensitive. Now, you could try to promote knowledge of the "alternate meaning" or whatever. Sure. Good luck with that. Or you could just not use "****" in that sense.

Look, I don't believe that using swear words is in any way "bad," or that I'm a bad person for using them. But I wouldn't go up to my grandfather and ask "What's up, mother****er?," Because he'd beat my ***, and I'd deserve it for being a classless little prick. It's a social thing; even if it doesn't make sense, follow the rules.

 

[A1lion835]

@ciaza: Your question simplifies to "Who is in the wrong on this social misunderstanding?" to which my answer is "That's a stupid question." Elliot takes a risk using a word that offends some people that he doesn't know won't offend Jamie (he's only been told that it won't). Jamie reacts under the assumption that "sl*t" is always an offensive term. They both should have behaved differently: Elliot acted without sufficient evidence that "sl*t" wouldn't be seen as an insult, and Jamie acted without considering that her friend Elliot was making a miscommunication (maybe she thinks Elliot is a jerk though -- I don't watch the show).

@Battlecow: It's definitely entirely social. That doesn't mean the current social norm is 100% correct. If you've looked at my on-and-off PG activity, you know I'm all about social reform.

 

[ciaza]

But you have to draw the line between an assumption and just plain using inductive reasoning. If some random person came up to me and started calling me all sorts of foul language, I shouldn't have to just stand there and think: "hmmmm, well maybe his intentions are good and he has a different definition on these horrible, mean, nasty words that I do, even though the far and away more popular definitions of these words are derogatory". I should be allowed to use everyday inductive reasoning in order to process that yes he is insulting me.

 

[Alien Vision]

But you have to draw the line between an assumption and just plain using inductive reasoning. If some random person came up to me and started calling me all sorts of foul language, I shouldn't have to just stand there and think: "hmmmm, well maybe his intentions are good and he has a different definition on these horrible, mean, nasty words that I do, even though the far and away more popular definitions of these words are derogatory". I should be allowed to use everyday inductive reasoning in order to process that yes he is insulting me.

There is also a fine line drawn to seperate common sense, and obvious insulting, with the obvious context of said word.

 

[Aesir]

It's original meaning (which I admit is rarely used anymore.) means to pillage or plunder, or destroy.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

I'm sure some people won't understand what "****" means in the context of a video game, but it's certainly not my responsibility if they jump to conclusions about what it means in-context.

The issue is not misunderstandings, it is the comparison between winning a video game and actually ****** someone. If we are actually capable of doing that, it shows that we don't really care about ****, and we really should care about it.

Ninja edit: We perceive the world in different ways. By giving someone directions, I in no way try to affect the other meanings of "right." When I use "****" it has one of two clearly-defined meanings. One is about nonconsensual intercourse, the other is about a video game. I in no way try to mix the two meanings, or desensitize people to one of them. The word has multiple meanings which are drastically different from each other.

Actually I'm sure that you do desensitise people to the other meaning of ****. It's used so often that it's other meaning is neglected. If it's other meaning is being neglected, we don't care about it, despite the fact that it occurs to a significant number of people.

I'll stop using **** in the non-sexual sense on one condition: I'm a man who used to describe myself as happy using the word "gay," and I think it's terribly insensitive that the word is now used to refer to homosexuals, and I'd really appreciate it if, as a society, we moved on and let me use a word to describe my emotions without other people thinking I'm attracted to men.

The offensive nature of the word is actually secondary to my main point: Using "****" in a casual context diminishes its meaning, and is symptomatic of how much we actually care about ****; not very much. And I think it also perpetuates this because if we think of a video game when we hear the word ****, we stop thinking about the actual subject of ****. And there are actually people out there who treat **** as a joke, and believe that ****** a woman isn't a big deal. When we diminish the meaning of the word "****" or show that we don't care about it, we are validating their position, we are taking their side. Some of "them" will actually go on to **** women.

For example: If I'm using "murder" all the time without referring to the act of killing someone, the word as I say it, is going to lose its original meaning and take on another one. The fact that I'm using it casually means that I don't actually care about the act of murder, because I'm comparing it something far less severe. This much the same in regards to the word "****".

The above argument is ridiculous because of what I've been saying before: just because something offends you is not a basis for attacking it. "****" offends plenty of people who've had to suffer it (and I mean in no way to play down their suffering). Gay people offend plenty of religious fanatics. But that doesn't mean anything. It's certainly too much to ask for gay people to stop being gay to be nice to the fanatics who've had to deal with being in a world where gay people exist.

Asking people to stop using a word because it offends a lot of people is actually relatively easy in comparison to asking some people to completely change their personalities. I think the comparison you are making is flawed.

Also, is it acceptable to use racist language or homophobic language any more? Why not? Because it is offensive to those from said minority groups. What's wrong with slightly altering our vocabularies to be less offensive?

 

[Battlecow]

@Battlecow: It's definitely entirely social. That doesn't mean the current social norm is 100% correct. If you've looked at my on-and-off PG activity, you know I'm all about social reform.

OK, you're about social reform. Pick your battles, man. This community's well-being depends to a large extent on our not acting like classless little pricks, and part of not acting like classless little pricks is not using "****" the way we do.