3.6 ZSS Discussion

[Legit]

These buffs. :D

From the PM site:

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Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--All hitbox sizes increased from 3 to 4

Grabs
-Standing Grab, Dash Grab, Turnaround Grab
--Animations redone or polished, now easier to see her grabbing arm.
--Dash Grab can now grab opponents with low crouch if well timed.

Throws
-Up Throw
--Angle increased from 82 to 85.
--Cooldown -3 (weight dependent)
-Down Throw
--Angle increased from 60 to 65.

Specials
-Neutral Special (Paralyzer)
--Charged laser speed decreased from 2.1 to 1.5.
--No longer reverse hits

-Side Special (Plasma Whip)
--Now unclankable
--Removed double hit on shield.

-Down Special (Flip Jump)
--Only able to be used once per air-state. Refreshes on ledge-grab, and tether-reel to the ledge. Does NOT refresh on forced tether-hop due to edgehogging.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nair: Thank you Jesus, we don't have to be practically inside of our opponent for it to hit anymore.

Grab: Can grab low crouch characters now with good timing? Does this mean grabbing them as they are crouching now works?

Throws: Less lag on our uthrow and better angle on dthrow. Our throws aren't garbage anymore!

Paralyzer: Nerfed? Okay.... I'm not sure what "No longer reverse hits" means. It wasn't very useful anyway, now I have even less of a reason to use it.

Side B: Unclankable! But no more double hit on shield.... Worth?

Down B: No longer refreshes when we get hit. Unfortunate nerf, but I think a lot of us saw it coming.

Overall I think the buffs far outweigh the nerfs, and I'm actually really excited to find out what she's capable of now! Downloading the beta now. What do you all think?

 

[cisyphus]

@grab: They said the same thing about Snake's dash grab in 3.5, but I wouldn't be too hopeful.

 

[Shokio]

I like her. The buffs are pretty welcome:

- Bigger Nair
- Better grab
- Better throws
- Plasma whip doesn't clank
- Better Neutralizer

And yeah, I count the Neutral B change as a buff because since it's slower, you can actually apply more pressure on your opponents from running closely behind it at farther distances.

Now, about the elephant in the room; the down b change.

I'm all for it. I agreed with Jason that it shouldn't be refreshing after each hit. THAT BEING SAID THOUGH, I thought they'd give enough compensation for that nerf, which I feel that they didn't. It's a pretty big change, and Zero Suit is practically dead if someone grabs the ledge from her.

Again, I agree that it shouldn't refresh, I just think she needs an equally significant buff to counter-out that change. Her throws are definitely improved, thank you Dev Team, but now with the Down B nerf, I think it officially warrants ZSS having an actual DI mixup like she had in 3.02. It'll help her Marth-Syndrome problem.

Since she's fish in a barrel off-stage, she needs to be more of a threat on-stage to balance it out. Make her punish game stronger. Lemme mind-game someone into DI'ing for Down Throw but I Up-Throw them and get a Bair. For now, I'll deal with what we have though.

Other than that I'm pretty happy.

 

[Lust for Glory]

- Raised the volume of Zero Suit Samus' voice clips on her taunts.

Really nice way to compensate for down b!

All Kappa's aside, throw changes are something I'm happy to see. Hopefully they bring ACTUAL follow ups for us to use, even if it isn't guaranteed for the whole cast, just as long as they're useful in MU's that ZSS struggles in.

Paralyzer is nice. I didnt expect it to make some glorious 3.02 comeback. However, it looks like paralyzer travels a shorter distance? I could be very wrong, but it feels that way to me.

B reverses and wavebounces with side b sound a lot funner now!

 

[Yeroc]

The slower speed does mean it travels less distance because the projectile lifetime is measured in frames and that didn't change.

 

[chrome12345]

Also now you can shoot a non charged blaster while the paralyzer is already out! That means you can negate it if someone reflects it back toward you, or you can shoot the paralyzer higher the air and then use the non charged blaster on the ground to cover multiple heights! Overall i think thats pretty neat! Also it seems like d throw leads to chain grabs on non fast fallers if they don't DI away. And If they DI away, then its still a tech chase i am pretty sure. I need to play some people IRL. Up throw seems to be better, and the change doesn't talk about f throw. The new f throw is weird! Maybe useful?

 

[Dr.Big72]

The new electric sfx make her sound twice as sexy.
Ill miss the plasma whip shield dmg but weve gained a better tool for mixups! i havent been able to try out her throws outside of a vaccum but hopefully they'll prove to be one of the best aspects about zzs this patch. Also, nair has been increased in size but does anyone know if its on par with pre-3.5 days? Id just like to know for profiling purposes.

 

[Arcana~]

Yeah the flip jump no longer resetting after being hit is probably going to lead to her dying more often than some people might realize. Getting force ledge-hopped and being knocked clear to the other side of the stage far enough with no 2nd jump OR renewed flip jump knocks down her survivability by quite a lot. Aside from that though, thank christ for the reworked throws. Seems like now she can follow up her down-throw guaranteed with something regardless of enemy DI assuming their percentage isn't super high. Up throw has less cooldown for her though it still feels a bit like it's tough for her to capitalize on the opponent after the throw faster than they can recover from KB and act.

Love that Sheik, Snake, and G&W are no longer completely un-grabbable for her while they're crouching with her new low dash grab. That was really irritating.

I'm not sure if the decreased speed and range of the fully-charged paralyzer was intended to be a nerf but the way I see it it's a bit of a blessing since now she can to a degree run in on foes behind the shot after it's fired similarly to the way she could in 3.0.

 

[Legit]

Also, nair has been increased in size but does anyone know if its on par with pre-3.5 days? Id just like to know for profiling purposes.

It's not quite as big as pre-3.5 days. But at least it's actually viable now.

Yeah the flip jump no longer resetting after being hit is probably going to lead to her dying more often than some people might realize. Getting force ledge-hopped and being knocked clear to the other side of the stage far enough with no 2nd jump OR renewed flip jump knocks down her survivability by quite a lot. Aside from that though, thank christ for the reworked throws.

Yeah I have noticed that against people that like to force ledge-hop, not having a refreshed side-b is actually a much more serious nerf than I thought it'd be. It's especially bad against characters like Kirby, Marth, or Falcon, where there's literally no hope of living. We have to be A LOT more careful offstage now.

 

[himemiya]

Downb and paralyzer nerfs drastically nerfs my gameplay. Don't see why zss needs the downb nerfs though.

 

[Legit]

Went to a 3.6 local yesterday and placed 2nd behind DP, as usual (**** Falco, ugh). I do have to agree that the slower paralyzer is actually a buff. We can't quite keep up with it like the dash cancel days, but we can run pretty close behind it after release, allowing us to apply better pressure with it.

The down b nerf hurts though. A lot. I went from "Meh, this nerf isn't that bad" to "Wow, this nerf is probably worse than people think" to "Holy ****, this is actually terrible". Died countless times in tournament after being knocked offstage around 50%. Wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have a tether recovery on top of it :\

Also, I feel that overall the side b was nerfed. It was practically unpunishable on shield before, and rarely did anyone try to clank with it. Now it's actually UNsafe against many characters on shield even when spaced perfectly. Sucks because that seemed to be one of her safer moves in her already struggling neutral.

 

[prem]

Went to a 3.6 local yesterday and placed 2nd behind DP, as usual (**** Falco, ugh). I do have to agree that the slower paralyzer is actually a buff. We can't quite keep up with it like the dash cancel days, but we can run pretty close behind it after release, allowing us to apply better pressure with it.

The down b nerf hurts though. A lot. I went from "Meh, this nerf isn't that bad" to "Wow, this nerf is probably worse than people think" to "Holy ****, this is actually terrible". Died countless times in tournament after being knocked offstage around 50%. Wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have a tether recovery on top of it :\

Also, I feel that overall the side b was nerfed. It was practically unpunishable on shield before, and rarely did anyone try to clank with it. Now it's actually UNsafe against many characters on shield even when spaced perfectly. Sucks because that seemed to be one of her safer moves in her already struggling neutral.

Ive been playing Kwan for like 5 hours (the bay area one) with just ZSS cause i want my secondary to not suck and went in with that same mentality that the down b nerf wasnt that bad, but i never got to the point where i thought its actually terrible. Originally i had that bad habit of just down b jumping instantly cause that was fine before but now i got used to saving the jump and its been fine for the most part. THe only real thing i think is you cant be willing to fade back as much because that will actually just kill you; just gotta di that down and hope you can tech the ground or something. Something i was trying to do but could only do rarely was ledge cancel the hop up which i think is the best option if you can make it happen.

and either way that nair buff and those throw buffs make me so happy that I think its fine that she has a not amazing recovery cause she just juggles everyone so well and her dashdance is so fast that ive been making it work in neutral (provided ive mostly played a zelda and falcon who also have pretty awful neutral)

 

[Legit]

Ive been playing Kwan for like 5 hours (the bay area one) with just ZSS cause i want my secondary to not suck and went in with that same mentality that the down b nerf wasnt that bad, but i never got to the point where i thought its actually terrible. Originally i had that bad habit of just down b jumping instantly cause that was fine before but now i got used to saving the jump and its been fine for the most part. THe only real thing i think is you cant be willing to fade back as much because that will actually just kill you; just gotta di that down and hope you can tech the ground or something. Something i was trying to do but could only do rarely was ledge cancel the hop up which i think is the best option if you can make it happen.

and either way that nair buff and those throw buffs make me so happy that I think its fine that she has a not amazing recovery cause she just juggles everyone so well and her dashdance is so fast that ive been making it work in neutral (provided ive mostly played a zelda and falcon who also have pretty awful neutral)

Ah, I didn't get to play Kwan at BOSS 2. You were there too, right?

I dunno, if Falcon forces you to tether though, he can just reverse knee you till you're dead. Her recovery is a lot more gimpable than people realize I think. Once more people catch on, it's not gonna be fun.

 

[Lust for Glory]

Does side b still have dead spots where it wont work against an opponent? It's occured that I've Plasma Whipped a CPU and I slightly overshot, causing the actual good hitbox to land behind them. Usually, i'd expect the whip hitboxes to do something, but the CPU came out perfectly fine.

This has happened twice already in less than an hour

 

[prem]

Ah, I didn't get to play Kwan at BOSS 2. You were there too, right?

I dunno, if Falcon forces you to tether though, he can just reverse knee you till you're dead. Her recovery is a lot more gimpable than people realize I think. Once more people catch on, it's not gonna be fun.

yeah reverse knee isnt even until you are dead its just you're dead LOL. and i know its a lot more gimpable now, but i think her recovery (and tethers in general) arent as awful as people have been saying. like assuming you are dangling below the ledge theres a mixup of how long you take before you reel up, then a mixup between going all the way in, going slightly in, and going back; Kwan at least couldnt reverse knee every time so it wasnt that bad.if someone can i guess its that bad but theres just so many mix ups i feel like you should get out of the situation around half the time.

and yeah i was there but i went 0-2 after getting out of pools. kirby sucks and makes me realize i cant only use falco LOL

 

[Legit]

Does side b still have dead spots where it wont work against an opponent? It's occured that I've Plasma Whipped a CPU and I slightly overshot, causing the actual good hitbox to land behind them. Usually, i'd expect the whip hitboxes to do something, but the CPU came out perfectly fine.

This has happened twice already in less than an hour

It does. It happened to me once or twice.

yeah reverse knee isnt even until you are dead its just you're dead LOL. and i know its a lot more gimpable now, but i think her recovery (and tethers in general) arent as awful as people have been saying. like assuming you are dangling below the ledge theres a mixup of how long you take before you reel up, then a mixup between going all the way in, going slightly in, and going back; Kwan at least couldnt reverse knee every time so it wasnt that bad.if someone can i guess its that bad but theres just so many mix ups i feel like you should get out of the situation around half the time.

and yeah i was there but i went 0-2 after getting out of pools. kirby sucks and makes me realize i cant only use falco LOL

You can literally sit on ledge, wait till ZSS pulls up, wait until she lands on stage, THEN reverse knee her on reaction before she can do anything. There's actually no reads or mixups at all. You can just hang there and wait, since this game let's someone hold ledge for practically ever.

 

[prem]

It does. It happened to me once or twice.



You can literally sit on ledge, wait till ZSS pulls up, wait until she lands on stage, THEN reverse knee her on reaction before she can do anything. There's actually no reads or mixups at all. You can just hang there and wait, since this game let's someone hold ledge for practically ever.

it mixed kwan up and basically everyone else ive ever played with zss but admittedly ive never used her in actual tourney games cause i wasnt confident enough on that yet so maybe its just ppeople trying to style lol.

 

[Dr.Big72]

I finally got some serious matches in @the balcony and realized how much more reliable Nair is now. Especially hitting the reverse hitbox during cross ups. It was just there for me when i needed it in general. Removing old habits/reactions with the down-b change is on the to do list. My patience was tested in the fox match-up when recovering to say the least..
Slightly off topic but I wanted to ask how realiable reeling into the ledge when an opponent is recovering and seeking the sweetspot to get back on? But all in all, i would have a positive review of 3.6 zss. )

 

[prem]

running off and pressing up b and then just reeliing in when they come near the ledge for inviniciblity is great and lets zss keep her invinibility when it matters better than most characters

 

[Legit]

Also did anyone else notice how sometimes when you land the back hit of nair, it actually sends them behind ZSS rather than always in front of her? I think it happens when you hit them with the tip of the back hit

 

[Lust for Glory]

Also did anyone else notice how sometimes when you land the back hit of nair, it actually sends them behind ZSS rather than always in front of her? I think it happens when you hit them with the tip of the back hit

Yeah that used to happen to me in 3.5.

 

[Legit]

Yeah that used to happen to me in 3.5.

Weird, it never happened to me in 3.5 :\ And I played a lot of it, lol

 

[Lust for Glory]

Weird, it never happened to me in 3.5 :\ And I played a lot of it, lol

I usually got that hitbox when a Fox player would make a horible recovery decision/I would get lucky with a ledge hop nair on their side b.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

As far as the down-b nerf for ZSS is concerned, she still has plenty of mixups in order to keep her recovery tricky. But when you're in a force-hop without a down-b, the options are far more limited. I honestly think that tether recoveries are fine since, at low %s, the onstage punish won't always convert to much anyways, especially towards the end of the set when your ability to condition your opponent on your force-hop tendencies can really pay off. It's not that big of a deal to be completely honest. There's a little bit of a hump you have to get over at the beginning when you're trying to figure out which resources you should preserve when recovering and freeze up under the pressure, but her recovery is still plenty strong.

1. Down-b: Has been nerfed, but the mixup from ledge can still happen one time if you save it. Potential followups: down-b back on stage, flipstool off opponent, down-b wall jump, down-b double jump. Amazing still, you just have to save it.
2. Wall jump: Only on walled stages, but you can hug and jump off the wall with wall-jump bairs and uairs to knock people off of the ledge.
3. Double jump: If you don't use your double jump during recovery, you still keep it after the force-hop. It gets pretty good height. Air dodge after or dair them to bounce over.
4. Just force-hop back on stage: An underrated option, but with proper conditioning, you can get away without getting punished.

Compare this with the other tether character, Ivysaur:

1. Throw a razor leaf onto ledge.

We have it good. Don't try to undersell ZSS's recovery just because you have to think before you down-b now. It used to be a top 5 recovery and I think that it still is. It's just that it's possible to get edge guarded now. No biggie.

EDIT:

@ Legit That reverse hitbox has always been there and is incredibly useful for comboing hyper floaties like Mewtwo and Jiggs.

 

[Legit]

@ Legit That reverse hitbox has always been there and is incredibly useful for comboing hyper floaties like Mewtwo and Jiggs.

I was aware the hitbox was there, I'd just never experienced the opponent being sent behind ZSS after getting hit by it. I've only ever seen the back hit send people in the direction ZSS was facing, until 3.6.

Ivysaur's recovery is ass, but that doesn't make ZSS's recovery not ass. It's still very much ass, just less ass. There's also no way her recovery is top 5. It wasn't even top 5 in 3.5.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

I was aware the hitbox was there, I'd just never experienced the opponent being sent behind ZSS after getting hit by it. I've only ever seen the back hit send people in the direction ZSS was facing, until 3.6.

Ivysaur's recovery is ***, but that doesn't make ZSS's recovery not ***. It's still very much ***, just less ***. There's also no way her recovery is top 5. It wasn't even top 5 in 3.5.

I was specifically referring to the reverse hitbox of the backswing, not the backswing itself. Because floaties have so much more airtime and, therefore, more space to DI, juggling them across the stage then hitting them with the reverse swing allows you to keep juggles going back and forth across the platforms (Left -> right, reverse hit, right -> left in one combo). It's very useful and I think that it's a useful tool that extends her already stellar combo game.

As far as recovery goes, we can disagree, I guess. In 3.5 it was very, very difficult for opponents to edge guard me even if they knew the mixups I listed above. 3.6 doesn't feel very different at all if I'm mindful about preserving the down-b. I listed many mixup options that will obviously be countered if your opponent gets a good read, but forcing a read is better than what other characters get-- especially if the read is between, like, 5 options and not a basic 50-50 read. Also, the ability to wall jump and stall out ledge invincibility is huge on certain stages and makes her recovery EXTREMELY good. I think people discount ZSS's recovery preemptively.

 

[Shokio]

She's fine with a wall, dead without one. The flip-stooling option is really cool and smart the first couple of times you use it, but it's easily telegraphed; if you jump first and save the down b until you get closer, they'll obviously know what you're going for. Maybe SoCal just sucks =P, cause Sethlon and Lunchables just choose options that cover any non-wall mixup I attempt. The top players here are very good at edge-guarding her, SoCal just ain't gud.

On another note, did they intentional reduce the slide distance on her dash grab? It's not a big deal or anything, just something I noticed that I don't think was intentional. I like it because often times I would slide passed the person I was trying to grab, but at the same time I don't like it because it's something I gotta adjust to lol.

 

[Foo]

Back from the dead to give my 2 cents on 3.6 zss.

Haven't played the patch, but nair change is almost assuredly awesome, grab change can't hurt, I assume the throw changes are good(?) and I like the paralyzer change. I wish a nerfed DC blaster was back, but this seems like a good middle ground. I'd imagine it's not so boring and stupid now. Down-b not refreshing on being hit is also a good change. Side-b change is actually AMAZING and I love it because I never even thought of it before. Since the move comes out so ****ing slowly, it's, let's say, optimistic to try to use it on an opponent without breaking their shield or baiting them, with baiting them into something being it's primary function. A problem I very very commonly had, was trying to bait them by jumping forward and wavebounce side-bing them to punish them trying to whack you out of the air. The problem was, that would often mean their dash attack/fsmash/ftilt/whatever would clank your side-b, making the move almost useless. Now it functions better in it's niche.

However, the change to the down-b not refreshing on tether hop is... questionable. I would be completely fine with it if they nerfed up-b tether hop lag, but now you just have to bend over and eat your super hard punish if you are forced to down-b. I'm fine with her recovery being nerfed, I just still see it as really lame and this makes it lamer.

@ Legit @ Myst007_teh_newb Yeah, that hitbox has always been there but I don't really like it. I would almost always rather have a good DI non-reverse back nair hit than a flubbed reverse back nair hit. I certainly wouldn't call it "incredibly" useful especially since it has such a small hitbox. I'd rather use full hop reverse weak bair than shorthop reverse nair since they have to be so far behind and above you to connect it and weak bair and nair have the same damage/knockback/landinglag/angle/etc.

 

[G13_Flux]

i think the down b not refreshing is going to be a very MU dependent nerf. It all depends on what kinds of punishes your opponent has for tethers. in general, i think this tradeoff for a better and neutral game (buffed nair and neutral b) and a more rewarding neutral (buffed throws) is going to overall be better for her. If youre facing someone like roy, youre toast at the ledge, no doubt about it. but if the one edge guarding you is, lets say shiek, since shes a very relevant top tiered character, you might not eat as hard of a punish. youll eat a hit for sure, but you can tech fair (since youll be going across the stage). if she dairs to go for a combo, at least again, youll be going across the stage if she tries to bair you back offstage, my guess is you can FF to hit ground before she can get in front of you to hit your refreshing your down b. she could ledge dash to grab if shes got good tech skill, but again, now youre on the ground probably and with her nerfed grabs you might just be thrown back offstage with your down b now, or set up for tech chase with dthrow.

additionally, you can always easily FF back below the ledge and up b again to throw a mixer in there if she goes to make a quick move for you onstage. youre certainly in a not-so-great spot, but theres a lot of room for you to ensure youre landing back onstage at least, or to put yourself in a spot where you can get your down b back, or get hit across the stage to allow yourself to get back on track.

i can see a similar pattern with someone like falcon. knee from the ledge might be more brutal than shiek fair, but overall his edge game isnt a good as shieks, and i see a lot of room for you at least touch ground, or get hit across stage to avoid more follow ups.

regardless, its better than a character with a linear up b, like the space animals, marth, falcon, ganon, shiek, and a number of others. they dont have as much room for counterplay, given their recovery options.

ZSSs recovery is still good. i think shes a lot more than defenseless, although like i said, this is going to be very MU dependent, which is fair.

 

[Juushichi]

there is still reverse fair and dair -> fair for sheik btw

 

[Shokio]

additionally, you can always easily FF back below the ledge and up b again to throw a mixer in there if she goes to make a quick move for you onstage. youre certainly in a not-so-great spot, but theres a lot of room for you to ensure youre landing back onstage at least, or to put yourself in a spot where you can get your down b back, or get hit across the stage to allow yourself to get back on track.

i can see a similar pattern with someone like falcon. knee from the ledge might be more brutal than shiek fair, but overall his edge game isnt a good as shieks, and i see a lot of room for you at least touch ground, or get hit across stage to avoid more follow ups.

regardless, its better than a character with a linear up b, like the space animals, marth, falcon, ganon, shiek, and a number of others. they dont have as much room for counterplay, given their recovery options.

ZSSs recovery is still good. i think shes a lot more than defenseless, although like i said, this is going to be very MU dependent, which is fair.

I promise you, holding back at the ledge doesn't work. It works the first couple of times you pull it out on somebody, but once a competent player sees it, they'll react to it. And they don't even have to hit you with a move....they can just sit on the ledge and then bam, you're back in the same situation. It's not hard lol.

I appreciate how optimistic everyone's being about this and Jason's input can always be encouraging, but sometimes, I truly feel that he's overly-optimistic about ZSS. She's a great char, no doubt, I say she's top 20 for sure. But all these "mixups" you guys are talking about DO NOT work against top players.....at least not mine.

Reeling in onto the stage or holding back to re-tether is SLOW, you can actually REACT to it so it's not even a matter of guessing. Not to mention that a lot of characters have moves that cover both options, such as Toon Link Up-B or Roy's Dair. And speaking of Falcon, they can actually reverse-Knee you so you just get killed of the closer blastzone - no chance to tech.

Let's not kid ourselves, the tether mechanics are still bad and unfair for Special tethers. As I said before, ZSS is fine if she has a wall, but without one, she's dead. I don't know, maybe my scene is just better with dealing with her, because it really sounds like the people ya'll are playing against are highly incompetent when it comes to edge-guarding her.

If there was less lag on the force reel-up or 3 tether attempts instead of 2 it'd be fine IMO.

But the best solution to all of this is to just play an amazing neutral and don't get sent off-stage lol.

 

[G13_Flux]

holding back from a tether animation could be the difference between you getting a reverse hit, and not getting a reverse hit. i just tested it, and it looks likes shiek probably actually does have an easier time edguarding you than thought, but with CF, he has to get far onstage in order to get the reverse hit on you. if you feign going towards the stage, and then hold back, the spacing he needed to connect with it is going to be off. he has to react pretty well and with good spacing to get a reverse it. you at least have some counter play there that allows you to try and land and get your down b back. im not trying to boast for tethers here, but you do have some counterplay options to help get yourself back onstage that other characters would have trouble with. initially, between down b and jump, you should be able to make your opponent at least guess whether or not youll be aiming for the ledge, or the stage. if they take the ledge, you can get yourself onstage most likely. you can instead, if they go for an edge guard, fall down and quickly snap to the ledge. if they go for the ledge every time, ZSS at least has some options to actually get herself back to the stage instead, and with platforms its much better for her in that regards. If your in a position where you have to tether, at least its better than just getting directly ledge hogged. its not great, but at least you have some kind of wiggle room to throw off an opponents timing or spacing just enough so that you dont die so quickly.

additionally, not every character has a shiek fair or CF knee, with a crazy, horizontal reverse hit.

 

[Shokio]

If your in a position where you have to tether, at least its better than just getting directly ledge hogged.

You know what, you right lol. That's a legitimate point. When you think about it in that kind of perspective it sound much more reasonable.

 

[G13_Flux]

well i think its not as bad with ZSS because she at least has a down b > jump that can potentially get her back to the stage at first. others like ivysaur, literally have to do that almost every single time. for the fact that theres only 2 special tethers in the game, i think that it would be reasonable to find a median between 3.02 and 3.5/3.6 so that theres a bit more leniancy, but from a design perspective atm, ZSS at least has that going for her, and its not terrible. not amazing, but not terrible.

 

[420IkeGodxx]

I'm so stoked, now that your character had her brain dead recovery nerfed she'll be even more free for my Ike. Get rekt nerds.

 

[Lust for Glory]

I'm so stoked, now that your character had her brain dead recovery nerfed she'll be even more free for my Ike.

I'm stoked your character lost:
- A possible infinite amount of wall jumps
- Light Armor on Up b

He'll be so free for properly spaced dsmash / fsmash (at the peak) / RAR fair into stagespike / bair into stagespike / divekick into stagespike

One of my fave quotes is...
"Get rekt nerd" - a wise man

 

[420IkeGodxx]

Well I already body Jason Waterfalls on the regular so it's not like I'm afraid of any other zero brain samus' out there.

 

[Lust for Glory]

Oh I'm not denying your capabilities/accomplishments. Ike has very free edgeguards on special tethers (Ivy/ZSS) regardless, whether it be run off Fair, bair, or first hit dsmash if we decide to go onstage after the forced tether jump. Only now, your bair is actually almost always guaranteed to kill while the others either usually always killed (fair) or refreshes our jump/tether chances (dsmash).

 

[Shokio]

Who TF is this lol?

 

[prem]

hIf your in a position where you have to tether, at least its better than just getting directly ledge hogged.

another thing to note about this that i think matters is that in the situation where you are in up b range without needing to jump or not, which happens pretty often up till mid percents, we do essentially get the ledge for free.lets consider falcon who has to up b in a large amount of circumstances regardless of how close he is. the amount of time it takes for him to reach ledge in this situation is sad and just sets him up for a free edge guard. In contrast as long as Zss is in range of her upb (which is super huge) you can just essentially snap on for free cause of how fast it works. and if they are gonna get in range to grab ledge you are most likely within the range of getting back through your 2 jumps and air dodge.

also I feel like zss is super good this patch anyway and deserves to have a bad recovery in the same way falcon does because shes really good at comboing people and i actually haven't had much of a killing problem lately. she deserves to have a not amazing recovery and honestly this recovery is really fast at least so its much better than a lot of other characters who were designed with the philosophy of being good at comboing but having worse survivability