3.6 ZSS Discussion

[Roxas215]

Just coming here to voice my opinions. I mostly play on netplay but im planning on attending quite a few tournaments this summer. Right now im highest ranked zss on netplay(not that that means much lmao)


LOVING the changes so far. Nair and the throw changes especially. Sh nair WORKS again and being able to convert off uthrow now is a breath of fresh air. I also think the slower paralyzer is a BUFF because you can apply pressure after you shoot it. Do they block or do they jump over or it? You read what they gonna do and attack from there.


Obviously the big nerf is the down b refresh. But i think every zss player knew that was coming. I'm not afraid to say i abused the hell out of down b refresh and recovered from stuff i had no business recovering from in 3.5 so im perfectly fine with this nerf. Luckily for me i've been playing knowing this was gonna be removed for the past 2 months now so i've been switching up my recovery. However i will say the characters who had the tools to punish zss hard from the ledge now can gimp her for free now(Marth)


All in all zss is a fun character to play again. I dont feel like im playing a gimped character like i was in 3.5. Also 3.5 did help me learn tech chasing ALOT better(since that was all her throws was good for in 3.5) So using that AND being able to convert off throws now im building up damage alot quicker then i ever did with any other version of PM ZSS.

Can't wait to see the likes of Shokio/Vixen/Jason Waterfalls 3.6 footage.

Downb and paralyzer nerfs drastically nerfs my gameplay. Don't see why zss needs the downb nerfs though.

How does the down b nerf effect your gameplay at all?? Only thing the nerf does is make zss not have the most braindead recovery in the game


Paralyzer while yes you have to switch how you use it. I actually think it's a buff.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Is she any better against Falcon this time around? Really considering using her more often again.

 

[InfinityCollision]

If your in a position where you have to tether, at least its better than just getting directly ledge hogged.

This is only half true.

In situations where you're recovering low, up-b is going to latch, and you can't use shenanigans to get above the ledge, you will always latch. The moment that becomes true, the edgeguard becomes completely flowcharted. Contrast with "normal" up-b recoveries that can potentially create situations where they have the option to recover slightly above the stage and either land onstage or try to bait an early getup and take the ledge. Unless they're stretching their recovery to its absolute limit (in which case yes, they're probably going to lose the stock), the opponent still has to maintain some degree of awareness. Even then, most recoveries have hitboxes that discourage mindlessly holding ledge and eventually you roll or whatever to complete the edgehog. All you have to do against a low ZSS is hold ledge and react to the forced hop. As long as she has the ability to mix up with recovering high she's fine, but the moment she dips below the stage she's in trouble. At that point whether it's better than or equivalent to simply getting edgehogged depends on the matchup, which is a whole other can of worms. For a lot of characters it might as well still be a free stock, it just takes longer.

I just watched Numerics do three or four wall jumps in a row before finally using up-b to stall and mix up his recovery in SG winner's finals vs Darc about an hour ago. For all that trouble he got... a forced hop, same as he would've gotten if he'd up-b'd at any other point in that recovery. Darc held ledge the whole time because that's all he had to do. It's a linear, braindead, poorly designed mechanic and it shouldn't have survived unchanged into 3.6. I still think that tether latch animations should feature weak hitboxes to discourage mindless edgehogs (maybe revert her tether snap timing to frame 21 to compensate), and tether canceling should probably be re-enabled as well. If she has to force hop after that? At least they had to work for that punish. More interesting for both sides in my opinion.

JW: Reminder that your region is relatively bad at punishing tether recoveries, especially for their supposed skill level, despite having two PR'd up-b tethers.

 

[G13_Flux]

This is only half true.

In situations where you're recovering low, up-b is going to latch, and you can't use shenanigans to get above the ledge, you will always latch. The moment that becomes true, the edgeguard becomes completely flowcharted. Contrast with "normal" up-b recoveries that can potentially create situations where they have the option to recover slightly above the stage and either land onstage or try to bait an early getup and take the ledge. Unless they're stretching their recovery to its absolute limit (in which case yes, you're probably going to lose the stock), the opponent still has to maintain some degree of awareness. All you have to do against a low ZSS is hold ledge and react to the forced hop. As long as she has the ability to mix up with recovering high she's fine, but the moment she dips below the stage she's in trouble. At that point whether it's better or worse than simply getting edgehogged depends on the matchup, which is a whole other can of worms. For a lot of characters it might as well still be a free stock, it just takes longer.

I just watched Numerics do three or four wall jumps in a row before finally using up-b to stall and mix up his recovery in SG winner's finals vs Darc about an hour ago. For all that trouble he got... a forced hop, same as he would've gotten if he'd up-b'd at any other point in that recovery. Darc held ledge the whole time because that's all he had to do. It's a linear, braindead, poorly designed mechanic and it shouldn't have survived unchanged into 3.6. I still think that tether latch animations should feature weak hitboxes to discourage mindless edgehogs (maybe revert her tether snap timing to frame 21 to compensate), and tether canceling should probably be re-enabled as well. If she has to force hop after that? At least they had to work for that punish. More interesting for both sides in my opinion.

JW: Reminder that your region is relatively bad at punishing tether recoveries, especially for their supposed skill level, despite having two PR'd up-b tethers.

In my defense, I did say it was very MU dependent. there are many instances of linear/easy to edge guard recoveries that are just as defenseless when attempting to mix up timings/onstage attempts/sweetspot attemtps as ZSSs tether under the ledge. in many case, an opponent doesnt have a good enough punish on you, and therefore, its difficult for them to automatically transition from tether punish > kill, whereas they may have had an easier time just getting a ledge hog or dealing with edge guarding the non-tether up b. another example ill give is m2. his bair is disgusting against most up b recoveries, but against a tether, the vertical nature of the reel in makes it hard for him to time it and connect with it in a mannor that will gimp you properly, and not send you against the wall where you can tech it. he also does not have the best tools to punish a forced ledge hop, since his DJ is slow. he might be able to get a fair, or a uair on you, but thats all hes going to get most likely.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Dunno where you heard that Mewtwo has trouble punishing tethers, but that's nonsense. If a Mewtwo knows you'll be forced to the ledge, oftentimes he can shut your recovery down and avoid the forced hop entirely. Walls offset that somewhat, but you won't always have one to abuse. If that's not a viable option then he's more than adequately equipped to cover fade back; Disable can cover both drift forward and ledge cancel options unless the Mewtwo reacts fairly late (shouldn't happen in high level play, he can initiate the drop and jump as soon as he sees/hears the reel in and react to drift as he goes). There are fancier options like ledgedashing to cover the onstage recovery (his ledgedash is better than you'd think) or going for ledge hop Confusion into things, but there's not much point in mixing them in when he can flowchart into an option that leads to everything else anyway.

So it goes against most of the cast. Things might look okayish right now, but that's because counterplay is still raw and people are just going for whatever aerial hits you without regard for what they're going to do after that. Given a year or two, things would look very different.

 

[Player-3]

captain falcon seems alot worse than he was in 3.5 why did they give him a tether?

 

[G13_Flux]

Dunno where you heard that Mewtwo has trouble punishing tethers, but that's nonsense. If a Mewtwo knows you'll be forced to the ledge, oftentimes he can shut your recovery down and avoid the forced hop entirely. Walls offset that somewhat, but you won't always have one to abuse. If that's not a viable option then he's more than adequately equipped to cover fade back; Disable can cover both drift forward and ledge cancel options unless the Mewtwo reacts fairly late (shouldn't happen in high level play, he can initiate the drop and jump as soon as he sees/hears the reel in and react to drift as he goes). There are fancier options like ledgedashing to cover the onstage recovery (his ledgedash is better than you'd think) or going for ledge hop Confusion into things, but there's not much point in mixing them in when he can flowchart into an option that leads to everything else anyway.

So it goes against most of the cast. Things might look okayish right now, but that's because counterplay is still raw and people are just going for whatever aerial hits you without regard for what they're going to do after that. Given a year or two, things would look very different.

its not that he has trouble getting a hit. nobody has trouble getting a hit on a tether recovery. its the quality of the punish that is important. M2, at best, will put you back offstage (probably up high too) with your down b regained. if youre at a mid - higher percent, maybe hell come close to killing you off the top with fair or uthrow. hes not going to bair you out of your reel in. if he could do that reliably, thatd be insane. the hitboxes arent positioned properly for it though. he could potentially dair you, but he has to be pretty precise for that. a quick reel in will avoid it if he tries to aim low, whereas a delayed reel in will avoid him trying to dair you close to the ledge. additionally, you use your side b and throw in the possibility of a more horizontal/diagonal reel in to avoid vertical gimp attempts. the little micro spacing, counterplay options like that can make it unreliable to get the intial edge guard before they get the hop.

compared to many up bs, i believe m2 is going to have a harder time getting an initial gimp attempt on a tether before they reel in. hell get a hit on you, yes, maybe a couple, but when you move up the flowchart, where does it put you? youre really not going to be in as bad of a place as you could have been if he instead had an easier time getting an initial gimp off (like he would have with a more straightforward up b, with less options for initial counterplay).

as time goes on, im sure we will see tether recoveries getting punished more consistently, like you think as well. but thats also going to weed out which MUs are actually worse off for the tether option, which i dont believe is all of them. I think there will be a number of MUs where having an initially easier time getting yourself put up onstage is going to lead to a lesser quality punish overall. not every character can take a forced hop, and turn that into a stock without having to make a couple additional reads first.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Okay, let me try this again: Mewtwo can consistently punish drift forward/neutral and ledge cancel with his equivalent to a Snake tranquilizer or ZSS dsmash. He can then do whatever he wants. Drift back is a guaranteed bair, which at best forces another reel-in and at worst takes the stock.

Stop thinking small, why would he go for a fair/uthrow if they wouldn't combo or kill? Waste of a free punish. That'd be like punishing a forced hop with something like Roy's ftilt. Would you deliberately hit your opponent away from the ledge in a way that doesn't let you follow up? I sure hope not. You're talking about quality of hits and then falling into the exact mistake I mentioned at the end of my last post.

Bair and dair are the least of your concerns if Mewtwo knows you'll have to tether near max length. He can just camp you out and drag you down with a low hover nair; even if you SDI up and out you'll be too low for a second up-b attempt if he's positioned/moving properly. I rarely do this against ZSS, but only because she can potentially go for a suicide kill instead of jumping into the nair. Ivy's pretty much boned. Walls weaken that option, but it's still potentially viable for tacking on free damage and possibly securing a bair hit.

 

[G13_Flux]

look, I already explained how I agreed that m2 bassically gets a free punish. Im not trying do discuss whether or not he gets a free fair or whatever else. HE DOES. i dont believe youre seeing my perspective though. Its about kill consistency and the quality of punishes/gimps on ZSS as compared to an average up b recovery. Lets say you ledge hop as ZSS. whats next? well, lets take this step by step.

scenario 1: M2 throws out a fair.
if youre at a lower percent, he gets a follow up, be it a uair, another fair, or whatever. This is typical, low percent combo territory, on 95 % of the cast. if youre somewhere in the 60-100% margin, he can still get a combo by using teleport. once youre past that window, a fair punish isnt going to lead to much besides positonal advantage. Once you hit 120%, then it can kill directly from ground level.

scenario 2: M2 throws out a dair
this will be his best punish. at final destination, connecting with dair at about 105% ish will combo into a fair to kill, with good DI.

scenario 3: M2 throws out a nair.
Ok youre getting naired. m2 will get some positional advantage from whatever way you end up getting hit (likely towards the middle of the stage, with some SDI), or maybe even a tech chase.

scenario 4: M2 ledge dashes > some kind of ground attack
his ledge dash is actionable on frame 25 if performed frame perfect, which certainly gives him room to make a punish. his best punishes on the ground are probably grab and dtilt. maybe youll eat a combo, or if youre at 120ish onwards youll get uthrowed. you could get bthrowed, but youll just be up in a high position with your down b regained (with good DI, its unlikely to kill until later percents), which could be much worse. though he does have 2 relatively powerful smash attacks, he wont have time to space them such that they can kill you back the way you came from. he can just squeeze off a dsmash with 5 frames of leniancy. that means he has to make a very good read on the exact timing of your jump (not terribly easy, given that you can delay your reel in), and then make a frame perfect ledge dash. even if done, it will start killing at around 110% with good DI, so he might as well have just dair > faired you.

the earliest m2 can outright kill you with minimal reads/effort required is about 105%. lets compare this to getting edge guarded at 50% with a typical predictable trajectory up b. now obviously, ZSS could get gimped at 50% just as well, but I believe it to be much harder for M2 to perform that on her. her down b and double jump should be enough to get her back close enough to the stage as to where the opponent will have to choose between extending out for an edge guard, or taking the ledge. if they take the ledge, youll have enough distance in your recovery options to get you back without having to thether. by taking the ledge, they just let you back and possibly forfeited a quality gimp attempt for a lesser punish, or no punish at all. if they go for the edge guard, you have good tools to get yourself to the ledge very quickly. between up b and side b, you have a lot of flexibility with the angles that you snap to the ledge with. coupled with the fact that you can delay the reel in, or instantly reel in, it makes it difficult for M2 to predict when and where he needs to cover space (even if its with nair and bair). not impossible, and not terribly difficult, but it wont be consistent. additionally, your dive kick can aid you in quickly getting beneath an opponent that comes out and commits to an edge guard.



in summary:
-ZSS has an easier time getting herself TO THE LEDGE than many up b recoveries. whereas many up b recoveries are very susceptible to early gimps, ZSS is less so given her good burst mobility, stall capability on reel in, and flexible angles with quick ledge snapping possibility. this means that a quality ledge > onstage punish game is required to get more consistent, optimal punishes. depending on the MU, this may not be as good as being able to perform more reliable, offstage gimps on most up b recoveries.

I believe the M2 MU to be one where he can more easily and reliably gimp most up b recoveries as opposed to ZSSs tether, and the quality of his onstage punishes on her doesnt outweigh this. doing "whatever he wants" doesnt get you killed outright at early percents, and if youre put offstage, you at least get a down b back. This means shes less at risk of early wtf kills, with the trade off of being killed more consistently at specific percents. Sometimes, I believe this can work very much in her favor.

 

[InfinityCollision]

The point is that your perspective on his punish game is woefully ignorant despite the fact that I've already spelled out how he can flowchart into superior punish options. Twice. It's not worth breaking down your analysis because the underlying assumptions are flawed.

Seriously, ledgedashing? I specifically called that out as a flashy but suboptimal option two posts ago. You're still thinking in terms of aerials but the earliest I'd use an aerial to punish forward drift, if I use an aerial, is after I've touched the ground.

Stop thinking about it in terms of Mewtwo coming off the ledge. He's standing next to his opponent with ~+10 frame advantage at minimum after landing Disable; realistically it starts closer to 15-20 frames and increases from there if the opponent sucks at mashing. It's a free conversion, he doesn't have to rush into suboptimal options. While I'd say your understanding of his combo tree is also limited (in fairness, that's hardly unique to you), that should at least give you a better perspective on his options and what he can bring to bear against a forced ledge hop.

Which brings us back to what I said before:

So it goes against most of the cast. Things might look okayish right now, but that's because counterplay is still raw and people are just going for whatever aerial hits you without regard for what they're going to do after that. Given a year or two, things would look very different.

You're thinking in the same suboptimal terms because that's the counterplay your experiences and understanding lead you to expect. The takeaway here should not simply be that Mewtwo has better options than you think, but that this is probably true for most, if not all of the cast. I just happen to know Mewtwo's options better than most characters and you brought him up.

One of the big reasons almost all of our local tether mains/secondaries switched characters after 3.5 is because our better players get those meaty punishes consistently, and the rest of the gang is learning to follow in those footsteps. I don't much enjoy either side of it, but you can bet that I'd rather be the one punishing than the one getting punished here.

 

[G13_Flux]

The point is that your perspective on his punish game is woefully ignorant despite the fact that I've already spelled out how he can flowchart into superior punish options. Twice. It's not worth breaking down your analysis because the underlying assumptions are flawed.

Seriously, ledgedashing? I specifically called that out as a flashy but suboptimal option two posts ago. You're still thinking in terms of aerials but the earliest I'd use an aerial to punish forward drift, if I use an aerial, is after I've touched the ground.

Stop thinking about it in terms of Mewtwo coming off the ledge. He's standing next to his opponent with ~+10 frame advantage at minimum after landing Disable; realistically it starts closer to 15-20 frames and increases from there if the opponent sucks at mashing. It's a free conversion, he doesn't have to rush into suboptimal options. While I'd say your understanding of his combo tree is also limited (in fairness, that's hardly unique to you), that should at least give you a better perspective on his options and what he can bring to bear against a forced ledge hop.

Which brings us back to what I said before:



You're thinking in the same suboptimal terms because that's the counterplay your experiences and understanding lead you to expect. The takeaway here should not simply be that Mewtwo has better options than you think, but that this is probably true for most, if not all of the cast. I just happen to know Mewtwo's options better than most.

One of the big reasons almost all of our local tether mains/secondaries switched characters after 3.5 is because our better players get those meaty punishes consistently, and the rest of the gang is learning to follow in those footsteps. I don't much enjoy either side of it, but you can bet that I'd rather be the one punishing than the one getting punished here.

with all due respect, ive brought up some very fair points about tether recoveries (or at least ZSSs) that I think should be seriously considered. Ive detailed specific situations, citing frame data and percentages that suggest the power, quality, and consistency of kill options in a specific MU. If you want to ignore those, fine. Im all for having my views and arguments challenged, but you have just been terrible to have a conversation with. All youre doing is trying telling me that Im thinking suboptimally, and talking to me like a child. Youre naming out obscure flowcharted punish options that dont really have any good data tied to them, and it doesnt exactly give any light to how effective the punish options are in the scope of taking a stock. having even +70 frames of advantage doesnt mean anything unless you can devise a punish that is meaningful.

You seem to think im trying to tell you that tether recoveries are godlike, when thats not what Im doing. Im arguing for a very fair and modest middle ground at the moment. I believe that there are certain MUs where ZSSs tether is an advantage. Ive done my best to give data to support my argument, as well as address as many points that you have brought up as I can (its tough to read and address every single detail in a post, as you should know). I have also tried to answer in a very neutral, non-aggressive tone. You have done the opposite. Ignored most of my details and claims, and passed them off with passive-aggressive remarks that, frankly, havent lead to much constructive conversation at all. With this, im very much done with this conversation for the moment.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I basically handed you my answer on a silver platter multiple times. You can punish drift forward and attempted ledge cancel with Disable and B-reverse Disable on reaction, giving Mewtwo non-trivial frame advantage in a standing position. Passing that off as "obscure" essentially handwaves the fact that it's a better opening option than anything you proposed precisely because it allows all of your options to come into play from the same position and more. As such it cannot be worse than any of your options and must in fact surpass all of them individually. The fact that a practical and superior option is "obscure" does not lessen its value, it just means that it hasn't entered general use yet.

If I come off as irritated, it's because I don't understand why I must repeat so many things so many times. Everything is on a single page, contained within a handful of posts. If there's something you want clarified then by all means ask, but your basic counterargument was "this flowchart goes nowhere" and you never really got past that point despite the fact that such an argument essentially implies that Mewtwo's entire combo tree is similarly limited. In fact, you still have not moved past that point if you think 15-20 frames is not sufficient time for Mewtwo to initiate a meaningful punish while standing right next to an inactive character. Even if the best I can do is put you back offstage, as long as I can continue to do that then nothing of note changes and you eventually die. If not, I've probably done enough to ensure that the next conversion will do the job instead. If putting ZSS offstage gives her a chance to recover high, I'd argue the ensuing situation is less a testament to the quality of her tether than the options she brings to bear outside it (more on that below).

Maybe it's a guaranteed stock, maybe it's not, but she generally doesn't get off any better than any other onstage recovery in this instance (because any other onstage recovery is either subject to an equivalent punish option or has sufficiently superior frame data to force a lesser punish/escape entirely) and potentially comes out worse overall from an equivalent starting position simply because she does not have a viable way to drift to an unguarded ledge in this situation (because the ledge should not go unguarded after a forced hop). All roads out of forced tether lead to a punish here, whereas a traditional up-b potentially has a small but real shot at safety. She does hold a slightly better position than most from maximum recovery distance, but not because of tether mechanics. She holds that position because 1) most characters can't challenge a recovery that far from ledge and 2) those that can don't necessarily want to against ZSS because she can potentially suicide kill them for trying. If these two properties were removed (ex if we were instead talking about 3.5 Olimar's recovery sans bugs), she'd have basically nothing to fall back on and would (should) die before she ever reached the ledge when forced to recover from maximum distance.

I made my stance on her recovery as a whole clear from the start:

As long as she has the ability to mix up with recovering high she's fine, but the moment she dips below the stage she's in trouble. At that point whether it's better than or equivalent to simply getting edgehogged depends on the matchup, which is a whole other can of worms. For a lot of characters it might as well still be a free stock, it just takes longer.

Discussing what she can do in the context of recovering high or whatever is thus nigh irrelevant because it's an agreed-upon point that has little bearing on the actual point of disagreement, which is the quality of punishes the cast as a whole can bring to bear against forced hops as demonstrated through one character's poorly understood punish options. As such, I saw and continue to see no need to respond to those points or re-introduce them to the present discussion. If somebody else wants to argue that with you that's their prerogative, but I have no reason to drift into an argument on that subject.

Another point I haven't brought up that's worth noting: since the window prior to forced reel-in is relatively small (90 frames), it's not too difficult to time a getup option independent of the need to react to the forced hop if one holds ledge long enough. <100 getup is actionable somewhere around frame 33~35 across the cast if memory serves. I'd expect consistent gains in frame advantage (possibly also position) since you're no longer losing frames to reaction time; against a forced reel-in the gains are potentially quite substantial with good timing.

 

[G13_Flux]

look, I already explained how I agreed that m2 bassically gets a free punish. Im not trying do discuss whether or not he gets a free fair or whatever else. HE DOES. i dont believe youre seeing my perspective though. Its about kill consistency and the quality of punishes/gimps on ZSS as compared to an average up b recovery. Lets say you ledge hop as ZSS. whats next? well, lets take this step by step.

I basically handed you my answer on a silver platter multiple times. You can punish drift forward and attempted ledge cancel with Disable and B-reverse Disable on reaction, giving Mewtwo non-trivial frame advantage in a standing position. Passing that off as "obscure" essentially handwaves the fact that it's a better opening option than anything you proposed precisely because it allows all of your options to come into play from the same position and more. As such it cannot be worse than any of your options and must in fact surpass all of them individually. The fact that a practical and superior option is "obscure" does not lessen its value, it just means that it hasn't entered general use yet.

If I come off as irritated, it's because I don't understand why I must repeat so many things so many times. Everything is on a single page, contained within a handful of posts. If there's something you want clarified then by all means ask, but your basic counterargument was "this flowchart goes nowhere" and you never really got past that point despite the fact that such an argument essentially implies that Mewtwo's entire combo tree is similarly limited. In fact, you still have not moved past that point if you think 15-20 frames is not sufficient time for Mewtwo to initiate a meaningful punish while standing right next to an inactive character. Even if the best I can do is put you back offstage, as long as I can continue to do that then nothing of note changes and you eventually die. If not, I've probably done enough to ensure that the next conversion will do the job instead. If putting ZSS offstage gives her a chance to recover high, I'd argue the ensuing situation is less a testament to the quality of her tether than the options she brings to bear outside it (more on that below).

Maybe it's a guaranteed stock, maybe it's not, but she generally doesn't get off any better than any other onstage recovery in this instance (because any other onstage recovery is either subject to an equivalent punish option or has sufficiently superior frame data to force a lesser punish/escape entirely) and potentially comes out worse overall from an equivalent starting position simply because she does not have a viable way to drift to an unguarded ledge in this situation (because the ledge should not go unguarded after a forced hop). All roads out of forced tether lead to a punish here, whereas a traditional up-b potentially has a small but real shot at safety. She does hold a slightly better position than most from maximum recovery distance, but not because of tether mechanics. She holds that position because 1) most characters can't challenge a recovery that far from ledge and 2) those that can don't necessarily want to against ZSS because she can potentially suicide kill them for trying. If these two properties were removed (ex if we were instead talking about 3.5 Olimar's recovery sans bugs), she'd have basically nothing to fall back on and would (should) die before she ever reached the ledge when forced to recover from maximum distance.

I made my stance on her recovery as a whole clear from the start:



Discussing what she can do in the context of recovering high or whatever is thus nigh irrelevant because it's an agreed-upon point that has little bearing on the actual point of disagreement, which is the quality of punishes the cast as a whole can bring to bear against forced hops as demonstrated through one character's poorly understood punish options. As such, I saw and continue to see no need to respond to those points or re-introduce them to the present discussion. If somebody else wants to argue that with you that's their prerogative, but I have no reason to drift into an argument on that subject.

Another point I haven't brought up that's worth noting: since the window prior to forced reel-in is relatively small (90 frames), it's not too difficult to time a getup option independent of the need to react to the forced hop if one holds ledge long enough. <100 getup is actionable somewhere around frame 33~35 across the cast if memory serves. I'd expect consistent gains in frame advantage (possibly also position) since you're no longer losing frames to reaction time; against a forced reel-in the gains are potentially quite substantial with good timing.

from my perspective, you have been repeating your own arguments, but ive already acknowleged them. like, Ive agreed that m2 gets a free disable. he gets a free fsmash off a ledge dash. he gets a free dsmash off a ledge dash. he gets to sit on the beach and have a margarita, and then come back and still be able to punish you. this ive acknowleged plenty, and its what you keep trying to argue to me. What Im trying to convey, is that ANY punish that m2 can dish out on you, isnt going to kill you until about 105%. NOW, lets compare this to the fact that he can MORE EASILY gimp traditional up b recoveries. these gimps, can easily kill at very low percents. M2 has a HARDER time gimping ZSS at those low percents. since he has a harder time gimping her outright, he MUST RELY on whatever punish he can dish out on the tether hop. yes, he gets free anything, but what is the BEST thing he can get? if youre at 90%, hes not going to be able to kill you without several good reads.

average up b recovery: gets gimped very easily at lower percents by m2.

ZSS tether recovery: doesnt get gimped easy, but will eat a guarenteed punish that CANT KILL until approximately 105% on final desitination.

Whatever M2s punish is on you, its going to require more effort to kill you with it than it would have taken to edge guard many others before they hit the ledge. now, if the up b recovery (be it shiek, CF, spacies, ness, ganon, marth, roy, lucario, or whoever else) can get past the edge guard attempt to get onstage, yes, M2 wont have as much advantage to get a good punish off. BUT, they have to GET TO THE STAGE first. their initial recovery options arent as good as ZSSs. some of them (marth and roy for instance) might have a move that stalls, but even with that, their recovery lines and trajectories are mostly obvious. a character such as M2 punishes those recoveries very hard. with ZSS, her initial recovery is better. between down b, jump, and her various tether angles (that all snap you to the ledge very quickly), shell avoid M2s gimp much easier, and thus, is not as prone to those quick low percent gimps. this is where her tether is an advantage in this case. She eats a punish from the tether hop that kills at a consistent percent, but avoids low percent gimps better.

i should note that any punish M2 can get on you that sends you offstage, will allot you time to hit the ground and get your down b back, which is relevant to earlier conversations on her recovery nerf this patch.

after this, if you are still frustrated with my post, then lets end this. I have read our posts over several times, and can see where confusion could have arose, but you had no need to repeat yourself, as I had already made it clear that I understood certain points you were trying to make. I am confident this post should make clear the main points I am trying to argue, as well as indicate the validity and relevance of the points you were trying to make. If you still dont understand, and are going to continue to say you dont want to repeat yourself (when you had no need of it in the first place), or tell me Im not thinking correctly, or try to assume anything about my experiences as a player, then stop.

I have made my view as clear as I believe I can up to this point, in addition to making it clear that Ive acknowledged and agreed with the points you claim to not want to repeat.

 

[InfinityCollision]

In retrospect I should've just shifted away from the Mewtwo example; it's not strictly necessary to the point being made and I'm not here to hold a clinic on his punish game. It's become a distraction rather than a viable example. Let's try something more direct.

average up b recovery: gets gimped very easily at lower percents by m2.

ZSS tether recovery: doesnt get gimped easy, but will eat a guarenteed punish that CANT KILL until approximately 105% on final desitination.

...this is where her tether is an advantage in this case.

The crux of this is that the bolded is wrong. Her recovery does not succeed because of tether mechanics, but in spite of them.

Put differently: let's imagine that the next patch replaces her tether with a "traditional" recovery that retains its current range, maneuverability, and (roughly, but I'm not going to bother "balancing" theoretical exercises) IASA, peaks and begins ledge grab window at frame 25, forces 30 frames landing lag during its animation, and replaces the current hitboxes with a series of body-centered hitboxes with equivalent properties.

Overall, this is a significant upgrade over her current upb from a recovery standpoint. In fact, it's pretty close to what they did for Olimar's recovery. The biggest drawback while recovering is arguably that the hitboxes are no longer significantly disjointed, which is almost a nonfactor in her current recovery for reasons previously stated. As such the mere fact that the opponent might have to interact with hitboxes during your up-b is itself a small buff, and even if those hitboxes were removed or somehow altered to only be relevant to offensive applications the new up-b would still arguably be a buff.

Note that I am not actually advocating for a new up-b, merely illustrating how it would affect her recovery.

 

[G13_Flux]

The mewtwo example is one where I believe it shows that there is some merit to zss's tether over traditional recoveries. You may believe otherwise, that's fine. Regardless, that is why I brought up the match up as a point of focus.

In the scope of the entire cast, I won't necessarily argue that a traditional up b wouldn't be a buff. It probably would be. But if that was changed, and nothing else, I would argue that certain MUs (like the m2 mu, and I could reason for a couple more as well) would get a bit worse by nature of getting initially gimped easier. Other match ups like Roy and fox (that, yes, are potentially more relevant), would get slightly better at least in terms of recovering. Theres still a trade off, even if it's skewered to one side.

Again, I'm just trying to make the point that there are MUs where having a tether can be a benefit. Do you really believe that there is absolutely no scenario where having a tether can be good?

 

[InfinityCollision]

Again, the tether itself isn't what makes her gimp resistant. Cut both recoveries in half and remove the spike hitbox. Suddenly she's gimp fodder every time she's forced to tether, and in fact she's more vulnerable with the tether recovery because its path is more predictable (always converges on the space directly underneath the ledge). Suddenly every dropzone edgeguard of note takes stocks for free, and while the "traditional" variant isn't much better off against them it at least still has options. Characters that struggle to edgeguard can still punish the tether, whereas they'll likely have a more difficult time against the traditional variant.

Tether mechanics are only inherently beneficial if three criteria are met simultaneously:

1) You're recovering in a manner that would incur a guaranteed edgehog against a traditional recovery.
2) The ensuing punish on forced hop does not guarantee loss of a stock.
3) The more general, non-tether specific properties of your recovery are such that your opponent cannot perform a guaranteed edgeguard in some other manner.

You're essentially lumping in ZSS' strengths in the third category as something integral to tether mechanics. They're not, they're an independent property of her recovery. Hence the Olimar example a couple posts back.

 

[G13_Flux]

No, points 1-3 were all very central to my claims. I wasnt lumping them into your 3rd point, though I did discuss the additional properties of her overall recovery and how they work in conjunction with the tether. I made those points pretty apparent.

The points you listed are exactly it though. In some MUs, they sway towards tethers having the advantage. Tethers indeed can be less resistant to gimps because of the speed at which they snap the ledge, and at least in zss case, the ability to range from purely horizontal to purely vertical tethering. They're more slippery than the slower, more predictable trajectory of the traditional recoveries. For characters that have lower duration moves, it can be a challenge to hit the tethering character before they can snap the ledge. Again, this is because of the speed of the reel in and the ability to delay. Human reaction speed will not allow you to get those kind of gimps all the time. Again, this is MU dependent, as certain characters do have moves that are very good at covering multiple angles of approach from a good distance of the ledge. Many characters though have only moves that require a bit more precision, and even though the tether will always converge near the ledge, they're not going to be able to get the initial gimp without a good read. This is where you're second point can become a large factor. It may or may not be worth it for some to simply hold the ledge.

 

[AZ_Spellbound]

I approve her changes for the most part.

 

[Foo]

Alright, from playing a tab bit with the new zss changes, she felt awesome. The throw changes feel incredible and even the sublte nair change and neutral b changes are sweet. I'll bend over and take free recovery punishes all day for that trade, especially since you can save down-b with good DI or at mid-low %s. I also kinda found myself using charge blaster a bit to control space and it actually was working.

What I am most worried about is her fast faller machups, but from what I have watched, the new upthrow does WONDERS for it. While fox seems to be able to DI out of guaranteed follow ups most of the time, it is difficult to DI upthrow on reaction similarly to puff and with he much better angle and decreased lag, even if they DI away you get so much more potential out of the tech chases. I'm also wondering if upthrow to pivot or raw fsmash works on good DI at any %s. Watching @ Shokio put in some excelent work with zss really gives me faith for the character. Her new throw just make her punish game so much more reliable and trading recovery for it is perfect, especially since the punish game is improved most in her weak matchups. Of course, I'd have to actually get some first hand competitive experience going to actually make an analysis, but it LOOKS great and FEELS great (against scrubs)

 

[Shokio]

Honestly, I think that ZSS is perfect. I truly hope that like with Diddy, the Dev Team realizes that they have hit the sweetspot with this character and they plan on making no future changes to her; no buffs, no nerfs. Her strengths and weaknesses are perfectly balanced right now; this character is complete in my eyes.

I did say some stuff about the tether mechanics but that's not actually a ZSS specific thing and I've learned to just improve my neutral game so I don't get sent off-stage as often. (This change was mostly due to Olimar's highly punishable Up-B making me afraid to get off-stage with any character lol)

The ONLY remaining thing I'd say needs to be tweaked with her, is her dash grab. They almost completely took out the slide momentum she had when performing it in 3.5, and the grab itself is super slow (frame 12). Both of these things work against her tech chase-ability, which is now a big part of the character since down throw became a tech chase throw in 3.5.

I think having the slide distance back with the same frame data would be fine, or having the current slide distance with a faster grab would be fine.

But even if it doesn't get tweaked, it's not too big of a deal. It's just a small annoyance I noticed since 3.6 released, I thought my tech chase game got worse but it was actually just the change made to her dash grab lol. Other than that I love this character and I think she's perfect.

 

[prem]

yeah I honestly think the character is fine as is. her recovery is amazing low to mid percents and easily punished at high percents which i say is balanced, and her neutral and punish games are fine as is.


as for the tech chasing and the dash grab I don't think its too big of a deal because you should realistically just be JC grabbing all the time and accounting for that anyway

 

[Shokio]

Of course that's always an option, but you shouldn't HAVE to do that just to get competent regrabs on your tech chase reads. But like I said, if the shortened distance and slow frame data are intentional and never get changed, it's no biggie. Doesn't make or break her or anything like that.

 

[G13_Flux]

I think they want her dash grab to be like that. They made it so that the outer grab box can grab shorter characters, so if you're going to want to grab them, you have to commit to it. That seems to be the dynamic they implemented.

I usually always use JC grab regardless. Some characters, like DDD or Zelda for example, get far more range out of their dash grabs, whereas others, like roy, marth, fox, and cf, get more range out of the JC variant. I honestly haven't tested her dash grab her so I don't know where it falls, though it seems the current version probably won't live up to the JC version.

 

[Stryker]

Posting because if everyone doesn't know about this, they should. (Though I'm sure most do) We no longer need to crawl backwards onto ledges, hoorah.

Simply Dash attack, and tilt your control stick in the opposite direction, and voila, ZSS is hanging on ledge. It's a pretty quick way to get down to ledge.
I dunno if this was in previous releases. It's probably in 3.5, and maybe 3.0, but she is not the only character that can do it, but not all characters can. I'm not sure why though.

Regardless, here's some tech that I'm sure already existed, and is a different option to get to ledge.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Undocumented change (there are quite a few of these in 3.6...): dsmash damage was reverted to 11%.

Didn't recall seeing it mentioned, thought you guys would like to know.

 

[Shokio]

Oro?! told me on FB that day of the launch that they reverted DSmash back to 3.02's duration. Don't know if 3.02's did 11% (I think it did), but it was definitely an undocumented change.

 

[ted dorosheff]

3.6 full is out now. there was a change to her up-special (i think). From site:
-Up Special (Plasma Whip)
--launching (hand) hitbox:
--0x/0x hitlag/SDI ->1x/1x
--angle: 95 -> 90

Does this mean that plasma whip will now have more hitlag and throw the opponent slightly behind you if initiated while your opponent is basically right on your hurtbox (i cant think of any other way you would actually connect with your hand hitbox, given the near vertical angle and trajectory of this move when it comes out).

 

[Arcana~]

Those fellas sure have fun with her up smash each update. Can't seem to decide whether it should have more hitboxes, less hitboxes, where the hitboxes actually appear within the animation. It still works all the same for me.

As for that upB change the angle from 95 to 90 I'm guessing that's for the popup caused from the hand hitbox at the very start of the move. A perfectly straight upward KB angle better ensures the popped up foe makes contact with the upper part of the whip that drags the foe back downward, and I'm guessing the 0x/0x hitlag/SDI ->1x/1x just means foes can partially SDI after the popup.

 

[$heen]

By the way, attacks that have 0 hitlag also have no DI, SDI, or ASDI, regardless of other modifiers. They are a huge violation of smash mechanics and are being removed cast wide.

 

[Shokio]

The changes are fine. I don't see the changes made to Up Smash necessary though. But the move was always mediocre anyway so meh.

 

[Legit]

So do the usmash changes mean the hand hitboxes lead into the whip hitboxes easier, but the move is more easily SDI'd and has smaller hitboxes now? The move was already unreliable and nearly useless lol. I hope it's not as bad as it sounds. I'm gonna do some testing

 

[Shokio]

It links better when someone is hit with the hitboxes around her hand, yes, but it's easier to SDI out of. To be fair, SDI multipliers should always be x1, so that's actually a fix, but this does mean that people will be able to fall out of it even more-so than before.

Honestly, I would just love a single-hit UpSmash that can kill vertically seeing as how ZSS has almost 0 vertical kill power. Uair works sometimes but ONLY if you hit them with the right angle/frame of it and they have to be like 150%+ unless they're a floaty.

 

[InfinityCollision]

The larger final hitbox on usmash helps somewhat, but it's still really easy to get out. The reasons are slightly different but the result is the same: usmash sucks.

Up-b hitlag/sdi change means most of the cast can CC to get out at any percent, and ASDI down often simply forces knockdown. It'll also result in failing to connect with the spike hitbox at very low percents. This is actually a pretty big deal. Not saying the change was a bad decision, but it's worth noting.

Fsmash nerf might affect followups off the rear hitboxes, I can't be bothered to check.

 

[Foo]

It links better when someone is hit with the hitboxes around her hand, yes, but it's easier to SDI out of. To be fair, SDI multipliers should always be x1, so that's actually a fix, but this does mean that people will be able to fall out of it even more-so than before.

Honestly, I would just love a single-hit UpSmash that can kill vertically seeing as how ZSS has almost 0 vertical kill power. Uair works sometimes but ONLY if you hit them with the right angle/frame of it and they have to be like 150%+ unless they're a floaty.

I'd greatly prefer a one hit upsmash that combod fast fallers. Not killing off the top has always been one of her weaknesses and it should stay that way imo (kinda like how she SHOULD have bad oos game)

 

[Stryker]

I'd greatly prefer a one hit upsmash that combod fast fallers. Not killing off the top has always been one of her weaknesses and it should stay that way imo (kinda like how she SHOULD have bad oos game)

you say should, does that mean you feel like she doesn't?

I don't feel like her OOS game isnt too bad. I mean, Upsmash or Tether out of shields aren't the most useful unless someone is trying to cross you up, but dair isn't the worst mixup and bair is just as decent as it's always been.
Though, Now that I think about it, I can't think of a character with worse options, so maybe even though hers aren't terrible, she just has the least out of the cast?

 

[Shokio]

I'd greatly prefer a one hit upsmash that combod fast fallers. Not killing off the top has always been one of her weaknesses and it should stay that way imo (kinda like how she SHOULD have bad oos game)

The difference between those 2 things is though, is that I don't think her having no vertical kill power was an intentional design choice. Up air killed vertically pretty well in Brawl, but they took that away in PM (for the most part). I agree she should stay weak in the OoS game, but I don't think the lack of vertical kill power was a conscious choice on the Dev Team's part at all.

 

[Foo]

The difference between those 2 things is though, is that I don't think her having no vertical kill power was an intentional design choice. Up air killed vertically pretty well in Brawl, but they took that away in PM (for the most part). I agree she should stay weak in the OoS game, but I don't think the lack of vertical kill power was a conscious choice on the Dev Team's part at all.

And wavedashing wasn't an intentional addition to melee. Just because the dev team may or may not of intended to keep her from killing off the top doesn't mean she should be able to kill off the top. Zss not killing off the top is a weakness and I think it's a good weakness to have. This is one of those instances where we would be needlessly normalizing the cast. Besides, killing off the top is strongest against floaties and heavies that aren't fast fallers which zss already does very well against. Why does she need vertical kill power? It'd make her stronger, but imo, it just takes away from her character

you say should, does that mean you feel like she doesn't?

I don't feel like her OOS game isnt too bad. I mean, Upsmash or Tether out of shields aren't the most useful unless someone is trying to cross you up, but dair isn't the worst mixup and bair is just as decent as it's always been.
Though, Now that I think about it, I can't think of a character with worse options, so maybe even though hers aren't terrible, she just has the least out of the cast?

She just doesn't have any "offensive" oos options. She has a meh grab, slow aerials and a really bad upsmash and thin up-b. Her wavedash oos is good but that's about it. It doesn't cripple her or anything, it just makes shielding a worse options for her, which is good, because you are supposed to be focusing on dodging and countering attacks anyway, so it punishes you for having to shield.

 

[Shokio]

And wavedashing wasn't an intentional addition to melee. Just because the dev team may or may not of intended to keep her from killing off the top doesn't mean she should be able to kill off the top. Zss not killing off the top is a weakness and I think it's a good weakness to have. This is one of those instances where we would be needlessly normalizing the cast. Besides, killing off the top is strongest against floaties and heavies that aren't fast fallers which zss already does very well against. Why does she need vertical kill power? It'd make her stronger, but imo, it just takes away from her character



She just doesn't have any "offensive" oos options. She has a meh grab, slow aerials and a really bad upsmash and thin up-b. Her wavedash oos is good but that's about it. It doesn't cripple her or anything, it just makes shielding a worse options for her, which is good, because you are supposed to be focusing on dodging and countering attacks anyway, so it punishes you for having to shield.

Honestly she doesn't need it. The same way Bowser didn't need a Side-B spike and Ganon didn't need a float, yet they have it anyway. Plenty of times in this game, characters have received things they don't need, but the changes end up being really cool and add to the stylishness of the character. It's changes like these that make the characters more fun to play. There is no harm of giving a character something (as proven by my examples) they don't necessarily need, unless it's something blatantly silly like giving Falco 3 jumps, or giving a random character a shine. Giving ZSS an UpSmash (that would come out on frame 20, just to keep it in-line with her theme of slow-but-effective Smashes) would be a completely tame a normal-feeling change. She would not be hopping any tier spots. Or, it could be a single-hit combo Up-Smash rather than the kill one. It doesn't have to be exactly what I said, it was just a suggestion. I'm open to any change that would mean Up-Smash just doesn't suck anymore, period.

Also, I was talking about unintentional things that the Dev Team does, not Sakurai in the vanilla games. Obviously a lot of things Sakurai did were unintentional, but with this mod that's focused on competitive balances, every change and decision should be conscious changes and decisions. And I don't believe anyone in the Dev Team was like, "Let's give ZSS no vertical kill options." Do you think they said "Let's make Up-Smash an incredibly [almost] useless move!"? No, it just kinda is, just cause.

You're not wrong in what you're saying; I agree that it is not needed and it's great to have weaknesses, it's just that again, all because it's not needed doesn't mean it can't be added in, and this change wouldn't really skew her viability at all. So really it's just a matter of "Why not?" It'd be a totally safe change.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'd actually argue that the current usmash has reasonable presence in her kit - or could, if designed properly. This isn't Fox's uair, Mewtwo's nair, or Lucas' dair; there's a great deal of risk relative to the potential reward for using the move in otherwise desirable situations.

Also an interesting visual reference to both what the move does and how she generally wants to play, which is kind of cool.

Something like raising the angle on the early frames of uair... that might be a different story. Still a combo tool, but instead feeding into up-b and giving you an option for killing off the top if it comes to that. She still wouldn't be particularly good at vertical kills, but she'd get a slight buff in that direction out of a change that works well with her core design.

I mentioned the up-b change above - I really don't think that was adequately tested, or if it was then I'm baffled on why they signed off on it knowing that it would break the move's expected functionality (without bringing DI or SDI into the equation) at very low percents. 1x SDI multiplier is fine, but a lower hitlag multiplier (0.5x?) would probably go a ways towards resolving the issue. Maybe tweak knockback values or other factors if necessary.

Calling something a "violation of Smash mechanics" or "against the laws of Smash" is lazy and kind of a cop-out. The only "laws" Smash has are those programmed into the very core of the game. These clearly allow for these supposed violations, and do so by design. What 0/0 hitlag/SDI modifiers did was break counterplay - you couldn't CC it at any percent and SDIing out was likewise impossible. The difference matters, particularly in how they affect one's perception and thought processes regarding the mechanics involved.

 

[Roche_CL]

I don't agree that Usmash is useless at all.
It's a really usefull combo tool against fastfallers (Zss main trouble) and its a niche option for tech chase in plataforms against other chars. It is a disjointed hitbox so it wins almost against anything coming from above, plus it lasts long so it the timing isn't that hard, and the cooldown isn't as horrible as Fsmash so it isn't that risky.
Just predict that fox or falco coming with a Dar/Bair and land the first Usmash in low percentage and they will suffer, you can follow up even if they DI away cause you can run and Usmash and in PM is even easier.