3.6 ZSS Discussion

[Deleted member]

Falcons throws are ridic, I agree

but ZSSs are what throws should be. I'm sorry that falcon is a melee vet, until the pmdt can nerf melee vets without people crying, I don't know what to tell you. I agree that falcons throws are kind of silly.

 

[Foo]

Falcons throws are ridic, I agree

but ZSSs are what throws should be. I'm sorry that falcon is a melee vet, until the pmdt can nerf melee vets without people crying, I don't know what to tell you. I agree that falcons throws are kind of silly.

ZSS throws are about as useful as pummeling until they mash out >.> If she has a real tech chase throw that didn't have silly amounts of lag, an upthrow that actually put you at advantage (heavy characters can literally hold towards you can hit you before you can act at lowish %s), and back and forward throws that actually had scaling knockback, sure. Pretty much all of her throws are the worst of that throw, and there are no DI traps. I'm not saying we need falcon throws, but upthrow should be more like marth/roy upthrow (not a clone, but that type of thing), dthrow should be a real tech chase, and/or backthrow

@ InfinityCollision

Side-b does a LOT of shield damage if you hit the sweetspot. That means it isn't a good idea to just block it. With good timing, you can CC the first or first and second hits and then spotdodge, but if you try to spotdodge the whole thing, you get hit by the last hit. As for 5, what do you mean? Should they stand there and take it? If they dash/wavedash/roll backwards to dodge it, they can't punish you. That makes it safer. They basically have to read the side-b and either hit you before it comes out, or jump over it if they are fast fallers. Against, not something you can spam, but it's a fairly useful option. As for the part with marth, getting downtilted on a hard read punish isn't really that bad and that is the worst case scenario because around 2% of the characters in the game are marth.

As for working harder, I guess it depends on what you define as working harder. I consider that having to press more buttons faster or preform more difficult tech. If you have to think better or harder, that's usually outplaying, not outworking.

 

[Player-3]

punishing... is not approaching... its punishing

 

[Shokio]

Falcons throws are ridic, I agree

but ZSSs are what throws should be. I'm sorry that falcon is a melee vet, until the pmdt can nerf melee vets without people crying, I don't know what to tell you. I agree that falcons throws are kind of silly.

Yup. Like I said earlier, hopefully ZSS's design is a sign of things to come for the entire roster. If not.....then she will forever have the weakest throw game in the entire game outside of Jiggs.

 

[beanwolf]

OK, I think all you guys are overreacting. ZSS is ridiculously fast, has a great wavedash, insane recovery that auto-sweetspots, and a move that LOCKS PEOPLE IN PLACE. Her throws are perfect for what she does best: MOVEMENT. Her combo game is good because of her movement in the air and on the ground in tandem with uncharacteristic move knockback (dair, up b, etc...) that keeps your opponent guessing with their combo DI, not their DI off of throws.

Yeah, her throws aren't the best for followups, especially now that downthrow is weight dependent. You know what other throws are weight dependent? Nearly every throw in Melee except for Sheik's downthrow. What they are great for is positioning. Throw an opponent up to a platform, chase their tech, downsmash --> whatever. Backthrow sends at a great down-and-out angle than sets up for good edgeguards, especially for a character that can go so insanely deep. Yes, she doesn't have a busted followup throw like Mario but she doesn't need one.

I mean come on guys, we are playing a character that effectively has a third jump for insane combos. You can't have an insane combo game, ridiculous neutral and recovery, AND free followups off your throws... unless you're Fox but in that case you also die the second you get touched by the entire cast. Instead of relying on grab --> death combo (which I can't blame anyone for because in 3.02 that was literally all of PM for every single character and unfortunately it still is for some), we should concentrate on using the new throws to gain advantage in terms of stage control and positioning rather than straight up hits.

 

[Shokio]

OK, I think all you guys are overreacting. ZSS is ridiculously fast, has a great wavedash, insane recovery that auto-sweetspots, and a move that LOCKS PEOPLE IN PLACE. Her throws are perfect for what she does best: MOVEMENT. Her combo game is good because of her movement in the air and on the ground in tandem with uncharacteristic move knockback (dair, up b, etc...) that keeps your opponent guessing with their combo DI, not their DI off of throws.

Yeah, her throws aren't the best for followups, especially now that downthrow is weight dependent. You know what other throws are weight dependent? Nearly every throw in Melee except for Sheik's downthrow. What they are great for is positioning. Throw an opponent up to a platform, chase their tech, downsmash --> whatever. Backthrow sends at a great down-and-out angle than sets up for good edgeguards, especially for a character that can go so insanely deep. Yes, she doesn't have a busted followup throw like Mario but she doesn't need one.

I mean come on guys, we are playing a character that effectively has a third jump for insane combos. You can't have an insane combo game, ridiculous neutral and recovery, AND free followups off your throws... unless you're Fox but in that case you also die the second you get touched by the entire cast. Instead of relying on grab --> death combo (which I can't blame anyone for because in 3.02 that was literally all of PM for every single character and unfortunately it still is for some), we should concentrate on using the new throws to gain advantage in terms of stage control and positioning rather than straight up hits.

1) The problem isn't that they made her down throw weight dependent, it's that they made it weight dependant PLUS an extra 5 frames of endlag thrown on there, which means double the lag.

2) Bringing up how good her recovery is is null considering if you hop on the ledge, you literally get a free punish, no questions asked. Play ZSS against a Bowser who has the ledge grabbed. It's horrifying. Falcon's knee, etc. If you get ZSS off-stage to where she has to tether, that's a stock, unless you're bad/stupid/make a mistake.

3) Up throw not being a DI mixup anymore isn't the only issue with the move - you literally get punished for using it at lower percents. I've done frame testing, I'm not exaggerating - people literally get out of hitstun before ZSS gets out of her endlag. Of course, it's especially bad against heavier characters. And at higher percents the throw is literally useless. So basically, you have 0%-50% where the throw can be used as a good positioner.......IF and ONLY if there's a platform above you.

4) Backthrow isn't as you describe it. It serves it's purpose but there's nothing actually "great" about it, nor does it send at low angle.

5) Fair out of a throw that is achieved via DI mixup would not be busted, actually. Fair is not an insanely powerful move, the only reason why it appears to kill so well is because most of the time it's being used far *off-stage*. It's knockback is decent, but it's no Bair. Add in the fact that it can be SDI'd, the ability to go for a Fair out of a mixup'd down throw would actually be, well, fair.

Also, I don't care how hard Fox gets combo'd, it's no justification for Up-Throw Up-Air. I don't care about anything regarding Falcon either, his throws into knee are ridiculous. There's no justification for the crap they can do, period.

 

[_Chrome]

Hey everyone! I've been gone from the ZSS threads for an extremely long time, and I'm just wondering how people are enjoying the character. Do people still think she's viable and just not fun, or something else? After playing around with her for quite sometime, I still think she's fun to play as, it's just that's she lost the uniqueness we've all loved. I guess I really just came back to check in with y'all. And to learn a few more things about her, since my school's smash club is starting up again and I'll be able to play regularly while I'm at school.

@ Shokio You're 100% right about how useless the throws are. I too like her Fair, but you're correct in saying that it's absolutely no Bair. I pretty much just use the throws to send people on top of platforms for tech-chases, etc. Her throws are fair: it's just they pale in comparison to the rest of the cast's throws. Also, yep, Fox and Falcon are kinda busted. But hey, I love guaranteed kill moves out of throws and instantaneous spikes to the face as much as the next guy! Right?!

...

Right?

 

[beanwolf]

1) The problem isn't that they made her down throw weight dependent, it's that they made it weight dependant PLUS an extra 5 frames of endlag thrown on there, which means double the lag.

2) Bringing up how good her recovery is is null considering if you hop on the ledge, you literally get a free punish, no questions asked. Play ZSS against a Bowser who has the ledge grabbed. It's horrifying. Falcon's knee, etc. If you get ZSS off-stage to where she has to tether, that's a stock, unless you're bad/stupid/make a mistake.

3) Up throw not being a DI mixup anymore isn't the only issue with the move - you literally get punished for using it at lower percents. I've done frame testing, I'm not exaggerating - people literally get out of hitstun before ZSS gets out of her endlag. Of course, it's especially bad against heavier characters. And at higher percents the throw is literally useless. So basically, you have 0%-50% where the throw can be used as a good positioner.......IF and ONLY if there's a platform above you.

4) Backthrow isn't as you describe it. It serves it's purpose but there's nothing actually "great" about it, nor does it send at low angle.

5) Fair out of a throw that is achieved via DI mixup would not be busted, actually. Fair is not an insanely powerful move, the only reason why it appears to kill so well is because most of the time it's being used far *off-stage*. It's knockback is decent, but it's no Bair. Add in the fact that it can be SDI'd, the ability to go for a Fair out of a mixup'd down throw would actually be, well, fair.

Also, I don't care how hard Fox gets combo'd, it's no justification for Up-Throw Up-Air. I don't care about anything regarding Falcon either, his throws into knee are ridiculous. There's no justification for the crap they can do, period.

Okay, #1 is definitely not ideal but typically people DI this throw away to begin with and the angle does not put someone in a position where they're going to try to hit you. Worst case, they jump out and you drag them down with UpB.

In regards to #2, the hop situation is another worst case scenario. I liken it to UpB-ing to the stage as Sheik. Of course the best thing you can do is sit there and wait and hope they get off ledge or drop in which you snap ledge and WD on. If you do have to do the hop, be ready to DI/SDI down and tech just like a Sheik would on recovery. You might take some %, but you should be able to at the very worst get to the other side of the stage and resume neutral. The drawback of having to hop occaisonally doesn't change the fact that she auto-sweetspots the ledge.

#3, they might be out of hitstun at higher percents but they're also in tumble. Play it like Marth would. Wait for them to burn their jump and then combo them to death. Yeah, the hitstun could be a little better but it is what it is.

I think backthrow is great for setting up gimps for midweights and fastfallers, to me it feels just like Sheik bthrow but that's just me.

As for #5 I definitely agree, she could use some followups a la Falcon (the character most people draw parallels to about her) but her neutral is so good combined with the threat of paralyzer I feel like she gets by fine as long as you are threatening your opponent enough there and converting your stray hits and zoning tools into combos.

Lastly, I think Fox and Falcon have perfect justification for their followups. If you get fox on knockdown as ZSS, he is DEAD as long as you play it right, and if Falcon every leaves the stage he dies in tandem with having a terrible neutral game. ZSS could use maybe ONE followup on a mixup but anything more I feel would be overkill

 

[Foo]

Beanwolf, most of your post is just flat out wrong.

"Her throws are perfect for what she does best: MOVEMENT."

Her throws move people? How unlike all other throws...

"that keeps your opponent guessing with their combo DI, not their DI off of throws. "

Or just, you know, hold away unless you get hit by one of her 3 kill moves or side-b.


"Yeah, her throws aren't the best for followups, especially now that downthrow is weight dependent. You know what other throws are weight dependent? Nearly every throw in Melee except for Sheik's downthrow."

That is literally the least important change to her throws. They also changed the angles and knockback to make follow ups worse, and then added 5 frames of lag to make them impossible. No one cares that it is weight dependent.

". Throw an opponent up to a platform, chase their tech, downsmash --> whatever"

First off, that would depend on being at a very specific % and being under a platform, second off, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to do that, unless your opponent drops their controller and fumbles picking it back up. Unless you are super fast faller at high%, you always want to standing tech on platform against ZSS upthrow because she physically cannot reach you in time.

"Backthrow sends at a great down-and-out angle"

Um, no? No it doesn't? It has a very standard angle, sending slightly up and away and has very very low knockback growth.

"Yes, she doesn't have a busted followup throw like Mario but she doesn't need one."

Obvious strawman. Who here asked for mario level throws?

"unless you're Fox but in that case you also die the second you get touched by the entire cast."

This is also not true at all.

"we should concentrate on using the new throws to gain advantage in terms of stage control and positioning rather than straight up hits."

They are bad at this. Really bad at this. If her upthrow actually sent them up enough, and dthrow was actually a tech chase throw, then sure. However, sending them slightly away from you without follow up isn't that effective. Her throws are so bad that I actually have started pummeling till my opponents mash out unless they have really good mashing. The angle is actually better for positioning than dthrow or fthrow and it sends farther.

-

You have to understand what we have actually asked for before you refute it too, lol. I'm not asking for 3.02 throws, I'm not asking for mario throws or falcon throws. I want upthrow to send higher and have less lag. (No guaranteed follow ups, but useful for positioning) I want dthrow to be an actual tech chase throw and that's it. I don't want zss to have great throws, I want her to have throws that aren't garbage. Shokio says jiggles has worse throws slightly, but I actually think ZSS has worse throws lol (not that jiggles relies on grab anway). I just want functioning throws. Throws that do something. I would even love having something like roy or marth throws (she wouldn't have follow ups because she doesn't have super long ranged quick options) because it would give her a chain grab on spacies to make the matchup less impossible and also give her some decent positional throws and a working tech chase on fast fallers.

2) Bringing up how good her recovery is is null considering if you hop on the ledge, you literally get a free punish, no questions asked. Play ZSS against a Bowser who has the ledge grabbed. It's horrifying. Falcon's knee, etc. If you get ZSS off-stage to where she has to tether, that's a stock, unless you're bad/stupid/make a mistake.

This isn't really true for ZSS. For every other tether character, this is completely true, but zss actually has options off the tether hop. 3, in particular. She can either hold forward to get as far onstage as possible, hold back for a moment to go for regrab on ledge (and if they hold it you can re-upb or hold forward at the last second) or you can hold all the way back and retether.) It's not a good situation, but it's not a free kill.

 

[Shokio]

I'm well aware of her aerial mobility, but once people see it for the first time, they just chose options that cover everything. For instance, Toon Link can Up-B which will cover any option, Bowser Bair will cover, etc. Even with characters that may not have an all-encompassing move, honestly, it's fairly easy to read what the player is going to do once the force get up is initiated.

The mixups work game 1. Once game 2 hits, it's GG's. I am speaking form experience lol. Or maybe DFW is too gud?

 

[Player-3]

zss throws are fine they just feel awful cuz of the lag not matching animations tbh

 

[Shokio]

No, Up-Throw is legitimately not fine lol. It's not JUST the awkward feel, the duration as a whole is so long that YOU get punished for using it, and the angle is awful. It should throw people directly above her, not out and away at an 80 degree angle. Even at low percents, people can DI it so easily to where they won't be thrown on the platform above you (which is the only situation where the throw has any use in the first place.)

The throw is not good.

 

[beanwolf]

Weight dependency is important though, I typically play vs. a lot of spacies and uthrow and dthrow are both fast enough to reliably techchase all 3 of them on reaction until kill percent even with the stupid lag on the end of it. On midweights and up, the added lag on uthrow is a problem, its an overnerf for sure but its certainly not impossible to get platform tech followups like I described, I do it to marth/sheik all the time but it is impossible against anyone like Link or heavier, maybe a little less. With those characters its better to initiate it with dtilt.

I would agree that a marth uthrow would actually be perfect for her, and I agree the lag on the end feels awkward and dumb but I'm getting used to it at this point. And with backthrow my last play session was with fox/falco/wolf only for like 8 hours so forgive me on the bthrow, for spacies they fall down and out after popping up slightly at like the perfect angle to get bair'd or fair'd out of UpB or SideB since it basically forces an instant double jump.

In Melee if I am not killing a spacie off of a single grab I am losing as Sheik. Same philosophy holds as Melee Falcon. ZSS plays the matchup very similarly to those 2 and even with the throw nerfs their light weight and falling speed are more than enough to make up for the nerfed throws and give you the techchases you need to 0-death them.

 

[_Chrome]

The throws are awful. If your opponents are any good, they'll realize if they simply DI away from you there will be absolutely no followups unless there is a platform. Even if you try to surprise them by using her back throw, it sends at an angle such that there aren't followups no matter how they DI.

EDIT: I'm glad to see Foo and Shokio still know what they're talking about.

 

[Roche_CL]

I hate new Nair, i mean, you can take away the grabs, you can take away me paralyzer, but me combos >_<, I simply can't follow up as good as before with Nairs strings and stuff.
-.-

 

[Shokio]

Nair's eww.

 

[Foo]

Nair actually pretty good imo. It's a super good combo tool, and actually lets her kill out of her combos. It just doesn't function in neutral anymore, which kinda sucks. It's still one of her best moves. Especially if you are good at landing the behind but forward hitbox.

 

[Shokio]

Oh, for-sure. I'm speaking elusively about the range change. I will forever be salty abou it lol.

 

[Foo]

Oh, for-sure. I'm speaking elusively about the range change. I will forever be salty abou it lol.

I don't blame you for that. It baffles me that they made it hit even less low. The combined with the up-b nerfs makes her oos literally only grab. You can instant bair against tall characters doing super unsafe things into your shield, but that's it. Basically all you can do is wavedash, spotdodge, roll, or jump.

 

[Player-3]

The combined with the up-b nerfs makes her oos literally only grab.

Basically all you can do is wavedash, spotdodge, roll, or jump.

WHICH ONE IS lT

 

[Foo]

WHICH ONE IS lT

I don't consider movement an oos option since literally every character can viably do all of them in basically the same way, with the slight exception of wavedash oos I guess. I was referring to couterattacking oos options, guess I could have worded that more clearly.

 

[Heero Yuy]

I agree with Foo that Nair is still pretty good, in spite of the fact that it's not useful in the neutral anymore. Gotta work for that clean Dsmash hit.

I'm divided on her Uthrow. When playing my Falcon friend on FD I got regrabs off uthrow around the 60-80~% range. Was this a true CG? I honestly doubt it since he was DI'ing awfully. So yeah perhaps reduce the endlag on the uthrow would work.

 

[Foo]

I agree with Foo that Nair is still pretty good, in spite of the fact that it's not useful in the neutral anymore. Gotta work for that clean Dsmash hit.

I'm divided on her Uthrow. When playing my Falcon friend on FD I got regrabs off uthrow around the 60-80~% range. Was this a true CG? I honestly doubt it since he was DI'ing awfully. So yeah perhaps reduce the endlag on the uthrow would work.

Not a true CG at any %s. You have to no DI or DI in for it to work. Maybe with dreamland wind or something it works lawl. Also, I really don't think downsmash is very good anymore. It does less damage and you don't have as much time to set up. Before, you could double downsmash to nair, but now upair is pretty much your only option out of it. Tacking on 8 damage to upair by using a frame 20 move instead is pretty crap. Plus, if they mash well, it's ridiculous. You can't get guaranteed follow ups of dsmash till like 50 if they are good at mashing. Not to mention, slightly less damage and slightly less slide(sorta) means slightly less safe.

I am favoring dtilt in pretty much every situation I would use dsmash before. The only time I use downsmash at this point is for edgeguards or hard hard reads. Dtilt feels significantly better this patch as well, it generally combos into fair or bair reliably. It's hard to DI properly since it comes out so fast anyway.

 

[Legit]

Not a true CG at any %s. You have to no DI or DI in for it to work. Maybe with dreamland wind or something it works lawl. Also, I really don't think downsmash is very good anymore. It does less damage and you don't have as much time to set up. Before, you could double downsmash to nair, but now upair is pretty much your only option out of it. Tacking on 8 damage to upair by using a frame 20 move instead is pretty crap. Plus, if they mash well, it's ridiculous. You can't get guaranteed follow ups of dsmash till like 50 if they are good at mashing. Not to mention, slightly less damage and slightly less slide(sorta) means slightly less safe.

I am favoring dtilt in pretty much every situation I would use dsmash before. The only time I use downsmash at this point is for edgeguards or hard hard reads. Dtilt feels significantly better this patch as well, it generally combos into fair or bair reliably. It's hard to DI properly since it comes out so fast anyway.

I've agreed with you on most things, but not this. Dsmash is still one of her strongest B&B moves and is far and away her best combo starter. It's still possible and actually really easy to get a nair out of a dsmash, which CAN link into another nair or uairs. Landing a dsmash in neutral, while difficult, is still very rewarding, and relatively safe if spaced properly. One would need to begin mashing as soon as dsmash hits in order to mash fast enough to not get a nair off at early % (I for one doubt it's even possible to mash out that early). Dtilt has too much endlag to be completely safe even if spaced perfectly, though it's somewhat hard to punish. I find myself using dtilt mid-combo at low% or after landing with an aerial on occasion in the hopes that they drop shield.

 

[_Chrome]

I've agreed with you on most things, but not this. Dsmash is still one of her strongest B&B moves and is far and away her best combo starter. It's still possible and actually really easy to get a nair out of a dsmash, which CAN link into another nair or uairs. Landing a dsmash in neutral, while difficult, is still very rewarding, and relatively safe if spaced properly. One would need to begin mashing as soon as dsmash hits in order to mash fast enough to not get a nair off at early % (I for one doubt it's even possible to mash out that early). Dtilt has too much endlag to be completely safe even if spaced perfectly, though it's somewhat hard to punish. I find myself using dtilt mid-combo at low% or after landing with an aerial on occasion in the hopes that they drop shield.

I mostly agree with you, but I love both dtilt and dsmash. I generally prefer dtilt, but I love to throw in dsmashes out of dash to start a big combo (same with dtilt out of dash). ZSS' dtilt is safer than dsmash, but isn't as rewarding. In my opinion, I think dtilt and dsmash are her best moves, along with uair and a few others.

 

[Foo]

I've agreed with you on most things, but not this. Dsmash is still one of her strongest B&B moves and is far and away her best combo starter. It's still possible and actually really easy to get a nair out of a dsmash, which CAN link into another nair or uairs. Landing a dsmash in neutral, while difficult, is still very rewarding, and relatively safe if spaced properly. One would need to begin mashing as soon as dsmash hits in order to mash fast enough to not get a nair off at early % (I for one doubt it's even possible to mash out that early). Dtilt has too much endlag to be completely safe even if spaced perfectly, though it's somewhat hard to punish. I find myself using dtilt mid-combo at low% or after landing with an aerial on occasion in the hopes that they drop shield.

It's still her best combo started PROVIDED YOU CAN HIT IT, and provided they are too high to mash out. Yes, you can absolutely still downsmash into nair, but I was talking about the double downsmash nair you could do last patch. This patch, nair isn't good out of dsmash because nair is different, so you almost always want upair. This means downsmash does less than half the damage it used to, effectively. I was exaggerating about the until 50% thing, but since playing against some good mashers, holy crap. There is like no time.

Main problem with dsmash is that it comes out so slow, you can react to it easily. Having a third of a second to react, and take action against a move gives you plenty of time. They can just roll behind you into anything on reaction. dtilt, on the otherhand, comes out super duper fast (frame 5 oh baby). It's also not as laggy as you say. It ends on frame 26, giving it 21 frames of lag (the last hitbox on dtilt ends on frame 7). Dsmash, on the other hand, has 16. It's less laggy, but coming out a full 15 frames sooner helps a lot more imo. Good players who know the matchup can react and take an option to punish it other than shield.

Someone reading this may stop and think "Duh, that's why you put them in a spot where they don't have options to react!" and yes, that is absolutely correct, that's I love it as a hard read tool. In neutral, it's just too unreliable. Almost like fishing for raptor boost in neutral as falcon, but less punishable.

 

[Legit]

dtilt, on the otherhand, comes out super duper fast (frame 5 oh baby). It's also not as laggy as you say. It ends on frame 26, giving it 21 frames of lag (the last hitbox on dtilt ends on frame 7). Dsmash, on the other hand, has 16. It's less laggy, but coming out a full 15 frames sooner helps a lot more imo. Good players who know the matchup can react and take an option to punish it other than shield.

Dtilt does come out way faster, which is why I like to use it in a situation where dsmash would be impossible (ie after landing with an aerial). But because dsmash is less laggy and has a lot more range, it's way safer to throw out in the neutral than dtilt. A whiffed dtilt is punished far more often than a whiffed dsmash. I'm not saying I don't like dtilt, I love both moves, but I vastly prefer dsmash in neutral.

 

[Legit]

I went to a tourney yesterday and lost a set to a Falcon player who I really feel I shouldn't have lost to. Is it just me or has the ZSS vs Falcon MU gone from even/slightly CF's favor to almost spacies impossible? What do you all think of the MU in 3.5? What are you supposed to do? He's really similar to ZSS but all his combos are super free and much stronger....

 

[Foo]

I went to a tourney yesterday and lost a set to a Falcon player who I really feel I shouldn't have lost to. Is it just me or has the ZSS vs Falcon MU gone from even/slightly CF's favor to almost spacies impossible? What do you all think of the MU in 3.5? What are you supposed to do? He's really similar to ZSS but all his combos are super free and much stronger....

Not as bad as spacies, but it's pretty bad. Just take solace in being able to gimp him super easily with nair and divekick.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Side-b does a LOT of shield damage if you hit the sweetspot.

Sweetspot deals 3 additional shield damage, so... 9ish damage on shield from a sweetspot. If ZSS could sustain pressure on shield then it might be worth noting, but I don't see that as particularly significant in this instance. It doesn't stab effectively, it doesn't put you in a position to continue pressuring, etc.

With good timing, you can CC the first or first and second hits and then spotdodge, but if you try to spotdodge the whole thing, you get hit by the last hit.

The hitboxes come out in completely different positions, so I'm inclined to disagree here barring fatties.

As for 5, what do you mean? Should they stand there and take it?

For whatever reason I read that as roll backwards, so don't mind that.

As for the part with marth, getting downtilted on a hard read punish isn't really that bad and that is the worst case scenario because around 2% of the characters in the game are marth.

That's not the point. Marth is tied with Sheik, DK, and Pikachu for 11th fastest run speed. If Marth can punish Plasma Whip, there are at least 10 other characters that should be able to punish a whiff to some degree using a close range option. Sheik can boost grab and DA, so that's another one; haven't tried with DK or Pika. The faster they are, the better their window for punishment. There's a few other characters that could theoretically punish with a grab or close range attack, but are unlikely to do so for mechanical reasons. For example, WD->grab is a thing for Mewtwo (and probably Squirtle/Luigi by extension), but it's less likely to occur during an actual match due to the mechanics of their movement. If any of them could do it consistently, it would probably be Squirtle.

As for working harder, I guess it depends on what you define as working harder. I consider that having to press more buttons faster or preform more difficult tech. If you have to think better or harder, that's usually outplaying, not outworking.

It's not so much the level of thought mid-match as it is the preparation and precision required to optimize her kit relative to the rewards thereof.

 

[JeezImSoBored]

sup guys. I'm mostly a melee player who play melee characters in pm. Trying to pick up ZSS (but all the info about how bad she is now kinda hurts q n q )

Couple of things I want to ask.
1. fully charged neutral B to run in jump in side B: seems to work if the neutral B hits (although it is pretty hard unless they mess up)
just wanna have some confirmation, I could be completely wrong.
2. how reliable is uptilt? It is super fast (3 frames) but it has a significant amount of lag. I've also seen leffen link it to bair to kill.
3. I find using dtilt to bair the only reliable kill setup. (downsmash is slow..., combos all seem avoidable if people just DI away)
Or I just do a lot of run away spaced bairs (like oro does)
4. Does ZSS really have no real tech chase off throws? Are all the techchases from throws I see in the Oro and Leffen videos *fraudulent* ?
5. I found a tech that I haven't seen anyone use. And seeing how "bad" ZSS is, I figured I'd share it to everyone here. I like to do run off reverse UpB and you will just fall off and grab ledge (without using one of ur tether charges cuz u never actually tethered). I THINK it is super good but hey, what do I know.
6. is it better to go for nair as a finisher instead of fair when I combo off stage? (since fair is unreliable due to SDI/ASDI)
7. How do you fight spacies? Whats the game plan in neutral? Whats the game plan once you get a hit/grab? How do you edgeguard them?

(I'll also share my video eventually on the video thread and hopefully if I can get some feedback that'd be great)

My current thoughts on ZSS:
1. Good movement
2. Good upair.
3. Has hard time killing
4. Weak OOS game
5. Weak edgeguard game (if people sweet spot correctly)
6. Doesn't have a "real" combo game (DI away on everything)
7. Has a lot of swag.

Lmk what you guys think on these points, I'll be around!

 

[Deleted member]

Her edge guard game is fine with her down b lol.

 

[InfinityCollision]

1. fully charged neutral B to run in jump in side B: seems to work if the neutral B hits (although it is pretty hard unless they mess up)
just wanna have some confirmation, I could be completely wrong

It "works", but don't get greedy with the charged paralyzer shots since they're pretty punishable.

2. how reliable is uptilt? It is super fast (3 frames) but it has a significant amount of lag. I've also seen leffen link it to bair to kill.

Good combo starter.

3. I find using dtilt to bair the only reliable kill setup. (downsmash is slow..., combos all seem avoidable if people just DI away)
Or I just do a lot of run away spaced bairs (like oro does)

There are a few ways to set up for bair or fair. Sometimes via combo, sometimes out of a techchase (from throw or upb), sometimes out of dsmash.

4. Does ZSS really have no real tech chase off throws? Are all the techchases from throws I see in the Oro and Leffen videos *fraudulent* ?

Characters of certain weights/fall speeds can get out basically for free depending on percent and stage positioning, yes.

5. I found a tech that I haven't seen anyone use. And seeing how "bad" ZSS is, I figured I'd share it to everyone here. I like to do run off reverse UpB and you will just fall off and grab ledge (without using one of ur tether charges cuz u never actually tethered). I THINK it is super good but hey, what do I know.

You can do that if you time it right, yeah, but there's really no reason to use it over a basic wd->ledgegrab.

6. is it better to go for nair as a finisher instead of fair when I combo off stage? (since fair is unreliable due to SDI/ASDI)

Usually no, unless you think you've got a solid edgeguard off it. You can go for both hits, or potentially try to set it up so you only land the second hit of fair to avoid the possibility of SDI.

7. How do you fight spacies?

Change characters.

Spacies are hard because she doesn't have anything relatively free on them and lacks the means to really dominate them in neutral (space animals win neutral game, film at 11!). Get the most you can out of every techchase, try to push them offstage asap, keep them there.

And yeah, she does alright with edgeguarding.

 

[Foo]

sup guys. I'm mostly a melee player who play melee characters in pm. Trying to pick up ZSS (but all the info about how bad she is now kinda hurts q n q )

Couple of things I want to ask.
1. fully charged neutral B to run in jump in side B: seems to work if the neutral B hits (although it is pretty hard unless they mess up)
just wanna have some confirmation, I could be completely wrong.
2. how reliable is uptilt? It is super fast (3 frames) but it has a significant amount of lag. I've also seen leffen link it to bair to kill.
3. I find using dtilt to bair the only reliable kill setup. (downsmash is slow..., combos all seem avoidable if people just DI away)
Or I just do a lot of run away spaced bairs (like oro does)
4. Does ZSS really have no real tech chase off throws? Are all the techchases from throws I see in the Oro and Leffen videos *fraudulent* ?
5. I found a tech that I haven't seen anyone use. And seeing how "bad" ZSS is, I figured I'd share it to everyone here. I like to do run off reverse UpB and you will just fall off and grab ledge (without using one of ur tether charges cuz u never actually tethered). I THINK it is super good but hey, what do I know.
6. is it better to go for nair as a finisher instead of fair when I combo off stage? (since fair is unreliable due to SDI/ASDI)
7. How do you fight spacies? Whats the game plan in neutral? Whats the game plan once you get a hit/grab? How do you edgeguard them?

(I'll also share my video eventually on the video thread and hopefully if I can get some feedback that'd be great)

My current thoughts on ZSS:
1. Good movement
2. Good upair.
3. Has hard time killing
4. Weak OOS game
5. Weak edgeguard game (if people sweet spot correctly)
6. Doesn't have a "real" combo game (DI away on everything)
7. Has a lot of swag.

Lmk what you guys think on these points, I'll be around!

1. Fully charged neutral b is pretty much bad in general. Uncharged blaster is almost always the way to go, and it is pretty much just used to keep opponents from setting things up, or to force them to do something.

2. Uptilt is pretty good, but it's not a safe option. It's a high risk high reward move. I prefer dtilt in most situations.

3. There are more kill setups, like comboing into fair, putting yourself into an edgeguard situation or landing dsmash on a hard read. That, or just landing a spaced bair.

4. Dthrow is a tech chase at low%s or against fast fallers.

5. You can do that sure, but it's easy to go deep and make it back without b-reversing it. Generally, b-reversing it will make you not actually land the up-b unless you drift past them, then they'll have more time to dodge it. Off stage fairs, nairs and divekicks are also good.

6. Fair is a combo finisher and a kill move, nair is a combo extender/gimp tool.

7. Cry deeply.

 

[JeezImSoBored]

Thanks for the replies.

The application of the "run off reverse upB" includes when you dive kick edge cancel to the ledge to escape pressure, you can use the reverse upB to grab ledge immediately without using the tether. Just a nice touch for some minor optimization.

 

[Foo]

God, the struggle of the ZSS main is real. The more I play ZSS, the better and more consistent I get with her, and I even occasionally learn new tricks. However, the more I play her the lower my opinion of her viability goes... The temptation to drop her to a secondary is strong... I had an easier time beating my friend (luigi/game and watch) with my terrible ganon than with my zss. Like... that shouldn't happen. I even had an easier time beating his luigi with my game and watch. I don't even play those characters.

I feel like I'm already the best ZSS in the carolinas right now, but I don't even think there are other ZSS players in the carolinas. Right now, my goal is to get poweranked top 10 in NC, but I'm not sure doing it with ZSS is my best chance Maybe I'll follow suit with other ZSS players like Oro and begin working more on other characters.

Give me strength ZSS boards.

 

[Stryker]

God, the struggle of the ZSS main is real. The more I play ZSS, the better and more consistent I get with her, and I even occasionally learn new tricks. However, the more I play her the lower my opinion of her viability goes... The temptation to drop her to a secondary is strong...

I totally agree with this. I don't hate playing the new ZSS, it's just it's so much work for so little.
Mang0 has said a few times that the Marth vs Capt. F matchup is 50/50 in melee, but that Capt falcon has a hard 50% to work with, and this is really how I feel with ZSS. Yeah, she has some good options, but why work so hard for so little when you can have as much fun on another character, but get significantly more out of them.
I still play her in casuals and friendlies, but I am hesitant to bring her out in bracket just because I feel like I can accomplish things easier with anyone else.

 

[Shokio]

Have faith guys, have faith........

 

[Foo]

Same thing actually happened to me the other day. Only instead of dying I teleported to ledge instantly. It's probably because the I up-b boosted DAMNIT WHY DOES NOBODY ELSE USE UP-B BOOST.

 

[Stryker]

Did your tether just straight up not come out? O.o

Same thing actually happened to me the other day. Only instead of dying I teleported to ledge instantly. It's probably because the I up-b boosted DAMNIT WHY DOES NOBODY ELSE USE UP-B BOOST.

is a boosted up b just using your tether at the same time as your double jump to get the bit of extra height? (Just clarifying)

As a quick edit cause I dont want to post again and clog things up

The application of the "run off reverse upB" includes when you dive kick edge cancel to the ledge to escape pressure, you can use the reverse upB to grab ledge immediately without using the tether. Just a nice touch for some minor optimization.

This is super cute. Very minor, and hard to apply practically, but I can picture exactly what you mean and it's so fancy you already know.