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3.6 ZSS Discussion

ThreeSided

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If you want a cool edge guard using dair, my favorite is, hanging on the ledge, drop down Dair > Bair. It's a little tough to time, but there are many, many characters who can do almost nothing to stop it.
 

Foo

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Maybe I'm stating something obvious, but ZSS's nair is more nuanced than people give it credit for. I read some people saying the hitbox hits behind her; actually, the hit box changes given they way you di when you use the move. If you nair as you are moving forward, it hits behind you. If you nair, then fade back, the hitbox is in front of you. I think this last option is of use to space people out.


Also, i think dair is a solid edgeguard against fox and falco's side b when they try to sweet spot of the edge.
Yeah, we know about the backwards hitbox, but you are wrong about it's properties. It hits farther behind her than in front of her right now, and that doesn't change at all based on the directions you are traveling. Nairing and then traveling back is useful because it gets you farther away from them if they shield, meaning they can't shield grab you. Only way to pull that off this patch is to instant nair directly in front of them, though.

As for dair, it's not a solid edgeguard against anyone. If you were referring to her dive kick, then you are correct. Divekick is a good, but slightly risky edgeguard. Dair is her worst aerial to edgeguard with. Reverse upair off ledge has it's uses, bair is really good after they grab ledge, nair is great when you read their double jump, and fair is good for going super deep for an edgeguard and KOing them. For ledgeguarding spacies in particular, dsmash is the way to go against side-b sweetspots (except wolf).
 

G13_Flux

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If you want a cool edge guard using dair, my favorite is, hanging on the ledge, drop down Dair > Bair. It's a little tough to time, but there are many, many characters who can do almost nothing to stop it.
they can SDI and DI hard towards the stage. probably wont be able to bair then unfortunatley. dair would have its uses for edge guarding if the hitbox stayed out longer and was bigger. its a very precise move unfortuantely. yorue better off just bairing outright or divekicking.
 

ThreeSided

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they can SDI and DI hard towards the stage. probably wont be able to bair then unfortunately. dair would have its uses for edge guarding if the hitbox stayed out longer and was bigger. its a very precise move unfortunately. you're better off just bairing outright or divekicking.
I feel like there's a lot more to this. If you do it low enough and they DI as you said, then they'll either be in an extremely disadvantageous position (one that many characters have trouble recovering from) or they'll have to tech the stage. While the latter isn't as bad, that pop-up from Dair means you'll either be on the ledge or on the stage, which means you get another attempt at edge guarding rather than just letting them get back to the stage.

If you mean higher up, then fair might work, though I'm not sure about that.
 
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Foo

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I feel like there's a lot more to this. If you do it low enough and they DI as you said, then they'll either be in an extremely disadvantageous position (one that many characters have trouble recovering from) or they'll have to tech the stage. While the latter isn't as bad, that pop-up from Dair means you'll either be on the ledge or on the stage, which means you get another attempt at edge guarding rather than just letting them get back to the stage.

If you mean higher up, then fair might work, though I'm not sure about that.
It's even more simple than he said, sadly. If they go for side-b sweetspot and hold towards stage and hit L within 20 frames of you hitting them, they will tech stage. If they want to be slightly fancier, they could also wall jump tech it and go for another side-b sweetspot. You'd be much much better off nailing them with a downsmash. They actually need to SDI to tech that one.
 

chrome12345

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because down smash doesn't catch them if they sweet spot the ledge, unless if you are literally on the ledge. Yes dair is more rewarding if you can land it, but I don't think you can always land it in time, so I think dair is a solid choice. We must have different conceptions of what we mean when we are talking about her hit box. To clarify If you go to debug mode and you do a retreating nair, the hit box is infront of you (yes a part of it still hits behind you), that means it can be used as a spacing tool. However, it can't be used as a spacing tool if you only move forward since the hitbox will be behind you.
 

Foo

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because down smash doesn't catch them if they sweet spot the ledge, unless if you are literally on the ledge. Yes dair is more rewarding if you can land it, but I don't think you can always land it in time, so I think dair is a solid choice. We must have different conceptions of what we mean when we are talking about her hit box. To clarify If you go to debug mode and you do a retreating nair, the hit box is infront of you (yes a part of it still hits behind you), that means it can be used as a spacing tool. However, it can't be used as a spacing tool if you only move forward since the hitbox will be behind you.
Dair is MUCH harder to hit than downsmash with spacies side b and pretty much everyone in general. There is a split second where spacies are vunerable and within range of ledge. That's the same window where you'd hit them with dair, only you don't really have to commit at all. Also, dair isn't just lower reward, it's basically no reward.

As for nair, that's because it's a trancendent hitbox or something. Debug mode doesn't do them very well. The hitboxes aren't accurate, because debug just leaves them in place for a moment. When you are going foward and nair, and pause a moment later, the hitbox looks to be inside you, but it's not. The bubbles just don't move/disappear the way they are supposed to. The hitboxes are almost identical to the animation in actual play. The hitbox is not farther in front of you if you are going backwards, nor the other way around. It's always x distance in front of and y behind you.
 

Captain Zack

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hello i used to play zss in tournament for the fun of it, but then she lost her grab and i stopped.
 

InfinityCollision

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because down smash doesn't catch them if they sweet spot the ledge, unless if you are literally on the ledge. Yes dair is more rewarding if you can land it, but I don't think you can always land it in time, so I think dair is a solid choice. We must have different conceptions of what we mean when we are talking about her hit box. To clarify If you go to debug mode and you do a retreating nair, the hit box is infront of you (yes a part of it still hits behind you), that means it can be used as a spacing tool. However, it can't be used as a spacing tool if you only move forward since the hitbox will be behind you.
Debug mode doesn't handle articles well, so don't trust it too much for anything involving her plasma whip.

And no, her dair is not a good choice for edgeguarding.
 

Heero Yuy

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How do you guys think ZSS does against Sheik - my most hated matchup?

Also I'm curious to how her punishes work in this patch, seeing as though most of her autocombos from 3.5 are history.
 

Foo

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How do you guys think ZSS does against Sheik - my most hated matchup?

Also I'm curious to how her punishes work in this patch, seeing as though most of her autocombos from 3.5 are history.
ZSS loses the matchup because shiek, but it's not as bad for ZSS as it is for most characters. You have to capitalize heavily on your mobility advantage to win the matchup.

Her combo game is about as good as it was last patch, if not slightly better. However, it is much more difficult overall. Upair strings replace her old nair strings (while being only slightly less effective) but here's the difference. You can switch from upairs to nair and mid%s (depending on fall speed) and nair links to fair, allowing zero suit to actually end combos with kill a move. Also, where previously could not follow up on low% (like 0-10%) aerials at all, she can now link grab out of all of them but dair. Downsmash is just as good for combos, you just have to act faster and side-b is slightly bettter, though they can still just hold down to win if they are smart.
 

Captain Zack

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How do you guys think ZSS does against Sheik - my most hated matchup?

Also I'm curious to how her punishes work in this patch, seeing as though most of her autocombos from 3.5 are history.
camp platforms and shield. punish sheik with like a grab or utilt lol.
 

Shokio

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Mewtwo can actually prevent himself from hitting (from the down throw) the ground at 0%. I found this out Saturday. He can actually hover and/or Fair you as you dash forward, trying to get a tech read.
 

Heero Yuy

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I cannot see why many claim ZSS is bad in 3.5. I'm doing much better with her than my former main, Link, after using her for only 3 weeks. She seems to have a great ground game with the gun and SideB, not to mention the former can pressure from afar. Not to mention her speed and dashdance is still on point and recovery seems among the best in the game.

I want to hear everyone's input but don't be too harsh on mine - I've only been using her in 3.5.
 
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Shokio

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I cannot see why many claim ZSS is bad in 3.5. I'm doing much better with her than my former main, Link, after using her for only 3 weeks. She seems to have a great ground game with the gun and SideB, not to mention the former can pressure from afar. Not to mention her speed and dashdance is still on point and recovery seems among the best in the game.

I want to hear everyone's input but don't be too harsh on mine - I've only been using her in 3.5.
She's not bad. Myself and some others may have used that word before, but I don't think anyone here truly ever thought/thinks that she's BAD in terms of viability. Most of it is just salt that the was changed so drastically, and the fact that the reasoning behind many of her changes were not applied to other characters.

The way I see it, ZSS is a good character, it's just that she requires much more work for an even or lesser reward that you can get from most of the other chars in the roster who are much easier to use. But her requiring much more skill isn't a bad thing in itself, it just means that the other chars still need to be evened out a bit, which is the problem.

I cannot think of another character in the game that doesn't have a kill throw, combo throw, a tech chase throw, or a DI mixup, other than Jiggs. Yes, you may be saying "ZSS has a tech chase throw though", but her's is pretty awful. People can actually DI out of hitting the ground, while avoiding any aerial follow-up at the same time. So I'm hard press to call her down throw a proper tech chase throw. Yes, you'll see it tech chasing in 3.5 vids you can look up, but that's only because people are applying the "proper" DI when really they don't have to DI down and away at all. But like I was saying, most characters have at least 2 kinds of the types of throws that exist in Smash. ZSS has 0.5 of them. Grabbing is a HUGE part of Smash, and usually where most combos strings and damage happen. If you don't get much off of your grabs, that is a disadvantage that character has.

Her moves are also extremely easy to DI out of compared to everyone else, such as her Nair and Uair. A lot of chars still contain their auto-combos from 3.0 (and Melee), while ZSS's combo game requires much more accuracy, DI-reading, and creativity.

Basically, she's kinda in that Pikachu, ROB, Luigi tier, where they're good characters, but they just require so much more work than the rest of the cast.

But it's cool, that just means us ZSS mains are ahead of the curve, right? She's further in development then most chars. I'm sure the Dev Team is working on making things even more less free and more skill-oriented for the rest of the roster. Right Dev Team? RIGHT?
 

ph00tbag

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I've already stated and restated my opinion on 3.5 ZSS pretty exhaustively in the petition thread, almost once per page. You can go through and find any one of those posts, and you'll see that her viability is the least of my concerns. Most of my problem comes from removing the tether grab, in fact, which most would regard as an on paper buff.
 

Foo

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I cannot see why many claim ZSS is bad in 3.5. I'm doing much better with her than my former main, Link, after using her for only 3 weeks. She seems to have a great ground game with the gun and SideB, not to mention the former can pressure from afar. Not to mention her speed and dashdance is still on point and recovery seems among the best in the game.

I want to hear everyone's input but don't be too harsh on mine - I've only been using her in 3.5.
I really astounds me that so many people think they know what every ZSS player thinks about ZSS without actually reading our posts. "They complained about ZSS, so they must think she is bad!" no

She's good, probably upper mid, or maybe the bottom side of high tier, though I think some other characters getting discovered will push her down a bit. I think there are a lot of characters that are stronger than people think right now. For instance, some people call luigi's recovery one of the worst in the game, but don't realize that anyone with the correct button layout can grab ledge with down-b from off the bottom on the screen.

But anyway, since you won't read our earlier posts, I guess I'll just sum it up for you. ZSS had her strength nerfed, but so did just about everyone else, so she's still fine in that regard. However, she had a lot of really fun and unique aspects of her character outright removed. Namely, dash cancel blaster. They gave her a standard grab to "better fit her character" (actual quote by PMDT, or close) but that makes about as much sense as giving falcon a great recovery because he's named after a bird. This regular grab made dc paralyzer OP no matter how they implemented it (so they outright removed it), and the new grab threw off the balance of her risk/reward game, so they gave her positional throws/tech chase throws. However, they didn't check fully to see if they actually WORKED. For instance, if some characters DI's into an upthrow at lower %s, they can hit you before you leave the lag. If you DI correctly against dthrow at not low %s, you can avoid tech chases as long as you aren't a fast faller.

In the end, ZSS turned from a really unique character with a completely unique playstyle to a much more boring and slower playstyle. It's like falcon with a projectile, but without the very safe approaches. That's what most of us are upset about; her fun was nerfed into the ground.

Also, I don't really think I agree with shokio's post. Her combo game is about as hard to do as falcon imo, and I don't think she's a particularly difficult character to make work. It requires a lot of character knowledge, but not as much as it did in 3.02.
 

Heero Yuy

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Roflmao Foo chill out I'm referring to some opinions I heard from the ZSS Skype social, which many of them, Oro?! among them did say she was bad.

And I'm biased since I haven't played ZSS in 3.02 and before, so I'm with Shokio. DC blaster was something that I'm mixed on. It helped her approach a lot but at the same time it was a bit 2gud. Not to mention DI'ing out of her moves like Nair and Uair is fine in this new reality. The new grab is a lot safer too and seems much easier to utilize in the neutral. She might have less reward for those punish opportunities due to weirder angles of her combo moves, but that's natural for every character that got nerfed from 3.02.

Yep, I love this character as she is.
 
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InfinityCollision

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Yes, 3.02 Paralyzer was too good. We've been over that too, many times over. Doesn't make the current implementation acceptable, from a design or balance standpoint.

I'm going to break a few things down real quick.

She seems to have a great ground game with the gun and SideB, not to mention the former can pressure from afar. Not to mention her speed and dashdance is still on point and recovery seems among the best in the game.
Paralyzer isn't really good at... anything in neutral, really. Startup is reactable (especially charged), uncharged is clankable now, speed's low enough that it's pretty easy to powershield, it's nonthreatening on normal shield (3 frames shieldstun uncharged, 4 charged, ZSS can't chase effectively due to endlag + speed). You can't force approaches effectively with it, it does little or nothing for stage position due to commitment (assuming they don't powershield it), and it doesn't lead into anything. Charged gets followups yeah, but if you get hit by charged paralyzer in neutral then you done ****ed up son. At best you can cover some options with it when they're trying to get onstage, and even then the value of firing a charged shot over maintaining mobility is questionable.

You may say "but you can powershield any projectile". Consider a given projectile's risk/reward ratio, overall commitment, and relative difficulty in powershield timing. Paralyzer performs poorly in all three categories.

A fair portion of the cast can also just SHFF right over it, so that's a thing too. Crouching/crawling under it is also a thing for a few characters.

Plasma whip is also far too heavy on commitment to be a truly good neutral tool. High startup, lots of endlag, initial hits are very CCable, final hit comes very late and is easy to avoid. Any character with upper-caste mobility will make your life very unpleasant if you get too greedy with this move in neutral. Decent punish tool, yes, but that's it.

Her dash dance is great, yeah, but her options out of it are relatively lackluster. She (generally) punishes well, but she struggles to control her space because everything she has is so unsafe. Her grounded normals are unsafe enough to be punishable by tether grabs despite unexceptional range; they're also punishable via the better (top 10ish) non-tether shield grabs with good shield DI. Fair is punishable OoS, bair's only decent raw at kill percents, nair's range sucks now and spaced nair grants a techchase at best. Grab exists, but her throws suck. Speaking of which...

The new grab is a lot safer too and seems much easier to utilize in the neutral.
Safer certainly, easier maybe? I never had problems using the old grab, aside from needing to learn the blind spot on dash grab. An improvement to the character overall, eh... I mean yeah, you don't have ~50 frames of punishable endlag, but ZSS really doesn't want to be that close to her opponent. Never has, despite the aforementioned (inaccurate) PMDT statements about the new grab matching her character archetype. The DD/CQC-based playstyle she's been pushed into is not good for her at all, from a numbers standpoint or a character design standpoint. Even with her relatively good grab range, it's really not that much of an improvement to her neutral game because it's so dangerous for her to occupy that space. She's better off waiting and allowing the opponent to commit first. You could say the same of a lot of characters (defender's advantage is real), but her risk for throwing out a hitbox is disproportionately high for her current mode of operation.

In theory this would maybe be okay from a balance standpoint if she could force approaches (I'd argue that playstyle doesn't fit the character) or at least set up some decent traps (which is what paralyzer previously accomplished), but she can't. So you have this character that struggles to approach, can't force approaches, and possesses a good but nonexceptional punish game with some definite weaknesses (difficulties vs spacies etc).

I've referred to "day 1 hype" regarding ZSS elsewhere, and I stand by that. ZSS looks strong at first glance, but her weaknesses become apparent under scrutiny. I expect her to fall in public perception over the course of this update cycle as these flaws become more widely known and other characters develop. I won't speak to her exact placement in the tiers, but I don't buy any of the talk I've seen (most if not all of which was outside the ZSS boards) of her being high tier or better. I also agree with Shokio that she requires relatively high effort/character knowledge to function effectively at a high level, though I'll note again that she's getting a free pass against a lot of people right now because they don't fully understand the matchup.
 
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Shokio

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Also, I don't really think I agree with shokio's post. Her combo game is about as hard to do as falcon imo, and I don't think she's a particularly difficult character to make work. It requires a lot of character knowledge, but not as much as it did in 3.02
As to where with most of the characters you can grab -> combo -> death, with ZSS, you're pretty much FORCED to get anything started via tech chases. Yes, you can down smash or side-b, which are great combo starters, but opponents have to literally RUN into those moves. She has to work extremely hard to get anything substantial going. The only "easy" route is spacing a down smash, which no top player is just gonna run into. And even then, like I said, her moves are very easily DI'd. It almost feels as if there's a DI multiplier on her aerials (I'm not saying there is, just giving an example of what I mean).

In matter of fact, that's all one has to do if ZSS gets a hold of them - DI away. For EVERYTHING. She no longer has a DI mixup with her throws - she has no combos throws - just hold away. She's about to Nair you? Hold away. Uair? Hold away. You can DI it so well you can fly almost completely horizontally. If you DI a Nair or Uair properly, that's IT, that's the end of the string.

With Falcon (using him as an example since you did), you can DI down and away or just away at 150% but still get knee'd out of a down or up throw regardless. Yeah, his Uairs can be DI'd,but it doesn't matter much since Falcon carries so much momentum he gets from his ground speed into the air. The man covers 1000 ft in a single leap, your DI does not matter. Also, Falcon's combo game is pretty brain-dead. That's not me saying there isn't skill involved, because there is, I'm just saying that he has a lot of confirms and his stuff pretty much works on everybody. A Dair is gonna lead to a knee. Even an aerial Falcon Kick combos into a knee. Up or Down throw goes into a knee. Uair goes into a knee. Nair can go into a knee. Combo'ing with Falcon is pretty simple and straight-forward, and same goes for the majority of the cast.

Just to be clear, I'm not complaining. I'm just illustrating what I mean by ZSS requiring more work for the same or even lesser reward. I'm actually enjoying the fact that ZSS is free-less compared to mostly everyone else, it feels more rewarding when I win and it makes me a better player because I have to think and work harder. I can't just get a grab, down throw, and Fair. Or Up-Throw into Up-Air............I'm looking at you Fox. Still, I am looking at you, still.
 
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Foo

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As to where with most of the characters you can grab -> combo -> death, with ZSS, you're pretty much FORCED to get anything started via tech chases. Yes, you can down smash or side-b, which are great combo starters, but opponents have to literally RUN into those moves. She has to work extremely hard to get anything substantial going. The only "easy" route is spacing a down smash, which no top player is just gonna run into. And even then, like I said, her moves are very easily DI'd. It almost feels as if there's a DI multiplier on her aerials (I'm not saying there is, just giving an example of what I mean).
Eh, I don't think most characters have grab to death anymore. Options out of throws got nerfed for a lot of characters (not as hard as ZSS ofc). But anyway, I agree that her throws are trash. I have since the very start of 3.5. For combo starters, she has MUCH more than dsmash. I watched several of your games and it surprised me how much you used it. I actually favor spaced CC dtilt out of run over dsmash out of run. Blaster (to force your opponent to do something about it, not to combo) into side-b is also a pretty strong combo starter. Perfectly spaced upair has jab as a frame trap on shield and starts combos well. Uptilt can also be used. I've seen lots of good zss players use it a lot, but I'm still figuring out how to use it myself.

As for comboing itself, I think there are more variables than falcon's, but easier inputs, making is about as hard. DIing away is good, but I generally still manage to combo them. I try to wait until the last frame I can to land my upair or nair to get the best positioning. Also, reverse nair is the best nair. Hitting the backhitbox anywhere but the very end will send your opponent forwards, but do to the positioning and hitlag of it, you will have a nice headstart. Other than that, not sure what to say other than "that's not what I've experienced." I've had more problems with downward DI. Nair doesn't combo for free anymore, but zss can still hit some sick combos on a consistent basis. Not quite on falcon's level, but close. Keep in mind, I didn't say her combo game was better than falcon's, just that it's about as hard to do.

Also, faclon in general takes less thought than ZSS because his options are much more straightforward. Falcon can just use safe aerials on shield with an amazing jab and grab and be set, but ZSS has many more options to consider. However, this also makes her a trickier character to play against as well.

@ InfinityCollision InfinityCollision

I feel like you are underselling some options blaster still is electric, and still has 6(?) frames of hitlag on shield uncharged, and maybe more charged(?). Basically, blaster serves a different purpose now. Before, it was to approach, now it is simply to force your opponent to deal with it and set up a slightly better neutral position. If you blaster and they have to shield, jump or swat it away, it gives you a moment to set up better and makes options like side-b a little stronger. Not a *good* projectile per se, but it does things.

I also strongly disagree with side-b being a weak neutral tool. I think it's really good (you can't spam it, but when used sparingly, it's amazing).
1. It works incredibly well with wavebounce
2. You can CC, buy doing so won't let them hit you, and you get some nice damage
3. It EATS shields
4. You can't spot dodge it
5. So much range that it's relatively safe on whiff if they dodge backwards.

Even against faster characters, it's really useful. If they are dashdancing, side-b towards where they would be if they dashed back, and wavebounce will cover their dash forward unless they have falcon or sonic speeds. Again, not exactly bread and butter but tis'a really nice option to keep your opponent of guard and rack up some nice damage and start combos.

As for the upper part of your last paragraph, I agree completely. It's kinda funny. Lunchables player her literally once in a friendly and was like "this character is top 10" Why? "Dude, it's falcon with a gun" lol Yeah, people saying she was top 10 was pretty silly, but I still think she's upper mid. As for her being harder, I'm not sure that's really true. I play Roy and Falcon as well, and I find them harder. I mean, she's certainly not an easier character, but she's not exceptionally difficult. What is exceptional about her is that she takes a LOT of character knowledge to understand exactly all her options. I find most people don't even know all of her moves properties.
 

ph00tbag

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For what it's worth, ZSS took a lot of character specific knowledge to understand in 3.02, as well. Nor was she a particularly good character. There was just a lot more cohesiveness in where she wanted to be, given all of her options. Plasma Whip and Dsmash were more applicable, since ZSS was usually further away.
 
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As for the upper part of your last paragraph, I agree completely. It's kinda funny. Lunchables player her literally once in a friendly and was like "this character is top 10" Why? "Dude, it's falcon with a gun" lol Yeah, people saying she was top 10 was pretty silly, but I still think she's upper mid.
The character is really
really
good.

I mean yeah, she lost her free approach option (Neutral B) from 3.0 to 3.5, but she maintained a great recovery, great mobility, and a reliable grab instead of a garbo tether grab.

I just want:

- An approach option. Preferably the restoration of the Nair. Cause of right now, you literally have to run around the map until your opponent makes a mistake. She has no tools to really take matters into her own hands.
Wow, it's not like other characters have to do the same thing in neutral

oh waaaaaaaaaait?
 

Shokio

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Shokio
Foo said:
Eh, I don't think most characters have grab to death anymore. Options out of throws got nerfed for a lot of characters (not as hard as ZSS ofc). But anyway, I agree that her throws are trash. I have since the very start of 3.5. For combo starters, she has MUCH more than dsmash. I watched several of your games and it surprised me how much you used it. I actually favor spaced CC dtilt out of run over dsmash out of run. Blaster (to force your opponent to do something about it, not to combo) into side-b is also a pretty strong combo starter. Perfectly spaced upair has jab as a frame trap on shield and starts combos well. Uptilt can also be used. I've seen lots of good zss players use it a lot, but I'm still figuring out how to use it myself.
It's all definitely been toned down from 3.0, but they're also definitely still there. Ganon, Link, Toon Link, Ike, Snake, Yoshi, Fox, Wolf, Ness, Falcon, Shiek, Wario, G&W, DK, Olimar with Whites, Pit on floaties, Icy's (of course), Marth and Roy via DI mixups, and maybe more (this is just off the top of my head), can all pretty easily grab-into-death you. And of course this is not including chars who have straight kill throws such as Zard, Zelda, Peach, Lucas, Mewtwo, Squirtle, Ivy, DDD, etc.

Again, it's a lot better than it was in 3.0, but that's not saying much considering just how INSANELY free grab kills were in that iteration lol. Grabs into easy combos or kills are still there, they just don't work at insanely high percents anymore like they used to.

I didn't say Down Smash was her only combo option, I said it was her only "easy" one. Down tilt and Up-Tilt are GREAT for combos, the problem is is that both of those moves are EXTREMELY risky to use, and can't just be thrown out in the neutral game like that. They're waaaaay too punishable: Lots of end-lag and VERY easily CC'd. They're not approach moves whatsoever, nor are the safe enough to just throw out there. Essentially what I'm saying is that you have to use those two moves either after you CC or your opponent whiffs - they have to be punishers, basically.

Remember, we're talking about difficulty and easy of access.
 
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Characters that force interaction and disregard neutral are characters that I don't think should be in the game. Characters that can completely avoid interaction (like fox camping vs slow characters) are also really bad.

Stuff like ZSS 3.02 Neutral B was ********, along with a million other things in 3.02.
 

Shokio

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Characters that force interaction and disregard neutral are characters that I don't think should be in the game. Characters that can completely avoid interaction (like fox camping vs slow characters) are also really bad.

Stuff like ZSS 3.02 Neutral B was ********, along with a million other things in 3.02.
30/41 of the chars should be out of the game then lol. But I think you're using "forced interaction" in a kinda vague way. Technically, ANY projectile forces interaction, if you're within range of course. If Falco shoots a laser, there's forced interaction. If Link throws a boomerang, you're forced to react. Pit's arrows, etc. Even Ike's QD forces interaction. If Luigi shoots a Fireball and wavelands toward you with it, there's forced interaction.

But as we've said multiple times before, we're glad the dash cancel was gone, don't know why you keep talking about that. It WAS silly, we agree. The problem is is that her Nair was rendered unreliable so she was left with nada approach-wise.
 
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Force interaction doesn't necessarily mean making them shield. Forced interaction is **** like 3.02 mewtwo disregarding positional advantage and applying constant hitboxes. Luigis fireball isn't really forcing any big commitment, neither is links bommerang or pits arrow. At least, not their 3.5 counterparts since links boomerang was fixed and pits grounded arrow has more end lag.

You should play Captain Falcon

He has no approach options, instead he makes use of his insane mobility. He teaches you how to not constantly throw out hitboxes in neutral while still being able to win, aka how to not play Project M 3.02 Brothers.
 

Shokio

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Force interaction doesn't necessarily mean making them shield. Forced interaction is **** like 3.02 mewtwo disregarding positional advantage and applying constant hitboxes. Luigis fireball isn't really forcing any big commitment, neither is links bommerang or pits arrow. At least, not their 3.5 counterparts since links boomerang was fixed and pits grounded arrow has more end lag.

You should play Captain Falcon

He has no approach options, instead he makes use of his insane mobility. He teaches you how to not constantly throw out hitboxes in neutral while still being able to win, aka how to not play Project M 3.02 Brothers.
That's a bit more clear. Still a little bit confusing on exactly what you mean though. I think you're saying that forced interaction are things that ignore neutral?
 
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Yeah

if a move forces interaction, you can convert a neutral position into an advantageous position with little to no commitment issues. AKA... every neutral game in 3.02. It was just characters constantly whiffing **** like projectiles that had no commitment and then converting off of them. A lot of those moves have been adjusted to where, yes you can make something out of them, but now you have a penalty for whiffing and/or the move itself just doesn't create as much of a reward.
 

Foo

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You should play Captain Falcon

He has no approach options, instead he makes use of his insane mobility. He teaches you how to not constantly throw out hitboxes in neutral while still being able to win, aka how to not play Project M 3.02 Brothers.
I'm sorry....

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?

Mister I have 5 safe on shield aerials and maybe the best jab in the game for insane frame traps has no approaches? I do play falcon, and neutral is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much easier for him than ZSS. Thinking is really helpful, but you don't really have to a lot of the time. As long as you land an aerial on their shield or non-frameperfect spotdodge/roll, you are safe. Your mixups consistent purely of dashdancing, doing aerials, or doing empty hops/wavedashes/wavelands, etc. I'm not trying to say there isn't a lot to Falcon, but saying a character like falcon can only run around and wait for your opponent to **** up is absurd, unless you count not having perfect positioning as a mistake, and you have perfect reads and patience. Because, that isn't what we are talking about. With ZSS, the mistake you have to wait for is generally a completely whiffed move, tech flub, or something similar. Her truly safe option is spaced bair, but that is incredibly telegraphed. That means you basically just use blaster and dash dance to try to bait and punish.

That's not necessarily a bad neutral, don't get me wrong. But the issue most of us have with it is that it's boring compared to her previous playstyle. We also don't want 3.0 dash cancel back, we just want something like it, a nerfed version. Kinda like how quickdraw, jump out of teleport and etc. were nerfed but not outright removed.

The character is really
really
good.

I mean yeah, she lost her free approach option (Neutral B) from 3.0 to 3.5, but she maintained a great recovery, great mobility, and a reliable grab instead of a garbo tether grab.
Why is she good? You say that, but there's really no point in posting here if you are just going to make baseless assertions, there really isn't much point in posting that. I think I remember you saying she was at least top 10, but why do you say that?

As for the changes, she lost the paralyzer which is the only thing that kept her even or winning in a lot of matchups, namely, swordies. Her recovery is still good, but it did get nerfed. Her new grab is good, but her throws are really bad. She also lost a massive chunk of her combo potential in nair and dsmash.

She is much much worse than she was last patch. That being said, yes, almost all other characters did get nerfed, but zss got nerfed just as hard. She's certainly not a bad character, but she has so many massive weaknesses that she really can't be top 10. Especially since she loses badly to pretty much everyone else in the top 10.

WHY do you think she is top 10? What about her makes her incredibly strong, and explain why that overcomes her weaknesses or why her weaknesses aren't that big of a deal.
 

Shokio

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I've been tellin him for the longest man......I don't get where this "Falcon can't approach" stuff comes from. He can effortlessly cross up shields with Nairs and Dairs, and Knee is completely safe on shield.

*Shrugs*
 

Player-3

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wtf?

falcon cant appraoch lol

he just dash dances

if u guys actually think falcon can approach i'm going to seriously start doubting you
 
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Optimal falcon play is constantly dash dancing and maintaining stage control. Falcons who constantly SHFFL approach are BAD falcons.
 
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ph00tbag

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Lunchables, Player 3, no one uses "approach" to mean "safe, raw jump-in," unless they're under the naïve impression such a thing exists. Foo and Shokio are talking mostly about safe whiff punish attempts that don't require disengagement. In order to whiff punish, ZSS has to either disengage, or do something unsafe.

Granted, this was always the case, but at least in 3.02, she could opt to disengage without giving up space with DC paralyzer, or grab while disengaging.
 
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to whiff punish, zss can just grab lol. She's fast, she should constantly be moving around and if the opponent does something dumb she grabs them.
 

InfinityCollision

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blaster still is electric, and still has 6(?) frames of hitlag on shield uncharged, and maybe more charged(?).
Oops, you're correct. Forgot to factor in electric modifier for shieldstun.

Basically, blaster serves a different purpose now. Before, it was to approach, now it is simply to force your opponent to deal with it and set up a slightly better neutral position. If you blaster and they have to shield, jump or swat it away, it gives you a moment to set up better and makes options like side-b a little stronger. Not a *good* projectile per se, but it does things.
Conceptually I agree, but in practice it's not effective enough to warrant the commitment. It's too easy to mitigate and doesn't yield significant frame advantage to work with, assuming once more that they don't simply PS it.

I also strongly disagree with side-b being a weak neutral tool. I think it's really good (you can't spam it, but when used sparingly, it's amazing).
1. It works incredibly well with wavebounce
2. You can CC, buy doing so won't let them hit you, and you get some nice damage
3. It EATS shields
4. You can't spot dodge it
5. So much range that it's relatively safe on whiff if they dodge backwards.
1. The ability to fine-tune your spacing with a wavebounce is certainly useful.
2. CC punishes are technically possible for the early hits, though unlikely (OoS works just as well). Later they'll just slide into the final hit and that'll break CC.
3. ?
4. Sure you can. Wouldn't be my go-to option for most characters, but it's possible.
5. Sure, but why are they doing that? It's unnecessary.

Even against faster characters, it's really useful. If they are dashdancing, side-b towards where they would be if they dashed back, and wavebounce will cover their dash forward unless they have falcon or sonic speeds.
Have to be careful about this though. You whiff, that's a free punish - Marth can get a dtilt with good timing, maaaybe a grab (think you can buffer spotdodge out of it). Any faster from there just makes it easier to punish. I agree that it has value when used sparingly, but it's still fairly risky even in situations that favor its use.

As for her being harder, I'm not sure that's really true. I play Roy and Falcon as well, and I find them harder. I mean, she's certainly not an easier character, but she's not exceptionally difficult. What is exceptional about her is that she takes a LOT of character knowledge to understand exactly all her options. I find most people don't even know all of her moves properties.
That's kind of it, yeah - you have to understand her options very well. There's also some precise, even impractical stuff that fully opens up her kit, but you're doing more work for fairly average reward. I'm not saying she's super technical, but I do feel that she has to work harder for the same reward.

Optimal falcon play is constantly dash dancing and maintaining stage control. Falcons who constantly SHFFL approach are BAD falcons.
DDing alone only commands so much respect. Even Falcon has to throw out hitboxes sometimes to maintain control of his space and apply pressure to his opponent. Thing is, Falcon can do that - he's got godlike mobility and safe aerials. ZSS' ground movement is still quite good, but her max air speed is considerably lower (still good aerial movement overall, but not godlike) and she lacks his safety on block. She invokes greater risk by putting out hitboxes than most DD-based characters, but her punish game (edit: particularly off her grabs, since you brought that up as I was posting this) is neither strong enough nor consistent enough to balance that out.
 
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ph00tbag

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to whiff punish, zss can just grab lol. She's fast, she should constantly be moving around and if the opponent does something dumb she grabs them.
And that cycles us back to ZSS's lackluster throw game. Contrast with Falcon, whose ability to convert off grab is practically a character unto itself.
 
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