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3.6 Mewtwo Matchup Thread: Where's My Tail Edition

~Frozen~

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Gonna list the ones I disagree with, and what I would change them to. (I assume this is for an MU chart update?):

:fox:: 0
:marth:: +1
:diddy:: +1
:roypm:: 0
:peach:: +2
:gw:: 0
:rob:: +1
:ike:: 0
:squirtle:: +1
:lucario:: +1
:zerosuitsamus:: 0
:pit:: 0
:charizard:: +2
:yoshi2:: 0 (Unsure about this one, but from what little I've played it feels fine)
:ness2:: +2
:popo:: +1
 

Taytertot

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Gonna list the ones I disagree with, and what I would change them to. (I assume this is for an MU chart update?):

:fox:: 0
:marth:: +1
:diddy:: +1
:roypm:: 0
:peach:: +2
:gw:: 0
:rob:: +1
:ike:: 0
:squirtle:: +1
:lucario:: +1
:zerosuitsamus:: 0
:pit:: 0
:charizard:: +2
:yoshi2:: 0 (Unsure about this one, but from what little I've played it feels fine)
:ness2:: +2
:popo:: +1
out of curiosity, since ive been thinking of maybe picking m2 up as a secondary, what makes you feel that marth is +1 for m2 while roy is even?
 

~Frozen~

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Roy's CC Dtilt is a problem for Mewtwo since he relies on a lot on his own to get strings started. As a result you have to play a bit riskier since M2's anti-CC options have less range (Nair, Fair)

Mewtwo's punishes on both are pretty wild, though Roy eats them a little harder should he get grabbed (Uthrow will combo into Fair/Uair from about 0-35)

What tilts the Marth MU in M2's favor is that Marth has very real killing problems vs him. 97 weight + amazing recovery means Marth will be hard-pressed to finish stocks below 130ish when Utilt will KO. If it wasn't for Marth's superior neutral, he'd lose this badly.
 

TheRealSkid

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I kinda want someone to say :toonlink: is a +2 matchup as a joke.
Anyway, if anyone is still left here, are there any thoughts about the :pikachu2:matchup especially against neutral b spammy players?
 

Zach777

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Knock Knock.

Mewtwo: Who's bothering me now?

Toon Link

Mewtwo: Ughhh. Toon Link who?

Toon Link: Toon Links mu for u is +2!

Mewtwo: (Starts sobbing because of the truth this reminded him of)


TheRealSkid TheRealSkid

Happy?
 
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TheRealSkid

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Ooh, found something really interesting.
How do you guys tackle the spammer Marth/Roy matchup?
Not like the always f smashing at all times kind of thing. I'm talking about the kind of marth/Roy main that spaces with fsmash, spaces with side b, counters, never up airs, and edgeguards with a grounded neutral be kind.
The one the frustrates your typical local scrub and that I KNOW I CAN BEAT UURGH
Mainly, my concern is this: how can I get the most out of abusing technically aware but trigger-happy swordsmen?
 

Infinite

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Bait and punish. You are likely playing too aggressively. You can't do what you want when you want, that's how you eat f smashes.

Take a breath and slow your pace. Force him to approach with shadow ball. Cross up Tele fair when he commits to side b. Remember to play the player not the character.

Also, someone who spams counter will help teach you not to over commit.

I only dabble with m2 so someone else may have better advice but this should help get you started.
 

mimgrim

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To bring this to a more relevant thread.

Teleport is probobly the best answer to projectiles in the game. And m2 out punishes toon link. Also your definetly exagerating toon link's movement capabilities. On top of that we do have a decent reflector a good wd and a projectile of our own
Teleport is good, don't get me wrong, but if you get to over reliant on it you willl end up getting punished for it. You also need to be extremely careful when using it against Boomerang because of how it works. Not to mention Tink's quick options to punish Teleport. Teleport is extremely useful but it isn't the end all be all for dealing with projectiles.

Both characters punish each other pretty hard tbh and even if M2 doe out punish Tink its not by a big margin. And Tink has the superior neutral.

You are vastly underestimating Tink movement ability. I use to main this chatacter and watch top Tinks play, I know exactly how fast he can move. He's not Fox or Falcon fast but he is still in the top margin. Frame 3 js, which means quick wd, good dd, not amazing like Fox or Falcon but still good, that only gets better with a bomb in hand, solid air mobility specs complimented by a great agt. He has just the right speed and mobility options and projectiles to run circles around floaties like M2 or Peach or Luigi or the ilk.
 

redcometchar

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To bring this to a more relevant thread.
Thanks.

Of course you can be punished for teleport, but he cant punish your teleport on reaction. On the other hand his boomerang toss is like what 46 frames? Bomb pull is like what 40 frames? Those both sound reactable to me, granted you have the right spacing. On top of that toon links best combo starters are what, bomb, boomerang, grab and nair/ fair right? Bomb toss isn't the optimal punish because of trade risk and resource consumption if he misses the read. Boomerang is too laggy, grab is risky too so that makes his best tools his aerials. If he is doing short hop aerials where m2 could port in then he is open to ground game. On top of that if m2 reads an aerial at low percent m2 can teleport into cc and punish.

Maybe if our only tool in neutral was teleport it would be a bad matchup, but its not. Tl has some good disjoint but he doesnt have the range m2 does. M2 has a float, which he can use to make projectile timing difficult. M2 has a reflector and a projectile too. Sure tl is quick in the air but if your just flying around throwing aerials and bombs your going to get juggled.
 

mimgrim

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Teleport is punishable on reaction though? Teleport is a hood punish on bomb pull though, but the tink shouldn't be puuting himself in that sitiation to begin with. And you still need to be cateful against rang because it does come back.

Toon Links best combo starters are projectiles, dthrow/uthrow (character dependent), dtilt, utilt, bair, and jab. All of which are safe in neutral aside from grab, but jab can lead into it anyway so its k, and one TL has a combo going he can stay on top os M2 pretty well. I honestly don't think you understand how TL works very well or have ever played against even a dostance. Trade risk and misding the "read" (its mote about positioning then it is anticipating when it comes to bomb toss) because rhe Tink should be positioning themselves cotrectly whete thos aren't the issues.

Hover is also useful, yes, but Tink can easily compensate for by changing his angle of rang a bit and throwing bombs better.
 

redcometchar

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Teleport is punishible on reaction? Isn't it like 7 frames of startup 10 frames of travel? Audio cue comes out what frame 7? There is no way thats reactable.

Who cares if rang hits you on the way back? Doesn't it do like what 7 damage? Can toon link actually combo off of returning boomerang in this scenario? Also doesn't the thing follow toon link? Doesnt sound easy to setup.

Your right I don't actually have much tl experience because there aren't any in my region. Doesn't Lunchables go roy for the matchup when he plays frozen?

Tl doesnt pressure m2 any more than m2 pressures tl.

There is no way tl is m2's worst matchup.

Toon link pulls a bomb -> gets faired out of teleport -> eats punish
Toon link throws boomerang -> gets faired out of teleport -> eats punish
Toon link doesnt throw projectlies -> Ground game -> m2 outranges toon link
Toon link gets off suprise projectile -> m2 reflects it

I dont see it. I can see m2 loosing neutral by a small margain. But m2 definitely out punishes tl significantly.

Here is the set where Lunchables switches off of tl to roy against frozen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvSkCiip3Wo
 

RadicalFuzz

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Toon Link's presence stretches across the horizontal length of the stage. He can throw rang while moving, and at several distinct angles that cover space well. It'll clank with shadow ball until it's almost fully charged. His bomb will always hit and nullify shadow ball, even fully charged. Tink's punishes on Mewtwo are objectively stronger than ours on him. He has a very good tool in aerial up-B to kill, he has lots of moves that put floaties into that position to get sweetspotted by up-B, and he has solid combo starters.

Going down your list:
If bomb pull is about 40 frames let's math out the reaction time for a raw teleport punish, assuming the Mewtwo is at the correct spacing and Tink isn't moving whatsoever, so there won't have to be mental calculations that could slow reaction time.
40 frames for pull start. At average human reaction time Mewtwo begins jumpsquat. That average reaction time is 15 frames for a visual stimulus so let's go with that. Jumpsquat is about 5 frames, let's assume 20 frames before y position != 0. Assuming your numbers are correct, teleport takes 17 frames to travel.
That means, assuming average reaction time in a game with as many options as Smash, we can close the distance in 37 frames. Fair will hit on frame 43. I'm not sold on the concept that we can consistently react to that without hindering our ability to play neutral. Also keep in mind the reaction time assumes we're reacting to the first frame of bomb pull, which doesn't have significant visual cue. Punishing bomb pull consistently on reaction seems to require either consistent 12-frame reactions to bomb pull, enhanced reactions by actively looking for bomb pull, or a read on his bomb pull. This is all without considering the possibility of Tink's movement while pulling the bomb or the misspacing that would result in Mewtwo hitting the bomb and exploding it.

Let's say boomerang has 45 frames of startup before the projectile leaves Tink's hand. Using our math from the above point we can get fair out on frame 43. Most of my bomb comments apply here as well. If we don't react quickly enough or we lose a few frames in execution we get hit by point blank boomerang. That's double-digits % and a huge combo opener for Toon Link. The boomerang also doesn't have a notable startup on frame 1, so we're likely not reacting for at least a few frames anyway.

Mewtwo's ground game has to be more intentional than Toon Link's. It's on us to stay in a range where Toon Link doesn't feel safe about using his projectiles. He has faster ground speed, faster air speed, and better range on his aerials (sans back air). We have more range on our grounded moves. Movement is such an important part of a ground game and Tink beats us in the air and on the ground there. His moves are quick and low-risk with good spacing. We have to commit more to get our advantage of range because our moves are slower, grounded moves are almost always slower than SHFL aerials. This is more of a disagreement than a math problem like the above two points, so if you believe that Mewtwo can hold his own against Tink in the ground game don't let me convince you otherwise.

If Tink throws a boomerang and we reflect it he has the time to pull a bomb. If Tink throws a bomb and we reflect it he has the time to throw a boomerang. While not negative for us, this doesn't really fix the problem of Tink having a projectile either onscreen or in his hand.



Also, minor gripe, you say this above and I have a few issues with it.
"Bomb toss isn't the optimal punish because of trade risk and resource consumption if he misses the read. [snipped]On top of that if m2 reads an aerial at low percent m2 can teleport into cc and punish."
Bomb toss is a strong punish and still good on trade. On a clean hit it can lead into many strong moves for either combos or kills such as any aerial, forward smash, aerial up-B. Even on trade Tink can often get something out of it, since he's liable to take less of the hits than the object he's throwing it at once it leaves his hand. Due to his ability to maneuver while pulling a bomb resource consumption isn't an issue unless he has very little stage control. If you're suggesting an autocancel teleport into crouch cancel with the second statement, then I disagree with you on the speed of Tink's aerials. SHFL aerials on Tink are not slow, his fastfall speed is respectable enough to whiff aerials to dissuade teleports and still be able to play a ground game.

Also, your statement that nobody can react to teleport is wrong. I play Mojo's Fox every week or so, and have been for over a year. When he focuses his neutral on reacting to teleport he will up smash me out of teleport every time. Up smash has 6 or 7 frames of startup, and he'll consistently hit me before nair will start. I have to play the ground game, which involves moving out of the effective range for teleport, before he'll stop looking for it. They're assisted reactions, yes, but Mewtwo's other options at that range don't require an immediate response so the mental capacity used to react isn't a huge liability if no teleport comes.
 

Mechaglacier

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I was wondering what exactly is the ike MU? I played it for a bit Friday but I still didn't understand it, so I CPed to sheik for about 3 matches. So far it seemed like I made a good choice going sheik
 

Taytertot

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I was wondering what exactly is the ike MU? I played it for a bit Friday but I still didn't understand it, so I CPed to sheik for about 3 matches. So far it seemed like I made a good choice going sheik
i wouldnt know the mewtwo ike matchup specifically but i can comment on some weaknesses of ike's that may help you to develop strategies in the mu.

first off ike has terrible defensive options, his best grounded gtfo move is probably jab if he is already being pressured and maybe utilt to stuff out an incoming approach (though its super punishable if he whiffs). in the air his best defensive options are either nair or, if youre behind him, then bair but nair is very slow so he has to throw it out early and bair doesnt cover a lot. if he is in the middle of being shield pressured he's got shield grab and nair OoS which are both pretty bad if you can cross up his shield or pressure shield outside his grab range. All in all hes got a lot of moves with slowish startup and that makes it very difficult for ike to get anyone out of his space once they get in.

The next issue ike has is in neutral because ike isnt particularly faster on the ground or in the air (though the momentum he gets from a running jump is a bit impressive). Because of that he has to rely on sideB to close the gap quickly on the ground and punish opponents. With sideB as his only effective way of moving quickly he has to commit to a direction when he wants to move fast and he loses some options that i think arent abused enough. as ike starts to dash from his sideB there is a certain number of frames (i cant recall how many) where ike cant jump cancel and may not be able to use the sideB attack, which means that if youre too close to ike when he starts his sideB he is going to have a hard time effectively pressuring you. So if you are just outside ike's ftilt range and he begins sideB then rushing him with a hitbox will completely stuff out anything ike can hope to accomplish with the sideB.

you may want to consider holding on to shadow ball charges for situations where ike is able to use sideB from farther away so that shadow ball can stuff out his approach as you safely work your way in towards that range right around ike's tipper ftilt where ike cant safely do much of anything. Once youre in that range try to pressure ike with low commitment options or if possible just DD and try to bait something.

that all being said im not sure mewtwo has the exact tools to abuse ike's weaknesses in the same way that say marth might, but i hope this helps a bit. let me know if i need to clarify anything cause i tend to describe things poorly.
 
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Mechaglacier

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i wouldnt know the mewtwo ike matchup specifically but i can comment on some weaknesses of ike's that may help you to develop strategies in the mu.

first off ike has terrible defensive options, his best grounded gtfo move is probably jab if he is already being pressured and maybe utilt to stuff out an incoming approach (though its super punishable if he whiffs). in the air his best defensive options are either nair or, if youre behind him, then bair but nair is very slow so he has to throw it out early and bair doesnt cover a lot. if he is in the middle of being shield pressured he's got shield grab and nair OoS which are both pretty bad if you can cross up his shield or pressure shield outside his grab range. All in all hes got a lot of moves with slowish startup and that makes it very difficult for ike to get anyone out of his space once they get in.

The next issue ike has is in neutral because ike isnt particularly faster on the ground or in the air (though the momentum he gets from a running jump is a bit impressive). Because of that he has to rely on sideB to close the gap quickly on the ground and punish opponents. With sideB as his only effective way of moving quickly he has to commit to a direction when he wants to move fast and he loses some options that i think arent abused enough. as ike starts to dash from his sideB there is a certain number of frames (i cant recall how many) where ike cant jump cancel and may not be able to use the sideB attack, which means that if youre too close to ike when he starts his sideB he is going to have a hard time effectively pressuring you. So if you are just outside ike's ftilt range and he begins sideB then rushing him with a hitbox will completely stuff out anything ike can hope to accomplish with the sideB.

you may want to consider holding on to shadow ball charges for situations where ike is able to use sideB from farther away so that shadow ball can stuff out his approach as you safely work your way in towards that range right around ike's tipper ftilt where ike cant safely do much of anything. Once youre in that range try to pressure ike with low commitment options or if possible just DD and try to bait something.

that all being said im not sure mewtwo has the exact tools to abuse ike's weaknesses in the same way that say marth might, but i hope this helps a bit. let me know if i need to clarify anything cause i tend to describe things poorly.
Is there anything I need to know edgeguarding-wise? So far edgeguarding him seems fine with down smash covering up b and bair for side b
 

Zach777

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You can teleport snap to the ledge to grab the ledge if Ike attempts to sweetspot with up-b.

Just be at the right area on-stage, jump, then teleport diagonally toward ledge and have M2 pivot mid tele to snap onto the ledge.

It's a very underused tech that is super useful for a lot of edgeguard scenarios.
 

RadicalFuzz

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And if you mess up when Ike's using up-B he hits you and you don't automatically die for it! That's a nice quality of life thing.

Keep in mind that shadow ball follows a sinusoidal trajectory, it has waves and crests, and Ike's hurtbox during Quickdraw is a lot like Marth's dash, kinda low to the ground. I've had partially charged shadow balls legit just go over him during Quickdraw and it is frustrating. Fully charged shadow ball is probably big enough to hit him, but just remember that spamming shadow ball is not necessarily going to work against an Ike charging Quickraw at the other side of the stage.
 

Taytertot

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Is there anything I need to know edgeguarding-wise? So far edgeguarding him seems fine with down smash covering up b and bair for side b
well if you feel uncomfortable going offstage then it helps to know that ike doesnt have many good options from the ledge since hes kinda laggy in the air and doesnt have anything safe on shield if your right next to the ledge shielding. though if there are walls for him to sideB wall jump off of then he can wall jump into sideB onstage.
 

Zach777

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Hey guys. I did not know about this tech before and I accidently discovered it.

If you dj and immediately teleport, you won't go into helpless after.

This AT is useful for tele approaching people. Just jump, then quickly dj, then after dj immediately teleport.

This lets you appear very close to the ground to let you attack and land quicker.

If you do the AT fast enough, you can auto cancel teleport from the lower ground onto the raised icon on Bowser's Castle.
 

Zach777

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Yes. But the reason I brought up this AT with dj was because it optimizes tele approaches. Dj causes M2 to stall in midair during its startup allowing you to teleport from a jump much closer to the ground.

Just jumping into tele without the dj in between causes the tele to carry the momentum from the jump. Hovering in between the jump and tele still causes the tele to carry the momentum. Technically hover would carry the momentum lol.
 

Mechaglacier

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I'm back again with more MU probs! I just came back home from the big balc not even making it out of pools because I have very little MU exp. The 3 MUs I wanna become more knowledgeable in are the ZSS, Link, and Falco MU. with ZSS I just can't keep up with her and edgeguarding her is a problem and with link I can't get in without dying off the top from dair. with falco I just seem to have the common problem of dealing with lasers. I probably should've grinded the falco MU with westballz when I had the chance
 

Deathrender

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What are some good things to abuse against Peach? I see u-air doing some work on her and keeping her in the air to be easier than most MUs, but I find it hard to get decent combos started on her and what to take advantage of on each stage (other than uthrow).

In my experience so far, this MU is just a matter of whoever gets hit less after 40%
 

Zach777

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Basically, yeah. This mu is my least favorite after Falco.

Peach is good at getting out of combos but uair still can give her troubles.
Knocking her offstage and chasing her with hover back airs work well though since she does not
move fast enough to be tricky.

Her turnips are just annoying so be careful and try to pick one up to glide toss it back.

Never get CC'd down smashed.

Hope this helps.
 
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Deathrender

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Alright. I'll lab this match-up a bit more and see what else I can exploit. I usually play this MU later in bracket and later in the day so I'm not on top of my game.
 
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