3.6 Mewtwo Matchup Thread: Where's My Tail Edition

[~Frozen~]

sup

+3 on block combo AND kill move that starts on frame 6 and has 5 frames of endlag on HC didn't also need to be as incredibly disjointed as it was. Fair was incredibly stacked in 3.5 and while it has less range in 3.6 it is still a great tool.

 

[Garr]

We already discussed the Fair nerf with Frozen. He said that the range was a little too good.

 

[P-Breaker]

I also noticed that the hitbox on the ground by the Usmash had been removed. They will not go right into the Usmash anymore after getting hit by that ground hitbox.

 

[Zach777]

How do I beat Sonic in neutrals here in 3.6b? Fought a strong Sonic in tournament and he wrecked me by just using his sideb and down b. He said that throwing out nair was the trick to beating Sonic's spin to win. Is that true?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Overuse of nair basically begs your opponent to fish for trades, but if he's just spamming special spins then it'd probably work ok. Pace control is important; Sonic's basic gameplan is to DD-camp you for reactionary techchases and combos; forcing him to play on your terms when you can makes the neutral more manageable. For example, I throw shadow balls relatively often (which is admittedly still not that often) in this matchup because they give me a way to force a reaction and subtly alter the situation without changing my own position.

 

[Tomaster]

some characters i have little to no experience against, but here's my opinion on the matchups that i do know (as an intermediate player)

100:0 (yep) for mewtwo:


65:35 for mewtwo:


60:40 for mewtwo:


55:45 for mewtwo:


Even:


55:45 against mewtwo:


60:40 against mewtwo:


65:35 against mewtwo:


The characters i havent included are characters i dont have enough experience against to make a conclusion.

One thing id like to add is that mewtwo's matchups hugely depend on the stage selection. For example, fox is a bad matchup but he gets wrecked on dreamland and fd.

Edit: Looking back this list is kinda flawed.. I don't feel like fixing it tho :^/

 

[InfinityCollision]

I disagree with most of that list. Not just in how good or bad a particular matchup is; his matchup spread isn't that wide on either end, and several characters are simply on the wrong side of the chart (Dorf, Snake, Wolf say hi).

No, don't ask me for numbers. Focus on solutions, let your opponent worry about the rest. Look at Ganondorf for example. He's slow, you're fast, he has no way to keep you cornered. Don't get hit. Even if you trade it's not that bad for you, and he should die much earlier than you.

But seriously, don't get hit.

 

[Garr]

Fox 40-60? Yeah, no...

 

[Tomaster]

his matchup spread isn't that wide on either end

Yea you're right about that, i made some adjustments. I think jiggs is the only character that is not close at all to even, mewtwo wrecks her.

Fox 40-60? Yeah, no...

On FD or Dreamland it's in mewtwo's favor, otherwise it's very much in fox's favor imo. This is just based on my experience.

 

[InfinityCollision]

FD is overrated. Wide, flat stage. Fox can DD and laser to his heart's content and you've traded off half your movement options for a low percent punish you could've also gotten on Dreamland, DP, PS2, Norfair, etc, nevermind any platform traps you trade off that diversify your punish options without sacrificing any percent. Linearizing Mewtwo, one of the more unpredictable members of the cast, only works to your advantage if you were playing in a linear manner from the start.

 

[xXDarkRisingXx]

FD is overrated. Wide, flat stage. Fox can DD and laser to his heart's content and you've traded off half your movement options for a low percent punish you could've also gotten on Dreamland, DP, PS2, Norfair, etc, nevermind any platform traps you trade off that diversify your punish options without sacrificing any percent. Linearizing Mewtwo, one of the more unpredictable members of the cast, only works to your advantage if you were playing in a linear manner from the start.

FD is not that bad. If it were melee lasers, it would be a problem. He can't force you to approach for s*** with one damage. Mewtwo is capable of walling out Fox if spaced correctly. not to mention we have auto kill combos on him. honestly on final destination it's an even match up. both characters combo each other hard. it's all on who has the momentum first.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I said overrated, not bad.

Laser damage always matters. Free, no-risk damage that clears out his stale move queue should absolutely be a concern to you, especially if you're going to move to a wide, flat stage where he has more opportunity to use them.

 

[xXDarkRisingXx]

I said overrated, not bad.

Laser damage always matters. Free, no-risk damage that clears out his stale move queue should absolutely be a concern to you, especially if you're going to move to a wide, flat stage where he has more opportunity to use them.

True. I see your point.

 

[Garr]

Something needs to be done about Fox's laser camping. In those stages, there's zero commitment to it and it gets free damage.

 

[xXDarkRisingXx]

Something needs to be done about Fox's laser camping. In those stages, there's zero commitment to it and it gets free damage.

I agree but you gotta remember it is only do one damage. and Mewtwo has ways to keep Fox back if you play patient enough.Fox punishes us very hard. but we also punish him extremely hard as well. the lasers are not an issue against us. the issue is his pressure. we let him get into our space, it's hard to come off.it's honestly all about neutral and a lot of baiting if you were to take them to FD.

 

[Garr]

Falco uses lasers for control and a means to make up for his lackluster speed. Wolf uses his lasers similarly, but they're less spammy and you can actually clank them. Fox doesn't need laser camping when he's that fast, and the fact that laser camping takes no commitment encourages a super lame playstyle that is only justified "because Melee". I appreciate the stupid amount of damage being removed in the transition, but even 1 damage per shot is a problem when it's lagless and can't be shot twice in one SH.

You can only hover above the lasers for so long, not to mention they can simply just full hop lasers to hit you, and camping the ledge limits your options. I'm speaking in the case that a Fox player will do nothing but laser camp because it scales damage for every second you're not approaching. The only way to get a clean punish on him is to teleport in with a Fair right as he SH's, which is a very small window, even smaller if the Fox prefers to fastfall single laser. Pressure may be a problem in the MU, but he should not be a problem from far away, either.

 

[X Riptide X]

Spacing is really important in the spaces matchup (pun not intended) as is always the case with M2. One of your biggest advantages against Fox is your disjoint, considering how all their moves not only have less range, but also lack disjoints. WD grab punishes seem to be a decent option for me with the Foxes I've faced so far.

On another note, what are ways I can deal with FE characters, Lucario, and Squirtle? I particularly hate the Squirtle matchup, because most of Mewtwo's attacks are either too slow or too weak to counter his Side B's armor. Big stages, which often give Mewtwo a mobility advantage, have, in my case, done the exact opposite in the Squirtle MU. I've tried occasionally to punish side b with a fully charged Shadow Ball, only to have the attack whiff right over him. I did a bit of experimenting and found that even a fully charged Shadow Ball often misses Squirtle, even when he's standing.

Also, down throw.

 

[RadicalFuzz]

I'm pretty experienced in the Squirtle matchup, usually grands of the local weekly, and it feels mostly even. If he's approaching with side B then you can just fullhop and hover. When he comes out of the move, or is grounded, come down with a dair. I only use fully charged shadow ball in a tech situation or if I'm reading a sling jump (the RAR that goes super far). On the bright side Squirtle has to approach, and while his main approaches are high speed his hitboxes are very small. He can fullhop fade-away bubble to fakeout an approach and condition you to not contest him there, but the reward is pretty low. Our down tilt is good, and remember to angle forward tilt downwards unless you're trying to swat him out of the sky. Edgeguarding him requires going out there, he can sweetspot past down smash, and you can either try for the bair into stage spike or offstage hover nair shenanigans.

 

[Darkoness21]

Edgeguarding him requires going out there, he can sweetspot past down smash, and you can either try for the bair into stage spike or offstage hover nair shenanigans.

Grabbing ledge also works too!

 

[Tomaster]

here's a topic for discussion: Is Mewtwo vs Puff a 100-0 matchup for Mewtwo?

 

[InfinityCollision]

It wasn't even 100-0 in 3.0, it certainly isn't now.

I'm pretty experienced in the Squirtle matchup, usually grands of the local weekly, and it feels mostly even. If he's approaching with side B then you can just fullhop and hover.

Squirtle shouldn't be approaching with side-b in the first place.

On the bright side Squirtle has to approach

That's about as much of an upside as Falcon "having to approach". A good Squirtle is going to try to space you out, play evasively, and use their hitboxes in a way that's very difficult to punish.

It's probably slight advantage Mewtwo, but I'd chalk a lot of that up to Mewtwo's resilience and strong punish game. Trying to hit a good Squirtle in neutral can be a hellish experience.

 

[Tomaster]

It wasn't even 100-0 in 3.0, it certainly isn't now.

wanna explain? Because this answer doesn't really do anything.

 

[InfinityCollision]

100-0 implies that it is functionally impossible for one side to ever win if the two are of approximately even skill. A matchup where one side literally cannot touch the other in any way that matters. Puff can still do things to Mewtwo, it's just really really hard and the Puff player is better off playing a different character.

 

[Tomaster]

100-0 implies that it is functionally impossible for one side to ever win if the two are of approximately even skill. A matchup where one side literally cannot touch the other in any way that matters. Puff can still do things to Mewtwo, it's just really really hard and the Puff player is better off playing a different character.

what can puff do to mewtwo tho? She cant outzone him if the mewtwo player isnt worse than the Puff player, she cant rest him unless she gets reads which if she does consistently, the Puff player is probably better than the Mewtwo player. She pretty much just relies on getting that lucky fair, nair, or bair to do any damage, but if the players are of equal skill she's pretty much never gonna win like that unless the mewtwo player loses focus which doesn't count imo..

 

[InfinityCollision]

I did say it was hard.

Turn this around for a minute: can you demonstrate that it is actually impossible for Puff to do anything against Mewtwo? Anything at all? That is the basis of a 100-0 matchup.

For reference, a common example of a truly unwinnable matchup is Sheik v Ganondorf in Brawl (Dorf arguably has a few of them). Played correctly Ganondorf literally cannot hit her. At all.

 

[Tomaster]

I did say it was hard.

Turn this around for a minute: can you demonstrate that it is actually impossible for Puff to do anything against Mewtwo? Anything at all? That is the basis of a 100-0 matchup.

For reference, a common example of a truly unwinnable matchup is Sheik v Ganondorf in Brawl (Dorf arguably has a few of them). Played correctly Ganondorf literally cannot hit her. At all.

A 100-0 matchup isnt a matchup where one character cant touch the other, it's a matchup where if both players are of equal skill level and neither is playing worse than usual, one character is always gonna win (that's my definition at least). unfortunately frozen and Hbox didnt meet in bracket in Paragon so we couldnt see the best players of each character battle it out. That said, my opinion is mostly based on theory, however i do have some examples that support it. 1) Frozen 4 stocking Jaden's Puff in the one game i saw Jaden use her vs froz. 2) me beating a Puff player who was waay better than me at the time. I was new to mewtwo yet i was able to beat an experienced Puff player who was way better than me.

Of course this doesnt prove anything, but it's one of reasons why i think it's an impossible MU for puff. The other obviously being how hopeless the matchup looks on paper.

 

[Garr]

Alright, who knows how to fight DK? Everyone who thought he was bad, y'all are dead wrong. DI reads on cargoes kill you at 90% from Fair and Uair. Can't shadowball camp because dash attack armors through it. Also, it sucks to stay in shield against him with his godlike frame 3 jab that either combos into grabs or an aerial. Also, DI'ing in on Nair will just get you hit with another one and potentially dead, but DI'ng away on small stages will kill you anyway. By the way, you can't combo break out of his juggles. The moves have a stupid amount of hitstun, so he only had to win neutral twice: one to get me to 60%, the other for death.

On the other hand, Mewtwo's lucky to get that dirty ape off the ground, and even then you'll hardly finish it with taking a stock. Dair's too slow to edgeguard consistently, and even if you Bair him, you'll have to do it over and over until he's at 140%, but LET'S JUST HOPE YOU DON'T MESS UP A SINGLE ONE LOLOLOL.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Alright, who knows how to fight DK? Everyone who thought he was bad, y'all are dead wrong. DI reads on cargoes kill you at 90% from Fair and Uair. Can't shadowball camp because dash attack armors through it. Also, it sucks to stay in shield against him with his godlike frame 3 jab that either combos into grabs or an aerial. Also, DI'ing in on Nair will just get you hit with another one and potentially dead, but DI'ng away on small stages will kill you anyway. By the way, you can't combo break out of his juggles. The moves have a stupid amount of hitstun, so he only had to win neutral twice: one to get me to 60%, the other for death.

On the other hand, Mewtwo's lucky to get that dirty ape off the ground, and even then you'll hardly finish it with taking a stock. Dair's too slow to edgeguard consistently, and even if you Bair him, you'll have to do it over and over until he's at 140%, but LET'S JUST HOPE YOU DON'T MESS UP A SINGLE ONE LOLOLOL.

Dash attack for DK is abit of a commitment and you can easily bait him to approach with dash attack with a shadowball and command grab him into some HC Uair strings for some decent percents, possibly enough to lead into a stock. The big thing is his grab and recovery. Tilts are an issue as well but they're alittle slow so they're easier to punish. Camping ledge at higher percents can be pretty safe since at 100%+ you can cancel get up jump into disable though it's not full proof for obvious reasons, still something to keep in mind if he's coming in with a dash attack for whatever reason. Also it acts as an edgeguard tool. Doesn't clank and it's a full disjoint, not to mention the obvious ability to just turn it around at your whim. Not quite the range of bair but it's a decent substitute depending on the situation. Especially if you woop to ledge and they start to recover to the base of the stage rather than high or try and hit you out of invincibility by going low. That being said ledge get up jump hover uair is very much an option to cover him going high as it will more than likely hit him from below, which is where he's most vulnerable to my knowledge.

Staying in shield sucks for mewtwo in general, so just 3.5 or 3.6 EC/AC Tele if you're on a stage that allows it. Dry teleports aren't safe for the obvious hang time in the air and the loss of jump.

Also I guess I'll just post here that the 3.5 telehovers that had you just line up with the edge of a platform rather than actually clip it still work, as a means of refreshing DJ and airdodge, but hover cannot be accessed so use that how you will. Keep in mind you can teleport to the ledge, EC that, then waveland back on for a command grab on the inevitable punish attempt on relief of pressure as it creates the illusion of being put in a bad position when really from the ledge of most stages mewtwo is capable of at the very least teleporting to another platform with no type of cancellation of lag, or to center stage as an AC which only has like, 5 or 6 frames of lag. If you're on Green Hill Zone or Wario Ware, first of all it's DK, you're a ****ing idiot for letting him take you there, or choosing the stage in the first place, but yeah it more than likely won't work out for you.

So basically don't get hit.

 

[Kapapanerp]

I know we touched on the zelda matchup a while back, but has much changed in 3.6? I feel like she's great at stuffing our approaches and has some good combo setups on us, or maybe my DI just sucks =P. Thoughts?

 

[RadicalFuzz]

The only "trick" to DIing cargo throws is to DI in such a way that you won't die if you're wrong, if the option presents itself. At 100+% you're gonna die anywhere on stage, but at 65% near ledge so long as you don't DI in when he throws you offstage his followup won't kill you. It helps a lot if you're familiar with the DK player and know where they are with regards to their "wine in front of me" level. I think the matchup is good for Mewtwo because of DK's extremely linear recovery and DK's pure size & fall speed. Fast-ish faller with a huge hurtbox for us to fair all day. He doesn't have a good way of getting down onto the ground. Honestly I have more trouble with his really good dash dance than trying to combo break his juggles. If you're really desperate and you still have hover you can try to hover->immediate airdodge to dodge an aerial that would've killed. If you get hit out of your hover really early (feels like 6 frames or so) you keep your DJ so it's actually not that committal. As for edgeguarding him think of it as edgeguarding Falcon. He's either gonna try to sweetspot ledge or go as far onstage as possible so he doesn't have to use up B. Dair is hard to time, but his vertical ascent is constant once he starts his up B, and it flat-out kills him if he's not already above stage because his recovery has such poor vertical distance, so that's a plus.

I told him how to get around Squirtle's side-B approach because he asked. Yes it's a bad approach, but knowing it's bad isn't going to help if he isn't already punishing it.

As for grabbing ledge against Squirtle, I'm usually too slow to get a solid consistent punish, but that is definitely a solid option.

 

[Garr]

The only "trick" to DIing cargo throws is to DI in such a way that you won't die if you're wrong, if the option presents itself. At 100+% you're gonna die anywhere on stage, but at 65% near ledge so long as you don't DI in when he throws you offstage his followup won't kill you. It helps a lot if you're familiar with the DK player and know where they are with regards to their "wine in front of me" level. I think the matchup is good for Mewtwo because of DK's extremely linear recovery and DK's pure size & fall speed. Fast-ish faller with a huge hurtbox for us to fair all day. He doesn't have a good way of getting down onto the ground. Honestly I have more trouble with his really good dash dance than trying to combo break his juggles. If you're really desperate and you still have hover you can try to hover->immediate airdodge to dodge an aerial that would've killed. If you get hit out of your hover really early (feels like 6 frames or so) you keep your DJ so it's actually not that committal. As for edgeguarding him think of it as edgeguarding Falcon. He's either gonna try to sweetspot ledge or go as far onstage as possible so he doesn't have to use up B. Dair is hard to time, but his vertical ascent is constant once he starts his up B, and it flat-out kills him if he's not already above stage because his recovery has such poor vertical distance, so that's a plus.

I told him how to get around Squirtle's side-B approach because he asked. Yes it's a bad approach, but knowing it's bad isn't going to help if he isn't already punishing it.

As for grabbing ledge against Squirtle, I'm usually too slow to get a solid consistent punish, but that is definitely a solid option.

I played this guy for over a year now, but I was awful back then.

The way he tries getting out of combos is to hit with Fair, Nair, or Dair on the way down, and shielding won't work because all those moves have insane stun. Given that DK's hands and feet have no hurtboxes (this is true, I swear!), it can't be hard to punish without trading, even with our best disjoints.

Regarding combos, sometimes he doesn't need a DI read to kill. I got cargo Uthrow'd into Uair once and died at 90% lol. Just don't get grabbed at all XD.

I played him a little more after I made the post, and here's a couple things I found out about the MU that made it a lot easier. If you Dtilt and it sends him offstage, Dair is a legit finisher. Missing the meteor cancel means death for DK, and in some cases, even hitting the meteor cancel won't save him. I think you can also footstool, but I need to experiment with that a little more.

 

[RadicalFuzz]

Footstool is more consistent than dair in that it sends him a set distance, so that's a technically better option. It's actually not too hard to land against DK since he HAS to jump to gain significant vertical height. After dtilt for a more consistent punish you can float upair to get him offstage further and force an up B, or RAR bair to knock him further.

Yeah sometimes upthrow upair just kills you and life is not fun.

You don't need to wait for him to come down on you with an aerial. From what you're saying where they're safe on shield he must be doing them very late. If that's not the case then you're late. DK falling with a fair isn't unpunishable. But even then, don't wait, just jump/hover and upair. If it gets the noodle hitbox, where it doesn't send him very far, you can fair him. His hitstun animation has him nearly vertical, which is perfect for our fair strings.

If you have a lot of experience with the player that increases your ability to successively read him. It's actually really satisfying to deny him a finisher out of cargo throw three times in a row because you're just that good (at reading, not at avoiding grabs lol)

 

[InfinityCollision]

Threw together a quick matchup chart to gauge my own impressions of where things stand right now.

I've included "easy" and "hard" categories between even and slight advantage/disadvantage, respectively, to denote matchups that I think could fall to either side with continued meta development and/or demand significant additional effort/precision from one player or the other at top level. Matchups at either extreme are considered bad enough to warrant the relevant party switching to a secondary.

Mewtwo loses badly:

Mewtwo loses slightly:

"Hard" even matchup:

Even:

"Easy" even matchup:

Mewtwo wins slightly:

Mewtwo wins hard:

Thoughts, questions?

Not sure I agree with myself on a few of these just yet, but that's part of the exercise.

 

[Kaosxxxx]

http://youtu.be/Oel57gSyN0Q
Use this as your shirk reference. Oats is on ou SoCal PR and he's beaten IPK on several occasions. I just played the neutral and got plenty of down tilt follow ups.

 

[Kaosxxxx]

Threw together a quick matchup chart to gauge my own impressions of where things stand right now.

I've included "easy" and "hard" categories between even and +1/-1, respectively, to denote matchups that I think could fall to either side with continued meta development and/or demand significant additional effort/precision from one player or the other at top level. Matchups at either extreme are considered bad enough to warrant the relevant party switching to a secondary.

Mewtwo loses badly:

Mewtwo loses slightly:

"Hard" even matchup:

Even:

"Easy" even matchup:

Mewtwo wins slightly:

Mewtwo wins hard:

Thoughts, questions?

Not sure I agree with myself on a few of these just yet, but that's part of the exercise.

I have yet to lose to a toon link. Our PR. Member Tristan's rule has a losing record against me. And he mains toon link

 

[InfinityCollision]

Wouldn't really consider that set vs Oats representative of either character's potential or how to play the matchup properly. Your limited use of hover/HC was clear even to non-Mewtwo players, your use of teleport is very rudimentary and predictable, combos often overextended such that you couldn't set up edgeguards or kill confirms, incomplete use of available ledge options, etc. Rewatching it from Sheik's perspective, Oats' grab game is very unoptimized. He didn't seem to fully understand his options out of any given throw (dropped followups or overextended several times), nor did he make any real use of his mixup potential (which Mewtwo has to respect due to hurtbox size, holding down means you'll eat followups from both dthrow and bthrow). No use of fthrow at the ledge, no use of crouch dashing or pivots to extend or improve his DD game, etc. He was also far too content to shield options he could have whiff punished (hello fsmash).

You have no footage that I can find vs TR, so I can't critique that. I may move him down to slight loss eventually, but Tink makes Mewtwo work very, very hard when playing to the matchup. Mewtwo has to take more risks, and more significant risks at that, to make anything happen on his end.

 

[Garr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kwfWdCCdUw

vs Meta Knight. Very inexperienced with this MU, but it feels hard. Not as hard as the Links, but like, "forcing you to win neutral without d-tilt" hard.

 

[RadicalFuzz]

I use forward smash way too much for my own good, so the local MK player is too cautious. I find that the triangular platform layout benefits MK, he gets so much pressure from being under you, but Delfino's or even Distant Planet he has a harder time covering. In addition to that, the ceilings are higher, making his kills harder. He's easy to gimp if you can hit him out of a special, but he has a lot of ability to mixup his recovery.

 

[X Riptide X]

Aside from the very general concepts of zoning and spacing, I have pretty much no idea how to handle the lucario matchup. Supposedly, it's not as hard of a matchup as others, but I have a lot of difficulties dealing with his pressure and combo game. Advice?

 

[RadicalFuzz]

Don't get hit. His main tools in neutral are his dash dance, his dash attack, and enhanced down-B. Our longer roll is nice-ish in that if he doesn't read it we get further away, but if he does read it he has a larger window to punish. Down throw you'll want to DI away, and up throw you'll want to DI in. I believe he gets either nair or uair off of bad DI on either, but I'm not sure. His recovery can be tricky to edgeguard purely because of his options, but if he doesn't have aura to cancel his up-B with then it's very Sheik-esque. Take ledge, wait for him to up-B onto stage, punish endlag. Rinse and repeat.