Guide 3.6 Match-Up Thread

[bubbaking]

A lot of MUs did indeed change a lot. Of course, a better glide made all of our MUs better. I know L_Pag hates what's happened to DDD now, and from what I've heard, Ripple does as well, but I'm not certain about him. L_Pag, though, has told me personally how upset he is with the dair change. That dair did indeed make life kinda hard for Zard since it was one of the biggest things standing between us and a successful juggle on him. If it's been noticeably nerfed, then there's no doubt in my mind that MU is better for us. His Inhale got hit too, which also helps us.

Sheik is another MU that must have gotten much better for us. Bthrow > tipper usmash KO at 100 is no longer a thing! ^__^

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

What's the Squirtle and Yoshi MU like for you guys?

 

[bubbaking]

Squirtle, IMO, is super easy. We heavily out-range him and his armor has been nerfed quite a bit. Almost all of his approaches can be stuffed with a simple jab. He's light, so he's easy to kill, and he's not that hard to edgeguard either. We can dtilt his upB if he doesn't perfectly sweetspot it. Probably a +2 for Zard or something.

Yoshi, I feel, is kinda tough. We out-range him most of the time, but he can DJ armor through most of our moves to punish us. It's very hard to juggle Yoshi, as he can DJ armor, downB, sideB, and even B-reverse command grab to mix up his descent and get the drop on us, but Yoshi can actually kinda juggle us with eggs and uair pokes. Yoshi can also combo us fairly hard off of his grabs. Both of these characters live forever, but being floaty, Zard is susceptible to dying early off the top from usmash, uair, or downB. Yoshi just lives forever no matter what, and Zard doesn't exactly have the best kill moves for him. Edgeguarding Yoshi is also difficult because of the same tools he has to avoid juggles, whereas Zard really has to look out for eggs while recovering, since they combo into Yoshi's aerials. However, what I'd say I hate most about the Yoshi MU is his downB. That move hits as fast as a jab, so it can be done quickly out of a CC, and it threatens to poke anything other than a full shield. You jab or DA him below high %'s and he CC's it? You're gonna get downB'd. He just tapped your shield with some safe DJC pressure? You're gonna get downB'd. If you're lucky and it hits the center of your shield to prevent a poke, then the stars will probably poke and keep you from punishing and now you have to fight without a shield for a while. That also leads me to my next point: shield pressure. It's awkward to safely pressure Yoshi's shield without receiving a tongue, head, or foot in the face, but Yoshi can pressure us pretty well and our upB is not as good of an OoS option as I used to think long ago. This MU is probably a 0 or -1 for Zard.

Edit: @ AuraMaudeGone , is there a thread where we can directly talk about your 3.6B Community MU Chart?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Squirtle, IMO, is super easy. We heavily out-range him and his armor has been nerfed quite a bit. Almost all of his approaches can be stuffed with a simple jab. He's light, so he's easy to kill, and he's not that hard to edgeguard either. We can dtilt his upB if he doesn't perfectly sweetspot it. Probably a +2 for Zard or something.

Yoshi, I feel, is kinda tough. We out-range him most of the time, but he can DJ armor through most of our moves to punish us. It's very hard to juggle Yoshi, as he can DJ armor, downB, sideB, and even B-reverse command grab to mix up his descent and get the drop on us, but Yoshi can actually kinda juggle us with eggs and uair pokes. Yoshi can also combo us fairly hard off of his grabs. Both of these characters live forever, but being floaty, Zard is susceptible to dying early off the top from usmash, uair, or downB. Yoshi just lives forever no matter what, and Zard doesn't exactly have the best kill moves for him. Edgeguarding Yoshi is also difficult because of the same tools he has to avoid juggles, whereas Zard really has to look out for eggs while recovering, since they combo into Yoshi's aerials. However, what I'd say I hate most about the Yoshi MU is his downB. That move hits as fast as a jab, so it can be done quickly out of a CC, and it threatens to poke anything other than a full shield. You jab or DA him below high %'s and he CC's it? You're gonna get downB'd. He just tapped your shield with some safe DJC pressure? You're gonna get downB'd. If you're lucky and it hits the center of your shield to prevent a poke, then the stars will probably poke and keep you from punishing and now you have to fight without a shield for a while. That also leads me to my next point: shield pressure. It's awkward to safely pressure Yoshi's shield without receiving a tongue, head, or foot in the face, but Yoshi can pressure us pretty well and our upB is not as good of an OoS option as I used to think long ago. This MU is probably a 0 or -1 for Zard.

Edit: @ AuraMaudeGone , is there a thread where we can directly talk about your 3.6B Community MU Chart?

Thanks for the write up, and definitely. Here

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I know a few Squirtle things. What can a Zard possibly do in response to Bubble? Its safe on shield (-10 at that spacing...), can never be crouch cancelled/asdi'd down, sets up a tech chase (Squirtle is godlike at tech chasing if Squirtle mains ever put in the work for reaction tech chases). The only downsides are if you hit just the last hitbox its only does 3 percent, kind of slows Squirtle down because its kind of slow, is transcendent (thankfully you can't clang, but also projectiles and moves like Marth dtilt can hit you before the final hit reaches you). Zard has none of these. Ftilt/dtilt will get hit by bubble well before Squirtle is threatened, Zard is slow in the air so he can't leap over it like a Fox could, no projectiles to poke with, takes away a solid portion of almost any heavy neutral (cc). Sure, you can shield and I don't get anything off it, but it forces you to respect my space, which I am constantly moving and changing where exactly that is.

I would also like to see how Bair stacks up v common Zard neutral tools. During Bair the tail is intangible during the strong hit. Also, a Slingjump (his rar that gets boosted super far) full hop fastfall ac dair (thats a mouthful) probably beats everything Zard has except dd back and poking before Squirtle can liftoff (as he goes sliding pretty far during jump squat). That last part shouldn't happen often if the Squirtle forces you to respect his ever changing space with Bubble and masks some of the sliding forward by doing it right after a long wd back (so much of the initial dash + jump squat is trying to overcome the wd back momentum). During the entirety of dair hitboxes, his tail is intangible. At full hop height, dair probably clips the wings in up smash and jab, and the head in up angled forward tilt and grab. It can be ac'd, so its safe on shield (thank you crossups) and can combo into dtilt (thank you frame 3 moves). Oh, and when we cross up and you shield, we are facing you because of slingjump, so we can space a dtilt which:
1. Catches anything grounded, like rolls (maybe spot dodge, but I doubt that) or wd OoS
2. Dtilt is safe on shield by itself, not to mention you still can't grab and dtilt puts us really low anyways
3. Combos if it catches you
4. Has an intangible tail, so up b OoS isn't going to help

We can also up tilt, which is frame 5 and catches most aerials OoS, isn't too unsafe on shield, and combos pretty well. Or we could just go ahead and grab because you are paralyzed in fear of the little turtle.

I would love to see this mu played out as it seems really interesting. Squirtle doesn't get much off of throws, especially on fatties. Down throw shouldn't kill you guys till like 160 or later from center stage of BF. Squirtle's like to gimp, so I imagine a slow moving recoverer like you guys probably doesn't fair too well. Squirtle's tech roll is absolute garbage, so maybe down throw can destroy Squirtle? I know its not the most lag-free of throws, but it shouldn't be too hard to just tech chase Squirtle to oblivion.

 

[bubbaking]

If Bubble is truly transcendent, then couldn't Zard just jab it?

IIRC, Zard's wing has a small bar along his middle wing bone as its only hurtbox. Otherwise, the move's completely disjointed. Also, I think you are completely underestimating Zard's dtilt.

Every hitbox except the one closest to Zard's body is DISJOINTED. Also, I think you are sorely overestimating Bubble simply because it's safe. -10 means it's completely safe when spaced, but it also means that it's a free out from shield pressure once it's shielded, and it also means it's completely on you to space it well or risk being shieldgrabbed by Zard's huge grab range. Also, this is just a guess here, but I suspect that you're wrong about saying that Zard can't hop over it. Zard's SH dair ACs, so I'd imagine that Squirtle could get hit by SH dair or RAR nair or delayed SH fair. I'm also assuming that you're talking about grounded bubble because it has the most range (correct me if I'm wrong).

I actually don't see how Squirtle's bair could challenge any of Zard's hitboxes, especially his jab or RAR nair. The tail's invincible, but most of Zard's moves are bigger than Squirt's whole body. If anything, Squirt would have to sneak it in between Zard's attacks or tack it on top of a connected Withdraw bounce or something. I also don't see how your dair would beat Zard's jab (remember that move is disjointed) or usmash. "Clipping the wings" isn't enough. I do agree that crossing up our shields into stuff is probably super safe for you, especially since nair can't hit Squirt too easily if he's right behind Zard.

Definitely not paralyzed in fear of Squirt because I still think this is one of our easier MUs since we just outrange you so hard.

Tbh, I haven't played this MU out at high level for a while (since I played Jewchainz in 3.5), but I doubt anything in the MU has changed much. If anything, Squirt ended up worse off with all of his nerfs. I remember jab, and most of our large moveset in general, really giving Squirt a hard time when he tried to approach. It shuts down so much, and Squirtle gets comboed hard.

 

[JOE!]

Jab beats all Squirtle Armor past like 20%.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Yeah, a lot of that makes sense. I was banking on the wing hurtbox being easier to hit. Just tested some stuff. Bair doesn't beat jab. Zard can jump over bubble and hit Squirtle with Fair and rar Nair, but it depends on the timing. If Squirtle can get to frame 10 of bubble before Zard jumps, he should be safe from anything.

Now for the positives I found. First bubble completely outranges Zard dtilt, so I wouldn't need to worry too much of that move in general I don't think, unless its used against wd in dtilt/grab/ftilt, which should never be used against someone with big hitboxes like Zard. I forgot about it, but watergun can be used to poke and annoy vs jabs and other anti airs. Also, the only change that could affect this matchup is nair going to light armor. Nothing else was nerfed for Squirtle that really mattered. Down smash got nerfed, but I never was a fan of the move anyways.

 

[Zefklop]

I know a few Squirtle things. What can a Zard possibly do in response to Bubble?

aerial bubbles are absurdly safe. From the ground, a short hop reverse nair or a perfectly spaced/timed bair can beat it if you read it.

(I haven't tested grounded bubbles, it should be less op given that he can't drift back while the bubles are still there moving towards zard)

Also I remember doing dthrow jab and hitting squirtle out of all his techrolls, but I need to confirm that LOL.

 

[Taytertot]

Ive tried to bring this up in the roy boards but only got one response which i replied to and didnt get answer back so id like to ask here on the zard boards. the community MU chart says that zard vs roy is +2 in zard's favor and im wondering if someone can tell how thats the case because i have always felt that it was in roy's favor.

 

[Life]

Ive tried to bring this up in the roy boards but only got one response which i replied to and didnt get answer back so id like to ask here on the zard boards. the community MU chart says that zard vs roy is +2 in zard's favor and im wondering if someone can tell how thats the case because i have always felt that it was in roy's favor.

Charizard matches Roy in movement speed and reach (disjoint or no disjoint--same reason Sheik's back air is so good, having disjoint doesn't matter when you'll whiff if they don't throw out the move, and many of Zard's moves work the same way), combos him easily, edgeguards him fairly easily, and has a good enough recovery to get around anything Roy can dish out. I'm honestly not sure what Roy's supposed to do in this matchup unless he's winning neutral a lot, i.e. being a better player in the first place.

Marth at least has substantially better edgeguarding on Zard due to being floatier, has a better uair for keeping Zard out vertically, and safer combo properties than Roy, making that matchup much closer to even IMO.

 

[Taytertot]

Charizard matches Roy in movement speed and reach (disjoint or no disjoint--same reason Sheik's back air is so good, having disjoint doesn't matter when you'll whiff if they don't throw out the move, and many of Zard's moves work the same way), combos him easily, edgeguards him fairly easily, and has a good enough recovery to get around anything Roy can dish out. I'm honestly not sure what Roy's supposed to do in this matchup unless he's winning neutral a lot, i.e. being a better player in the first place.

Marth at least has substantially better edgeguarding on Zard due to being floatier, has a better uair for keeping Zard out vertically, and safer combo properties than Roy, making that matchup much closer to even IMO.

while zard does have a fast running speed (faster then roy's if im not mistaken) the distance of his DDing is fairly short which leads me to believe that he wouldnt be able to use that to get out of the way of roy's disjoints if roy spaces with that in mind. Roy also combos zard very hard, as he does with all heavy characters (zard is as floaty as ivy iirc and ivy is is a great combo weight for roy so zards extra weight will only mean that he'll be closer to roy after a given hit). Im not sure id agree with charizard's recovery being able to avoid roy's edgeguarding because if roy times a dair so that the back end hitbox goes out past the ledge i think itd cover zards recovery unless zard snaps to the ledge a lot further away then i remember. i feel like while ard outranges roy, he also has considerable endlag on his moves and so roy can just DD in and out until zard commits and then punish and im not sure what zard has that would force roy to have to approach in an unsafe manner. roy's ftilt i think would do very well against zard since he can angle it down to try and poke at the hurtbox on zard's tail if he goes for a dtilt (which i imagine would be zard's main spacing tool in the MU since roy outranges zard's ftilt). i also feel that roy can pressure zard's shield a lot better and keep zard in a bad position regardless of what option zard uses to try and get out of shield whereas zard has to either grab roy while hes in shield or poke at roy's shield and get punished or grants roy a safe way to get out of shield.
I always thought that roy had an advantage that marth didnt in the MU because roy's gameplan is about poking an opponent until theyre in a position where roy can go for meaty hilt hits and has the falling speed to throw out lots of aerials whereas marth wants to keep opponents at a certain distance (where zard would also be more effective) and marth has much more of an issue with taking stocks once/if his opponent gets above a certain percent and roy doesnt suffer from that before being able to reliably kill without needing to gimp/spike (like dair into bair at around 90% or uair into fsmash around the same percent).
I know that im bias but all that seems to lean the MU in roy's favor unless im very wrong about zards frame data or Im just underestimating zard by a lot.

 

[Life]

You are 100% underestimating Zard by a ton, especially in the recovery department. Ever heard of glide? He cannot consistently cover all of Zard's options out of glide. Sour dair in particular loses to early glide attack and b-cancel. Charizard can sweetspot under anything Roy can do, although a Roy that knows the matchup will edgehog if he sees that coming.

While Roy might theoretically have a range advantage with ftilt, the difference in range with ftilt is small enough that Zard can DD bait and punish it. Additionally, Roy can only transition to ftilt from a dashdance either by canceling the dash into crouch or wavedash and then ftilting afterwards, or by inputting pivot ftilt which he can only do from dashing back and from an input that isn't easily done instantly. The implication? Roy can't ftilt when he and Zard are dashing at each other. (Can't dtilt either, unless he gets to the end of his DD range and crouches.) During that time Zard can encroach into his space; Roy's options in this situation are to grab, perform various unsafe attacks such as dash attack or pivot fsmash or DACUS, shield, do aerials (which have decent startup when jumpsquat is factored in and may not be safe), or dash back/wavedash/etc. and try to bait something, all of which Zard can answer. If Roy walks up to Zard, he does a little better optionwise but isn't moving particularly fast.

Matchups come down to so much more than just "loses to X move" and (stereotype warning ahoy) I wish PM players didn't so frequently try to reduce matchups down to that. PM is a beautiful game with so many possibilities.

I'm not familiar with Roy's shield pressure game, but I do play Marth in Melee and I know Marth can't do space-animal-style shield pressure, which is the type Zard struggles with the most. His wavedash out of shield is not fantastic by any stretch, but it's usually enough to deal with spacing-based pressure.

 

[Taytertot]

You are 100% underestimating Zard by a ton, especially in the recovery department. Ever heard of glide? He cannot consistently cover all of Zard's options out of glide. Sour dair in particular loses to early glide attack and b-cancel. Charizard can sweetspot under anything Roy can do, although a Roy that knows the matchup will edgehog if he sees that coming.

While Roy might theoretically have a range advantage with ftilt, the difference in range with ftilt is small enough that Zard can DD bait and punish it. Additionally, Roy can only transition to ftilt from a dashdance either by canceling the dash into crouch or wavedash and then ftilting afterwards, or by inputting pivot ftilt which he can only do from dashing back and from an input that isn't easily done instantly. The implication? Roy can't ftilt when he and Zard are dashing at each other. (Can't dtilt either, unless he gets to the end of his DD range and crouches.) During that time Zard can encroach into his space; Roy's options in this situation are to grab, perform various unsafe attacks such as dash attack or pivot fsmash or DACUS, shield, do aerials (which have decent startup when jumpsquat is factored in and may not be safe), or dash back/wavedash/etc. and try to bait something, all of which Zard can answer. If Roy walks up to Zard, he does a little better optionwise but isn't moving particularly fast.

Matchups come down to so much more than just "loses to X move" and (stereotype warning ahoy) I wish PM players didn't so frequently try to reduce matchups down to that. PM is a beautiful game with so many possibilities.

I'm not familiar with Roy's shield pressure game, but I do play Marth in Melee and I know Marth can't do space-animal-style shield pressure, which is the type Zard struggles with the most. His wavedash out of shield is not fantastic by any stretch, but it's usually enough to deal with spacing-based pressure.

ok fair enough i didnt expect to be right but i hadnt been given good reasons to believe zard was good against roy before and wanted to understand the MU better. Roy's shield pressure is more pseudo-pressure; he can poke safely with tipper dtilt (or tipper ftilt though that gives opponents a free wavedash OoS) and if the opponent wavedashes OoS after roy tipper dtilts he can chase after them and they would be at a frame disadvantage (and therefore limited in what options they have to deal with roy) since tipper dtilt is safe on shield and is only -5 iirc. they could shield roy's attack after getting OoS which would probably give them a grab but roy's strength is not always in actually using an attack but by approach space when his opponent is at a frame dsiadvantage (similar to how marth uses those same tactics). But you brought up good points and i'll reevaluate my thoughts on the MU.

Would you say its as much in zard's favor as +2 though? I could see it being +1 too given that zard is a somewhat slow character in terms of frames for his attacks. because atm the MU chart says that link and zard are roy's 2 worst MU's and i dont think ive talked to a single roy player who hasnt said DK is his worst MU by quite a bit.

 

[Life]

I don't wanna stick a number on it, as I haven't really fought a Roy that was my equal as a player so I can't tell how much of it is the matchup (or whether I'm even playing it right). And besides that, different players mean different things by different numbers so it's a little hard to really give any accurate matchup numbers at all. (I have that daftatt quote in my sig for a reason!)

I also wouldn't take any PM matchup chart as gospel; lots of matchups barely get played at all. I defy you to find any high level play for, I don't know, Pit vs. Olimar or something.

 

[Taytertot]

I don't wanna stick a number on it, as I haven't really fought a Roy that was my equal as a player so I can't tell how much of it is the matchup (or whether I'm even playing it right). And besides that, different players mean different things by different numbers so it's a little hard to really give any accurate matchup numbers at all. (I have that daftatt quote in my sig for a reason!)

I also wouldn't take any PM matchup chart as gospel; lots of matchups barely get played at all. I defy you to find any high level play for, I don't know, Pit vs. Olimar or something.

agreed but id like to try to correct any info (which probably will need to happen many times before accurate) because eventually the MUs will be accurate with enough going over.

 

[steelguttey]

hey guys, the olimar matchup thread is doing the zard mu this week come and tell us what you think of the mu!

 

[JOE!]

hey guys, the olimar matchup thread is doing the zard mu this week come and tell us what you think of the mu!

Unfortunately I have yet to play this since the Oli-overhaul, but I can imagine this still being like a 55/45 for Zard thanks to range/speed allowing him to content with Pikmin attacks.

 

[_Chrome]

Hey everyone! I don't know if any of you recall, but a while back I used to be a Charizard main... well that spark ended after a while and I developed other characters like ZSS, Link, Snake and finally Meta Knight. I was wondering how Charizard's MU against Samus and Roy have been doing. I noticed your talk about Zard beating Roy and that excites me. I recall Zard-Samus being negative, but I'd still like the advice from all of you.

After not playing the game for a month and not playing Zard for about 2-3, here is a set against a friend/rival from my region:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0RQtlzpoH4

Thanks again for being cool dudes. Just a friendly btw.

 

[Taytertot]

Hey everyone! I don't know if any of you recall, but a while back I used to be a Charizard main... well that spark ended after a while and I developed other characters like ZSS, Link, Snake and finally Meta Knight. I was wondering how Charizard's MU against Samus and Roy have been doing. I noticed your talk about Zard beating Roy and that excites me. I recall Zard-Samus being negative, but I'd still like the advice from all of you.

After not playing the game for a month and not playing Zard for about 2-3, here is a set against a friend/rival from my region:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0RQtlzpoH4

Thanks again for being cool dudes. Just a friendly btw.

not that i know zard well but my assumption is that zard would have a lot of difficulty dealing with samus' great projectile game and the MU would strongly favor samus which i think would force you to pick/counterpick/ban stages very carefully in order to manage the MU. a small stage might be good for zard because it allows you to close the gap on samus and makes her missiles more of a commitment. but if a zard main tells you different then im probably just wrong.

 

[eideeiit]

I also know nothing, but I've heard that Zard's punish game on Samus is like the best of the cast. I get the feeling this is a really stage dependent MU.

 

[Life]

I don't have experience in the Samus matchup, but it can't be THAT bad. AFAIK she's relatively vulnerable to kill throws (she dies the second-earliest out of everyone to Lucas' uthrow, which is of course a little different since that one's entirely vertical and Zard's is only partially so, but still) and we've got one of those. We've got a relatively fast run speed which helps us chase her down through her projectiles. We've got pretty substantial edgeguarding prowess on her, too.

That said, I doubt a single person on this planet has played this matchup frequently at a high level. Those are just my impressions of Zard's possible advantages over Samus.

 

[eideeiit]

I think there are some proficient players of both chars in the NY area that may know better.

Boiko bubbaking ?

 

[Boiko]

Bubbaking may have a different opinion than me, but I think it's close to even, but slightly in Samus' favor. They're both good at spacing each other out with tilts, though I think that Samus is slightly better. Zard is good at closing the gap, but Samus is good at zoning and keeping pressure on with projectiles. If Samus has time to set up a projectile wall, I think that it's pretty hard for Zard to revert the pace back to something that he's comfortable with. Whereas, in that neutral poking exchanges, Samus can go toe to toe with Zard. No matter what, I feel like she's at an advantage, unless she's in the air. She can use bomb stalling to help herself come down, but something like Zard nair is just going to eat the bombs and pop her back up.

Zard really just wants to keep her up and in the air. but it's a bit easier said than done.

 

[_Chrome]

Bubbaking may have a different opinion than me, but I think it's close to even, but slightly in Samus' favor. They're both good at spacing each other out with tilts, though I think that Samus is slightly better. Zard is good at closing the gap, but Samus is good at zoning and keeping pressure on with projectiles. If Samus has time to set up a projectile wall, I think that it's pretty hard for Zard to revert the pace back to something that he's comfortable with. Whereas, in that neutral poking exchanges, Samus can go toe to toe with Zard. No matter what, I feel like she's at an advantage, unless she's in the air. She can use bomb stalling to help herself come down, but something like Zard nair is just going to eat the bombs and pop her back up.

Zard really just wants to keep her up and in the air. but it's a bit easier said than done.

So as Charaizard I should be fairly grounded then using DDs to close the gap and control the stage, all the while avoiding getting grabbed or stuffed with a missile, tilt, etc.? I have a Link so I could use him for this match-up instead...

 

[Boiko]

So as Charaizard I should be fairly grounded then using DDs to close the gap and control the stage, all the while avoiding getting grabbed or stuffed with a missile, tilt, etc.? I have a Link so I could use him for this match-up instead...

Your goal is to put her in the air. Challenging her on the ground can be difficult, but I'm not sure what options Zard has coming from above.

 

[_Chrome]

Your goal is to put her in the air. Challenging her on the ground can be difficult, but I'm not sure what options Zard has coming from above.

I don't think he has great options coming down, and Link just seems to be the better pick for this MU anyways.

 

[Taytertot]

I don't think he has great options coming down, and Link just seems to be the better pick for this MU anyways.

zard does have significant range advantage on samus from the ground so dtilt would probably be great in neutral. link does have his shield though which for some reason just blocks projectiles and his arrows/boomerang would interrupt samus projectile game pretty well i imagine.

 

[Randomman14]

I saw you guys talking about the Roy Zard MU a bit ago and as someone who mains both id have to say i think its about even with a slight edge to zard. roy is fairly easy to edge guard and gimp so if you can get him off stage it should be fairly easy to kill him. on the other hand roy and combo zard decently, usually into some kill move like fsmash, which on stages with smaller sides is a usually a kill move around 60-70.

 

[Soft Serve]

As zard players, what are you opinions/insights with the Diddy MU? I've been trying to figure it out for a while but zard is an inegma. I don't know if what zard is doing is legitimate or just a gimmick I don't know spacing for. I do know that our best zard player is the only person who knows how to actually edge guard me because he used to play diddy lol.

Just like, thoughts? What should zard be looking to do in the mu? I know as diddy I can just play my game, but I need to formulate against what zard will be doing etc.

 

[Taytertot]

As zard players, what are you opinions/insights with the Diddy MU? I've been trying to figure it out for a while but zard is an inegma. I don't know if what zard is doing is legitimate or just a gimmick I don't know spacing for. I do know that our best zard player is the only person who knows how to actually edge guard me because he used to play diddy lol.

Just like, thoughts? What should zard be looking to do in the mu? I know as diddy I can just play my game, but I need to formulate against what zard will be doing etc.

well i dont know much about this mu but id imagine that zard is going to try to poke with dtilt, ftilt, jab and maybe bair so that he can put you in a position to get combos started since zard doesnt want to invade diddys threat zone blindly as that would result in diddy kicking the crap out of zard cause diddys combo game is awesome and zard doesnt have good ways to deal with the combos once they start up. but zard does have a significant range advantage on diddy and can combo FFers quite well. zard's get a very fast top run speed but his initial dash doesnt go very far so id imagine hed want to run in a little and crouch to cancel the run, spacing so that he can get tipper tilts. zard typically has trouble with projectiles so peanut and banana are going to be huge concerns for him in neutral as he tries to find his spacing. zard has great tech chase/coverage options so be careful about how you tech and try to avoid giving him tech chase situations for free. zard has great sharking moves so being on a platform above him is also generally a bad idea unless you intentionally are trying to bait it out and punish though zards utilt and usmash are probably somewhat safe for sharking. if you are good at platform dropping from shield or bait it out and avoid it by dashing off the far side of the platform just before and hitting him those would probably be your best bets.

but im no zard player so those are just general theories and ideas i have on zard if someone says im wrong here then they probably know what theyre talking about, in which case disregard what ive wrote.

 

[ihasabuket]

Hey guys wanted to join in the discussion, im a zard main from south florida my training partner is a ZSS main named girth if anyone knows him. Well anyway I have tons of experience in the MU and I think its fairly even. I'd like to hear the argument for the ZSS MU placement to see if I can help everyone with their problems in the MU.

 

[_Chrome]

Hey everyone, I wanted to pick up Charizard again so that I could dual main Charizard and Meta Knight, but all of the character pictures on the MU post come up as blank images except for Sonic and ROB oddly. If that could be fixed or if I could get a list of MUs I would greatly appreciate it if weren't too much trouble. Thanks to anyone who sees this and lets me know.

 

[JOE!]

Hey everyone, I wanted to pick up Charizard again so that I could dual main Charizard and Meta Knight, but all of the character pictures on the MU post come up as blank images except for Sonic and ROB oddly. If that could be fixed or if I could get a list of MUs I would greatly appreciate it if weren't too much trouble. Thanks to anyone who sees this and lets me know.

Oh, thanks for the heads up! I'll have to redo this all.

 

[Whirlpool]

Not to be rude but if you tried to fix them, the images still won't show.

Also this discussion is almost dead :~:

 

[Crizor]

Hey guys wanted to join in the discussion, im a zard main from south florida my training partner is a ZSS main named girth if anyone knows him. Well anyway I have tons of experience in the MU and I think its fairly even. I'd like to hear the argument for the ZSS MU placement to see if I can help everyone with their problems in the MU.

I guess its for both Ike and ZSS, but I feel helpless once I'm in the air. Even if she whiffs Up-B my time to punish or escape is small, me jumping to escape Up-B or UAir is just another trap into Up-B or UAir. ZSS also chokes out a lot of options from Zard, sure I can try to CC out of some stuff, but I still feel I'm hard committing to my next move because all of ZSS's moves have low endlag and mine have high endlag, even her DSmash is hard to shield grab. Although, I know I don't play well against faster characters like that and I probably have a lot of work to do on edgegaurds, her punish/pressure game just seems really easy on Zard.

 

[N00B64]

images broken for anyone else?

 

[Kycse]

Images are broken but I'd love to get some discussion stared again. I've got a bunch of knowledge now on a bunch of match ups now against many notable players. I'd love to chime in.

 

[JOE!]

I gotta find the images again since the main PM site is down, brb on that

Edit:

We can also use this tool to make a MU listing:

https://quetzle.github.io/smash-apps/tier/projectm.html

 

[Crizor]

Any insight on the Ike MU?

I feel once I let him have space for QD that I start to lose neutral and he has a easy time getting a kill on Zard since I can't really challenge any of his aerials. Also, I'm really bad at edge guarding him.