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Official 2GGT: ZeRo Saga discussion thread - Top 48

EternalFlare

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Messages
306
Duck Hunt has no need to be banned.

Don't play a character that gets lamed out.
There's no positive side to having it legal. It's a terrible stage for competitive play, anyone who's played Brawl competitively (and realize how similar Smash 4 is to it) could have told you that way before Smash 4 came out.

As for the negative sides specifically:
-It makes less characters viable, far less
-It promotes campy play in a game where campy play is already optimal
-It's boring for viewers (who are the only reason Esports teams have taken an interest in Smash letting players play Smash full time)
 
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MachoCheeze

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He's playing with an unimaginable amount of pressure, to be fair
Every time he plays he plays with an unimaginable amount of pressure. He was playing sloppy and Leo unleashed the beast.
 
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SaltyKracka

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
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1,983
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San Diego, CA
God damn, MKLeo just 3-0s Void, too.

At this point, I think people just need to stop trying to CP him to Duck Hunt.
 
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FamilyTeam

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DH truly is not a bad stage for Marth and Lucina. It's basically FD but with ledges, and although you have all the space in the world to keep your distance from your opponent in FD, it sucks for Marth and Lucina because it's hard to land. DH allows them to land more safely than in FD and that fixes a lot for them.
 

FamilyTeam

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Nobody learns anything in this community.
Larry didn't stop using Fox Illusion when it stopped working.
Larry didn't stop Dash Attacking his shield when he could have grabbed
Larry didn't stop FSmashing him for the kill even after it didn't work the other 5 times he attempted it in this set.
No one learns a damn thing.
 

Mr. Johan

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Any player who wants to use Fox in Smash 4 needs to pass a written exam on Fsmash.

And yes, it includes an essay component.
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
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Canada
Nobody learns anything in this community.
Larry didn't stop using Fox Illusion when it stopped working.
Larry didn't stop Dash Attacking his shield when he could have grabbed
Larry didn't stop FSmashing him for the kill even after it didn't work the other 5 times he attempted it in this set.
No one learns a damn thing.
This is a bit of an extreme reaction.

People make mistakes. When you factor mental exhaustion and pressure, people are even more liable to make them. Now granted, I'm not saying he's exempt from criticizing (going for those desperate Fsmashes was definitely a bad move) but saying that "no on learns a damn thing" is pretty unfair.
 

Vyrnx

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
639
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KY/NC
Some of my impressions from the tournament:

Nairo's bracket in winners top 8 was potentially very good for him with players he does well against (Void, Ally, Larry), yet his top 8 performance was very unimpressive.

People have got to learn the Marth MU (like for real, quit getting your shields broken). It's just expected players will improve against Leo, not that Leo is going anywhere. I don't say this because I think Marth is a fraud or something, I say this because Marth is clearly an addition to the top tiers and with Leo as a traveling top player, this is just a MU every top player is gonna have to know.

FOW's performance was pretty good, losing to Fatality is kinda eh but I'm not gonna try to take a whole lot away from this considering FOW hasn't been around in a while and ZeRo was in his pool. But I was reminded how crazy good Ness's edge guarding and two framing is, even on some of the best recoveries like Bayonetta, and without having to give up stage control.

M2's nair footstool is stupid as hell.

Leo is just as good or better at ledge trapping than ZeRo. ZeRo can get damage at the ledge pretty consistently, but Leo is just ridiculously dangerous when he has you on the ledge, always able to pull out tippers and cover everything with Marth, or abuse Cloud's ledge coverage. Leo vs Marss at UGC was absolute destruction of Marss when he was on the ledge. That said, Larry had a couple issues with Leo's ledge presence, but just in general Fox doesn't struggle that badly on the ledge against a lot of characters. He only has one mixup, but it's a great mixup that can give him the entire stage back. It's very hard for characters to cover all of his ledge options at once. I know Rosa can, at least. A lot of top tier disadvantage states like Sheik and ZSS still very much struggle at getting off the ledge.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
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Some of my impressions from the tournament:

Nairo's bracket in winners top 8 was potentially very good for him with players he does well against (Void, Ally, Larry), yet his top 8 performance was very unimpressive.

People have got to learn the Marth MU (like for real, quit getting your shields broken). It's just expected players will improve against Leo, not that Leo is going anywhere. I don't say this because I think Marth is a fraud or something, I say this because Marth is clearly an addition to the top tiers and with Leo as a traveling top player, this is just a MU every top player is gonna have to know.

FOW's performance was pretty good, losing to Fatality is kinda eh but I'm not gonna try to take a whole lot away from this considering FOW hasn't been around in a while and ZeRo was in his pool. But I was reminded how crazy good Ness's edge guarding and two framing is, even on some of the best recoveries like Bayonetta, and without having to give up stage control.

M2's nair footstool is stupid as hell.

Leo is just as good or better at ledge trapping than ZeRo. ZeRo can get damage at the ledge pretty consistently, but Leo is just ridiculously dangerous when he has you on the ledge, always able to pull out tippers and cover everything with Marth, or abuse Cloud's ledge coverage. Leo vs Marss at UGC was absolute destruction of Marss when he was on the ledge. That said, Larry had a couple issues with Leo's ledge presence, but just in general Fox doesn't struggle that badly on the ledge against a lot of characters. He only has one mixup, but it's a great mixup that can give him the entire stage back. It's very hard for characters to cover all of his ledge options at once. I know Rosa can, at least. A lot of top tier disadvantage states like Sheik and ZSS still very much struggle at getting off the ledge.
Marth is better at ledge trapping than Diddy, IMO. Even ZeRo struggles to catch jump from ledge. But Marth can make that genuinely dangerous.
 

FamilyTeam

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This is a bit of an extreme reaction.

People make mistakes. When you factor mental exhaustion and pressure, people are even more liable to make them. Now granted, I'm not saying he's exempt from criticizing (going for those desperate Fsmashes was definitely a bad move) but saying that "no on learns a damn thing" is pretty unfair.
It might be unfair. But it's what I've been seeing for months since I started looking at matches with a very critical eye.
I think Leo and Zero are the best players now because of it. They actually have the hability to adapt mid match much better than anyone else even dreams of. They're monsters.
 

YerTheBestAROUND

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http://i.imgur.com/TwUFX4I.jpg

Forgive the crappy editing but this is what I was seeing whenever people took Leo to battlefield.

Leo would get them out of that bubble he was creating and keep them there, and it was very rare that they'd ever get back in there, and even if they did they'd often get thrown back out. He never had to go further left or right than the side platforms when ledge trapping because of Marth's sword and he was still able to cover almost all options. The power of disjoint + solid frame data + good mobility.
 
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Emblem Lord

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And that is why Ryu is not top 10 in the current meta. No Ryu is good against getting camped out hard. Either the character is just too limited and it will never happen or Ryus need to seriously step it up.

In other news, DuckHunt seriously needs to be banned. Even Halberd would be a much better pick if people are desperate for more stages. Duck Hunt invalidates most of the cast as they don't really have an answer to getting camped out that hard.
lol. You have no idea how hard the Ryu community labs MU's. They are all dedicated. He just loses to strong characters in the meta.

Marth is on the rise and that doesn't bode well for Ryu either.

Ryu is good. Not good enough. Such is the way of fighting games. Mobility is king in this series. With Ryu's mobility the way it is, it speaks volumes of how solid he is overall.
 

Gaarame33

Smash Rookie
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Dec 19, 2016
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I know I'm late to the discussion but I could tell MKLeo was going to get to the Grand Finals right after he beat Zero the first game. He came into that game showing who he is as a Competitive Player now. Everyone knows Zero is referred to as THE Diddy. As well as Void for Shiek and Larry for Fox, the fact of the matter is Leo put in the hard work and dedication he needed to with Marth. Someone who's usually just used as a counter pick in this game. But he showed that he IS Marth in this game now, and in my opinion Marth wins those matchups when he's playing on the same level as Fox, Sheik, and Diddy.
 

Wnyke

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
73
Nobody learns anything in this community.
Larry didn't stop using Fox Illusion when it stopped working.
Larry didn't stop Dash Attacking his shield when he could have grabbed
Larry didn't stop FSmashing him for the kill even after it didn't work the other 5 times he attempted it in this set.
No one learns a damn thing.
He was trying to do the so MARVELous "no mix up, mix up", but since the game speed and the player wasn't really going on his favor, he never won, and won't do it ever...lol
 

|RK|

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It went game 5 last hit.

:018:
I know - I saw on Twitter! It's all caps, but it wasn't meant as a knock against you. That is, it's not "y'all thought *Seagull* was gonna drop this man?" It was meant to call back to the conversation about match results earlier. :p
 
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