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BRoomer
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Link to original post: [drupal=825]>: ( [/drupal]



When brawl was first released I almost wanted to quit the whole smash series; honestly. The community got to me. And as somewhat of an aspiring game designer another part of me was lost. I'm confident is saying I could beat half the people complaining about brawl's lack of depth and need for skill to do well in their melee. I'm not some disgruntled melee player who found a nitch.


And it's the arguments that I find ironic. For one lack of balance. When in melee only 5 or 6 characters were tournament viable simply because of chain grabs that lead to death KOs. But Dedede does it the length of a stage and suddenly brawl is horrible and unplayable because of it.

For two lack of comboing =/= lack of depth. Hell, the term "lack of depth" is so vague it is impossible to even really argue against. What does that even mean? No Advanced Tecniques? No wave dashing?... That doesn't make a game deep by any stretch. There is much more than what is just on the surface in brawl and that is what makes a deep game. Spacing, baiting, pressuring opponents, a complex edge game. These aren't aspects of the game you are just going to stumble on to. Yes, I intended that pun.

And tripping! My god, man up, own your choices. If you consider yourself a high level player you'll understand the risks associated with the choices you make. Running means you have a chance of tripping. if you can't afford to trip then you can't afford to run it is a simple concept.

I don't know maybe people don't like the game because it is now easier to get back to neutral for defenders. In melee advanced play any single hit that connected became an up hill battle for the person of the defense. Now it been switched and the attacker has to work now to keep that momentum going and own his advantage.

In the end there is no overall better or worse. There is a "better for me". If you don't like a game don't play it. And don't get me wrong I love to hear people's opinions on why they'd rather play one over the other. I've had many a discussion on the topic before. But I hate lame blanket unarguable reasoning as to why this game is bad when that is far from the case.
 

Witchking_of_Angmar

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Get your **** together before you rant. 5-6 viable characters because of CG's that end in kill moves?

Really, the only people that get really ***** by CG's are spacies. They get chaingrabbed by Fox, Peach, Marth, the Marios. Of course, Sheik also has really violent CG's against a bunch of characters, but rarely do they lead straight into a kill move.

Compare that to Brawl: Dedede can take 4 characters (that are not top tier) from 0-death off a single grab. Grabs happen to be very easy to get in Brawl. Nothing at all like this exists in Melee.

Still more for Balance: To be honest I'm relatively new (look at my join date) so I dunno if there ever was anything like this in melee, but as far as I know, no one ever seriously proposed banning a character in Melee, not even back when Sheik looked unbeatable. Yet in Brawl, for some reason this is a serious debate! And yet Brawlers tout Brawl's so-called "Balance" as if it were a factor that Melee would never reach with its (again, so-called) "broken" characters. Absurd!

I'm not gonna argue with your points because it's just a waste of my time, but I advise you again:

Before you debate, get your facts together, and get them right.
 

Cinder

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Jag förstår inte. Vad sa du?


Seriously, listen to Witchking...

And the reason most of us hate Brawl is because it's so defensive...it's slow, there's no hitstun, and we get bored of it after a couple of matches...
 

8AngeL8

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Brawl is more poorly balanced than Melee was, but I still have more fun with Brawl anyway. The slower pace, lack of combos, etc, all makes the game better to me, because it's you vs. your opponent rather than you vs. your controller.

All respect to melee, I know it was an awesome game. Brawl is more fun to me, though.
 

8AngeL8

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Okay, still is. I still play Melee occasionally and I know it's a fantastic game, I just see the things most of the melee guys complain about as positives, not negatives. I guess it's just fundamental difference of opinion, no point in arguing about it.
 

Jam Stunna

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You know I love you James, but you're wrong on this one.

I won't even get into nitty-gritty tournament stuff. Let's look at Snake's hitboxes:



This picture comes from Into the Fray: A Snake Survival Guide. This is not a disjointed hitbox; this is a broken hitbox. Snake can literally NOT TOUCH YOU and cause damage. You said that you want to be a game designer, so I ask you: when you get into the industry, would you be satisfied to let such a thing escape game testing and quality control?
 

CommanderCody08

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Why on earth does no one mention stickers in these Brawl/ Melee argumnents?

Melee is a great game and all but with Melee can you spend hours and hours arranging and taking pictures of the different stickers you've collected? I don't think so. I really do enjoy the feel of Melee and the fact that I can **** my friends more easily, but its like, "what's the point if I don't expect to get rewarded with some pretty new stickers?"

Sitckers aren't only for little kids leaving the Doctor's office. STICKERS ARE FOR BRAWLERS!!!
 

Cinder

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Why on earth does no one mention stickers in these Brawl/ Melee argumnents?
Because no one cares...

Melee is a great game and all but with Melee can you spend hours and hours arranging and taking pictures of the different stickers you've collected? I don't think so.
Your point? People who care more about the actual gameplay wouldn't care about little features...besides, I tried fidgeting with the stickers and trophies...not fun...at least not to me...

I really do enjoy the feel of Melee and the fact that I can **** my friends more easily, but its like, "what's the point if I don't expect to get rewarded with some pretty new stickers?"
...if all you care about is stickers, then you sir, are strange...the point is, you actually need skill to win in Melee...victories feel so much more poignant, since you have to work harder for them on higher levels...the satisfaction of winning a fast-paced match are unparallelled in my experience...

Sitckers aren't only for little kids leaving the Doctor's office. STICKERS ARE FOR BRAWLERS!!!
That's nice...
 

Oracle

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Wow, stickers? This is what the brawl community has come to?

Also your argument is flawed and fails. We don't like brawl because it's about as competitive as pong.
 

BRoomer
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You know I love you James, but you're wrong on this one.

I won't even get into nitty-gritty tournament stuff. Let's look at Snake's hitboxes:



This picture comes from Into the Fray: A Snake Survival Guide. This is not a disjointed hitbox; this is a broken hitbox. Snake can literally NOT TOUCH YOU and cause damage. You said that you want to be a game designer, so I ask you: when you get into the industry, would you be satisfied to let such a thing escape game testing and quality control?
Jam a broken hit box does not constitute a broken game. Samus' forward smash does the same thing in melee I personally loved it, marth's grab has pretty much the same range that is pictured above I hated it. I won't try and make it sound like this is fine though. The visual representation of a move should make sense with it's hit box that goes without saying. But we know what the hit boxes of a move actually are and should be able to compensate for them.

Get your **** together before you rant. 5-6 viable characters because of CG's that end in kill moves?

Really, the only people that get really ***** by CG's are spacies. They get chaingrabbed by Fox, Peach, Marth, the Marios. Of course, Sheik also has really violent CG's against a bunch of characters, but rarely do they lead straight into a kill move.


Compare that to Brawl: Dedede can take 4 characters (that are not top tier) from 0-death off a single grab. Grabs happen to be very easy to get in Brawl. Nothing at all like this exists in Melee.
:/ every character can be infinited in melee by the ICs from zero to death. Shiek should be finishing chain grabs with a forward tilt to slap.


Still more for Balance: To be honest I'm relatively new (look at my join date) so I dunno if there ever was anything like this in melee, but as far as I know, no one ever seriously proposed banning a character in Melee, not even back when Sheik looked unbeatable. Yet in Brawl, for some reason this is a serious debate! And yet Brawlers tout Brawl's so-called "Balance" as if it were a factor that Melee would never reach with its (again, so-called) "broken" characters. Absurd!
The IC infinite, wobbling was the cause for many a thread and debate. not long before brawl. The smash comunity has been very ban happy lately so I'm not shocked that this same kind of ideology was translated to brawl. Meta is fine people beat meta knights all the time in high levels of competition. I'm my opinion the brawl community needs to stop crying so much and play the game for more than 7 or 8 months before they start crying ban.

The reason I say brawl is more balanced than melee is because this game allows for a larger percentage of characters to place well in major tournaments that melee did, it is not a comparison of techniques or actual characters.

I'm not gonna argue with your points because it's just a waste of my time, but I advise you again:

Before you debate, get your facts together, and get them right.
Okay.
 

Witchking_of_Angmar

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You can't CG most characters long enough that the *****slap kills. Wobblimg is banned at most tournies, despite:

*grabs are hard for IC's to land (****ty grab range)
*IC's have to be synched to wobble
*Nana has to be alive

Pretty much every character has ways of seperating the IC's and even killing Nana, so Ice Climbers rarely even get the chance to wobble people. And it's still banned.

The other chaingrabs the IC's have are by no means guaranteed and also very difficult to pull off.

You also have nothing to back your claim that a larger percentage of characters in Brawl win tournaments than in Melee.
 

Umby

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Link to original post: [drupal=825]>: ( [/drupal]

And tripping! My god, man up, own your choices. If you consider yourself a high level player you'll understand the risks associated with the choices you make. Running means you have a chance of tripping. if you can't afford to trip then you can't afford to run it is a simple concept.
1) People don't like the fact that you even HAVE a chance at tripping from trying to run. Punishment is about one opponent making a mistake and the other opponent capitalizing upon it. Why should running be a mistake at random times, and why should the game engine be the one causing you to be punished for it?

2) Sonic's optimal gameplay is based nostly on running. Are you telling me that Sonic can't or shouldn't be able to afford having to run because he can't afford to trip? IMO, that logic would cause a lack of balance in the game itself.

3) If I further can't afford to trip, does that mean I also can't afford to capitalize on punishment because I can't afford to run towards the opponent to do so?

The only decent thing about tripping is that it's sometimes humorous to see someone post or shout "SAKURAIIII!!!" to make a reference of it.

edit: in response to your previous post that I managed to miss, I would like an explanatino as to how you perceive the character rankings prove that more characters are tourney viable than in Melee.
 

Jam Stunna

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Jam a broken hit box does not constitute a broken game. Samus' forward smash does the same thing in melee I personally loved it, marth's grab has pretty much the same range that is pictured above I hated it. I won't try and make it sound like this is fine though. The visual representation of a move should make sense with it's hit box that goes without saying. But we know what the hit boxes of a move actually are and should be able to compensate for them.
That's actually exactly what it means. My problem isn't with the range itself, but that range exists BEYOND the animation. Marth's grab range was ridiculous, but he actually had to TOUCH YOU to grab you. The same with Samus' fsmash. I'm not asking developers to be perfect, but there's at least five feet (in game distance, of course) between Snake and Link. That is unacceptable.

What about the edge glitch then? Or grab-release combos? Or D3's standing infinite? My point is that it is troubling to me that people continue to defend a game with such obvious programming deficiencies. It seems like people will continue to make excuses for Brawl as long as there's nothing game-crashing about it, which is an incredibly low standard. As a competitive community, we should be more choosy about what game we allow to be the face of our community.
 

BRoomer
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You can afford to trip.I didn't say "don't run" I'm saying don't be surprised when you trip understand the posibility is there.

Basically don't run forward if you see an opponent charging a smash or any othersituation where tripping would but you in a position that may cost you a stock or more damage than you want to take etc. I run all the time but I'm not going to complain when I know why it happened.

Real players understand their limitations and work around them to achive success.
 

Jam Stunna

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You can afford to trip.I didn't say "don't run" I'm saying don't be surprised when you trip understand the posibility is there.

Basically don't run forward if you see an opponent charging a smash or any othersituation where tripping would but you in a position that may cost you a stock or more damage than you want to take etc. I run all the time but I'm not going to complain when I know why it happened.

Real players understand their limitations and work around them to achive success.
James, do you hear yourself? You are making excuses for an incredibly ******** game mechanic. Why in God's name does it make sense to punish a player for running in a fighting game? How can you apply pressure or continue a combo if you can't even move at the maximum speed the game allows without opening yourself to a detrimental and completely random event?

Would you have put tripping in Brawl?
 

Umby

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You can afford to trip.I didn't say "don't run" I'm saying don't be surprised when you trip understand the posibility is there.

Basically don't run forward if you see an opponent charging a smash or any othersituation where tripping would but you in a position that may cost you a stock or more damage than you want to take etc. I run all the time but I'm not going to complain when I know why it happened.

Real players understand their limitations and work around them to achive success.
That's the thing, running isn't supposed to be a limitation, especially when this game offers such easy perfect shielding. Once again I'll refer to Sonic. Sonic benefits greatly from dashing up to an opponent's face and pshielding in front of them. It allows him an easy shield grab and other wise helps him invade their comfort zone. He also benefits from literally running circles around spot dodge abusers before attacking, or just plain out pivot grabbing them from behind. Real players understand their "limitations" but they also take advantage of available opportunities. To have something as ridiculous of a limitation as tripping to cause a hindrance to that is pretty upsetting.

It's not like getting punished/accepting the limitations of the lag from Ike's forward smash where you can control when you use it (not to mention you are possibly somewhat covered by its large hitbox), but tripping leaves you randomly vulnerable, or prevents you from capitalizing on a disadvantageous position for the opponent, which is ********.
 

BRoomer
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/shrug
Honestly I don't mind it. Sakurai in this game obviously wanted to deter aggressive approaches. powershilding, tripping, etc. I'm not very aggressive so I benefit from knowing that.
 

Umby

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In which case Nintendo further would be assessing its dominance over Sega by forcing Sonic to be such a ground based character.
 

BRoomer
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No offense but if sonics meta game is based around and power shielding moves then he really is a horrible character.

I like independent thinking and "inovation". No game is perfect melee sure as hell wasn't and I am not rrying to say brawl is. But it is by no means unplayable., in fact matches for me any way are fun fast passed and exciting.

It bugs me that the same man who created a new fight genre in the original smash is now being shot down by people who wouldn't have even known his name if the smash dojo wasn't put up. And the fact that changing his own formula; adding new mechanics and a new way to play the series is something he is looked down on for now. In the gaming industry, most entertainment industries actually people want more of the same. When you truly want to create things you don't want to keep throwing out old things with a new coat of paint.
 

ROOOOY!

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No offense but if sonics meta game is based around and power shielding moves then he really is a horrible character.
It's based around punishment :3

As for the topic, yeah. I think 'lack of depth' is a little vague. Brawl isn't fun though for me at all.
 

BRoomer
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Oh :(
Like falcon.

I'm interested to see what happens with these characters say a year from now. Sonic has some stuff going for him.
 

ROOOOY!

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Yes, like Falcon, except Sonic has good approaches :3

I know this isn't a Sonic discussion or anything, but tournament results-wise he's consistantly placing solidly over the months, averaging in the top half of characters, over quite a few of the 'mid tiers'. I personally don't think he'll get much higher than that, he not good enough of a character to be one of the top 10 most 'tourney viable' characters (if we're judging by Ankoku's chart). What annoys me is that a lot of people don't judge Sonic as tourney viable lol >_>


I was never that good at melee. It's not because I'm strongly in love with melee or anything that I hate Brawl, it's just a bad game.
 

Umby

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No offense but if sonics meta game is based around and power shielding moves then he really is a horrible character.
I said it based around running. Powershielding is just a viable option for him when doing so. The availability of that option isn't what makes him a horrible character, though.
I like independent thinking and "inovation". No game is perfect melee sure as hell wasn't and I am not rrying to say brawl is. But it is by no means unplayable., in fact matches for me any way are fun fast passed and exciting.
"Fast paced."

In any case, I highly doubt the speed of the pace of any games played in Brawl. Even when characters move at above average speed, the game doesn't compare to the speed of Melee, since people tend to camp when cornered and there's always that large gap of time in between hits.

It bugs me that the same man who created a new fight genre in the original smash is now being shot down by people who wouldn't have even known his name if the smash dojo wasn't put up. And the fact that changing his own formula; adding new mechanics and a new way to play the series is something he is looked down on for now. In the gaming industry, most entertainment industries actually people want more of the same. When you truly want to create things you don't want to keep throwing out old things with a new coat of paint.
Not really. The entertainment industry doesn't base its processes on keeping things the same. It generally bases it off of what they think appeals to an audience that will get them more money. I mean, think of how many people there are who play better competitive fighters, like Guilty Gear and Street Fighter, as opposed to the number of general Wii fans who pick up Brawl for casual and party play. The latter obviously outnumbers the former. Granted, you could say that Capcom could **** up like Hal Labs did and make it more casual player friendly, but "true fighting games" are generally loyal to the competitive fans. I say all this because Technically, Smash isn't really a fighter.
 

BRoomer
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The new sf has been slowed down tremedously complared to older capcom fighters. The hardcore gamer is a smaller market.

Hal didn't make brawl.
 

Geist

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When we say "lack of depth", we don't mean "we can't wavedash" or "no lcancelling=bad".
Though advanced techs do help with deeper gameplay, its not what is generally wrong with brawl. In brawl there are no options.

/shrug
Honestly I don't mind it. Sakurai in this game obviously wanted to deter aggressive approaches. powershilding, tripping, etc. I'm not very aggressive so I benefit from knowing that.
Problem adressed.
In Brawl, if you're not defensive, you have the disadvantage straight off the bat. Offensive players get power shielded and grabbed, and that's all it takes to stop someone. In previous smash games, you could be a defensive player or an agressive player, and it would take time to get your game down either way, and there was still room to adapt even after years of playing.

As for the rest of the options, they were just taken out. Instead of having a close balance between arials, ground moves, shielding and grabbing, what remains is cut down to simply - shielding and arials based combat.

I know when I say broken gameplay, I'm not refferring to Snake's ridiculous hitboxes or metaknight's priorities. I'm talking about the broken balance of options throughout the entire game. Certain strategies are noticably more dominant than others, and simply cannot be countered by others. Even worse, alot of these strategies involve almost no thought and are easy to pull off. In melee, the chaingrabs were at least reasonably escapable because they weren't on a set knockback, and they required tech chasing, DIing and prediction.
There is no consequence for any mistakes you might make, making the gameplay simplistic, undeveloped, and broken. No matter what your opponent does, there is practically no way that you can take advantage of it, and vice-versa. It just plainly has a lack of any competitive depth. The game ends up being trading hits and retreating.

The fact that there are no combos doesn't mean complete lack of depth either. There have been competitive fighters with a small focus on comboing before, but they still had much more demand for knowledge about the game. The whole no combo aspect of brawl is just a turn-off for some. It doesn't have as much to do with the broken gamplay as other things.
While I'm here, I might as well go over what I think advanced techs do for the complexity of the gameplay. It's true, some games don't really have "advanced techniques parallel to what smash had. Still, these advanced techniques did help add depth. They added viable options to counter others and formed a well rounded rock-paper-scissors like balance.
It wasn't perfect, mind you, nothing is ever perfect, but it was good. And it allowed more options to flourish and add complexity. For example, you could space moves with wavedashing, and L cancelling added a great skill curve and separated the good players from the bad.

There were not really any gamebreaking additions to Brawl. Instead of a sequel where they presented more, they did the opposite. They took alot of things out. Some things they took out were completely unnecessary. Lightsheilding, crouch cancelling, and others were taken out, and there was really no reason for it.
When I see Brawl now, I see a game made for the people that always complained of cheapness when their buddies beat them.

Complete gameplay aspects were also lifted from brawl too. Edgeguarding was a unique system that could really push the boundaries of a good player. This has been reduced to nothing more than a joke in Brawl. It's barely more than a gimic now.

There's more I could go on with, but I'm stopping here. Enough wall of text. So I'll end with this:
Brawl is basically a wii-ified game. Nintendo is focusing on casual gamers, and that's what we got. A casual smash game. Just like every other wii game out there.
 

Umby

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Pick any EA sports game where this hasn't been the case lol.


Oh, and hi Umby
EA sports =/= THE entertainment industry. I meant it in a general reference.

The new sf has been slowed down tremedously complared to older capcom fighters. The hardcore gamer is a smaller market.

Hal didn't make brawl.
That's what I'm saying. The hardcore gamer is a smaller market, which generally yields less profit than if a game was aimed at a general audience.
 
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