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Name a falcon player that has placed in the top 8 at a major in 2015. Though I understand that I might be coming off as rude when I'm arguing like this. My apologies.
Apex, CEO, EVO, and TBH5 are the biggest ones. Most tournaments big enough to have either over 1,000 entrants or a large amount of international players.
highest placement: 1st highest placement: 9th highest placement: 1st highest placement: 17th highest placement: 2nd highest placement: 13th highest placement: 2nd highest placement: 17th highest placement: 3rd highest placement: 5th highest placement: 2nd [M2K] highest placement: 4th
Armada is Peach with Fox mixed in. You can't count someone out if they main 2 characters. Otherwise none of Mang0's results would count, right? Because he uses Falco with Fox mixed in? Right?
But they are still a main for that character. Shroomed, on the other hand, uses Doc for specific matchups, but his results with Doc are still counted.
Peach's is even and peach has a better MU with Fox.
And then you realize that Peach destroys ICs and loses less badly to Fox.
The most common one [which is also wrong IMO] from looking at this thread seems to be
> > > > > > > >
While i am absolutely with you on the opinion that Peach > Falcon, these two reasons are stupid. The Downsmash can deal up to 60%, but should basically never do so. This is like saying Marths Shieldbreaker is good, because if fully charged and Tippered, then it breaks shields instantly. Yes its a good feature, it is just way too situational to make the argument count for a top-tier.
Puff, Falcon, Ice Climbers and Peach are not on the same level as the top four characters, that is a FACT. Indisputable.
I said it can. I never said it should. On average, from what I've seen, it deals around 28% at high level, or more than most other moves in the game.
Except the Falcon has a harder time techchasing peach due to floatieness, and Peach can chainthrow falcon.
This isn't Brawl. Chaingrabs are an asset, not a crux. That being said, the Chaingrab and the Downsmash are the crux of Peach's ground game.
puff and marth.
I agree that they are better than falcon, but they just don't have the tools to be top 5 IMO. Top 4 are pretty much always fox, falco, marth, and sheik, and after that it doesn't seem that ICs should follow. Peach and jiggs both have superior tools to the ICs, and do not have the drawback of losing a character that would give them a massive disadvantage. Peach and jiggs can deal with fast fallers and floaties, while ICs struggle against floaties.
In your case it's the top 1 characters, but whatever
Well other then Green Ranger, I couldn't find anyone else who played DK
hmmmm
Chandy has a very brutal and intelligent DK
No one forgets these things, they just are actually aware of the 100s of other reason those are terrible unviable characters. DK to a much lesser extent, but still it's not even worth talking about in this meta.
I think that even if armada didn't play peach, and MacD was the next best, Peach would still be consistently placed at 5 or 6 on the tier list. There are few people playing Samus at a high level, nowadays it's really only hugs since plup is a sheik main now, but Samus is almost unanimously agreed upon to be just outside the top 8 on the tier list. Axe has beaten several of the "gods" but Pikachu remains around 10th place on most people's tier lists. Essentially, Pikachu hasn't moved on the tier list since Axe started getting incredible performances, and for good reason - when we look at Pikachu, it is obvious he does not have the tools like top 8 characters do. Even if there were no peach mains getting good performances, I think there would be enough people in the community to critically think about the tools peach has, and she would still be considered a top 8 character.
Fox: Loses less than Falcon loses
I will play Devil's advocate for a second: Falcon has sexy combos on floaties, and can shut down fast fallers and floaties, while ICs can't really shut down floaties, and have to resort to intricate spacing and crackhead reaction times to take advantage of floatie's mistakes, because IC's vertical movement is trash.
I actually think IC's vertical movement is decent. With a 3 frame jumpsquat, decent jump height, a jump speed way above samus tier, and two disjointed (one significantly above IC's position) quick aerials to control newly zoned space. Nair is also not a bad "stop floating there" move. I'd argue that IC's don't challenge floaties in the air much because their ground punish game is just so much more rewarding, and not as much because their vertical movement / zoning is bad.
You make a good point, they do have some good vertical moves, but they can't use their vertical moves to do much against floaties, like other characters with good shffls and even good full hop aerials can...perhaps that's what I should have said, that their shffld aerials aren't very good against floaties, and of course their full hop aerials aren't any better.
