2010 MU Discussion vs. Snake

[ChKn]

Previous Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181156

Snake​

Index:
1. Overview/Normal Play:
- Summaries
- Snake's Style(s) of Play
- Marth's Style(s) of Play
- Positioning/Zoning
2. Killing Methods
- Killing
-Getting Killed
3. Recovery/Edge or Ledge Game
- Recovering as Marth
- Against Snake's recovery
4. Moves
5. Stages
6. Videos

1. Overview/Normal Play

-Summaries

Just make the right reads, and play a smart safe game, without fearing Grenades too much. Oh, don't pick them up. If you do, shield unless you have ample time to throw them away.

~Pierce7d

-Snake's Style(s) of Play


-Marth's Style(s) of Play

Don't be predicable with your fairs either if he's power shielding them your doing it wrong.

Grabs are amazing in this match up, they give you momentum so quickly and easily.

When approaching snake be patient, at the same time don't be scared. know when nades explode and where they are. Don't recklessly get blown up at the same time don't approach awkwardly so that you get Ftilt'd .

when snakes land they like to mix up the timing on their falling bairs if he whiffs it its a free grab and tons of damage on the follow up.

~Blacknight99923

First and foremost, you must NOT FEAR GRENADES. If you play super cautious because you are worried about grenades, you will lose to good Snakes, because you will miss far too many opportunities. Having a good timing of three seconds so you know when grenades will go off is good. I hate watching two players shield for an entire 50 - 120 frames in fear of a grenade.

Now, when grabbing Snake, if he's at higher percents, send him into the air. However, at lower and mid percents fthrow is a godsend, because Snake really doesn't have ANY options, and Dancing Blade is virtually guarenteed as a follow up, even if Snake airdodges. His only way to evade it is to jump (LOL) and I have not yet experimented with SHDB to remove all of Snake's options. I've yet to have a Snake pull out a grenade on my after an fthrow, but if they do, just regrab.

Now, a lot of people have difficulty getting Snake into the air. After all, Snake isn't just going to let you grab him, or get a Uair/Utilt, and grenades make Dancing Blade tricky. For this reason, I find extreme success in pressuring Snake to the edge. It's very easy to pressure Snake once you land a single hit, because his options get cut every time you hit him. At 0 out of grab, I fthrow to Dancing Blade (though you can probably fthrow to Nair to Dancing Blade, I just like to keep my stuff on Snake SUPER safe). Remember that since Snake is a heavy weight character, your throws will have slightly more lag on the end of them (odd but sensible feature bites us here).

Unless Snake reads a roll (and rolling is not generally a good idea vs. Snake, Fair is almost always better unless you need to evade a grenade or something) or just does something amazing, you really shouldn't get hit by Utilt. When you hit around 95% (you should ban Halberd), then you know Snake will be looking to use this move. There isn't really a good reason to get hit by it.

Your worst enemy in this MU is actually Dash Attack. If you try to space Snake instead of simply hitting him, he can easily break zoning with a DA. It's much like Phantasm in this sense, for those of you with Falco experience, but it's actually much easier to punish. Snake players are away that Marth's Fair wrecks them, and it's easy to pick up on DA patterns. If you want a safe way to punish it without leaving yourself open if you guess wrong, simply jump backwards and FFNair. Jab is also an okay option.

Another huge reason why Dancing Blade isn't great in this MU is because it's transcendent. Normally, this is a life-saver for us, because it has great range and we ignore other characters priority with it's blinding speed. However, in this MU, Snake has a more powerful move with equal speed and range (ftilt). If Dancing Blade and Ftilt trade, you will be at disadvantage, because Snake's ftilt has more hitstun than DB1. If you use dtilt or jab and trade, either jab repeatedly to block additional ftilt attempts, or just shield. UpB is too risky in case your opponent shields. Either way, Dancing Blade should ONLY be used to punish during trapping, or finish a combo.

Dtilt is an excellent move. As I said before, you can use it to prevent Snake from landing with good timing, and if Snake pulls a nade on the ground, it's still a safe poke (though a Fair does good as well.) Shield breaker is amazing for obvious reasons.

If you jump out after Snake, and he manages to get away on the cypher, using Breversal shield breaker can help you get back to the stage faster.

If Snake is Cyphering and he's out of range of a Dair but still in range for Fair, you can UpB in a similar fashion to MK. You'll hit the cypher (make sure to DI it appropriately). It can potentially kill, but is just good for dealing more damage mostly. If you don't use your second jump, it can actually set up for a spike if you properly DI the cypher.

Two super important tricks to fighting Snake are these:
A) Pivot grab his fall to the ground at the front of him. Snake can't do anything. Bair hit's behind him, and this pretty much catches all his options. Then Uthrow.

B) If Snake drops low, and then jumps, just grab the edge. Pay attention to the way Snake's like to grab the edge. Snake's don't want to use UpB, so they'll grab the edge when they can. Hogging a jump to the edge is an easy spike after, so don't try and dtilt them, because they're good at spacing a jump to the ledge. Just hog, and then if they go up, punish with Uair from the ledge.

~Pierce7d

Positioning/Zoning

Respect the forward tilt don't try to fighting it outright if you constantly attempt to challenge it you will lose.
Your going to want to hit snakes blind spot which is diagonally in front of him. rising fairs are pretty neat in this match up but watch out when he dash attacks your landing.

I like to space Dtilt a lot in this match up don't over do it but its great against snake.

In regards to his techase marth thankfully is one of the hardest to techase. Since your get up attack goes TOWARD snake first he can't shield it on reaction which means he either has to

shield your get up attack
or go foward to punish a roll

thankfully if he shields to early rolling won't be as big of a problem, mix up when you roll and when you get up attack.

A trick to juggling snake is to juggle diagonally below in FRONT of snake this way if he can't back air you or have any attack that's going to beat your disjointed fair and Uair. Also you will not blow up nades if your juggling him correctly, Nairing snake works well when he is to low to finish his nair (since he'll leave lag when you both hit the ground) in these situations nairing can be preferred since its more likely to beat his airdodge

a mine trick I have is if I am not close enough to the mine and need to detonate it you can tilt your shield so it hits the mine. Also learning how to PS the mine in dash is a great tool)

~Blacknight99923

Now, Fair is your primary zoning tool. However, Snake is a character you should aim to hit, not zone. You beat out ftilt, but if you mess up you're spacing, you're going to get hit. When Snake pulls a grenade, dtilt is actually a fabulous option, because while Snake is holding the grenade in his hand, dtilt will not set it off. Good spacing and proper move selection will always prevent you from setting off grenades. For this reason, Dancing Blade is not as good in this MU as you might imagine, though it still has amazing useful utility for juggles.

~Pierce7d

==================================================

2. Killing Methods

-Killing

Obviously, standard punishing applies if Snake tries to airdodge to the ground in front of you. Expect Snake to live to high percentages, and don't worry about staling your smash attack, be more concerned with racking up damage. If Snake's at 140%, you can refresh half your moveset with a grab and pummeling, and rack up a lot of damage, while putting Snake in a bad place. This is your kill set up. Usmash doesn't kill until over 140% anyway, so don't worry about staling it.

~Pierce7d

-Getting Killed

==================================================

3. Recovery/Edge or Ledge Game

-Recovering as Marth

-Against Snake's Recovery

Once Snake is on the edge, he really doesn't have any reliable way of getting back onto the stage without getting hit. Remember that Snake has 0 landing lag if he's holding a grenade when he lands, so if you're going to punish with dtilt, make sure you swing slightly early to still catch him while he's in the air. Dtilt - Dancing Blade is staple for juggling and pressuring Snake back to the edge.

Now, when you hit Snake offstage, many Snake's like to jump and UpB immediately to escape high. This is your opportunity to Fair Snake, so he doesn't get the bonus of rising super fast. Dairing him while he's not close will be easy. If Snake goes low and tries to C4 himself, footstool.

Now, smart Snakes will recover by going far out, C4ing themselves out of your range, and then UpBing again far above the stage. This is obviously where you set up your juggle. Jump as to Uair Snake. If they pull a grenade, you should space the Uair to tip Snake, and it should not set off the grenade. Be cautious of FF Bairs, and wait for airdodges, but not too long.

~Pierce7d

If you get Snake on the edge, there's really nothing he can do aside from falling off the stage and C4'ing himself to get way from the situation. Everything that Snake does off of a ledge is able is able to countered [not the move =p] and knock him back onto ledge grab range.

- Get up Attack = Shield + F-Throw, Dolphin slash, falling away Fair.
- Get up = F-throw, Falling away aerial, dancing blade, down tilt.
- Roll on stage = Falling away aerial, down-throw
- Jump up = Falling away aerial.

Snake has no viable aerial to get onto the edge as long as you read properly.

~-Ran

 

[Anaky]

I dont understand why we are going over Snake, Dedede and Metaknight again, those matchups have already been discussed (For 2010) and ratios have been made in the Marth Machup Index thread.

Edit: I know this is obviously helpful but i think it would be better if we did some new matchups like Falco, and Diddy, we need to get a new set of ratios for all the characters as soon as possible.

 

[ChKn]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=272693

Show me the links for 2010 for D3. The Snake thread has some posts from 2010, so I should just take the posts from 2010 and put it into a more readable and accessible forum for Snake. If anyone has anything else to contribute that isn't listed, then do so.

The MU for diddy is somewhat up here for 2010: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189473&page=7

If you want to step up and take the initiative to start more MUs and make it into a condensed format like I did with D3, by all means do it. As long as we know how to handle MUs, then it's all good.

And I was gonna do Falco next week.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I dunno if a group discussion was made

I'll throw my 2 cents in.....

Respect the forward tilt don't try to fighting it outright if you constantly attempt to challenge it you will lose.
Your going to want to hit snakes blind spot which is diagonally in front of him. rising fairs are pretty neat in this match up but watch out when he dash attacks your landing.

Don't be predicable with your fairs either if he's power shielding them your doing it wrong.


I like to space Dtilt a lot in this match up don't over do it but its great against snake.


In regards to his techase marth thankfully is one of the hardest to techase. Since your get up attack goes TOWARD snake first he can't shield it on reaction which means he either has to

shield your get up attack
or go foward to punish a roll

thankfully if he shields to early rolling won't be as big of a problem, mix up when you roll and when you get up attack.

A trick to juggling snake is to juggle diagonally below in FRONT of snake this way if he can't back air you or have any attack that's going to beat your disjointed fair and Uair. Also you will not blow up nades if your juggling him correctly, Nairing snake works well when he is to low to finish his nair (since he'll leave lag when you both hit the ground) in these situations nairing can be preferred since its more likely to beat his airdodge


Grabs are amazing in this match up, they give you momentum so quickly and easily.

Learn to SDI nair and dair it isn't to hard but don't hurt yourself taking over 20 damage (and dying really early) because of it

when snakes land they like to mix up the timing on their falling bairs if he whiffs it its a free grab and tons of damage on the follow up.



When approaching snake be patient, at the same time don't be scared. know when nades explode and where they are. Don't recklessly get blown up at the same time don't approach awkwardly so that you get Ftilt'd .


Snake has rather bad ledge options, because of this snakes will recover high keeping hitting him off, in regards to fighting snake offstages free damage> free kill because they expect you to dair their cipher.


edit: a mine trick I have is if I am not close enough to the mine and need to detonate it you can tilt your shield so it hits the mine. Also learning how to PS the mine in dash is a great tool)



I'll think of more when I can

 

[ChKn]

What happens when your shield gets hit with both hits of ftilt? Is there shield stun?

 

[Nike.]

From the other Re-discussion thread:

Vs. Snake has recently become one of my favorite MUs. It's so easy.

First and foremost, you must NOT FEAR GRENADES. If you play super cautious because you are worried about grenades, you will lose to good Snakes, because you will miss far too many opportunities. Having a good timing of three seconds so you know when grenades will go off is good. I hate watching two players shield for an entire 50 - 120 frames in fear of a grenade.

Now, Fair is your primary zoning tool. However, Snake is a character you should aim to hit, not zone. You beat out ftilt, but if you mess up you're spacing, you're going to get hit. When Snake pulls a grenade, dtilt is actually a fabulous option, because while Snake is holding the grenade in his hand, dtilt will not set it off. Good spacing and proper move selection will always prevent you from setting off grenades. For this reason, Dancing Blade is not as good in this MU as you might imagine, though it still has amazing useful utility for juggles.

Now, when grabbing Snake, if he's at higher percents, send him into the air. However, at lower and mid percents fthrow is a godsend, because Snake really doesn't have ANY options, and Dancing Blade is virtually guarenteed as a follow up, even if Snake airdodges. His only way to evade it is to jump (LOL) and I have not yet experimented with SHDB to remove all of Snake's options. I've yet to have a Snake pull out a grenade on my after an fthrow, but if they do, just regrab.

Now, a lot of people have difficulty getting Snake into the air. After all, Snake isn't just going to let you grab him, or get a Uair/Utilt, and grenades make Dancing Blade tricky. For this reason, I find extreme success in pressuring Snake to the edge. It's very easy to pressure Snake once you land a single hit, because his options get cut every time you hit him. At 0 out of grab, I fthrow to Dancing Blade (though you can probably fthrow to Nair to Dancing Blade, I just like to keep my stuff on Snake SUPER safe). Remember that since Snake is a heavy weight character, your throws will have slightly more lag on the end of them (odd but sensible feature bites us here).

Once Snake is on the edge, he really doesn't have any reliable way of getting back onto the stage without getting hit. Remember that Snake has 0 landing lag if he's holding a grenade when he lands, so if you're going to punish with dtilt, make sure you swing slightly early to still catch him while he's in the air. Dtilt - Dancing Blade is staple for juggling and pressuring Snake back to the edge.

Now, when you hit Snake offstage, many Snake's like to jump and UpB immediately to escape high. This is your opportunity to Fair Snake, so he doesn't get the bonus of rising super fast. Dairing him while he's not close will be easy. If Snake goes low and tries to C4 himself, footstool.

Now, smart Snakes will recover by going far out, C4ing themselves out of your range, and then UpBing again far above the stage. This is obviously where you set up your juggle. Jump as to Uair Snake. If they pull a grenade, you should space the Uair to tip Snake, and it should not set off the grenade. Be cautious of FF Bairs, and wait for airdodges, but not too long.

Obviously, standard punishing applies if Snake tries to airdodge to the ground in front of you. Expect Snake to live to high percentages, and don't worry about staling your smash attack, be more concerned with racking up damage. If Snake's at 140%, you can refresh half your moveset with a grab and pummeling, and rack up a lot of damage, while putting Snake in a bad place. This is your kill set up. Usmash doesn't kill until over 140% anyway, so don't worry about staling it.

Unless Snake reads a roll (and rolling is not generally a good idea vs. Snake, Fair is almost always better unless you need to evade a grenade or something) or just does something amazing, you really shouldn't get hit by Utilt. When you hit around 95% (you should ban Halberd), then you know Snake will be looking to use this move. There isn't really a good reason to get hit by it.

Your worst enemy in this MU is actually Dash Attack. If you try to space Snake instead of simply hitting him, he can easily break zoning with a DA. It's much like Phantasm in this sense, for those of you with Falco experience, but it's actually much easier to punish. Snake players are away that Marth's Fair wrecks them, and it's easy to pick up on DA patterns. If you want a safe way to punish it without leaving yourself open if you guess wrong, simply jump backwards and FFNair. Jab is also an okay option.

Another huge reason why Dancing Blade isn't great in this MU is because it's transcendent. Normally, this is a life-saver for us, because it has great range and we ignore other characters priority with it's blinding speed. However, in this MU, Snake has a more powerful move with equal speed and range (ftilt). If Dancing Blade and Ftilt trade, you will be at disadvantage, because Snake's ftilt has more hitstun than DB1. If you use dtilt or jab and trade, either jab repeatedly to block additional ftilt attempts, or just shield. UpB is too risky in case your opponent shields. Either way, Dancing Blade should ONLY be used to punish during trapping, or finish a combo.

Dtilt is an excellent move. As I said before, you can use it to prevent Snake from landing with good timing, and if Snake pulls a nade on the ground, it's still a safe poke (though a Fair does good as well.) Shield breaker is amazing for obvious reasons.

If you jump out after Snake, and he manages to get away on the cypher, using Breversal shield breaker can help you get back to the stage faster.

If Snake is Cyphering and he's out of range of a Dair but still in range for Fair, you can UpB in a similar fashion to MK. You'll hit the cypher (make sure to DI it appropriately). It can potentially kill, but is just good for dealing more damage mostly. If you don't use your second jump, it can actually set up for a spike if you properly DI the cypher.

Two super important tricks to fighting Snake are these:
A) Pivot grab his fall to the ground at the front of him. Snake can't do anything. Bair hit's behind him, and this pretty much catches all his options. Then Uthrow.

B) If Snake drops low, and then jumps, just grab the edge. Pay attention to the way Snake's like to grab the edge. Snake's don't want to use UpB, so they'll grab the edge when they can. Hogging a jump to the edge is an easy spike after, so don't try and dtilt them, because they're good at spacing a jump to the ledge. Just hog, and then if they go up, punish with Uair from the ledge.

I think that Snake vs. Marth is probably even right now, and my opinion on it totters either way depending on the day. At Snes I MMed Ally, and I won game one, but he beat me game two and two stocked me game three. I should've beaten Jesiah IMO, but I SDed (johns, so what). Other than that, I've pretty much been ****** all the Snakes I've played, (I haven't fought Fatal in singles yet but he ***** me at in doubles with ADHD, I beat Razer in friendlies at Genesis in Singles and Doubles.)

Just make the right reads, and play a smart safe game, without fearing Grenades too much. Oh, don't pick them up. If you do, shield unless you have ample time to throw them away.

 

[-Cross-]

Of course there is shield stun, if both hits land depending on spacing you are usually guaranteed a DB but you have to be pretty close to frame perfect on the shield drop and buffering. Shield DI also helps punish his moves.

The MU on the ground simplified essentially comes down to baiting Snake's dash attack. Once you pressure him towards the edge or he goes there voluntarily, he is essentially trapped. His only real out is his dash attack or DACUS. He also has forward roll which is easy to punish. Options become much easier to punish when you expect them. Once near the edge you want to maintain a shorter mid range area essentially the max range of Snake's dash attack and rush in when he pulls the grenade. The goal is to get him off stage and rack up damage and possibly get a kill. Your basic rush-in mixup is between spaced fair and grab. Tipper fair for that shield push back and not detonatin nades and grab to counter the shield happy snake. Besides F-throw is god send in this MU. DB is also not a very good mixup option here while it can be in other MU's.

When off stage covering his high recovery option is usually the better bet. Much more potential for big damage, and Snake's generally opt for the high recovery anyway. And if you get him to recover low to that edge, you can now ledge guard him. Win win. Juggling is nice, but imo Snake is much more vulnerable when he is hanging on that ledge.

Tips that may help tip it in your favor: Learn to spike Snake's low cypher recover so that you will hit the released cypher and be automatically knocked out of your dair post lag and thus able to recover. This allows you to get a certain kill on Snake if he meteor cancelled that first dair, and also allows you to spike Snake without fear of dying.
Learn to footstool Snake after he detonates the C4 on himself.

The MU basically depends on your ability to space well and setup your own openings. Generic as it sounds, Snake's damage will come from punishing you. However, this only occurs when you put yourself in a bad zone, such as close quarters. Good fair spacing avoids this for the most part. Grenades are really a non-issue. Marth's ground speed and aerial movement allows him to get around grenades, just make sure you don't decide to approach Snake from a bad zone. Example: Mid zone is a safe place to be in this MU, but if you decide to start running and Snake chucks that grenade which bounces and hits you somewhere around short mid range. Now you are stuck between a grenade and ftilt, this is what I mean by don't approach from a bad zone, establish safety (clear all grenades) at the short mid zone and approach from there.

This is my strategy against the generic Snake. This will not be your guaranteed win strategy against the likes of Razer or Ally (if he plays Snake) for obvious reasons. The MU is also very easy to study, as most of the times you lose to Snake will be because he got the punishes on you. This means you need to improve basic player skills or learn the types of read the opposing player is making.

55-45 Marth.

 

[Anaky]

Ahh i thought they ahd already been re-discussed, nvm.

 

[Honor]

this MU used to really get on my nerves, but it really is about pressuring him off the stage and setting up the yur juggle game, USmash is awesome in this MU

 

[Dr.Brawl]

I hate this MU.

Marth has to approach marth doesn't have the luxury of sitting back. DB is a bad idea, pressure snake don't let him set up nades. If he ftilts shield, or D tilt. If snake nairs and you are able to DS out of it. Destroy snake on his recovery juggle him. Snake can kill marth really fast because of utilts crazy hit box. As for nades don't worry too much about them because once your inside snake, snake becomes limited and just keep the pressure. Trap snake at the ledge, once there snake options are really limited. Just watch out for dacus/ dash attack.

I agree with Cross, snake is going to win by punishing more than anything else.

6-4 snake's favor.

 

[iFudge]

Its even 50:50 maybe in marths favor abit.

 

[Nike.]

What I think could be useful to discuss is how the matchup works on every legal stage, since just about every other aspect of the matchup has been convered over the years. Raziek did that on the D3 thread and I found it to be by far the most helpful.

 

[ChKn]

^^That

I'll try to update it later on in the week and start on a new MU(Falco).

 

[-Cross-]

I hate this MU.

Marth has to approach marth doesn't have the luxury of sitting back. DB is a bad idea, pressure snake don't let him set up nades. If he ftilts shield, or D tilt. If snake nairs and you are able to DS out of it. Destroy snake on his recovery juggle him. Snake can kill marth really fast because of utilts crazy hit box. As for nades don't worry too much about them because once your inside snake, snake becomes limited and just keep the pressure. Trap snake at the ledge, once there snake options are really limited. Just watch out for dacus/ dash attack.

I agree with Cross, snake is going to win by punishing more than anything else.

6-4 snake's favor.

just noticed this. But I find it strange how you agreed with my opinion yet our MU ratios are so different. Not anything against you, but when you consider all the gay crap Marth can pull for a gimp on Snake, I think you will realize that the MU is at the very least even. At lower levels, it is simply easier for Snake to beat the Marth considering he only needs a fewer amount of moves. The wall is pretty high but once you get past it, Marth definitely goes even with Snake/slight advantage.

 

[-Ran]

The better you become as a player, and the safer you become, the more even this match up becomes.

Low Level, this might as well be 65:35 in Snake's favor. The Marth player has a ton of information and spacing that they have to learn to be optimal in every situation, while the Snake can simply enjoy their free Up Tilt Kills or their tilt damage. Now, as the Marth and Snake players get more skilled, the match up shifts closer and closer to even. There is simply more skill required to operate Marth in the match up, than to utilize Snake.

On stages, Snake is going to be fine on essentially anything that you take him on that's tournament legal in terms of neutrals. When it comes to counterpicks, your best options are Brinstar, Norfair [if available], and Delfino. However, all of them can be hindrances against Snake due to various reasons.

Brinstar - You gain a stage that is constantly throwing the Snake player off his spacing due to the lava. This allows for juggles, free damage, and the potential of tipper nair/fair kills due to the smaller boundaries. Unfortunately, Snake kills even more effective, and if he has the lead will be able to lockdown the stage. The stage does limit grenade camping though.

Norfair - Though rarely a legal stage, the plethora of platforms enable safe pressure at almost any point in the match. More so, there's plenty of room to run when you have the lead. As the lava rises, the death potential of an up-tilt increases dramatically, and one grab on a platform can lead to thirty damage easily for Snake. Furthermore, the outer platforms put you closer to the edge of the stage, which creates easier kills for the Snake.

Delfino - The constantly shifting stage prevents Snake from walling up with his land mine, and most of the transformations do not give Snake much of a benefit. The water stages don't give Snake much, since his spike is unwieldy. The shifting platforms prevent your approaches from being bland and repetitive, and cause the trajectories of grenades to alter drastically.

As characters, Snake and Marth both perform their best on neutrals and so it's a matter of zeroing in on what your opponent is inadequate at dealing with. Many players are quick to assume that Battlefield is the best for against Snake, but the stage affords coverage for Snake from aerial approaches if he remains near a platform.

Perfect Marth beats Perfect Snake, but there aren't any perfect Marths. Every disadvantage in this match up is a product of Marth making a mistake and failing to play safe.