1.1.5 Zelda Changes?

[Meru.]

No, when has Zelda ever had reliable d throw to b air combos?????

I'm so confused, neither of these moves changes yet some video of a person landing up air against NON MOVING opponent pops up and you all lose your ****.

Zelda boards PLS

I usually love joining your Zelda pessimism but this time you're wrong.

Uair changed, it's hitbox has been increased. Because of that stuff like Dthrow > Uair catches people much easier, since you don't have to dash as much as before. One short dash will suffice now. This is very good since Dthrow > Uair has always been a confirm, but it had trouble catching people who DI'd and jumped away.

Now, it is not possible to DI and jump away anymore because Uair will flat out catch you. This leaves only one option for them to escape which is airdodge, creating a 50/50 scenario.

The 50/50 is really hard though. First you have to follow their DI (towards, away or inbetween), then you have to guess correctly, and then you still have to execute everything properly (not dashing too long, actually punishing the airdodge with a lighning kick whis is REALLY challenging). With some getting used to, it could prove quite powerful though.

Zelda is still bad but after all those patches this is the first patch where she finally might see a chance to escape from lowest tier, if everything goes right.

 

[ketchupprecum]

I usually love joining your Zelda pessimism but this time you're wrong.

Uair changed, it's hitbox has been increased. Because of that stuff like Dthrow > Uair catches people much easier, since you don't have to dash as much as before. One short dash will suffice now. This is very good since Dthrow > Uair has always been a confirm, but it had trouble catching people who DI'd and jumped away.

Now, it is not possible to DI and jump away anymore because Uair will flat out catch you. This leaves only one option for them to escape which is airdodge, creating a 50/50 scenario.

The 50/50 is really hard though. First you have to follow their DI (towards, away or inbetween), then you have to guess correctly, and then you still have to execute everything properly (not dashing too long, actually punishing the airdodge with a lighning kick whis is REALLY challenging). With some getting used to, it could prove quite powerful though.

Zelda is still bad but after all those patches this is the first patch where she finally might see a chance to escape from lowest tier, if everything goes right.

We can still read air dodge then fast fall nair into elevator/dsmash. Since each multi-hit of nair does more damage now (2->2.5 front and 1->1.5 back) I am assuming there will be more hitstun now so they can't shield once they are dragged down. Haven't read updates on hitstun of nair yet though.

dthrow DI options https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEWY5l105es

 

[theburningstars]

So, with better intang frames, could Love be used to beat out and lead into a d-throw u-air/nair? More successfully, I mean.

 

[Valamway]

dthrow DI options https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEWY5l105es

I am now cautiously optimistic...
It's hard to believe this is real when her dthrow and parameters are all unchanged.
Is uair really so different that this is a true 50/50?

 

[ketchupprecum]

So, with better intang frames, could Love be used to beat out and lead into a d-throw u-air/nair? More successfully, I mean.

Well if you beat out a move because you timed Naryu's Love would they just get knocked back from the rest of the hits?

I am now cautiously optimistic...
It's hard to believe this is real when her dthrow and parameters are all unchanged.
Is uair really so different that this is a true 50/50?

It was already a thing but I think it is more reliable now because the hitbox size increased.

 

[theburningstars]

Well if you beat out a move because you timed Naryu's Love would they just get knocked back from the rest of the hits?

Well, it'd have to be a dash grap -> d-throw of course, but iirc bkb isn't that large on Love. I think it's plausible, but it needs testing. I can try it out later on tonight and update on the board.

 

[ketchupprecum]

Well, it'd have to be a dash grap -> d-throw of course, but iirc bkb isn't that large on Love. I think it's plausible, but it needs testing. I can try it out later on tonight and update on the board.

KBG was pretty decent on Naryu's Love from my memory. At higher %s I used to tech chase with Faore if they didn't tech the landing (Naryu sends pretty horizontally).

Edit: Also should note that while the intangible frames are frame 5-15 the last hit is frame 28 and the entire move lasts 60 frames. At low % they can probably jump away by the time you input your dash.

 

[Dante777]

Maybe I'm just slow, but people have still been able to airdodge out of my uair even when I follow the DI. That part doesn't seem much different from prepatch. Like the changes though, especially to nair.

 

[KlicKlac]

I've been reading the comments in this thread about the "new" dthrow -> uair kill combo, and to clarify, Zelda has always had the "hoo-hah". Zelda's speed and the start up frame data for our aerials is still the same as it always has been. I've been dthrowing to upair KOs for a year now. And it always has been a 50:50 thing. Basically, if your opponent didn't DI you can just jump right after the dthrow and catch them with the Uair. And if your opponent DI way to the back, you need to run back a split second before jumping and then you can hit them with the Uair. I remember Zylach also saying this somewhere in the Q/A zelda thread.

However, the percentage window for this combo is not as big as you think. Your opponent would need to be at around 90% for it to start killing, but you probably would have taken a lot of damage yourself by then. And the rage would make the dthrow toss the opponent up to high, so they could airdodge before your Uair reaches. But of course, if you anticipate the airdodge, you can do a dragging Nair into a upB elevator KO.

Also, dthrow -> bair was always a thing too. The frame data on bair is still the same as in the past. Bair is obviously a lot harder to hit, so I usually stick with Uair.

tl;dr - Zelda always had a 50:50 hoo-hah kill throw combo. But with a bigger grab range and bigger upair hitbox, it's easier to land now.

 

[Cress!]

No, when has Zelda ever had reliable d throw to b air combos?????

When she's wearing a bunny hood obvs

 

[Rickster]

Wow, we got more changes than I thought. The Dsmash is nice, and the Nayru's buff can potentially be really really good.

I've been reading the comments in this thread about the "new" dthrow -> uair kill combo, and to clarify, Zelda has always had the "hoo-hah". Zelda's speed and the start up frame data for our aerials is still the same as it always has been. I've been dthrowing to upair KOs for a year now. And it always has been a 50:50 thing. Basically, if your opponent didn't DI you can just jump right after the dthrow and catch them with the Uair. And if your opponent DI way to the back, you need to run back a split second before jumping and then you can hit them with the Uair. I remember Zylach also saying this somewhere in the Q/A zelda thread.

However, the percentage window for this combo is not as big as you think. Your opponent would need to be at around 90% for it to start killing, but you probably would have taken a lot of damage yourself by then. And the rage would make the dthrow toss the opponent up to high, so they could airdodge before your Uair reaches. But of course, if you anticipate the airdodge, you can do a dragging Nair into a upB elevator KO.

Also, dthrow -> bair was always a thing too. The frame data on bair is still the same as in the past. Bair is obviously a lot harder to hit, so I usually stick with Uair.

tl;dr - Zelda always had a 50:50 hoo-hah kill throw combo. But with a bigger grab range and bigger upair hitbox, it's easier to land now.

Basically all this regarding the Uair change.
---
I was testing our Uthrow>Uair combo on ZSS, and I got it to consistently combo (and KO) at about 66-70% (no DI though). I'm pretty sure we already had this but there's that. Maybe the hitbox increase makes it easier?

evmaxy54 is the master of Uthrow combos so ask him lol

 

[evmaxy54]

Uair hitbox change is gonna require me to update my notes lol

But for the sake of Uthrow -> Uair & its use as a potential kill option:

Spoiler: OUTDATED UNFINISHED UTHROW -> UAIR NOTES

Uthrow -> Uair (26%)

Sheik: 50-66%
Fox: 46-67%
Falcon: 63-86%, 83-89% (the top %s for both ranges require DI, true combo at 87% can kill on FD with no DI after Uair)*
Greninja: 55-57%

Falco: 51-63%

D3: 78-93% (higher %s require DI)*
LM: 51-77%, 77-80% requires DJ*
Ganon: 70-74% (74% requires DI)*
Mewtwo: 39-53%, 54-61% requires DJ*
ZSS: 50-66%
Shulk: 62-71%*
MK: 46-59%, 60-67% requires DJ (higher %s require DI)*
Zelda: 47-50%*

* = complete

 

[Meru.]

tl;dr - Zelda always had a 50:50 hoo-hah kill throw combo. But with a bigger grab range and bigger upair hitbox, it's easier to land now.

I'm pretty sure that they were just able to DI and jump out of it before, which they can't do now anymore.

 

[KlicKlac]

I'm pretty sure that they were just able to DI and jump out of it before, which they can't do now anymore.

Well, rage definitely is a big factor. If you have too much rage, your opponent can jump out before you can hit them.
And the weight and fallspeed of the opponent factors into the knockback angle from the dthrow too.

I definitely cannot say for sure it works 100% of the time, but just from my experiences of landing dthrow to upair so many times, you should always have been able to track and punish their DI with an Upair, if you are quick enough and they are at the right percentage and you don't have too much rage.

I know Zylach talked about this too, because I learned this from a post of his.

 

[Macchiato]

Me and Zolda tested that if opponents DI dthrow away, bair after a dthrow is true if sweetspotted on most of the cast around 50-60% which can kill depending on stage position and DI

 

[KlicKlac]

Me and Zolda tested that if opponents DI dthrow away, bair after a dthrow is true if sweetspotted on most of the cast around 50-60% which can kill depending on stage position and DI

I definitely am going to start practicing this all the time now lol. It does appear that if the opponent DI dthrow away, landing an upair is very tight and only in a small percentage window. Might be better to go for a Bair.

 

[Lord Renning]

So I've been going online and spamming Nayru's love on everything and everyone to see how far it can go, and gather data on it's effectiveness, as well as see if I was right about it being central to our neutral. Pretty well. The answer is pretty well. I'm hoping to make a montage video, with examples of applications and of how Nayru's Love forced my wiser opponents to take me seriously.

Though my actual executions with Zelda are pretty bad right now, and this is all I'm uploading for tonight. I'll add more to this post later.

 

[ZombieBran]

That's hilarious.
Wonder if that one person who couldn't beat prepatch Nayru's spam rage quit the game now

 

[Rickster]

I'm honestly surprised they buffed it. Nayru's is one of Zelda's most complained about moves by bad players (along with Farore's lol).

Most significant buff for us this patch if you ask me.

 

[Furret]

I'm honestly surprised they buffed it. Nayru's is one of Zelda most complained about moves by bad players (along with Farore's lol).

Most significant buff for us this patch if you ask me.

Mine would be grab range

 

[Valamway]

Mine would be grab range

Maybe if they gave us back our pivot grab from 3DS release...

Speaking of, does anyone know what the best grab range we have is?
Is DACG better than dash grab?
Does this buff to range improve our Roll-Cancel Pivot Grab at all?

 

[Furret]

Maybe if they gave us back our pivot grab from 3DS release...

Speaking of, does anyone know what the best grab range we have is?
Is DACG better than dash grab?
Does this buff to range improve our Roll-Cancel Pivot Grab at all?

all grabs have more range, I believe the way they handled it was moving the grab boxes a unit forward.
So it shortest to farthest standing->dashing->pivot
pivot got a third of the range it lost from the previous nerf back

 

[Valamway]

all grabs have more range, I believe the way they handled it was moving the grab boxes a unit forward.
So it shortest to farthest standing->dashing->pivot
pivot got a third of the range it lost from the previous nerf back

Right, I know all the base grabs moved forward.
So that means all the various cancel-grabs are better too right?
DACG is a frame or two slower than dash grab but has better burst range.
RCPG can't be done from a dash but has the best burst range.

 

[Furret]

So that means all the various cancel-grabs are better too right?

yes because all of them use some variation of some grab
as an example when you DACG, you're just doing a dash grab, dash grab was improved so DACG was improved

 

[Lord Renning]

Thank you folks, I'll be here all week.

 

[Valamway]

So Nayru's Love used to be a terrible option onstage against a Little Mac.
But now instead of taking extremely precise timing to dodge his smashes with it, now it takes extremely precise timing on their part to not get beaten outright.

Our intangibility outlasts every super armored hitbox frame he has.
I think it outlasts every armored or invincible hitbox in the whole game, not including counters.

Nayru's Love is actually a shield now.

 

[AncientCode42]

Wow. Nayru's Love feels like it should be now a shield. I'm interested to see how many more things it can shield against.

 

[Rickster]

So Nayru's Love used to be a terrible option onstage against a Little Mac.
But now instead of taking extremely precise timing to dodge his smashes with it, now it takes extremely precise timing on their part to not get beaten outright.

Our intangibility outlasts every super armored hitbox frame he has.
I think it outlasts every armored or invincible hitbox in the whole game, not including counters.

Nayru's Love is actually a shield now.

...wow, never even thought of that. I bet this would be good against Sonic too, since that's another MU where Nayru's trades a bunch. This might actually make those MUs less torturous!

Actually, this could help a lot against any fast characters, like Fox, Sheik, and Yoshi.

Would be cool if we could stuff Sheik's Fair and the other two's Nairs...

 

[Lord Renning]

KlicKlac reported yesterday that it was fantastic against a Sonic they played. Nayru's straight out beats a ton of moves now, both in the ground and in the air.

 

[buzzard]

I agree, it's Zelda's best anti air move both on the ground and in the air, though you can't spam it without taking some risks. I had a lot of instances where the opponent tried to dair me on the ground or chase me in the air only to have their attacks fly past what used to be the vulnerable spots (the top and bottom parts of nayru's love) then get hit.

It's a really good move now, and if her attacker is extremely aggresive without measure it will help her a lot. She can kinda wall her enemies now. But as I said before, you can't just spam it in every instance. And in the air you have to be more careful with the timing since it kills momentum.

What I like to do is jump towards the enemy while they're falling down to bait an attack from them then use Nayru and watch as they get hit on their fall.

Oh and it also works as a landing tool against attacks that do not have that much range, don't try it against Ike lol.

 

[Lord Renning]

Having an answer to heavy pressure is so good. I think it covers enough instances to be good, without being broken. You still need to use the rest of your kit, and kind of walling creates a game.

I was playing someone the other day who tried to rush me down, and got walled out by Nayru. So he started using run up to shield, which beat Nayru. That meant I could use our extended grab range to beat his shield. When he tried to run up and space against Nayru, I hit him with an 11% jab. If he shielded the jab, we're positive on shield, so he got caught in a range where I could jab and tilt or f-smash him with disjoint magic, or jab into grab. When he started running or rolling back after jab on shield, I punished with a dash attack, and if he rolled behind Nayru or down smash. Pretty sure Fox would have just killed me with rushdown previously.

 

[Quantumpen]

Nayru's buff is huge. I don't main Zelda, but I like using her since I've loved the character for a long time. I was doing some friendlies vs Sheik this weekend and Nayru's was putting in work. Usually, I just get wrecked in this MU -- but Nayru's is really annoying to deal with for rush-down characters. It'll stuff nearly every approach option she has forcing her to camp you out or you to play mind games. She's good at camping so it's still a pretty difficult match-up, but you can actually PLAY now since Nayru's is such a commanding response to pressure.

 

[SM Mystic]

So Dabuz said Nayru's Love Intan buff didn't matter much. I'm laughing my ass off.

 

[Rickster]

I feel like the people bringing Nayru's down don't actually know the frame data behind the move, which results in them not seeing why adding intan. to the latter part of the move is better than the former. Even AceStar made this mistake in his recent Zelda undefeatable.

But then again there aren't many people paying attention to that buff because "zomg Zelda HooHah", lol.

 

[Lord Renning]

Nayru's buff is huge. I don't main Zelda, but I like using her since I've loved the character for a long time. I was doing some friendlies vs Sheik this weekend and Nayru's was putting in work. Usually, I just get wrecked in this MU -- but Nayru's is really annoying to deal with for rush-down characters. It'll stuff nearly every approach option she has forcing her to camp you out or you to play mind games. She's good at camping so it's still a pretty difficult match-up, but you can actually PLAY now since Nayru's is such a commanding response to pressure.

Zelda should be pretty good at this MU now, since Sheik lost kill confirms, and got weight reduction. More than likely she'll end up facing a rage Zelda who can kill her at like. I don't know. 50?

 

[buzzard]

Zelda should be pretty good at this MU now, since Sheik lost kill confirms, and got weight reduction. More than likely she'll end up facing a rage Zelda who can kill her at like. I don't know. 50?

Elevator kills her at like 25% if she doesn't DI properly against a max rage Zelda. A Sheik that does not manage to end Zelda's stock first should be very wary because it's very likely that Zelda will have high rage.

And that was before the first weight nerf.

 

[.Shìkì]

I feel like the people bringing Nayru's down don't actually know the frame data behind the move, which results in them not seeing why adding intan. to the latter part of the move is better than the former. Even AceStar made this mistake in his recent Zelda undefeatable.

But then again there aren't many people paying attention to that buff because "zomg Zelda HooHah", lol.

Speaking of AceStar, is that falling Nair into Elevator he tried to use the whole time true or not, or rage dependend or w/e?

 

[buzzard]

Speaking of AceStar, is that falling Nair into Elevator he tried to use the whole time true or not, or rage dependend or w/e?

I believe you have to hit with the very first hits or the very last hits for it to confirm. It can be a true combo in some situations.

And I think that it has to be fast falled. I always do it like that but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[SM Mystic]

Fast Falled Nair follows up into just about everything except Uair, and I think Fair and Bair. And obviously specials other than Farore's.

 

[KlicKlac]

Something I haven't seen discussed yet - one HUGE thing about the jab damage increase is that it is very good on shield now! The 11% damage, along with the previous patch that increased attacks' shield stun, makes it more possible to shield break with repeated jabs!

I fought a Kirby who I caught shielding. I immediately jabbed, then jabbed again, then did a dash attack to finish off the shield. The guy had no idea jab could kill his shield so much. The extra damage on jab equates to extra stun, so if your opponent is not expecting it, you can catch them holding shield too long until they realize too late that their shield is gone!