1.0.8 Lucina Changed: Jab

[Freelance Spy]

Nair can true combo into up special at kill percents... I tested on mario and it killed him around 128% in the starting position...
Also any opponent hit by jab1 cant escape a forward tilt in time with any option at around 70% or more even though it doesnt register as a true combo...

The combo counter does not actually work as definitive proof if something works or does not. Always practince with a friend, testing every possible DI, shield, interrupt attack etc.

 

[H-O-G]

Jab1> jab2 possible tumble into a foxtrot fsmash, jab1> jab1> jab2, jab1> grab> dthrow> upair/bair. There are several others but these are the ones that have been reliable for me. Also, the jab1 keeps opps at bay and iz generally safe.

These mixups work for me so give them a try

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Hello all. Just wanted to make a list of all the Lucina changes (frame-wise) that I found:

Jab 1: Self Hit-lag reduced by 2 frames, 6 -> 4.

Jab 1: IASA frame moved back by 2 frames.

Jab 2: Self Hit-lag reduced by 2 frames, 6 -> 4.

F-tilt: Self Hit-lag increased by 1 frame, 8 -> 9.

You can also see the knockback/angle changes on her jab in the gifs as well, which have been noted already.

This is in addition to the changes she shares with Marth:

Jab 1 total frame count increased, from 26 -> 28.

Jab 2 total frame count increased, from 26 -> 28.

U-tilt total frames reduced from 42 -> 39.

N-air landing lag reduced from 15 -> 12.

Dolphin Slash: Self hit-lag increased by 2 frames, 4 -> 6.

Crescent Slash: Self hit-lag increased by 2 frames, 3 -> 5.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Does the self hitlag changes affect us in a positive or negative way?

Could it indicate knockback changes?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

The jab hitlag would make the jabs safer, but the 2 additional frames of recovery negates that (so advantage on block didn't change). However, since Marth didn't get a hit-lag change on non-tippered jab while he also got 2 extra frames of recovery, Lucina's jab now matches Marth's untippered jab in terms of block advantage.

The f-tilt hit-lag increase makes us 1 frame worse on block.

 

[Freelance Spy]

The jab hitlag would make the jabs safer, but the 2 additional frames of recovery negates that (so advantage on block didn't change). However, since Marth didn't get a hit-lag change on non-tippered jab while he also got 2 extra frames of recovery, Lucina's jab now matches Marth's untippered jab in terms of block advantage.

The f-tilt hit-lag increase makes us 1 frame worse on block.

Not good for our hope inspiring princess. Hopefully this'll get better later.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

The Ftilt hitlag increase kinda makes sense seeing as it also got a 1% damage buff. @ LordWilliam1234 would you say that the extra damage vs. the extra frame of hitlag cause us to break even in terms of safety? Because more damage should imply more shieldstun, at least afaik.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

The Ftilt hitlag increase kinda makes sense seeing as it also got a 1% damage buff. @ LordWilliam1234 would you say that the extra damage vs. the extra frame of hitlag cause us to break even in terms of safety? Because more damage should imply more shieldstun, at least afaik.

F-tilt's shieldstun didn't change, it's still 4 frames of shieldstun with 8 frames of opponent shield-lag, while Lucina has 9 frames of hit-lag (which is the same on shield as it is on hit).

I updated Lucina's frame data on my frame data sheet accordingly.

 

[Wnyke]

Well I never felt Ftilt as a safe option... i always used it as a punish move against opponents that have already committed to an option and Fsmash would be too slow to work... I even prefer shield breaker over Ftilt since Ftilt is so punishable...

 

[the101]

I play a aggro marth.

I read this as "I play Aggron" and got very confused.

 

[Neckbeards]

Wait, people still use this character?

 

[sunfallSeraph]

Wait, people still use this character?

*tips fedora* M'troll. May I just say that you're looking positively radiant this fine afternoon?

 

[Neckbeards]

*tips fedora* M'troll. May I just say that you're looking positively radiant this fine afternoon?

Not a troll. Please do not make false assumptions about me when you don't even remotely know who I am

Anyways, I haven't seen a single Lucina since Roy was released.
Lucina is one of the lowest tier characters in the game and isn't a very competant character since there are so many better options out there.

 

[H-O-G]

I read this as "I play Aggron" and got very confused.

Aggro just simply means aggressive.

 

[the101]

Aggro just simply means aggressive.

I know what it means, friend. I just thought my initial assumption would've been found funny by some people.

I was wrong.

 

[H-O-G]

I know what it means, friend. I just thought my initial assumption would've been found funny by some people.

I was wrong.

Lol o my bad, you sounded serious so I thought you did not know.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

Not a troll. Please do not make false assumptions about me when you don't even remotely know who I am

Anyways, I haven't seen a single Lucina since Roy was released.
Lucina is one of the lowest tier characters in the game and isn't a very competant character since there are so many better options out there.

All snark aside, the answer to your question is yes, people still play this character. She has her own subforum like every other character, she has tournament representation like every other character, and she has a metagame that people attempt to explore and flesh out like every other character. I appreciate your warning as to how ineffectual the character is, and that sure is an opinion that plenty of people hold, but if you come into a character's subforum with flippant comments that amount to 'lol does this character still exist she's so trash', you probably shouldn't expect to be met with the time of day. If you're here to learn about Lucina, then by all means; there are resources available on this subforum and players who can help. Otherwise, perhaps we can agree to cease derailing this thread with unhelpful posts like the one I am presently writing. It has probably run its course already regardless, but people who come through looking for the patch changes probably don't want to sift through pages of pointless arguments and fluff.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

That doesn't really matter though, in light of Lucina. Even without Roy, she'd still be worse than Marth, and Marth isn't in the highest of spots right now anyway.

What i find disturbing is how characters like Lucina, Zelda and Samus continue to exist, patch after patch, and actually receive changes, but remain underwhelming by design. In Lucina's case it's as simple as Sakurai literally saying she's Marth Lite, which just kind of dooms her by concept.

DUde, you must have never seen any good players for samus, zelda, or any character that you have in mind.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Jab1> jab2 possible tumble into a foxtrot fsmash, jab1> jab1> jab2, jab1> grab> dthrow> upair/bair. There are several others but these are the ones that have been reliable for me. Also, the jab1 keeps opps at bay and iz generally safe.

These mixups work for me so give them a try

Jab1> jab2 possible tumble into a foxtrot fsmash, jab1> jab1> jab2, jab1> grab> dthrow> upair/bair. There are several others but these are the ones that have been reliable for me. Also, the jab1 keeps opps at bay and iz generally safe.

These mixups work for me so give them a try

I don't think I've ever noticed tumble animation. What does it look like so I can capitalize on this? Is there a thread about it? O.o

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

Okay so yeah jab is good for combos starting and stuf now and that's great, but idk if anyone has noticed something else. Both Lucina and Marth cans use Nair to approach now, like Roy. I am not making this up, and I'm not exactly wrong. I've played matches and I actually can approach safely with Nair. They did reduce the frames of end lag on the move. I'm amazed I haven't heard much mention of this. Has anybody really noticed?

 

[MOI-ARI]

Honest question. I use Marth as my "best Secondary" and i've happened to tinker with Lucina at times too, sometimes finishing an enemy two to one strike earlier than Marth. I feel i can be more aggressive with her and fluid across a stage. Though im not sure why.

Is there anything that truly gives her an edge over, or challenge Marth? ...or rather performs better with ,than Marth? (other than consistent damage her blade) Is there anything frame specific,that's different as in faster,slower,different iasa, hitbox..ect

Im simply wondering not trying to offend in any way, be sure of that o_o"

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

Honest question. I use Marth as my "best Secondary" and i've happened to tinker with Lucina at times too, sometimes finishing an enemy two to one strike earlier than Marth. I feel i can be more aggressive with her and fluid across a stage. Though im not sure why.

Is there anything that truly gives her an edge over, or challenge Marth? ...or rather performs better with ,than Marth? (other than consistent damage her blade) Is there anything frame specific,that's different as in faster,slower,different iasa, hitbox..ect

Im simply wondering not trying to offend in any way, be sure of that o_o"

No, there really isn't. If you can play Marth right, then you can play Lucina. Honestly it's just whichever you prefer playing

 

[Moydow]

The only difference apart from the sword is that Lucina is slightly shorter. This gives her a smaller hurtbox than Marth, but also reduces her range slightly.

 

[MOI-ARI]

The only difference apart from the sword is that Lucina is slightly shorter. This gives her a smaller hurtbox than Marth, but also reduces her range slightly.

Oh yeah her range was always shorter to Marth's. But literally 'slightly ' To the point here they only did that so Marth can just barely by a scrape, beat her to the hit at good range. :/

But that's true! I never thought of that. Her hurtbox being smaller. Even smaller by a few pixels can help in certain spacing situations. Maybe. I think that evens out with her range being cut to probably the exact same degree. hmm

 

[Funkermonster]

Not really sure how I feel about these buffs. At first, I thought the jab buff was awesome, but then I switched thoughts to that its nothing to write home about, and now after finding about the other buffs I'm not so sure. There was a time I mained Lucina myself, but then along the way when Wii U hit us I grew more interested in and than her, the former of whom has become my main and best character now, the latter I've also kinda forgotten about. When I began playing with customs, I found myself giving her another go round since I was much impressed by Crescent Slash and Dashing Assault, and now with Jab1 sending opponents upwards it actually links with the 2nd hit now (something that always annoyed me with Marcina) and I've gotten a few kills with Jab1 > Fsmash, but I'm not so sure how long I'll get away with that. I don't really know what this'll mean for the character's future competitively to be honest, but it is tempting me to give her another chance.

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

Not really sure how I feel about these buffs. At first, I thought the jab buff was awesome, but then I switched thoughts to that its nothing to write home about, and now after finding about the other buffs I'm not so sure. There was a time I mained Lucina myself, but then along the way when Wii U hit us I grew more interested in and than her, the former of whom has become my main and best character now, the latter I've also kinda forgotten about. When I began playing with customs, I found myself giving her another go round since I was much impressed by Crescent Slash and Dashing Assault, and now with Jab1 sending opponents upwards it actually links with the 2nd hit now (something that always annoyed me with Marcina) and I've gotten a few kills with Jab1 > Fsmash, but I'm not so sure how long I'll get away with that. I don't really know what this'll mean for the character's future competitively to be honest, but it is tempting me to give her another chance.

Have you tried using Nair as an approach? It's viable now. Jab1 to fsmash is also very good. I do agree it's not always garaunteed, but it is a good option because it's not always expected. The buffs are very good and still kinda being explored in my opinion, even though they're small. I would like a fair buff tho. That'd be nice

 

[aBlackCat]

Okay so yeah jab is good for combos starting and stuf now and that's great, but idk if anyone has noticed something else. Both Lucina and Marth cans use Nair to approach now, like Roy. I am not making this up, and I'm not exactly wrong. I've played matches and I actually can approach safely with Nair. They did reduce the frames of end lag on the move. I'm amazed I haven't heard much mention of this. Has anybody really noticed?

The data has been extracted fully. If its not in the tables its only in your head. So go check there.

 

[MOI-ARI]

@ TheBlueSpirit

There's definitely reduced Landing lag on Nair. By like 2 or 3 frames. Same for Uair.
But no I won't say nair is 'safe' But it seems you can true combo with it at high percentage

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

@ TheBlueSpirit

There's definitely reduced Landing lag on Nair. By like 2 or 3 frames. Same for Uair.
But no I won't say nair is 'safe' But it seems you can true combo with it at high percentage

I did some research and it has less landing lag frames than that of Roy's. So if anything it is the most viable approach option Lucina and Marth have

 

[Funkermonster]

Would've honestly preferred Fair to have its landing lag reduced instead of Nair, but this is cool I guess. Still don't know if all the buffs are enough to escape low tier tho, can't say I'm as optimistic about it as I'd like to be.

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

Yes fair still really needs to be buffed. As for low tier......for me I think she wasn't "low-tier" but more of a "borderline viable" character. Now it's a bit more than that I'd say, but the buff didn't cover other things that both marth and Lucina could really use so not by much. Yet.

 

[Funkermonster]

A lot of low tiers are borderline viable though since this is a balanced game in general, unless your name is Mii Swordfighter or maybe Samus & Zelda.

• Her recovery sucks
• She doesn't get much of a reward from her throws
• Besides Dtilt, most of her attacks have bad frame data and take too long to end, almost none of them are safe on shield unless you're godly at spacing.
• Has a lot of trouble killing, especially without the tipper

I hope not to drag this off-topic or start any wars here, but the general consensus is (or at least was) that she's not very good, sadly. I don't really know f the patch changes any of these, at least not by a significant margin.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

A lot of low tiers are borderline viable though since this is a balanced game in general, unless your name is Mii Swordfighter or maybe Samus & Zelda.

• Her recovery sucks
• She doesn't get much of a reward from her throws
• Besides Dtilt, most of her attacks have bad frame data and take too long to end, almost none of them are safe on shield unless you're godly at spacing.
• Has a lot of trouble killing, especially without the tipper

I hope not to drag this off-topic or start any wars here, but the general consensus is (or at least was) that she's not very good, sadly. I don't really know f the patch changes any of these, at least not by a significant margin.

Customs are a big factor in the first two criticisms, I believe; Dashing Assault and Dolphin Jump give her better options for both horizontal and vertical recovery scenarios, although Dolphin Slash is already a fine vertical recovery given the invincibility and ability to stab through the ledge before snapping. If you want more from throws, Fthrow to Crescent Slash is a true combo until mid-late percents, and CS can also combo out of grab releases on some characters, at kill percents, even, IIRC. And yeah, the patch actually does help with the last point. Jab sets up into Fsmash at kill percents, although it still isn't a true combo; still, it's a very real threat and can be applied as a trap with conditioning, I should think. If that isn't netting you the kill, Dolphin Slash's buffed knockback gives Lucina a viable OOS kill option, and if all else fails there is still Uthrow.

I will agree with you on your third point though, there's not much we can do about that one. Lucina isn't designed to terrorize opponents with safe, unpunishable buttons like Sheik and ZSS are. She's more focused on trapping and reacting to overextensions. I do feel your pain though. Girl really feels like she should be hitting harder for how much she struggles to recover from her own moves, lol.

 

[Funkermonster]

Customs are a big factor in the first two criticisms, I believe; Dashing Assault and Dolphin Jump give her better options for both horizontal and vertical recovery scenarios, although Dolphin Slash is already a fine vertical recovery given the invincibility and ability to stab through the ledge before snapping. And yeah, the patch actually does help with the last point. Jab sets up into Fsmash at kill percents, although it still isn't a true combo; still, it's a very real threat and can be applied as a trap with conditioning, I should think. If that isn't netting you the kill, Dolphin Slash's buffed knockback gives Lucina a viable OOS kill option, and if all else fails there is still Uthrow.

I will agree with you on your third point though, there's not much we can do about that one. Lucina isn't designed to terrorize opponents with safe, unpunishable buttons like Sheik and ZSS are. She's more focused on trapping and reacting to overextensions. I do feel your pain though. Girl really feels like she should be hitting harder for how much she struggles to recover from her own moves, lol.

This I definitely disagree with. Yeah, the distance may be okay vertically but horizontally its crap tbh. Knock her out of her double jump, and she's not very likely to make a comeback. It doesn't sweetspot the ledge either and is only invincible on startup, and attacks that hit below the stage like the dsmashes of , , and can potentially still hit you out of it and send you flying back. Pretty bad recovery overall in my honest opinion, not Little Mac bad (and thank god), but still bad. A few of the other things are questionable:

• At first I thought Dolphin Jump was great, but at the same time the tradeoff is that it no longer hitbox. Its kind of hard to recommend any recovery that deals no damage unless you can angle it like Rosalina's or Palutena's to make it less predictable and mix it up, and unfortunately it doesn't come with that luxury. Even if you aren't killed, you're still likely to take damage that brings you closer to your death percents. I don't exactly think its bad like Dolphin Slash, but I'm not so sure I'd call it great either.
• I personally prefer to keep Shield Breaker, or else I worry about beating those who like to shield a lot. Dashing Assault doesn't deal nearly as much shield damage and has like 20 frames of endlag, and mostt of her moveset is already laggy enough as it is. Definitely better as a recovery (if you're not careful, your opponent can punish its lag and throw you off again tho), but I personally don't think its worth it.
• Up Throw isn't a great kill move, doesn't kill until around 140% without rage unless you're on a stage with a low ceiling like Halberd. Its not nearly as powerful as 's up throw, not really strong enough to threaten shields at least.

I agree with your main point though, she's definitely better with customs and with them she can actually do stuff. And Dolphin Slash being a kill move, did not know that. Will try it out next time I play, thanks. Without customs though, her future does not look great, and unfortunately my region is only becoming more resistant to them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucina's d-tilt is about -5 on shield drop when spaced well. Her nair is -2 when spaced well and you land right as it hits. Generally that will be around -4 with bad timing. Remember this is taking shield drop into account. Some tether grabbers can still grab you.

Still those are both hella safe tools.

Step your spacing up guys.

btw what else does lucina need? Grab reward? That means Roy wouldnt matter. So no thats out. Better recovery on fair? So you want easy mode walls like Brawl that invalidate half the cast?

What exactly do you want from this character that wouldnt break the game or her archetype?

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

Honestly when I say Lucina "needs" to get buffed I really mean it would be nice if she was buffed. I have no problem with how she is tight now truth to be told, and nobody has even proven her worth with the buffs she just got yet.
Maybe we should be proving that guys.

I'm already out to do that with Doc and he wasn't even buffed.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

This I definitely disagree with. Yeah, the distance may be okay vertically but horizontally its crap tbh. Knock her out of her double jump, and she's not very likely to make a comeback. It doesn't sweetspot the ledge either and is only invincible on startup, and attacks that hit below the stage like the dsmashes of , , and can potentially still hit you out of it and send you flying back. Pretty bad recovery overall in my honest opinion, not Little Mac bad (and thank god), but still bad. A few of the other things are questionable:

• At first I thought Dolphin Jump was great, but at the same time the tradeoff is that it no longer hitbox. Its kind of hard to recommend any recovery that deals no damage unless you can angle it like Rosalina's or Palutena's to make it less predictable and mix it up, and unfortunately it doesn't come with that luxury. Even if you aren't killed, you're still likely to take damage that brings you closer to your death percents. I don't exactly think its bad like Dolphin Slash, but I'm not so sure I'd call it great either.
• I personally prefer to keep Shield Breaker, or else I worry about beating those who like to shield a lot. Dashing Assault doesn't deal nearly as much shield damage and has like 20 frames of endlag, and mostt of her moveset is already laggy enough as it is. Definitely better as a recovery (if you're not careful, your opponent can punish its lag and throw you off again tho), but I personally don't think its worth it.
• Up Throw isn't a great kill move, doesn't kill until around 140% without rage unless you're on a stage with a low ceiling like Halberd. Its not nearly as powerful as 's up throw, not really strong enough to threaten shields at least.

I agree with your main point though, she's definitely better with customs and with them she can actually do stuff. And Dolphin Slash being a kill move, did not know that. Will try it out next time I play, thanks. Without customs though, her future does not look great, and unfortunately my region is only becoming more resistant to them.

Regarding Dolphin Slash, I see your points, but I guess I don't feel it's quite so dire? The startup invincibility won't save you from attacks like the ones you mentioned, yes, but the ledge snap vulnerability frame applies to everyone across the board; it's an engine quirk, not something specific to Lucina. If you're on a stage with a sloped underside like Battlefield, you can Dolphin Slash under the stage and ride the slope to the ledge for maximum safety. It's far from foolproof, sure, but it's better than what I'm used to, which is having no hitbox above me whatsoever (lol Robin). :b I don't get a lot of opportunity to play actual humans though, so if you say you're going to tournament and getting gimped 8/10 times, I'll believe you.

And yeah, you're totally right about the downsides to her customs; Lucina isn't named Pikachu or Palutena, so she doesn't get customs that are just straight upgrades. There was a lot of hype over Crescent Slash for a while, but with the Dolphin Slash buffs... meh? CS may still be more consistently useful, but god I hate recovering with that ****. I'm good and used to my terrible vertical-oriented recoveries. XP Anyways, yeah, there are always going to be trade-offs, but at least Lucina has lots of usable customs for counterpicking. They have their purposes, you just have to keep the aforementioned trade-offs in mind. I don't feel that she's hosed without her customs though, I'm starting over again with learning her using defaults and she still feels good to me. Just gotta work on spacing those safe moves and not YOLO throwing out the unsafe ones, as EL said.

On that note... buffs? I really don't know at this point. I don't have the experience with the character/archetype to make a super insightful statement on top of what's already been said. If we're not giving her dumb tools like Brawl Fair and we're not changing her to Roy lite instead of Marth lite, then... maybe even more damage buffs??? Although that begs the question of how much more damage she can get until she starts outpacing Marth's rewards. Only other idea I have is less endlag on moves that aren't Fair, but then you risk creating the same problem of the impenetrable wall of disjoints. I'd love to have less endlag on Ftilt, but that could be bad. Perhaps give her back the like... two pixels of range she lacks over Marth while letting her keep the two pixels less of hurtbox? Hell, I'd settle for a SFX buff that makes me feel like her Falchion, while looking cooler than Marth's, is not actually just a glorified metal bat with pillows strapped to the sides. XP

 

[LucinaNab1]

LOL I can totally agree with the whole SFX thing. It doesn't make any sense at all, but somehow I play way differently with Marth than I do with Lucina, simply because he sounds and looks different. Call it a strange mental block. I just feel overall that I suck with Marth way more. And even then, I'm only a mediocre middle of the road Lucina at best. But yeah, the sounds! For reasons unknown, I prefer Melee Marth's sound effects. The Nair change especially throws me off. It's interesting how such subtle things can affect me...

 

[Wintropy]

LOL I can totally agree with the whole SFX thing. It doesn't make any sense at all, but somehow I play way differently with Marth than I do with Lucina, simply because he sounds and looks different. Call it a strange mental block. I just feel overall that I suck with Marth way more. And even then, I'm only a mediocre middle of the road Lucina at best. But yeah, the sounds! For reasons unknown, I prefer Melee Marth's sound effects. The Nair change especially throws me off. It's interesting how such subtle things can affect me...

Pit is my main, yet I can't play Dark Pit for the life of me.

I love Lucina, yet I have no connection to Marth.

These things definitely matter.

Identity is very important in a game founded on favourite characters.

 

[ReRaze]

Pit is my main, yet I can't play Dark Pit for the life of me.

I love Lucina, yet I have no connection to Marth.

These things definitely matter.

Identity is very important in a game founded on favourite characters.

You have no idea how true this is for me too....I dont even know why, I can't play Dark Pit or Marth at all.