[#05] Ice Climbers MU Discussion Thread 2010

[Clai]

Lol at Kalm believing in perfection. Nobody is free from misstakes, small or huge. Stop theorycrafting without yourself even having played any good IC. MUs seen in practice>>>>> MUs that are just theorycrafted, like Sheik. Also, not many people will take Ganon very seriously, you should also remember that.

While this is all true, we 're talking about matchup ratios, which we have to consider both players performing at the optimal level of play. We can't take into consideration human factors in a match-up discussion. Yes, most of the time we will be going up against players who use sub-optimal strategies and don't know enough about Ganon's weaknesses to exploit them to the fullest. That doesn't mean that we can just ignore what the other player is capable of if you have to go up against a player that can do exactly that.

This is not taking away from Verm's achievements in any way. Verm is doing the perfect thing by taking it player by player, fighting the other person's tendencies, and taking advantage of any possible opening the opponent might give. However, we cannot let personal accomplishments get in the way of the reality of the matchup, which is if the IC's abuse every possible strategy that they can against Ganon perfectly, then Ganon has virtually no chance of winning.

I'm going to repeat this and if someone says anything that goes in full defiance of this statement, I'm going to rage. Suboptimal =/= bad

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Completely unwinnable. Our only chance is our opponent screwing up.

Basically, the closer to perfect the IC main is, the closer this approaches 0:100. Probably starting at about 40:60 for someone completely inexperienced with the ICs (but still a competitive player, it's not hard to beat a casual playing the ICs)

 

[A2ZOMG]

On paper everyone agrees that the ICs are totally unwinnable for Ganon and by far the worst matchup that ever existed.

Given that humans are susceptible to making certain types of mistakes though...I find Verm's insight pretty intriguing.

I firmly believe the matchup is not quite 0-100, but more like:

FTHROW : TOO GOOD

Given that F-throw damage is 13, and TOO GOOD is over 9000, it's basically a 0.1 : 99.9 matchup.

Yes kids remember, F-throw is TOO GOOD against the Ice Climbers. Like by far, the single best IC separating throw in the game.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Nah, it's ruined by the fact it's on Ganondorf.

 

[Exalted]

I bet not even 'Nado would be a good Ganon move.

 

[MetalPat]

Was the match recorded?

If he/she is desyncing blizzards and not approaching (while approaching when needed to), then that's good. But according to your post it seems he/she was only able to grab you twice the two matches you beat him/her, then something's wrong.

almost a year old, but here is one i found with verm and IC.
both did play well but IC ****ed up a couple times...

 

[Vermanubis]

almost a year old, but here is one i found with verm and IC.
both did play well but IC ****ed up a couple times...

That match is a bad reference, sadly. It was just a friendly from GROAT, which was approaching almost a year ago lol

 

[MetalPat]

That match is a bad reference, sadly. It was just a friendly from GROAT, which was approaching almost a year ago lol

well i mean bad or not, it can help people, like me, see a general over view of what ganon and IC can do in this MY instead of going in blind and just using what we have read. it is the ability to see the approaches.

a year or not, not a major amount of meta game has been improved for IC in the last year.

 

[Vermanubis]

In that match, both of us sucked pretty hard, and it's not so much metagame improvement, so much as it is neither of us were playing at the top of our respective character's games at the time.