What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[DunnoBro]

Custom infinites were removed though lol

Jank is way too subjective and buzzwordy for me to consider it a valid label for "crap that nintendo should nerf but didn't" especially when they actually have.

There's plenty of weird crap in default like luma killing at 0% that could easily be considered "jank", yet it hasn't been patched. You're looking at this through biased eyes.

 

[Zorcey]

And you're just saying X characters matter more then Y characters, which just isn't true. Every character matters, and you overall lose with [Default only].

I fixed your post for you.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

And obviously three of the four DLC characters become absolute trash with customs on, and Ryu barely scrapes by.

This is the weakest argument I've heard. First off it's not true, second off we don't ban something just because your character or a select few dont benifit from it. We don't ban ness's back throw just because it hurts lil mac's recovery.

 

[LancerStaff]

There exists a challenge for collecting all custom moves, but no such equivalent exists for even collecting any sort of distinguisher (all effects, all types, whatever) for equipment. Just a separate one for a specific quantity of gear (30 or something like that on 3DS, maybe 100 on U? Can't remember)

And are we still ignoring the (certainly ancient but certainly existing) nerf Dragon Rush got way back when?

And where do Miis factor into this? Their specials seem to be treated as distinct and balance-worthy by Nandai, and yet they're still being blanket-banned with the rest of the moves.

Because equipment is randomly created... I have 100+ Godly Sacred Treasures between both games, all with different stats. You can only hold 3000 pieces per game, and that's much less then the near infinite number of possible equipment. There wasn't a "get 30 X" challenge in regards to equipment, although there are notifications to getting X amount of different bonus effects.

And that was pretty half-***ed. Zard didn't need a nerf, and Dragon Rush is still the better move.

Miis, nobody outside of Nintendo/Namco knows what to do. I think we can all agree it's a different argument.

Custom infinites were removed though lol

Jank is way too subjective and buzzwordy for me to consider it a valid label for "crap that nintendo should nerf but didn't" especially when they actually have.

There's plenty of weird crap in default like luma killing at 0% that could easily be considered "jank", yet it hasn't been patched. You're looking at this through biased eyes.

And nothing else significant has changed, unless you count Fox's completely unnecessary custom blaster buffs.

Literally the only things patched so far were infinites, another way to ruin doubles, glitches of all kinds, and largely unnecessary buffs to "match" the default getting a buff.

Luma only KOs at 0 in extreme situations.... Plenty of other single hit moves would KO at 0% between max rage and the knockback multiplier for hitting people charging a Smash. That's not special at all.

I fixed your post for you.

Care to explain how less relevant options is better?

This is the weakest argument I've heard. First off it's not true, second off we don't ban something just because your character or a select few dont benifit from it. We don't ban ness's back throw just because it hurts lil mac's recovery.

You're effectively banning default play by keeping customs on just as hard as you're banning Palutena by keeping customs off. There's a big difference between a ban and a in-game option.

 

[Zorcey]

Care to explain how less relevant options is better?

How do Customs create less relevant options? Just off the top of my head, Dr. Mario, Rosalina, Marth, Charizard, WiiFit, Sheik, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Kirby, Fox, Shulk, Lucario, Pac Man, Link, Tink, Palutena, Ganondorf, Pikachu, Mario, Robin and Ike all benefit from Custom Moves.

And apart from one or two moves per character, the choices are not braindead by any means. There are a myriad of matchup differences that effect which Customs are useful and when they are useful. Customs introduce so many new options to this game it's overwhelming. Educate yourself before saying something so ridiculous.

 

[LancerStaff]

How do Customs create less relevant options? Just off the top of my head, Dr. Mario, Rosalina, Marth, Charizard, WiiFit, Sheik, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Kirby, Fox, Shulk, Lucario, Pac Man, Link, Tink, Palutena, Ganondorf, Pikachu, Mario, Robin and Ike all benefit from Custom Moves.

And apart from one or two moves per character, the choices are not braindead by any means. There are a myriad of matchup differences that effect which Customs are useful and when they are useful. Customs introduce so many new options to this game it's overwhelming. Educate yourself before saying something so ridiculous.

Bowser Jr, Diddy, Falco, Greninja, Puff, Mac, Lucas, MK, Mewtwo, ROB, Roy, Ryu, Yoshi and Zelda lose in customs. Some of what you listed were already top tiers... Shiek, Fox, Rosalina, Pika, and Sonic (you somehow forgot) all gain quite a bit. And the other characters you mentioned besides maybe Pac and Marth aren't really viable while Diddy, Greninja, MK, Ryu and Yoshi are but get hurt in customs.

Doc needs the high Tornado, Fast Pills, and a cape depending on the matchup. Rosalina will always bring just Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit. Marth is Dashing Assault and Crescent Slash, and maybe a custom counter. Zard is really just Dragon Rush, and DK will always be the last airbender. Shiek is just different flavors of needles and Bouncing Fish, Bowser gets Dash Slam and a rather irrelevant choice in Dspecials. Fox just gets better. Mario, Pika, Link, Tink, Dorf and even Palutena of all characters don't have much variety at all...

So, where's the variety again?

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Bowser Jr, Diddy, Falco, Greninja, Puff, Mac, Lucas, MK, Mewtwo, ROB, Roy, Ryu, Yoshi and Zelda lose in customs. Some of what you listed were already top tiers... Shiek, Fox, Rosalina, Pika, and Sonic (you somehow forgot) all gain quite a bit. And the other characters you mentioned besides maybe Pac and Marth aren't really viable while Diddy, Greninja, MK, Ryu and Yoshi are but get hurt in customs.

Doc needs the high Tornado, Fast Pills, and a cape depending on the matchup. Rosalina will always bring just Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit. Marth is Dashing Assault and Crescent Slash, and maybe a custom counter. Zard is really just Dragon Rush, and DK will always be the last airbender. Shiek is just different flavors of needles and Bouncing Fish, Bowser gets Dash Slam and a rather irrelevant choice in Dspecials. Fox just gets better. Mario, Pika, Link, Tink, Dorf and even Palutena of all characters don't have much variety at all...

So, where's the variety again?

You LITERALY listed a variety of things that don't appear in non custom that do in customs... That's LITERALY variety. Not only that but lots of people will pick things just because that's what they prefer. i perfer greninjas custom up B because it allows me to recover easier, contrary to you stating he gets worse. You are guilty of over generalization sir.

Also iv been on the Mac boards and they seem to think that while the customs don't improve his game, they are side-grades that can give him different options (variety).

Please stop making bold blanket statements. It saves us time so we don't have to correct your statements.

 

[DavemanCozy]

My opinion on them still remains the same, I would much rather play with Customs OFF. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not one to spoil others fun and be a whiny child if people want to have them on. Both of my characters get better with them on anyways, and they do give a new taste to the game.

I do think, however, that the custom movesets being put in 10 slots is a bit flawed. I preferred the original idea of having the last 2 spots empty for people with unusual combinations to load their builds. I know the custom movesets cover the "best builds," although that is according to the players who post here. Not allowing the other moves to be used that don't make the cut - regardless of how unlikely someone is to use that one move - nutters the idea of playing with customizable fighters.

But oh well. I live in Ontario, vast majority of us don't like them for our majors and regionals anyways.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja doesn't lose in customs, he gets plenty of MU specific stuff like Shifting/Stagnant Shuriken and Exploding Attack.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Greninja doesn't lose in customs, he gets plenty of MU specific stuff like Shifting/Stagnant Shuriken and Exploding Attack.

THATS what I'm saying!!... This isn't an objective matter. Which customs are best is a very subjective thing, thus arguments shouldn't be rooted in the viability of a custom move.

 

[Sodo]

Mario, Pika, Link, Tink, Dorf and even Palutena of all characters don't have much variety at all...

So, where's the variety again?

Can't speak for Link or Tink... but Mario's Fast Fireball, Gust Cape, and both FLUDD customs have uses or utility. As a custom Doc player who plays regularly against a custom Mario main, I've faced them all and they're definitely worth using depending on the matchup. Ganondorf's Warlock Blade, both custom Chokes, Dark Fists, and Wizard's Dropkick are all worth experimenting with. Palutena benefits more from customs than probably any character besides Doc (in my own estimation)... how could you possibly be making these claims?

EDIT: Didn't even notice you said Pika, which doesn't help you at all... Thunder Wave and HSB are staples for custom Pika... customs provide a ton of variety to the game...

 

[LancerStaff]

You LITERALY listed a variety of things that don't appear in non custom that do in customs... That's LITERALY variety. Not only that but lots of people will pick things just because that's what they prefer. i perfer greninjas custom up B because it allows me to recover easier, contrary to you stating he gets worse. You are guilty of over generalization sir.

Also iv been on the Mac boards and they seem to think that while the customs don't improve his game, they are side-grades that can give him different options (variety).

Please stop making bold blanket statements. It saves us time so we don't have to correct your statements.

Different options =/= more options. Doesn't matter that they're not in defaults, they replace weaker moves with better ones. It's like saying not L-canceling is a legitimate option.

You're just gimping your Greninja for the sake of doing so. There's no point in learning something easy just to unlearn it once you advance... Nobody in a tournament would use it.

Yes, but that's not a real gain. He loses because almost everybody else gets better. And they're marginal choices at best... Is there really a reason to do a normal Shoruken when the stronger and faster one exists? Not really. It's another case where options =/= depth.

Correct my statements? Nobody's corrected anything besides what cape was best. There's nothing "bold" here, my opinions are quite common if you haven't noticed the whole "customs are on the outs" thing.

Greninja doesn't lose in customs, he gets plenty of MU specific stuff like Shifting/Stagnant Shuriken and Exploding Attack.

He gets a handful of highly specific moves and a useless move replaced with a mostly useless move. Shifting or Stagnant don't help enough, and thus he goes backwards.

Can't speak for Link or Tink... but Mario's Fast Fireball, Gust Cape, and both FLUDD customs have uses or utility. As a custom Doc player who plays regularly against a custom Mario main, I've faced them all and they're definitely worth using depending on the matchup. Ganondorf's Warlock Blade, both custom Chokes, Dark Fists, and Wizard's Dropkick are all worth experimenting with. Palutena benefits more from customs than probably any character besides Doc (in my own estimation)... how could you possibly be making these claims?

EDIT: Didn't even notice you said Pika, which doesn't help you at all... Thunder Wave and HSB are staples for custom Pika... customs provide a ton of variety to the game...

Palutena will never not bring Lightweight, Explosive Flame and Auto Ret. are similarly situational, and Reflect Barrier is just inferior to Super Speed in most matchups with projectiles, much less without.

What a character gains is irrelevant if there's little to no choice. I don't care about "viable" DK and Dorf when it makes the top tiers more oppressive. Pika doesn't gain options, Pika just has better options. There's no reason to experiment at all when the best options for the matchup are so obvious. There's only a false choice, it requires extra effort to even use, and there's arguably less depth because the balance is worse.

 

[FullMoon]

He gets a handful of highly specific moves and a useless move replaced with a mostly useless move. Shifting or Stagnant don't help enough, and thus he goes backwards.

What is highly specific about a transcedent projectile that combos into his main kill move at kill percentages and another shuriken that sets up footstool combos for free on everyone?

Substitute is not useless and Exploding Attack has it's uses, such as covering the ledge.

Is there really a reason to do a normal Shoruken when the stronger and faster one exists? Not really. It's another case where options =/= depth.

Also wtf are you even saying here.

 

[Unknownkid]

My opinion on them still remains the same, I would much rather play with Customs OFF. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not one to spoil others fun and be a whiny child if people want to have them on. Both of my characters get better with them on anyways, and they do give a new taste to the game.

I do think, however, that the custom movesets being put in 10 slots is a bit flawed. I preferred the original idea of having the last 2 spots empty for people with unusual combinations to load their builds. I know the custom movesets cover the "best builds," although that is according to the players who post here. Not allowing the other moves to be used that don't make the cut - regardless of how unlikely someone is to use that one move - nutters the idea of playing with customizable fighters.

But oh well. I live in Ontario, vast majority of us don't like them for our majors and regionals anyways.

That was due to EVO and only EVO not allowing players to upload them. The CMP allow players to upload their sets in the last two spots.

I think it obvious now that LancerStaff is bit outdated on his custom information. I believe you should go read some the character's custom move project before stating things as fact. I advise you to read the Mario, Charizard, Greninja and Zelda Custom thread.

 

[SoniCraft]

That p

Different options =/= more options. Doesn't matter that they're not in defaults, they replace weaker moves with better ones. It's like saying not L-canceling is a legitimate option.

You're just gimping your Greninja for the sake of doing so. There's no point in learning something easy just to unlearn it once you advance... Nobody in a tournament would use it.

Yes, but that's not a real gain. He loses because almost everybody else gets better. And they're marginal choices at best... Is there really a reason to do a normal Shoruken when the stronger and faster one exists? Not really. It's another case where options =/= depth.

Correct my statements? Nobody's corrected anything besides what cape was best. There's nothing "bold" here, my opinions are quite common if you haven't noticed the whole "customs are on the outs" thing.



He gets a handful of highly specific moves and a useless move replaced with a mostly useless move. Shifting or Stagnant don't help enough, and thus he goes backwards.



Palutena will never not bring Lightweight, Explosive Flame and Auto Ret. are similarly situational, and Reflect Barrier is just inferior to Super Speed in most matchups with projectiles, much less without.

What a character gains is irrelevant if there's little to no choice. I don't care about "viable" DK and Dorf when it makes the top tiers more oppressive. Pika doesn't gain options, Pika just has better options. There's no reason to experiment at all when the best options for the matchup are so obvious. There's only a false choice, it requires extra effort to even use, and there's arguably less depth because the balance is worse.

Dude you have no idea how much I'm laughing at all your posts.

But they're also getting really annoying because of how uninformed and ignorant they are. Please come back when you have actually informed yourself on different characters' custom moves. Like Unknownkid said, go check out some character boards; there's a lot of useful info! I for one can tell you that Villager gets plenty of options, and the only real given move is the Exploding Balloons. Yes, even Default Timber can be preferred over Timber Counter, especially in Doubles.

 

[wizrad]

The argument that having more options means you have less options is absolutely ludicrous. Yes, there may be an agreed upon "best" for each move, but that doesn't really mean much if we're allowed to choose our movesets. This isn't a non-custom meta if customs are on; we don't all have to use the same moves. People can use what they want. If Sheik is the best character, why doesn't everyone main Sheik? Oh, right, because we're not all robots entirely focused on competitive viability. Some of us have fun. Some of us just don't like how Sheik plays. Some of us like other characters better. Some of us just don't mesh well with Sheik, myself included.

More options =/= less options because more > less, if you still don't get it.

 

[Raijinken]

Jr, Diddy, Falco, Greninja, Mac, ROB, and Zelda all have valid selectable sidegrades.

Sakurai himself could have given any given custom to a character as default (see: Boomerang) and it quite possibly would have resulted in a slightly different meta from what we have now. The meta, and by extension, character strengths, vary by ruleset, and as such, trying to compare winners and losers across customs or not is comparing apples and oranges.

And the more I use it, the more I actually like default Dr Tornado for anything short of hard offstage reads. Lots of Rosalinas prefer default Luma Shot since it doesn't have a massive midrange blindspot. Dashing Assault is a recovery variant that loses all actual aggressive value/shield breaking potential Shield Breaker is good for. Iai Counter is generally better but can lead to some Little Mac offstage counter situations that put you in a worse spot, and Crescent Slash makes your nearstage game riskier due to its lost vertical. Mario has versatile fireballs (unlike Doc's EVO sets, Mario's include both, and honestly all three should probably be present at least once), very selectable capes (discussed in detail in the actual EVO moveset page), and can trade recovery for a comboable kill move instead. Link at least generally wants his old Boomerang, and can trade recovery for an extra meteor via meteor bomb. Tink has some similarly valid tradeoffs on bombs, up special, and bow. Dorf is essentially set in Dropkick and Dark Fists, the other two are versatile by preference (since none of his B moves will really ever hit and all three sides have valid pros and cons). Palutena essentially always has Lightweight and Superspeed because they're that good, but the other two have full range of options bar the laughably bad Heavenly Light.

So, regardless of the current state of the custom moveset project, which is suitably under review, there's quite a bit of valid variety that I, personally, am sure would shine forth if they weren't such a deliberate nightmare to set up. If it was as simple as choosing a special for each direction (like choosing an assist for each character in Marvel), I would bet money we'd see wider use of more interesting things.

Either way, I must agree and emphasize that the presence of choices, even in the presence of "clearly superior" choices, leads to better metagame growth. If it didn't, all Smash games would have banned down to their top tier character on that character's most interesting stage long ago. Thank goodness we haven't.

Also, normal Shoryu is better when you can't afford the time/thought to do the input. i.e. while recovering without threat from the enemy. Even if you consider that just "poor Ryu play", there still exist choices in which strength of Shoryuken (and all other moves) to use.

Simply put, some things will have objective superiority. But unless you allow the others, you can literally never know. It's like eating pizza from one restaurant once in your life and declaring that there is no other good pizza and all other pizza is time consuming jank.

 

[wizrad]

+1. You literally just said what I said but like ten times more well worded and thought out.

 

[LancerStaff]

What is highly specific about a transcedent projectile that combos into his main kill move at kill percentages and another shuriken that sets up footstool combos for free on everyone?

Substitute is not useless and Exploding Attack has it's uses, such as covering the ledge.



Also wtf are you even saying here.

Wait, was this pre patch or post patch? I forgot about the Water Shuruken buff.

More options doesn't equal depth.

That p

Dude you have no idea how much I'm laughing at all your posts.

But they're also getting really annoying because of how uninformed and ignorant they are. Please come back when you have actually informed yourself on different characters' custom moves. Like Unknownkid said, go check out some character boards; there's a lot of useful info! I for one can tell you that Villager gets plenty of options, and the only real given move is the Exploding Balloons. Yes, even Default Timber can be preferred over Timber Counter, especially in Doubles.

Garden vs. Default Pocket and Timber vs. Counter Timber is painfully obvious for each matchup, what are you talking about? These options don't make a difference if you always walk into the same situation with the same moves every time.

The argument that having more options means you have less options is absolutely ludicrous. Yes, there may be an agreed upon "best" for each move, but that doesn't really mean much if we're allowed to choose our movesets. This isn't a non-custom meta if customs are on; we don't all have to use the same moves. People can use what they want. If Sheik is the best character, why doesn't everyone main Sheik? Oh, right, because we're not all robots entirely focused on competitive viability. Some of us have fun. Some of us just don't like how Sheik plays. Some of us like other characters better. Some of us just don't mesh well with Sheik, myself included.

More options =/= less options because more > less, if you still don't get it.

Never said that, and you won't find me ever saying I did. More options =/= more depth. I could give you 1000 weaker fireballs but none of them are legitimate options and add nothing to the game.

Funny, I've never seen anybody intentionally pick a sub-optimal custom move in a decent tournament. Picking a character is completely different from a few moves. Most will just pick the best moves when the time comes.

Jr, Diddy, Falco, Greninja, Mac, ROB, and Zelda all have valid selectable sidegrades.

Sakurai himself could have given any given custom to a character as default (see: Boomerang) and it quite possibly would have resulted in a slightly different meta from what we have now. The meta, and by extension, character strengths, vary by ruleset, and as such, trying to compare winners and losers across customs or not is comparing apples and oranges.

And the more I use it, the more I actually like default Dr Tornado for anything short of hard offstage reads. Lots of Rosalinas prefer default Luma Shot since it doesn't have a massive midrange blindspot. Dashing Assault is a recovery variant that loses all actual aggressive value/shield breaking potential Shield Breaker is good for. Iai Counter is generally better but can lead to some Little Mac offstage counter situations that put you in a worse spot, and Crescent Slash makes your nearstage game riskier due to its lost vertical. Mario has versatile fireballs (unlike Doc's EVO sets, Mario's include both, and honestly all three should probably be present at least once), very selectable capes (discussed in detail in the actual EVO moveset page), and can trade recovery for a comboable kill move instead. Link at least generally wants his old Boomerang, and can trade recovery for an extra meteor via meteor bomb. Tink has some similarly valid tradeoffs on bombs, up special, and bow. Dorf is essentially set in Dropkick and Dark Fists, the other two are versatile by preference (since none of his B moves will really ever hit and all three sides have valid pros and cons). Palutena essentially always has Lightweight and Superspeed because they're that good, but the other two have full range of options bar the laughably bad Heavenly Light.

So, regardless of the current state of the custom moveset project, which is suitably under review, there's quite a bit of valid variety that I, personally, am sure would shine forth if they weren't such a deliberate nightmare to set up. If it was as simple as choosing a special for each direction (like choosing an assist for each character in Marvel), I would bet money we'd see wider use of more interesting things.

Either way, I must agree and emphasize that the presence of choices, even in the presence of "clearly superior" choices, leads to better metagame growth. If it didn't, all Smash games would have banned down to their top tier character on that character's most interesting stage long ago. Thank goodness we haven't.

Also, normal Shoryu is better when you can't afford the time/thought to do the input. i.e. while recovering without threat from the enemy. Even if you consider that just "poor Ryu play", there still exist choices in which strength of Shoryuken (and all other moves) to use.

Simply put, some things will have objective superiority. But unless you allow the others, you can literally never know. It's like eating pizza from one restaurant once in your life and declaring that there is no other good pizza and all other pizza is time consuming jank.

Sidegrades and nothing else on anything but a top tier aren't good enough to matter.

Not here to talk about theoreticals, if X move was instead Y. We're here to talk about if customs should be used going forward. They must be compared since they're largely fighting for the same space.

You don't think we've tried them? What's left to try when there's no sign of imminent growth or change over customs off?

 

[FullMoon]

Wait, was this pre patch or post patch? I forgot about the Water Shuruken buff.

More options doesn't equal depth.

They were always like this, even pre-patch.

Also when did I ever imply that?

Sidegrades and nothing else on anything but a top tier aren't good enough to matter.

If I have one sidegrade that turns my MU with Sheik from -2 to +1, but is not that good against another top tier (say, Rosalina), is that not good enough to matter?

Not saying Greninja has one of those, but saying that sidegrades don't matter is just dumb.

If if I have my default working very well against half the cast and the other two customs cover the remaining half, top tier or not, how does that not matter?

You don't need something to be a straight upgrade in order for it to be good or important, it just depends on how well those sidegrades complement your MUs.

 

[captain clutch]

I main Villager and Pikachu. Two characters that benefit A LOT from customs. But I've found that variety comes with preference and knowledge. YOUR OWN knowledge. Don't just watch a 7 second gif and then conclude that something is OP, broken, jank, etc. Hit the lab, do your own testing. Experiment with other moves and situations. You may find that some moves should be used in certain match ups.

I LOVE Pikachu's Thunder Shock neutral b custom. People go from thinking it's his worst neutral b to thinking its a godlike move once they play me. I asked ESAM once on stream why he never used it, and he simply said because it sucks. He chose it on stream and proceeded to try and use it the same way he uses Pika's other neutral b's. Which is not how you should use it all. Recognize the moves' strengths and weaknesses, and adjust your game plan accordingly. It's not for everyone, but saying it sucks because it's different is not the way to go, especially if you don't fully understand the properties of the move.

As for Villager, I use all of his moves besides Balloon Jump. Match up dependent. I love how underrated Lift off Lloid is. It's great for limiting options against characters that spend a lot of time in the air (think Megaman's Danger Wrap.) The Super Timber comes with a very useful tool: the buffed watering can. It can gimp some characters or even push them across the stage into the growing tree.

Just so much to be explored in a customs meta, it would take years to watch it reach its potential. But at this rate I don't think the community will allow it.

 

[Raijinken]

You don't think we've tried them? What's left to try when there's no sign of imminent growth or change over customs off?

It doesn't matter if there's a sign. If there's depth potential, it should be allowed.
We do not ban things for opinionative dislike/boredom. Nor do we ban things because they don't show "signs of imminent growth."

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm not interested in diving into the full debate right now, but one minor thing to note: Despite Luma Warp being considered by many (including myself) as the generally preferable option, Dabuz still opted for default Luma Shot at EVO. As noted earlier, Luma Warp leaves Rosalina with a pretty big blind spot at midrange.

 

[DunnoBro]

Diddy, Greninja, MK, Ryu and Yoshi are but get hurt in customs.

You have literally no idea what you're talking about.

Funny, I've never seen anybody intentionally pick a sub-optimal custom move in a decent tournament. Picking a character is completely different from a few moves. Most will just pick the best moves when the time comes.

Here's a story. First time I played kenny and vabengals custom pikachu and logic's olimar with custom DHD I lost because I operated under the assumption mega gunmen are directly superior.

I then find out they do nothing in those matchups whatsoever, don't block projectiles well and can't even shoot those characters. And the reason zigzag is usable is because mega gunmen bring back his ability to camp. I had to learn how to use default gunmen with zigzag, and when I played kenny and bengals again I won.

Logic's olimar however was another story, default gunmen are still pretty pointless. So I also practiced quick gunmen and found it better for that MU. Next time I played him I won.

You can't just pick the best moves. You need to practice them and know when and how to use them for specific MUs. No matter how much you try to dumb it down, we don't know the 100% best option in every situation. If we did, then even default wouldn't have depth. It'd just be a pre-planned battle of chess (or more like checkers in default)

Do some customs remove depth and contribute to polarization? Yea, I think so too. Do they all? Hell no, not even close, and the fact you think diddy or greninja don't benefit from a customs environment proves to me irrefutably you aren't even trying to support your theory with facts or experience. Just ignorant knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Sodo]

What a character gains is irrelevant if there's little to no choice. I don't care about "viable" DK and Dorf when it makes the top tiers more oppressive. Pika doesn't gain options, Pika just has better options. There's no reason to experiment at all when the best options for the matchup are so obvious. There's only a false choice, it requires extra effort to even use, and there's arguably less depth because the balance is worse.

That's the point, there are choices. There are three choices for every special move. Pikachu's Thunder Wave is a great option, but against campy/defensive players it's pretty widely agreed that the default Thunder Bolt is a better option for coverage.

 

[Quarium]

I don't much care for them personally but that's mostly because I find default movesets fun enough.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Are people maybe conflating "doesn't benefit from customs" with "can make do without customs"?

 

[DavemanCozy]

That was due to EVO and only EVO not allowing players to upload them. The CMP allow players to upload their sets in the last two spots.

I think it obvious now that LancerStaff is bit outdated on his custom information. I believe you should go read some the character's custom move project before stating things as fact. I advise you to read the Mario, Charizard, Greninja and Zelda Custom thread.

"My opinion on them still remains the same..."
"I do think..."

Good sir! What facts do you claim I'm stating? I'm only expressing my opinion and thoughts, clearly indicated by the first lines in the sentences of my post! The only fact I wrote about was that putting 10 slots like EVO was not allowing true customization.

I'll go ahead and give said threads a read, and I'm glad the original CMP will allow players to use their own sets on the last slots.

 

[blackghost]

Where are you guys going to watch csotm matches these days? Any streams still using them? east coast and west coast (far as I can tell) have abandoned them. As any cusotm player knows knowledge is the key, anyone know a stream where i can watch some custom tournaments happen?
And wow this thread was entertaining to read.

 

[Raijinken]

Where are you guys going to watch csotm matches these days? Any streams still using them? east coast and west coast (far as I can tell) have abandoned them. As any cusotm player knows knowledge is the key, anyone know a stream where i can watch some custom tournaments happen?
And wow this thread was entertaining to read.

I'm not presently aware of any such streams (though I'd also like to have a link if someone does know of any), but there are plenty of matches on Youtube with 'em.

 

[Unknownkid]

"My opinion on them still remains the same..."
"I do think..."

Good sir! What facts do you claim I'm stating? I'm only expressing my opinion and thoughts, clearly indicated by the first lines in the sentences of my post! The only fact I wrote about was that putting 10 slots like EVO was not allowing true customization.

I'll go ahead and give said threads a read, and I'm glad the original CMP will allow players to use their own sets on the last slots.

....Mr. Daveman Covy. I afraid you may have over-read your part in this matter.
That second portion was not towards you. It was actually towards Lancer Staff. Like this one below.

Funny, I've never seen anybody intentionally pick a sub-optimal custom move in a decent tournament. Picking a character is completely different from a few moves. Most will just pick the best moves when the time comes.

Does EVO 2015 count as a "decent tournament"? Maybe not to you but I think you need to watch it again because you are clearly blind.

ESAM switched from Thunder Wave to Thunder Shock against Ally.
Static Manny switched to Default Sonic against FOW.
MJG used Default Lloid vs Tweek (Remember CaptainAwesum -Ledge Stalling Villager master - uses Pushy Lloid [http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sm5osi])
Nairo used Custom B Laser against Sheik Mains (False, Mr. R and Zero).
Amsa switched between his "bad" Custom Bs haha.
Dabuz switched his Custom B for Rosy.
There was a Diddy player that use Battered Banana Peels.
Abadongo opt out using Custom Pacman because Angel used Meteor Trampoline against Abadongo
Not shown but Dapuffster actually switched Helicopter Kick for Piston Punch against Static Manny.

Other tournaments? Ninja Link used Shadow Blade against Mike Kirby. SomeDumbAss was mad that Smash Attack didn't have his set for Ganon. Come On and Ban had a Wario player using Heavy Bike vs a Custom Sonic. I am sure there is more examples but custom tournaments are becoming scarce.

Amazing Ampharos and Thinkamen both mention that players were using unorthodox sets at EVO. Perhaps you should read CMP thread and see how many people were mad that they couldn't use their set.

 

[jet56]

oh sakurai...look what you have done, creating customs and watching the competitive community split itself apart over customs on or off, and he planned for it the whole time, knowing customs would cause such a rift, to therefore make the competitive fanbase torture themselves over what type of meta we would want.(please don't take this comment seriously.)

anyway, the short of it is, to hell with it, just let customs happen and see what how it turns out.

or don't, because the default meta isn't at its full potential yet, and there is still some things to be worked on. (besides, the meta changes slightly every time we get new characters and patches, so lets work on that first before we delve into customs.)

at this point, its just up to the community, but i feel arguing about specific characters with specific customs in specific matchups is a little nit picky in my opinion. why not just look at the whole argument as a whole, and make our decision from there. (also i love how we debate about this stuff on here, when we are just a handful of people that may or may not change the opinion of the competitive scene, or if people do read this, they wont care. no offense to anyone here.)

 

[Raijinken]

Does EVO 2015 count as a "decent tournament"? Maybe not to you but I think you need to watch it again because you are clearly blind.

ESAM switched from Thunder Wave to Thunder Shock against Ally.
Static Manny switched to Default Sonic against FOW.
MJG used Default Lloid vs Tweek (Remember CaptainAwesum -Ledge Stalling Villager master - uses Pushy Lloid [http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sm5osi])
Nairo used Custom B Laser against Sheik Mains (False, Mr. R and Zero).
Amsa switched between his "bad" Custom Bs haha.
Dabuz switched his Custom B for Rosy.
There was a Diddy player that use Battered Banana Peels.
Abadongo opt out using Custom Pacman because Angel used Meteor Trampoline against Abadongo
Not shown but Dapuffster actually switched Helicopter Kick for Piston Punch against Static Manny.

Other tournaments? Ninja Link used Shadow Blade against Mike Kirby. SomeDumbAss was mad that Smash Attack didn't have his set for Ganon. Come On and Ban had a Wario player using Heavy Bike vs a Custom Sonic. I am sure there is more examples but custom tournaments are becoming scarce.

Amazing Ampharos and Thinkamen both mention that players were using unorthodox sets at EVO. Perhaps you should read CMP thread and see how many people were mad that they couldn't use their set.

If people stop drawing the distinction between custom and special, it's even better. If there are so many "false choices" creating "false depth," then why didn't Ally, who I would assume was actually trying to win since he was competing, not use the 2-3 "best" Marth customs, instead of opting for none at all? Same for Mario options against StaticManny.

Or maybe sub-optimal choice is just a part of competition? Crazy thought, that.

oh sakurai...look what you have done, creating customs and watching the competitive community split itself apart over customs on or off, and he planned for it the whole time, knowing customs would cause such a rift, to therefore make the competitive fanbase torture themselves over what type of meta we would want.(please don't take this comment seriously.)

anyway, the short of it is, to hell with it, just let customs happen and see what how it turns out.

or don't, because the default meta isn't at its full potential yet, and there is still some things to be worked on. (besides, the meta changes slightly every time we get new characters and patches, so lets work on that first before we delve into customs.)

at this point, its just up to the community, but i feel arguing about specific characters with specific customs in specific matchups is a little nit picky in my opinion. why not just look at the whole argument as a whole, and make our decision from there. (also i love how we debate about this stuff on here, when we are just a handful of people that may or may not change the opinion of the competitive scene, or if people do read this, they wont care. no offense to anyone here.)

While I do generally agree with your tone and attitude toward it (which I'm interpreting as "Shut up and play", which is a good attitude to have), I (and many others) are inclined to think that it's better to attempt to convince people of the validity of a depth-enhancing game option before they become entrenched in the game without it. It's not so much "Learn the base game and then upgrade it later" as it is "Give the deeper game a try before you settle for less over a poor first impression." Smash's playerbase has proven repeatedly that it's more than willing to ban things over a bad impression, and that there's virtually no coming back from Banned Land.

 

[Unknownkid]

If people stop drawing the distinction between custom and special, it's even better. If there are so many "false choices" creating "false depth," then why didn't Ally, who I would assume was actually trying to win since he was competing, not use the 2-3 "best" Marth customs, instead of opting for none at all? Same for Mario options against StaticManny.

Or maybe sub-optimal choice is just a part of competition? Crazy thought, that.

That was just Ally being stubborn but I agree with your points.

 

[Raijinken]

That was just Ally being stubborn but I agree with your points.

Stubbornness is a form of choice, after all. It just seems to me that, especially this early, there's just as little "evidence" that people just pick what's best as there is little "evidence" that customs affect the meta.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If Ally had used Crescent Slash, he would have won game 2.

Not exaggerating or anything: he landed the grab several times near the ledge while facing the correct direction and enough % tacked on. Because he refused to use customs, all he could do was like, tack on 10% more damage.

Because he was stubborn, he wasn't playing to win. He potentially lost money because he was stubborn.

From a competitive standpoint, that's an incredibly stupid thing to do and not truly playing to win. That's playing out of pride.

 

[jet56]

If people stop drawing the distinction between custom and special, it's even better. If there are so many "false choices" creating "false depth," then why didn't Ally, who I would assume was actually trying to win since he was competing, not use the 2-3 "best" Marth customs, instead of opting for none at all? Same for Mario options against StaticManny.

Or maybe sub-optimal choice is just a part of competition? Crazy thought, that.


While I do generally agree with your tone and attitude toward it (which I'm interpreting as "Shut up and play", which is a good attitude to have), I (and many others) are inclined to think that it's better to attempt to convince people of the validity of a depth-enhancing game option before they become entrenched in the game without it. It's not so much "Learn the base game and then upgrade it later" as it is "Give the deeper game a try before you settle for less over a poor first impression." Smash's playerbase has proven repeatedly that it's more than willing to ban things over a bad impression, and that there's virtually no coming back from Banned Land.

Agreed. I for one am glad it's being discussed, but too many people aren't keeping perspective. I view it as, test it out, see what happens. If it works, great. If not, ok, but it can be fixed. At the moment, there just isn't enough evidence for either side, and I don't like hypotheticals in arguments. Let's give it a try. In my opinion, part of the reason people don't want customs is because they are afraid of change.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

In my opinion, part of the reason people don't want customs is because they are afraid of change.

This seems to be Smash in a nutshell. I think having Melee having a near-monopoly on competitive Smash for such a long time is a large part of it and makes people conflate Melee tactics, ideals, etc. with the rest of the series.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

This seems to be Smash in a nutshell. I think having Melee having a near-monopoly on competitive Smash for such a long time is a large part of it and makes people conflate Melee tactics, ideals, etc. with the rest of the series.

This is true and really bothers me. Melee fanboys seem to want to turn every smash game into melee 2.0. Melee was good but there is A LOT wrong with it. Smash 4 isn't melee, it's a completely separate game with its own mechanics and features. If we rob smash 4 of its customs we take away its most unique and progressive feature.

 

[jet56]

This is true and really bothers me. Melee fanboys seem to want to turn every smash game into melee 2.0. Melee was good but there is A LOT wrong with it. Smash 4 isn't melee, it's a completely separate game with its own mechanics and features. If we rob smash 4 of its customs we take away its most unique and progressive feature.

ill be honest here, i LOVE both games, melee and smash 4. but i sucked at melee, thought brawl was fine (when i was a filthy casual), didn't know what project m was till 2014, and would ask dumb questions like "i don't understand when melee players quote 20XX..." after getting competitive at both smash 4 and melee, i see two separate games that would do just fine SHARING the competitive scene. while 64 and brawl still have a following, melee and sm4sh are leading in entrees and participation. and, to be fair, melee has been going strong for 15 years. it wouldn't hurt for them to share the spotlight, but i don't think its necessary for them to leave the competitive scene altogether.