What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[|RK|]

After considering joining the site for a long time, this finally pushed me to register.

I've always been in support of customs. Mind you, I'm no high-level player and I've never even been in a real tournament. I don't even know if there's a scene anywhere around me. However, I still try to play in a competitive way and my opinion has always been that completely ignoring such a large part of the game (a large part which puts a large part of the cast on equal footing and adds tremendous depth to the game) is simply unreasonable. I can't think of any way to defend this viewpoint other than, "it's my opinion", and that's obviously not a good defense.

People who say that customs, any customs, are broken are wrong. Kong Cyclone is broken because it has a wind box and super armor? Then let's ban Charizard's Rock Smash and Sheik's Grenades while we're at it. Custom Villager is too campy? Villager is already too campy. Thunder Wave is broken because of the infinite? Ban Link's, Fox's, ZSS's, Swordfighter's, and Dedede's infinite-causing moves, too (I know some have been patched but my point still stands: they weren't banned). Helicopter Kick kills from down throw too early? I don't seem to remember hoo-hah being banned…

At the very least, I think Palutena and the Miis should be allowed ONE custom set in a non-customs rule set, and that this should be considered, for all intensive purposes, their "default" set. Miis are custom characters by their very nature, you can't even play as one without going through the customization screen. Sure, you can choose to leave everything as is, but, in my mind, that's the same as opening up Mario's customization screen, not changing anything, saving the set, and calling it a "custom set". Illogical. I'm not about to debate whether the Miis should be allowed; they're characters, get over it. As for Palutena, her "custom" moves are much like the Miis'; they're so drastically different that they should really be considered completely separate moves. She was obviously designed with custom moves as her priority. Just look at how much better her normals work with Lightweight!

Alright, I think this post is long enough, but I will say that, ideally, each character should have an optimized custom set to go along with their default, with Miis essentially getting two "customs" (but not really) sets and one optimal size. Thank you for your time.

Rock Smash and Grenades are separate moves without the level of dominance seen with wind Kong. Infinites and Hoohah were recognized as flawed, then patched. More importantly, they aren't easily removed without removing the character entirely. Villager gets even campier with customs, which is worse.

 

[wizrad]

Rock Smash and Grenades are separate moves without the level of dominance seen with wind Kong. Infinites and Hoohah were recognized as flawed, then patched. More importantly, they aren't easily removed without removing the character entirely. Villager gets even campier with customs, which is worse.

Dominance? There wasn't a single Donkey Kong in the entire top 32 of Evo. Regardless of whether they were patched, there was no push to ban the infinites, like how chaingrabs are sometimes banned in Melee tournaments. Hoo-hah was just an example, and I can admit it was not the best example.

As for Villager… ugh. I'm sorry if I offend any Villager mains, but I just hate that character. The concept, the design, the playstyle, all of it I hate. I can't play against, as, or even watch Villagers. It's maddening… but, sadly… this is no argument against Villager or customs. Regardless of whether we like it or not, camping is a part of the game and, if anyone wants to play like that, there's nothing we can do to stop it.

 

[FriarFox (C0ky)]

It takes one fully unlocked 3DS. I think they've mentioned it several times on this thread so far, and that part of the logistics argument has basically been dismissed. (In other words, yes, actually getting them is a problem, but getting them on the Wii Us is not).

Good point

 

[blackghost]

I said that besides the BS being removed (which I'm told wasn't that bad to begin with) it's become less balanced. I've been hearing Fox is top 3 in customs thanks to the "balancing", and Dragon Rush is still the obvious winner of Zard's Fspecials.

And obviously three of the four DLC characters become absolute trash with customs on, and Ryu barely scrapes by.

there is zero proof that DLC characters cannot compete in custom play. thats you stating an ipnion. ryu has focus attack and shoryuen he doesnt needs much else. roy and lucas have plenty of tools from thier normals let alone specials. lucas hasd a zero to death garantee combo. and roy fsmash is stupidly strong. those characters arent worse in custom play. character good in default dont become unplayable in custom play. where does that logic even start?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

there is zero proof that DLC characters cannot compete in custom play. thats you stating an ipnion. ryu has focus attack and shoryuen he doesnt needs much else. roy and lucas have plenty of tools from thier normals let alone specials. lucas hasd a zero to death garantee combo. and roy fsmash is stupidly strong. those characters arent worse in custom play. character good in default dont become unplayable in custom play. where does that logic even start?

I want to point out that it's true the DLC characters lack the option to use customs at all, and simply having an option is better than not having it in every circumstance I can think of. So while calling them worse is definitely a stretch, they do...unduly suffer, perhaps, in a customs environment.

Ryu at least probably doesn't need the help anyway since he basically has 3 customs for his specials all at once (tap, held, and true input). Plus variations on his normals.

 

[LancerStaff]

there is zero proof that DLC characters cannot compete in custom play. thats you stating an ipnion. ryu has focus attack and shoryuen he doesnt needs much else. roy and lucas have plenty of tools from thier normals let alone specials. lucas hasd a zero to death garantee combo. and roy fsmash is stupidly strong. those characters arent worse in custom play. character good in default dont become unplayable in custom play. where does that logic even start?

I can barely understand what you're saying...

Of course the DLC characters get worse. Almost everybody else gets better. Mewtwo's already the worst character in the game. Lucas is terrible without customs, even after the buffs. Roy is meh, and he's just outclassed at every turn without customs. Ryu is just so hard to learn but he has too many bad matchups to justify using him. They're just completely buried in customs, and that's just the DLC characters.

 

[blackghost]

I can barely understand what you're saying...

Of course the DLC characters get worse. Almost everybody else gets better. Mewtwo's already the worst character in the game. Lucas is terrible without customs, even after the buffs. Roy is meh, and he's just outclassed at every turn without customs. Ryu is just so hard to learn but he has too many bad matchups to justify using him. They're just completely buried in customs, and that's just the DLC characters.

do they have less options? yes. but that doesnt matter if thier default options are already amazing. gaining options in custom moves doesn't inherently make a character better or worse it merely allows for that character to be completely explored. having more options means S**t if they all suck. once again need some proof that DLC characters get worse. mewtwo cannot get any worse to some people so that hurts your argument and in custom play shieks, zss, and iddy still place very well using default movesets can you point to any situation where a dlc character performance dropped just because of custom moves?

 

[Blue Warrior]

Roy is meh, and he's just outclassed at every turn without customs.

He's literally a better version of Marth/Lucina, with or without customs.

 

[LancerStaff]

He's literally a better version of Marth/Lucina, with or without customs.

...Where have you been? Hype wore off ages ago and the level heads all agree that Marth > Lucina > > > > > > Roy.

 

[DunnoBro]

Anyone claiming non-top characters are worse in a customs environment by the sheer notion "other characters get better" is talking out of their ass.

No one has any idea how a fully fleshed and played out custom meta would look, and things change A LOT. Even for characters not directly influenced by their own customs. (This also means that yes, no one knows for sure if customs are more, or less balanced)

Whatever the smash game, people always find out the BEST characters with the LEAST flaws in comparison to the other characters. And the meta, without fail, comes to reflect the existence of those characters.

A great example is MK, who is now being considered high tier largely by the sheer notion that he counters or is simply good vs sheik.

Or brawl dedede, who had a LOT of dumb stuff on a large chunk of the cast, went from top tier to mid after the meta shifted to adapt to the existence of MK, and Dedede was just bad vs the majority of characters who could deal with him.

Your character, and how they function within the meta is what determines their viability. Not how great DK's customs are.

 

[LancerStaff]

Anyone claiming non-top characters are worse in a customs environment by the sheer notion "other characters get better" is talking out of their ***.

No one has any idea how a fully fleshed and played out custom meta would look, and things change A LOT. Even for characters not directly influenced by their own customs. (This also means that yes, no one knows for sure if customs are more, or less balanced)

Whatever the smash game, people always find out the BEST characters with the LEAST flaws in comparison to the other characters. And the meta, without fail, comes to reflect the existence of those characters.

A great example is MK, who is now being considered high tier largely by the sheer notion that he counters or is simply good vs sheik.

Or brawl dedede, who had a LOT of dumb stuff on a large chunk of the cast, went from top tier to mid after the meta shifted to adapt to the existence of MK, and Dedede was just bad vs the majority of characters who could deal with him.

Your character, and how they function within the meta is what determines their viability. Not how great DK's customs are.

The thing is that the meta is basically "everybody but XYZ is better." No, DK's customs won't effect you, but Fox, Pika, Sonic and Villager's will. Bottom and middle characters with no or bad customs are hit pretty hard because a bunch of the best characters get even more oppressive.

An example I know... Ryu vs. Pit or Dark Pit is tough for Ryu for different reasons. Both obviously have disjointed range and good combos against Ryu. Then Pit's arrows lead to him ignoring all hadokens and making it difficult to recover because of arrows, but Dark Pit's Fspecial destroys Ryu's recovery. Customs lets you basically use and abuse both Pit and Dark Pit's advantages as a single character and makes an already difficult matchup worse.

I mean, it's the same argument people used for customs in the beginning. X doesn't have (good) customs, but Y does and does much better in the matchup just because of having more options. Good when you're talking about a common character who was probably the best, bad when you're talking about four+ characters of already questionable viability.

 

[DunnoBro]

The thing is that the meta is basically "everybody but XYZ is better." No, DK's customs won't effect you, but Fox, Pika, Sonic and Villager's will. Bottom and middle characters with no or bad customs are hit pretty hard because a bunch of the best characters get even more oppressive.

An example I know... Ryu vs. Pit or Dark Pit is tough for Ryu for different reasons. Both obviously have disjointed range and good combos against Ryu. Then Pit's arrows lead to him ignoring all hadokens and making it difficult to recover because of arrows, but Dark Pit's Fspecial destroys Ryu's recovery. Customs lets you basically use and abuse both Pit and Dark Pit's advantages as a single character and makes an already difficult matchup worse.

I mean, it's the same argument people used for customs in the beginning. X doesn't have (good) customs, but Y does and does much better in the matchup just because of having more options. Good when you're talking about a common character who was probably the best, bad when you're talking about four+ characters of already questionable viability.

Wait why would dk's customs have no effect when the others do?

Regardless, how a specific MU goes down is less relevant if it isn't meta. Which is my point.

Ex. Luigi loses HARD to megaman, and even loses to little mac allegedly. But these two have issues of their own that makes them very rare and less viable. Effecting luigi's viability little overall.

What if dark pit loses hard to the custom meta's top tiers for whatever reason, and ryu doesn't?

A fantastic example is Ryu, duck hunt, and sheik.

Custom duck hunt imo beats sheik since mega gunmen shut down needles, and he can actually edgeguard her as well as she can edgeguard him thanks to zigzag. Mega gunmen also make fair much more punishable if she hits that AND duck hunt's shield due to the hitlag. Frame-1 snag OoS also makes her aerials much less safe on shield. . (Though only worth doing while she's at 30%+ or so or you'll get punished)


Ryu however imo beats custom duck hunt due to hurricane kick giving him a pretty free return to neutral and punish since it's ridiculous hitbox invalidates ALL my projectiles and dhd has a lot of endlag on them. If it hits mega gunmen, the hitbox grows and lingers so I can't even roll/spot dodge to avoid it. And even if you don't time it perfectly, dhd can't punish it very hard. It's a really frustrating MU.

This is what I'm talking about. Yes, how good characters are inherently matters a lot. But the meta is equally if not more important. How your MU is vs every character in the cast doesn't matter as much as your MU vs the characters you'll actually be playing against at a high level.

(That said it's unlikely duck hunt would be too meta with customs legal. He's imo too mentally demanding and different. But for the sake of the argument let's assume sheik still mostly has the MU spread she does now but with DHD being her best counter)

And in the end, if you don't want to be using a non-viable character, pick up a new one. This works both ways. Some characters are made viable in customs, some may be made non-viable. But even if some are, either way people are going to be forced to pick better characters if they want better results. So "but muh dlc" arguments will never have any sway over me.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wait why would dk's customs have no effect when the others do?

Regardless, how a specific MU goes down is less relevant if it isn't meta. Which is my point.

Ex. Luigi loses HARD to megaman, and even loses to little mac allegedly. But these two have issues of their own that makes them very rare and less viable. Effecting luigi's viability little overall.

What if dark pit loses hard to the custom meta's top tiers for whatever reason, and ryu doesn't?

A fantastic example is Ryu, duck hunt, and sheik.

Custom duck hunt imo beats sheik since mega gunmen shut down needles, and he can actually edgeguard her as well as she can edgeguard him thanks to zigzag. Mega gunmen also make fair much more punishable if she hits that AND duck hunt's shield due to the hitlag. Frame-1 snag OoS also makes her aerials much less safe on shield. (Though only worth doing while she's at 30%+ or so or you'll get punished)

Ryu however imo beats custom duck hunt due to hurricane kick giving him a pretty free return to neutral and punish since it's ridiculous hitbox invalidates ALL my projectiles and dhd has a lot of endlag on them. If it hits mega gunmen, the hitbox grows and lingers so I can't even roll/spot dodge to avoid it. And even if you don't time it perfectly, dhd can't punish it very hard. It's a really frustrating MU.

This is what I'm talking about. Yes, how good characters are inherently matters a lot. But the meta is equally if not more important.

(That said it's unlikely duck hunt would be too meta with customs legal. He's imo too mentally demanding and different. Like pikachu)

And in the end, if you don't want to be using a non-viable character, pick up a new one. This works both ways. Some characters made viable in customs, some may be made non-viable. But even if some are, either way people are going to be forced to pick better characters if they want better results. So "but muh dlc" arguments will never have any sway over me.

Because it is meta. It's not one matchup getting worse, it's all of them that matter. Even a little bit makes a difference... Some just so happen to get a lot. I don't understand how anybody can say a character who gains nothing can even be remotely close to where they were with what the rest are getting. It's just like when everybody says that characters will move up when Shiek and company get nerfed, it's just how it works.

Absolutely doesn't in reality. Matchups shift around a bit up top for Pit and Dark Pit (which for all intents are the same character) but also reaffirms their position just by having more options. Ryu doesn't beat anybody that matters, last I checked.

How often would this really happen? Does it actually happen? You admit your Duck Hunt example is bogus... Smash, including customs, doesn't really support matchup triangles. Characters on top are almost always on top because they have few-to-no unfavorable matchups. If you don't gain anything from customs but don't lose much either, you're a top tier or close to it.

I'm not amused by theoreticals. We have a good enough understanding of the customs meta to the point where we can say it's not significantly more balanced then customs off to even be worth the setup and debates, much less be used for the foreseeable future since it's clear as day that they're not being balanced meaningfully.

 

[DunnoBro]

Because it is meta. It's not one matchup getting worse, it's all of them that matter. Even a little bit makes a difference... Some just so happen to get a lot. I don't understand how anybody can say a character who gains nothing can even be remotely close to where they were with what the rest are getting. It's just like when everybody says that characters will move up when Shiek and company get nerfed, it's just how it works.

Absolutely doesn't in reality. Matchups shift around a bit up top for Pit and Dark Pit (which for all intents are the same character) but also reaffirms their position just by having more options. Ryu doesn't beat anybody that matters, last I checked.

How often would this really happen? Does it actually happen? You admit your Duck Hunt example is bogus... Smash, including customs, doesn't really support matchup triangles. Characters on top are almost always on top because they have few-to-no unfavorable matchups. If you don't gain anything from customs but don't lose much either, you're a top tier or close to it.

I'm not amused by theoreticals. We have a good enough understanding of the customs meta to the point where we can say it's not significantly more balanced then customs off to even be worth the setup and debates, much less be used for the foreseeable future since it's clear as day that they're not being balanced meaningfully.

If you don't like theoreticals, then maybe refrain from speaking on the viability of newly released characters in an imaginary meta? I never said everyone getting better while others remain the same doesn't effect things, I'm saying it doesn't directly translate to how the meta and the viability of certain characters will form.

End of freaking story, everyone else getting better does not DIRECTLY translate to a character getting worse. Environment is extremely important, which is why many top tiers in sm4sh were nerfed from previous iterations yet still function in this environment remarkably.

(Also, sm4sh definitely supports matchup triangles. It has the most viable characters of any past sm4sh game, and even more in customs. The idea that it couldn't is just silly.

A good one is Rosalina, Luigi, and Pikachu. These three top tiers hard counter each other and effect their viability overall harshly as a result.)

In the long run though, Customs being less balanced/polished, or certain characters losing what little viability they had are not enough reasons to not play customs to me since it's the same situation we had when the game first came out. Except we can revert if we decide it's just too imbalanced/unpolished or the type of balance and viability is undesirable for competitive play. (I.e determined by "who can deal with villager's crap while still being a good character" which it may very well be.)

 

[Ansou]

We have a good enough understanding of the customs meta to the point where we can say it's not significantly more balanced then customs off to even be worth the setup and debates, much less be used for the foreseeable future since it's clear as day that they're not being balanced meaningfully.

I don't really think we should use customs to try and balance the game. We should use them to make the game deeper and more interesting. Also the customs meta is not really evolving that much because people are not using them. And would you guess why customs aren't getting much attention by the developer team? Could it be because people are not using them?

 

[LancerStaff]

If you don't like theoreticals, then maybe refrain from speaking on the viability of newly released characters in an imaginary meta? I never said everyone getting better while others remain the same doesn't effect things, I'm saying it doesn't directly translate to how the meta and the viability of certain characters will form.

End of freaking story, everyone else getting better does not DIRECTLY translate to a character getting worse. Environment is extremely important, which is why many top tiers in sm4sh were nerfed from previous iterations yet still function in this environment remarkably.

(Also, sm4sh definitely supports matchup triangles. It has the most viable characters of any past sm4sh game, and even more in customs. The idea that it couldn't is just silly.

A good one is Rosalina, Luigi, and Pikachu. These three top tiers hard counter each other and effect their viability overall harshly as a result.)

In the long run though, Customs being less balanced/polished, or certain characters losing what little viability they had are not enough reasons to not play customs to me since it's the same situation we had when the game first came out. Except we can revert if we decide it's just too imbalanced/unpolished or the type of balance and viability is undesirable for competitive play. (I.e determined by "who can deal with villager's crap while still being a good character" which it may very well be.)

We know enough. Multiple top tiers gain big things + Ryu doesn't gain anything = Ryu does worse overall. We know enough about Ryu to put him in high tier to the top of mid based on experience. We know he's definitely not moving up any further the way the game is now.

Matchup triangles aren't common outside of top tier > mid tier > janky low tier > top tier. And customs usually means that the triangle is broken by the top tier getting a new tool. Another example I know is Pit/Dark Pit vs. DDD. Gordos really muck up their recovery because it lacks a hitbox, but the otherwise useless striking flight custom beats Gordos.

I don't really think we should use customs to try and balance the game. We should use them to make the game deeper and more interesting. Also the customs meta is not really evolving that much because people are not using them. And would you guess why customs aren't getting much attention by the developer team? Could it be because people are not using them?

Where's this depth? I see people picking the exact same moves in the same situations. It's a marginal difference and largely a false choice.

Actually, Sakurai isn't really balancing them because they're just for fun. They'd be a nightmare to balance and don't add any real depth of choice... And my evidence is Sakurai continually lumping custom specials with equipment even though he's fully aware of American players using them in tournaments. Even last patch's tournament mode give you no way to separate equipment from specials without just hoping people don't use equipment.

 

[Gawain]

Keep them out. I was all for giving them a go, but they don't add anything meaningful to the game and the only ones that even made a difference were stupid and centralizing ones that let the character spam it, dumbing the game down and making it less interesting.

At the end of the day it's the normals that make or break a character.

 

[Ansou]

Where's this depth? I see people picking the exact same moves in the same situations. It's a marginal difference and largely a false choice.

Actually, Sakurai isn't really balancing them because they're just for fun. They'd be a nightmare to balance and don't add any real depth of choice... And my evidence is Sakurai continually lumping custom specials with equipment even though he's fully aware of American players using them in tournaments. Even last patch's tournament mode give you no way to separate equipment from specials without just hoping people don't use equipment.

Well the fact that I use regular Inhale in some matchups but Jumping Inhale in most matchups and that I would only use Hammer Flip against Olimar, Meteor Stone in some matchups and Grounding Stone in other matchups while I use Default Stone against @1Miguel1 because he will probably fall for it. This is another layer of depth. Deciding which custom moves you should use. The problem is that many people don't bother trying to find out which customs are best in different situations, which is the reason that the custom meta is not evolving much. More options tend to bring more depth as there are more decisions to be made and more things to learn.

Actually, Sakurai isn't really balancing them because they're just for fun. They'd be a nightmare to balance and don't add any real depth of choice... And my evidence is Sakurai continually lumping custom specials with equipment even though he's fully aware of American players using them in tournaments. Even last patch's tournament mode give you no way to separate equipment from specials without just hoping people don't use equipment.

They wouldn't be more of a nightmare to balance than the rest of the game. They took away Pikachu's infinite last patch and they could do similar things to other custom moves if they feel the need to. Of course they don't feel the need to if people aren't using them enough.

About tournament mode: Yeah, it's a disaster. Maybe they will see the problems and fix them though.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well the fact that I use regular Inhale in some matchups but Jumping Inhale in most matchups and that I would only use Hammer Flip against Olimar, Meteor Stone in some matchups and Grounding Stone in other matchups while I use Default Stone against @1Miguel1 because he will probably fall for it. This is another layer of depth. Deciding which custom moves you should use. The problem is that many people don't bother trying to find out which customs are best in different situations, which is the reason that the custom meta is not evolving much. More options tend to bring more depth as there are more decisions to be made and more things to learn.

They wouldn't be more of a nightmare to balance than the rest of the game. They took away Pikachu's infinite last patch and they could do similar things to other custom moves if they feel the need to. Of course they don't feel the need to if people aren't using them enough.

About tournament mode: Yeah, it's a disaster. Maybe they will see the problems and fix them though.

Kirby is the exception, not the rule. Only a handful of mid and lower characters get any real choice. Most characters have so few good customs to where the choice is brain-dead obvious.

Wrong. Some customs are just good or bad by design... Shocking Cape will always be useless and Gust Cape will always be the best. Very little thought went into their initial design, and it would take tons of work to correct it. For example, Trip Sapling can't be fixed because they can't put up a trigger for removing the tripping or the sapling after tripping somebody once.

No, that's all 100% intentional. Tournaments take forever as it is... The timer was optimized for FFAs. Customs aren't separated because they never were intended to, and they were never supposed to be balanced beyond keeping the absolutely OP stuff out. The idea is that you can essentially cheat with them according to Sakurai.

 

[Ansou]

Kirby is the exception, not the rule. Only a handful of mid and lower characters get any real choice. Most characters have so few good customs to where the choice is brain-dead obvious.

Wrong. Some customs are just good or bad by design... Shocking Cape will always be useless and Gust Cape will always be the best. Very little thought went into their initial design, and it would take tons of work to correct it. For example, Trip Sapling can't be fixed because they can't put up a trigger for removing the tripping or the sapling after tripping somebody once.

No, that's all 100% intentional. Tournaments take forever as it is... The timer was optimized for FFAs. Customs aren't separated because they never were intended to, and they were never supposed to be balanced beyond keeping the absolutely OP stuff out. The idea is that you can essentially cheat with them according to Sakurai.

I know that not every character gets customs with so different uses, but some sure do. Gust Cape is not always the best choice. Default Cape is faster. They could make Trip Sapling milder by making it stick around for even shorter. Or make it even harder to plant it. Not that I honestly think it needs a nerf, but they could always do it. Of course they could put a trigger to remove it once someone has tripped, but that would be way too extreme imo.

 

[Infinite901]

Kirby is the exception, not the rule. Only a handful of mid and lower characters get any real choice. Most characters have so few good customs to where the choice is brain-dead obvious.

Wrong. Some customs are just good or bad by design... Shocking Cape will always be useless and Gust Cape will always be the best. Very little thought went into their initial design, and it would take tons of work to correct it. For example, Trip Sapling can't be fixed because they can't put up a trigger for removing the tripping or the sapling after tripping somebody once.

No, that's all 100% intentional. Tournaments take forever as it is... The timer was optimized for FFAs. Customs aren't separated because they never were intended to, and they were never supposed to be balanced beyond keeping the absolutely OP stuff out. The idea is that you can essentially cheat with them according to Sakurai.

Mega Man has the preference aspect with his down special and up special. Mr Game and Watch arguably has it with his neutral special. Bowser has it with his neutral special and mostly with down special. DK has it with his down special and side special. Kirby isn't the exception, many characters have customs that are usable in different matchups.

 

[adom4]

Mega Man has the preference aspect with his down special and up special. Mr Game and Watch arguably has it with his neutral special. Bowser has it with his neutral special and mostly with down special. DK has it with his down special and side special. Kirby isn't the exception, many characters have customs that are usable in different matchups.

i want to add Ganondorf to that list, regular wizkick is better in a lot of matchups, also both custom side-B's against Rosa are decent.

 

[Zorcey]

Customs aren't separated because they never were intended to, and they were never supposed to be balanced beyond keeping the absolutely OP stuff out. The idea is that you can essentially cheat with them according to Sakurai.

Don't put words in Sakurai's mouth. His attitude toward competitive players may be questionable, but this statement is ridiculous.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Don't put words in Sakurai's mouth. His attitude toward competitive players may be questionable, but this statement is ridiculous.

Don't forget that when Sakurai says "customs" (or more precisely, when Sakurai's words get translated to "customs"), he means "Customizations", e.g. customs moves and equipment together.

 

[LancerStaff]

I know that not every character gets customs with so different uses, but some sure do. Gust Cape is not always the best choice. Default Cape is faster. They could make Trip Sapling milder by making it stick around for even shorter. Or make it even harder to plant it. Not that I honestly think it needs a nerf, but they could always do it. Of course they could put a trigger to remove it once someone has tripped, but that would be way too extreme imo.

Default cape is faster but completely outclassed, last I checked.

Mega Man has the preference aspect with his down special and up special. Mr Game and Watch arguably has it with his neutral special. Bowser has it with his neutral special and mostly with down special. DK has it with his down special and side special. Kirby isn't the exception, many characters have customs that are usable in different matchups.

i want to add Ganondorf to that list, regular wizkick is better in a lot of matchups, also both custom side-B's against Rosa are decent.

That's not a choice, that's just picking what's good for the matchup. There's almost always clear winners for any given matchup and when there is a choice it doesn't make any real difference. That's a false choice with no depth.

Don't forget that when Sakurai says "customs" (or more precisely, when Sakurai's words get translated to "customs"), he means "Customizations", e.g. customs moves and equipment together.

Yes, customizations are cheating. Custom moves and equipment. Why should we use them at all?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yes, customizations are cheating. Custom moves and equipment. Why should we use them at all?

Because his statement only applies to the combination of custom moves and equipment, and not either one on their own without the other?

Also, since when do we care what Sakurai thinks when building our ruleset?

That's not a choice, that's just picking what's good for the matchup. There's almost always clear winners for any given matchup and when there is a choice it doesn't make any real difference. That's a false choice with no depth.

Funny, because a few posts up, you quoted someone talking about how Kirby would take different Stone options for different matchups and called him the exception. Now you say that doesn't count?

Edit for wording.

 

[Raijinken]

If Ryu is already irrelevant (wait, when did that happen? I just saw him take a finals in Doubles like a week ago), then further harming his relevance is literally no different than harming the relevance of any other character.

Look, if we really don't want to let anything interfere with the static nature of our tier list, we really should be on a single-stage meta with no customs. This removes the greatest number of variables while still leaving in other nonsense like percent as a tiebreaker.

Basically, the "____ gains nothing while others move, and thus ____ gets worse by comparison" argument makes no sense when you compare it to the rest of the ruleset. We could ban Smashville and since Sheik and Ness lose their benefit while others gain an improved matchup against Sheik, it would (by this argument) directly harm Sheik's viability. This can be taken as a true statement, because literally any ruleset change will affect viability across the board.

The goal of improving balance is noble, but quite frankly idealistic, and to use player-made balance would essentially entail coming up with a required moveset, plus stat tweaks via equipment, rather than "here are some cool movesets you can use (or bring your own), but equipment is random and lame.

The purpose of customs should be to enable the more varied game and then let these new tiers fall where they will.

Default cape is faster but completely outclassed, last I checked.


That's not a choice, that's just picking what's good for the matchup. There's almost always clear winners for any given matchup and when there is a choice it doesn't make any real difference. That's a false choice with no depth.

Yes, customizations are cheating. Custom moves and equipment. Why should we use them at all?

Gust Cape is only a pure upgrade if you're against some scrub who gets so heavily mindgamed by the existence of windboxes that they can't function. Regular cape is vastly superior as a reflector, and even Shocking Cape gives Mario a guaranteed kill setup from dthrow, if I read correctly. Gust Cape is, essentially, only so much better at edgeguarding. Even there, FLUDD is just as (or more) functional as a windbox, and the delay in the cape's startup compared to default makes it at best an unfamiliarity mixup and at worst, harder to land as a reversal edgeguard.

If picking what's good for the matchup constituted false choice with no depth, I feel like Ally would have probably run some of those "completely outclassing" Marth customs at EVO. Or maybe it really is a choice, influenced by preference, experience, and one's attitude towards customs.

Because his statement only applies to the combination of custom moves and equipment, and not either one on their own without the other?

Also, since when do we care what Sakurai thinks when building our ruleset?

We only do so when we think it relevant to our arguments.

Aside from that one guy with a green-haired Fire Emblem character avatar who actually thinks a near-Glory ruleset would be interesting and perhaps even enjoyable.

 

[DunnoBro]

Gust cape is straight ass vs 90% of the cast. Shocking cape is honestly what I'd use in almost all matchups unless they're floaties like ness and rosalina. (Doesn't combo at kill percent, or punish their air dodges well. And without the stall of cape they can screw your recovery)

Also the speed of default cape actually lets it work. Yea, the turnaround of gust is more potent, and the spacing for the windbox is generous, but I know the only real way I get cape on good players is ledge drop > cape, and this simply doesn't work as well with gust.

And there being a theoretical best choice doesn't take away from depth. Especially when you need to know how to use said option. Choices add depth irrefutably, whether it's meaningful depth is another discussion. But I'll tell you there's a lot more depth in learning to use a different special than just dealing with your current crappy one. (Or hell, just picking up sheik. She's the best answer 90% of the time anyway. How deep)

 

[Gawain]

Gust cape is straight *** vs 90% of the cast. Shocking cape is honestly what I'd use in almost all matchups they're floaties like ness and rosalina. (Doesn't combo at kill percent, or punish their air dodges well. And without the stall of cape they can screw your recovery)

Also the speed of default cape actually lets it work. Yea, the turnaround of gust is more potent, and the spacing for the windbox is generous, but I know the main way I get cape on good players is ledge drop > cape, and this simply doesn't work with gust.

And there being a theoretical best choice doesn't take away from depth. Especially when you need to know how to use said option. Choices add depth irrefutably, whether it's meaningful depth is another discussion. But I'll tell you there's a lot more depth in learning to use a different special than just dealing with your current crappy one. (Or hell, just picking up sheik. She's the best answer 90% of the time anyway. How deep)

I wouldn't bring up Sheik. Customs don't make Sheik any less #1 than she is without them. Sheik wins because her normals are the best. Customs will never change that. The only thing that will are changes to normals.

 

[DunnoBro]

I wouldn't bring up Sheik. Customs don't make Sheik any less #1 than she is without them. Sheik wins because her normals are the best. Customs will never change that. The only thing that will are changes to normals.

I brought up sheik specifically because she's #1 lol
If there's no depth because you can just pick the best option, then sm4sh in it's entirety is rather lacking since we can all just use sheik.

 

[Raijinken]

I wouldn't bring up Sheik. Customs don't make Sheik any less #1 than she is without them. Sheik wins because her normals are the best. Customs will never change that. The only thing that will are changes to normals.

The franchise has repeatedly proven that normals are more important than specials to almost every character.

Of course, whether you interpret that as "so customs don't matter so don't waste your time" or "so customs don't hurt so keep them on" entirely depends on whatever previous bias you have.

That said, if better specials results in more characters moving at all closer to Sheik, the standard deviation of power is brought closer, and balance is improved.

But the customs debate shouldn't really be about balance, since any ruleset change will affect balance.

 

[Infinite901]

I always felt that the idea that normals are always more important was a bit overstating it. For the most part, that's true, but specials still matter a whole lot. Would Sheik still be number one if she didn't have Needles? It's debatable, but I think she might fall to 2nd or 3rd, or we could end up with a very debatable difference for first. (like Sheik vs Marth for 3rd in Melee) Luigi could also fall a bit if it weren't for his Fireball leading to a grab. And as admittedly bad as Jigglypuff is, can you just imagine her without Rest?

A bit off topic but I wanted to bring that up.

 

[DunnoBro]

Normals are the structure and specials are the amenities. Yea, you can live in a log cabin but can you really call it a home without netflix?

 

[Zeekfox]

Would Sheik still be number one if she didn't have Needles?

I think she still would be at the top. I feel like Needle damage in general isn't too significant against other Smash characters who do most of their fighting up close. What Needles really does is wreck the opponent's zoning ability by clashing/beating other projectiles and interrupting the charging process of charge shot type projectiles. Like, in Luigi vs Sheik, the needles aren't too important since Luigi's generally more of a character that can be in your face constantly with good normals, tornado, and his grab. But when I'm playing Wii Fit Trainer vs Sheik, the needles will shut down my Sun Salutation options, which I really need verses characters with superior aireals *cough Sheik f-airs cough*. But since WFT (and other charge shot characters) probably won't threaten a top tier slot anytime soon, I think Sheik would be okay even without Needles.


Anyway, back to customs. Customs being on or off can really affect a character's placement on a tier list because of their options. A lot of customs pointed at in this topic are more about moves that "get better", like Twisting Fox or Wind Kong. Moves like that tend to function about the same, but with slightly different properties. The characters that benefit the most, in my opinion, are the ones where the customs change things like where the move goes/hits. Robin, for example, can change out Arcfire for a Firewall that shoots down towards his feet, which really helps against characters who like not letting him land on stage. Pac-Man fruit moves in radically different ways depending on which custom you pick. Stuff like that impacts a character much more than simple "+power, -distance" type customs.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Anyway, back to customs. Customs being on or off can really affect a character's placement on a tier list because of their options. A lot of customs pointed at in this topic are more about moves that "get better", like Twisting Fox or Wind Kong. Moves like that tend to function about the same, but with slightly different properties. The characters that benefit the most, in my opinion, are the ones where the customs change things like where the move goes/hits. Robin, for example, can change out Arcfire for a Firewall that shoots down towards his feet, which really helps against characters who like not letting him land on stage. Pac-Man fruit moves in radically different ways depending on which custom you pick. Stuff like that impacts a character much more than simple "+power, -distance" type customs.

The character I always cite is my main, Ganon. Wizard's dropkick gives him an option against defensive, projectile-oriented characters and is a legitimate trade-off from Wizkick. (wizkick has its uses, as I've learned from FG and customs-off matches) WDK helps his recovery immensely as well, and overall it gives Ganon a new tool that improves his recovery and even neutral games. And, depending on the player and the matchup, it might not be something every Ganon uses. Meanwhile there's Flame Wave, a command grab that's also a kill move, and Chain, a multi-hit non command grab that has its moments in matchups where you wouldn't use much Flame Choke. These create more decisions and ultimately more tools to make Ganondorf a far, far better character with customs on. Yes, he also has Warlock Blade and Dark Fists, which are just direct upgrades, but that's not all ganon gets. And the ganon case specifically is why I'm so strongly for customs. I kinda want the character I love to not be a laughingstock who recovers barely better than little mac.

 

[Jiggly]

I honestly think that the argument that DLC characters dont have customs should make customs illegal is dumb. The characters can compete just as well in a customs environment, especially since most of the DLC characters are good. And well, mewtwo will be mewtwo. Customs wouldnt really fix him anyways, and customs don't really hurt him immensly. Now if it was only half the cast or something had customs, maybe I would blink an eye towards the idea. Customs dont completely outplay vanilla characters, and that's why I think that the arguement shouldnt even be given the light of day

 

[Zorcey]

I honestly think that the argument that DLC characters dont have customs should make customs illegal is dumb. The characters can compete just as well in a customs environment, especially since most of the DLC characters are good. And well, mewtwo will be mewtwo. Customs wouldnt really fix him anyways, and customs don't really hurt him immensly. Now if it was only half the cast or something had customs, maybe I would blink an eye towards the idea. Customs dont completely outplay vanilla characters, and that's why I think that the arguement shouldnt even be given the light of day

The argument's logic is more or less absent. I won't argue whether or not the DLC characters are viable, but it's ridiculous to assert we should give their placement on the tier list precedence over the placement of the other characters in the game. So many fighters benefit from Customs, at the cost of maybe four. A fair trade off, if it's a trade off at all.

 

[DunnoBro]

No, sheik needs needles. Without them she can't mix up her approaches or force others to. The mere existence of them creates "no zones" and pressure. They are why her neutral is so potent. She'd likely still be high tier but not the best. Needles are how she shuts down QA, Short hop mix-ups, cross-stage set-ups, mix up edgeguards.

She'd definitely lose to pikachu, sonic, maybe ZSS without needles. Note how Nairo fights Sheiks, he goes ham as hell but it isn't how he plays other MUs. It's because he knows he only has a certain range he can fight her at where he won't just lose. This is because of needles.

 

[LancerStaff]

Because his statement only applies to the combination of custom moves and equipment, and not either one on their own without the other?

Also, since when do we care what Sakurai thinks when building our ruleset?


Funny, because a few posts up, you quoted someone talking about how Kirby would take different Stone options for different matchups and called him the exception. Now you say that doesn't count?

Edit for wording.

Not only does Sakurai not give us any indication they are separate, he also hasn't given us any mode or challenge that treats them separately. He lumps them together in the "cheating" because they are two parts of the same mechanic.

Because this is the only time he's ever told us how to play.

"Exception" means "exception." Kirby's customs mostly have legitimate choice and depth compared to the rest of the cast.

If Ryu is already irrelevant (wait, when did that happen? I just saw him take a finals in Doubles like a week ago), then further harming his relevance is literally no different than harming the relevance of any other character.

Look, if we really don't want to let anything interfere with the static nature of our tier list, we really should be on a single-stage meta with no customs. This removes the greatest number of variables while still leaving in other nonsense like percent as a tiebreaker.

Basically, the "____ gains nothing while others move, and thus ____ gets worse by comparison" argument makes no sense when you compare it to the rest of the ruleset. We could ban Smashville and since Sheik and Ness lose their benefit while others gain an improved matchup against Sheik, it would (by this argument) directly harm Sheik's viability. This can be taken as a true statement, because literally any ruleset change will affect viability across the board.

The goal of improving balance is noble, but quite frankly idealistic, and to use player-made balance would essentially entail coming up with a required moveset, plus stat tweaks via equipment, rather than "here are some cool movesets you can use (or bring your own), but equipment is random and lame.

The purpose of customs should be to enable the more varied game and then let these new tiers fall where they will.

Gust Cape is only a pure upgrade if you're against some scrub who gets so heavily mindgamed by the existence of windboxes that they can't function. Regular cape is vastly superior as a reflector, and even Shocking Cape gives Mario a guaranteed kill setup from dthrow, if I read correctly. Gust Cape is, essentially, only so much better at edgeguarding. Even there, FLUDD is just as (or more) functional as a windbox, and the delay in the cape's startup compared to default makes it at best an unfamiliarity mixup and at worst, harder to land as a reversal edgeguard.

If picking what's good for the matchup constituted false choice with no depth, I feel like Ally would have probably run some of those "completely outclassing" Marth customs at EVO. Or maybe it really is a choice, influenced by preference, experience, and one's attitude towards customs.

Not only is doubles a completely different meta, I never called Ryu irrelevant.

If it's the other way around, then my point still stands. It's a false choice. Only reason the guy didn't use them was because he doesn't see the point in practicing something they're not going to be there in a year at most.

And there being a theoretical best choice doesn't take away from depth. Especially when you need to know how to use said option. Choices add depth irrefutably, whether it's meaningful depth is another discussion. But I'll tell you there's a lot more depth in learning to use a different special than just dealing with your current crappy one. (Or hell, just picking up sheik. She's the best answer 90% of the time anyway. How deep)

Depth is a measure of how meaningful a choice is. Dongnado isn't depth, even if it buffs DK so much. Giving Mewtwo an infinite chaingrab would be an "option," one you much always take if you want a shot at winning against a decent opponent. Invalidating other options isn't depth, and we most certainly don't need more of it.

Shiek is actually being properly balanced... Slowly but surely. Customs has some easily fixed infinites and yet another way to break doubles removed, but nothing else is being fixed. Did you know they'll patch out jank because it's jank? Zelda had a massively oversized pivot grab in 1.0.0 that was removed just because it was jank. And yet nonsensical things like Dongnado or infinite Lightweight haven't been touched simply because they don't care about customs.

I honestly think that the argument that DLC characters dont have customs should make customs illegal is dumb. The characters can compete just as well in a customs environment, especially since most of the DLC characters are good. And well, mewtwo will be mewtwo. Customs wouldnt really fix him anyways, and customs don't really hurt him immensly. Now if it was only half the cast or something had customs, maybe I would blink an eye towards the idea. Customs dont completely outplay vanilla characters, and that's why I think that the arguement shouldnt even be given the light of day

Even without DLC characters, customs won't be as balanced as customs off for long. It's just the cherry on top.

And you're just saying X characters matter more then Y characters, which just isn't true. Every character matters, and you overall lose with customs.

 

[Raijinken]

Not only does Sakurai not give us any indication they are separate, he also hasn't given us any mode or challenge that treats them separately. He lumps them together in the "cheating" because they are two parts of the same mechanic.

There exists a challenge for collecting all custom moves, but no such equivalent exists for even collecting any sort of distinguisher (all effects, all types, whatever) for equipment. Just a separate one for a specific quantity of gear (30 or something like that on 3DS, maybe 100 on U? Can't remember)

And are we still ignoring the (certainly ancient but certainly existing) nerf Dragon Rush got way back when?

And where do Miis factor into this? Their specials seem to be treated as distinct and balance-worthy by Nandai, and yet they're still being blanket-banned with the rest of the moves.