What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[SoniCraft]

Hi there! I loved being called out randomly over the internet, it's SO much fun! Civil conversations shouldn't happen and it'd make no sense to ask why certain stuff is being covered, that would be silly!

Now that the sarcasm is dripping so thoroughly it's leaving puddles all over the floor... (Seriously, why is it so hard to just civilly ask things or discuss stuff? :/)

I may not personally support custom moves but post Evo there was no Evo there was nothing I saw nor anything brought to my attention that was still showing support (like a video, written piece, etc) that was showing support for custom moves. I can't report on things that aren't there.

I have been going out of my way to get guest editorials written on the further support of customs post Evo even. Yeah I'm actually going out of my way even though I currently don't support them to make sure they get fair coverage. So... Your move good sir?

I'm happy to know that you are actively looking for people to write that support custom moves. I just feel like a video that addresses many of the gameplay-related problems that people have with custom moves would be great to have an article about. Lots of people have skewed ideas on how some moves work, so I think this video would help alleviate some the negativity towards customs.

 

[blackghost]

I'm happy to know that you are actively looking for people to write that support custom moves. I just feel like a video that addresses many of the gameplay-related problems that people have with custom moves would be great to have an article about. Lots of people have skewed ideas on how some moves work, so I think this video would help alleviate some the negativity towards customs.

was the debate recorded? that was a very interesting topic imo and important ot the community. it should be somewhere. anyone know where?

 

[ᖇᕧᘘᓋᗂ]

Hello, my name is Renoy, and i'm a rookie Meta Knight main. Today I wanted to create a discussion about customs, and as we all know, some characters benefit with customs, and other don't. I was recently discussing views with another player about customs and we got on this topic. Because we don't know the customs every character gets I thought I would ask the community. Who do YOU think has the best and worst customs? The characters I have explored are Toon Link, Meta Knight, and Kirby. In my opinion, Toon Link has great customs. Both customs for his bombs are situational, but very good in the aspect you would use them. I would personally use Big Bombs because it in theory means Toon Link can recover infinitely. Toon Link's Fire Arrows are one in a kind. They provide an active hitbox to help Toon Link have control over a portion of the stage. I like to think of it like Villager's tree (the one that trips) as far as stage control goes, although, obviously it is not as powerful. As for Meta Knight, I can see potential in his Side B and Down B customs, however I think Meta Knight does not get any usage out of customs (if so, very very little). And last but not least, Kirby. Kirby has some of the most powerful customs in the game IMO. If you didn't know, Kirby's Down B gives him heavy armor (basically super armor that has a max amount of damage it can take before it expires). With this knowledge in mind, one of Kirby's custom Down Bs adds a meteor hitbox, meaning if you hit with it offstage, it could potentially spike extremely early. Another buff (although a slight one) Kirby gets from customs is his Jump Inhale. Jump Inhale makes Inhale a lot safer, heck, I've seen people use it as a move to punish an opponents shield habits. The last two buffs Kirby gets from customs are his Up B and his Side B. His Up B custom can be used as a combo finisher (it is about as fast as Meta Knight's Up B, and works similar to it, but it looks like Marth's Up B), while Kirby's Side B can be changed to be faster, but have no charge, meaning it always does a set amount of damage. Hope you enjoyed my analysis, if you think I missed anything on Toon Link, Meta Knight, or Kirby, please make sure to point it out in the reply section. Also, if you have explored other characters with customs, please reply with your findings along with your opinion on how much the character gets buffed by customs.

Thanks for Reading! ~TNA_Renoy
​

P.S. I also wanted the community's opinions on if customs should be allowed. I think customs could add a lot of variety to the game that no game like Smash has ever experienced.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think customs should continue on in tournaments, however, it should not be all tournaments. It was great with EVO being the only tournament with custom moves allowed, and I think it would be dumb to completely cut custom moves from smash when they are part of the game. And if that still doesn't work then maybe selective customs is the way to go.

 

[Tri Knight]

I say allow customs. Esam is a great example as to why they should be. He thought his Pikachu set-up was godly at EVO. Yes, it was pretty scary but none of that got him in first did it? Esam then almost defeated ZeRo in their first set at Smash Con without customs and ended up taking second place (after being wiped badly).

It also adds a lot of variety and more importantly, makes non-viable characters viable.

 

[DunnoBro]

ESAM not winning EVO is not proof custom pikachu wasn't or isn't dumb, though. I want customs allowed but I really hate this line of logic being thrown around.

 

[Tri Knight]

ESAM not winning EVO is not proof custom pikachu wasn't or isn't dumb, though. I want customs allowed but I really hate this line of logic being thrown around.

No, I'm not saying it was dumb or not dumb. I'm saying the set-up alone didn't make him win EVO. The set-up was genius and extremely powerful but clearly it didn't break the game in a way that made Esam win automatically. Players were still able to get by it despite his over-confidence in it.

 

[Cylent]

I used to be against them, thought they ruined what Smash was about. But after seeing the debates and points from the other side, I rethought it and actually entered in a custom tournament and used customs. I'm all for customs, I think it adds variety and viability to characters who may have suffered other wise.

 

[DunnoBro]

No, I'm not saying it was dumb or not dumb. I'm saying the set-up alone didn't make him win EVO. The set-up was genius and extremely powerful but clearly it didn't break the game in a way that made Esam win automatically. Players were still able to get by it despite his over-confidence in it.

Auto-winning is not the line we have to cross before we have to consider something problematic.

Yea, him not winning is important. But the reasoning as to why he didn't win is more important than the end result. Why didn't it win? Personally I believe it's because certain characters just didn't lend themselves to leaving themselves vulnerable to the combo, as well as players in general just preparing for it.

 

[Powerman293]

So that's it huh? Looks like we're gonna go to a Customs meta despite the moves not being properly balanced with the rest of the game?

I guess Smash Players really don't care about what most other fighting game fans do. Including balance.

 

[DunnoBro]

So that's it huh? Looks like we're gonna go to a Customs meta despite the moves not being properly balanced with the rest of the game?

I guess Smash Players really don't care about what most other fighting game fans do. Including balance.

Not sure what makes you think we're going to a customs meta, but deep down no, fighting game fans don't actually give a damn about balance overall lmao

They clamor for it, but will still play very ambiguously balanced games as long as the other factors for a competitive environment are met.

 

[Powerman293]

Not sure what makes you think we're going to a customs meta, but deep down no, fighting game fans don't actually give a damn about balance overall lmao

They clamor for it, but will still play very ambiguously balanced games as long as the other factors for a competitive environment are met.

But why even try to mix two things that are getting balanced and are not getting balanced?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

But why even try to mix two things that are getting balanced and are not getting balanced?

Because it might work?
What do you think are we arguing about for months now?

 

[DunnoBro]

But why even try to mix two things that are getting balanced and are not getting balanced?

We only have evidence so far that both -are- being balanced. However, default is of course more polished due to more data going into the process.

Regardless, balance isn't why I want customs. It's simply the options they allow, some are good, some are bad. But I want the majority of good ones.

 

[Powerman293]

We only have evidence so far that both -are- being balanced. However, default is of course more polished due to more data going into the process.

Regardless, balance isn't why I want customs. It's simply the options they allow, some are good, some are bad. But I want the majority of good ones.

Oh really, they're getting balanced? Well, okay then....

I'm all for customs then. No issues now.

 

[|RK|]

Undecided. It's looking like most non-Evo tournaments (particularly the bigger ones) are dropping customs hard, regardless of opinions here.

 

[T0MMY]

R.I.P. customs.
You were pushed too early and for that you may never have the chance to revitalize a possible stale future metagame.
May we remember how the "now or never" mentality ruins potentially good things so that in the future we incorporate new rulings formally and properly.

 

[John12346]

Welcome forever, Meta Knight.
Your ban was pushed too late and for that it never had the chance to revitalize an incredibly stale metagame.
May we remember how the "wait and see" mentality ruins potentially good things so that in the future we can experiment with our rulesets before our stiff as a board Smash community takes Apex rules as the gold standard.

I mostly mean this in jest, I found it rather funny when I thought about it.

Even if you don't believe he should've been banned, consider the scenario where, during Brawl's lifespan, some new evidence that 100% unequivocally proved Meta Knight should've been banned came up. I could bet you dollars to donuts the Brawl community still never would have banned him on the premise that it was "too late" or some nonsense like that.

Likewise, I don't actually believe the Smash 4 metagame actually IS going to stagnate, but let's assume we had a Smash 4 where the no-customs metagame would eventually stagnate really badly down the line like you described. I would agree with your reasoning that it's been made quite difficult now to bring back Customs in the future for when something like that happens.

However, I also believe the reverse holds true in both scenarios.

In the Brawl example if we had banned Meta Knight (for simplicity's sake, assume the 100% unbeatable MK as described before) right off the bat, most of the community would've pulled the "too early" card, the "we really need him to contest with the new #1 in the game" as well as everyone's favorite slippery slope fallacies about how eventually only Ganondorf would remain legal. And... the ban would have been overturned at some point and never looked at again.

In the same vein, if we had waited to enact Customs late into a metagame that actually did turn stale, the "too late" arguments would have come in full force (IMO this time would be ANY time after EVO, if EVO had turned off Customs in their ruleset), and combined with everything already going against Customs, there's no chance they would have been made legal at any point.

Honestly, it's not really a question about the pitfalls about enacting a change early or late. And It's not really a question of who's right or wrong. It's that a lot of the Smash community is REALLY stupid close minded and sees change as an analogue to the plague.

 

[wizrad]

After considering joining the site for a long time, this finally pushed me to register.

I've always been in support of customs. Mind you, I'm no high-level player and I've never even been in a real tournament. I don't even know if there's a scene anywhere around me. However, I still try to play in a competitive way and my opinion has always been that completely ignoring such a large part of the game (a large part which puts a large part of the cast on equal footing and adds tremendous depth to the game) is simply unreasonable. I can't think of any way to defend this viewpoint other than, "it's my opinion", and that's obviously not a good defense.

People who say that customs, any customs, are broken are wrong. Kong Cyclone is broken because it has a wind box and super armor? Then let's ban Charizard's Rock Smash and Sheik's Grenades while we're at it. Custom Villager is too campy? Villager is already too campy. Thunder Wave is broken because of the infinite? Ban Link's, Fox's, ZSS's, Swordfighter's, and Dedede's infinite-causing moves, too (I know some have been patched but my point still stands: they weren't banned). Helicopter Kick kills from down throw too early? I don't seem to remember hoo-hah being banned…

At the very least, I think Palutena and the Miis should be allowed ONE custom set in a non-customs rule set, and that this should be considered, for all intensive purposes, their "default" set. Miis are custom characters by their very nature, you can't even play as one without going through the customization screen. Sure, you can choose to leave everything as is, but, in my mind, that's the same as opening up Mario's customization screen, not changing anything, saving the set, and calling it a "custom set". Illogical. I'm not about to debate whether the Miis should be allowed; they're characters, get over it. As for Palutena, her "custom" moves are much like the Miis'; they're so drastically different that they should really be considered completely separate moves. She was obviously designed with custom moves as her priority. Just look at how much better her normals work with Lightweight!

Alright, I think this post is long enough, but I will say that, ideally, each character should have an optimized custom set to go along with their default, with Miis essentially getting two "customs" (but not really) sets and one optimal size. Thank you for your time.

 

[Rikkhan]

In the Brawl example if we had banned Meta Knight (for simplicity's sake, assume the 100% unbeatable MK as described before) right off the bat, most of the community would've pulled the "too early" card, the "we really need him to contest with the new #1 in the game" as well as everyone's favorite slippery slope fallacies about how eventually only Ganondorf would remain legal. And... the ban would have been overturned at some point and never looked at again.

SO much this, slippery slope fallacies are the bread and butter of smashboards, wether it be customs, stages or tier lists.

 

[Tri Knight]

In my opinion, customs should be legal, paying close attention to set-ups that may be considered game-breaking and preventing anything like the Thunderwave-Skullbash combo that Pikachu can have. Maybe give him two sets for those two. One where Pikachu only has thunderwave and another where he only has that skullbash... Just an example.

However, I highly doubt we'll see customs again next EVO.

 

[FriarFox (C0ky)]

Do you know how long and tedious it is to get all customs? I say no customs because more people have not 100% collected customs on their setups as opposed to having done so. The more setups, the faster a tournament can be run.

 

[ARGHETH]

Do you know how long and tedious it is to get all customs? I say no customs because more people have not 100% collected customs on their setups as opposed to having done so. The more setups, the faster a tournament can be run.

It takes one fully unlocked 3DS. I think they've mentioned it several times on this thread so far, and that part of the logistics argument has basically been dismissed. (In other words, yes, actually getting them is a problem, but getting them on the Wii Us is not).

 

[Zeekfox]

Lately, I've kinda been wondering where all the customs went when watching tournament action on twitch. I literally haven't seen any since EVO. Smash Con was no customs. Xanadu stopped alternating weeks (unless I seriously just missed it). Other various tournaments haven't had them on either.

Sometimes I wonder if the resistance to customs is tied to For Glory not allowing them (and now, tournament mode not allowing customs without equipment). A lot of players like using 1111 characters because it can be confusing trying to practice on For Glory playing 1111 then vs friends playing a radically different set. What's weird to me is that turning customs on doesn't stop players from picking 1111 sets anyway, but you can't go somewhere with customs off and go "hey can I play my 2111 Pac-Man? (Freaky Fruit)" because they'll just be like, "nah man, customs are off."

Now I'm sure I'm generalizing a little bit there. I've never personally gone to a local Smash gathering or even challenged a streamer (many of them play viewer battles) and requested to have customs on, only to get turned down. But I really get the feeling that such a request would seem out of place and probably not accepted.

 

[Xeze]

Lately, I've kinda been wondering where all the customs went when watching tournament action on twitch. I literally haven't seen any since EVO. Smash Con was no customs. Xanadu stopped alternating weeks (unless I seriously just missed it). Other various tournaments haven't had them on either.

I'm afraid that no major tournament will use customs anymore. The hassle of just setting things up doesn't seem rewarding for the TOs and with the top players supporting a no-custom meta, I don't seem them being ever used at majors.
I support customs, even though I use 1111 sets most of the time (personal preference really) but only smaller scenes will make use of them from now on, sadly.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think it's more of a hassle to unlock every stage and character on every setup. Transfer takes less than 10 minutes when you have the 3DS.

 

[blackghost]

Auto-winning is not the line we have to cross before we have to consider something problematic.

Yea, him not winning is important. But the reasoning as to why he didn't win is more important than the end result. Why didn't it win? Personally I believe it's because certain characters just didn't lend themselves to leaving themselves vulnerable to the combo, as well as players in general just preparing for it.

in addition to esam's overconfidence he appeared reliant. This was the second time a player tried something like this at a major (second top player really) and it hasn't worked yet.
I miss watching your custom dk hunt carry people to the top of the stage. But i guess the scene has decided they'd rather doom certain charcters futures than even try them out.

If i was sakurai i'd feel really insulted at this point the amount of time that was put in to these moves and a community (that he annd nintendo have attempted to embrace) is ignoring what took the most time to create/program.

 

[LancerStaff]

If i was sakurai i'd feel really insulted at this point the amount of time that was put in to these moves and a community (that he annd nintendo have attempted to embrace) is ignoring what took the most time to create/program.

Sakurai went out of his way to say customs weren't supposed to be taken seriously and continues to lump them with the hilariously unbalanced equipment. I don't think he cares.

 

[Infinite901]

Since when did we listen to Sakurai about anything in any game?

 

[LancerStaff]

Since when did we listen to Sakurai about anything in any game?

What he says means a bit more when he's actively balancing the game around the defaults.

 

[GUIGUI]

I was hopping the new online tournaments option would encourage more people to try out Custom, with tourney allowing customs being available, but then Sakurai or whoever was in charge made the stupid decision to not make a distinction between customs and equipments in the filter setting. Come on.

That being said, it look like each updates make the characters more and more balanced and I hope to see at one point "for Glory" allowing customs (without equipments), thus allowing more people to accommodate themselves to Customs.

 

[blackghost]

Sakurai went out of his way to say customs weren't supposed to be taken seriously and continues to lump them with the hilariously unbalanced equipment. I don't think he cares.

he was refering to equipment in that statment. which is true. they wouldnt balance something that wasn't intended to be balanced.

 

[Zorcey]

I don't understand the argument about Customs being a practice nightmare. What is all that? It doesn't take long to upload Customs to tournament setups, so why all this angst about uploading them to your own setups?

 

[LancerStaff]

he was refering to equipment in that statment. which is true. they wouldnt balance something that wasn't intended to be balanced.

Thing is that they've done almost no balancing so far, just fixing bugs and major oversights like Pika's infinite when it's not completely irrelevant changes or buffs to "match" the default. Like Dragon Rush. Zard didn't need a nerf, and Dragon Rush wasn't nerfed enough to be balanced with the other moves. Or Fox's custom blasters getting the same buff that the default did, which they most certainly didn't need. If anything, customs are less balanced now then they were initially outside of the obvious BS.

 

[ぱみゅ]

To be fair, I think it's a safe bet not to change Customs if the meta hasn't developed. It took them a while to rebalance default characters, so rebalancing Customs without really knowing about them might be a bit too delicate.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

To be fair, I think it's a safe bet not to change Customs if the meta hasn't developed. It took them a while to rebalance default characters, so rebalancing Customs without really knowing about them might be a bit too delicate.

Maybe they'll put more priority into customs once they feel like the main game is balanced.
Maybe we even get something like customs FG so they can get data faster. I feel like the way customs are set up right now makes it hard to balance them properly. That the community doesn't use them very much in tourneys doesn't help either.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Maybe they'll put more priority into customs once they feel like the main game is balanced.
Maybe we even get something like customs FG so they can get data faster. I feel like the way customs are set up right now makes it hard to balance them properly. That the community doesn't use them very much in tourneys doesn't help either.

All they need to do is divorce moves from equipment for online modes and we're set

 

[Terotrous]

you really haven't done much research. extreme balloon trip was nerfed

Balloon Trip was nerfed in general and that affected Extreme, it wasn't directly nerfed. The nerf also isn't relevant to what EBT is used for (it lost distance, but it still has plenty of distance, and it's just as effective as ever at ledge stall).

 

[blackghost]

Thing is that they've done almost no balancing so far, just fixing bugs and major oversights like Pika's infinite when it's not completely irrelevant changes or buffs to "match" the default. Like Dragon Rush. Zard didn't need a nerf, and Dragon Rush wasn't nerfed enough to be balanced with the other moves. Or Fox's custom blasters getting the same buff that the default did, which they most certainly didn't need. If anything, customs are less balanced now then they were initially outside of the obvious BS.

this is what i'm talking aobut with perceptions of custom moves and facts. Custom moves cannot be less balanced today than at launch if BS has been removed. Thats just a basic fact. Not every single buff or nerf in the game is based on what a character needs. What are you even saying about dragon rush? "not balanced with the other moves?" what? It ha low kill power in exchnage for better startup and not hurting yourself and potentially being safe sometimes. foxes lasers got a buff? I dont remember that being talked about.

 

[LancerStaff]

this is what i'm talking aobut with perceptions of custom moves and facts. Custom moves cannot be less balanced today than at launch if BS has been removed. Thats just a basic fact. Not every single buff or nerf in the game is based on what a character needs. What are you even saying about dragon rush? "not balanced with the other moves?" what? It ha low kill power in exchnage for better startup and not hurting yourself and potentially being safe sometimes. foxes lasers got a buff? I dont remember that being talked about.

I said that besides the BS being removed (which I'm told wasn't that bad to begin with) it's become less balanced. I've been hearing Fox is top 3 in customs thanks to the "balancing", and Dragon Rush is still the obvious winner of Zard's Fspecials.

And obviously three of the four DLC characters become absolute trash with customs on, and Ryu barely scrapes by.