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What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

Have your opinions changed?


  • Total voters
    861

Xeze

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This is true and really bothers me. Melee fanboys seem to want to turn every smash game into melee 2.0. Melee was good but there is A LOT wrong with it. Smash 4 isn't melee, it's a completely separate game with its own mechanics and features. If we rob smash 4 of its customs we take away its most unique and progressive feature.
This is true. But even if you don't want to, Melee is always there to settle the "standards". Because it was successful and still is. Even if it is far for a perfect game. I like to play and watch it though, as I do with 64, Brawl and Smash 4 but Smash 4 is my competitive focus now.

Another thing that bothers me is, for instance, in Melee when you die at like 50% in Yoshi's Story from a Fox u-air, everyone is like "it's fine". But if you die early on like Delfino or so, everybody is like "DELFINO JANK", "THIS GAME IS DUMB", etc.
 

Raijinken

Smash Master
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It's always been a strong trend backed by poor competitive theory (and in many cases, supporting game design) to try to emulate everything about a "successful" competitive game regardless of the mechanic or trait being emulated is competitive, or mandatory, or even makes sense in another game's setting.

This article addresses the issue well though it's generally set in terms of Weiss Schwarz (compared to Magic the Gathering), and even brings up creator-goal disparities and that a game is only as competitive as its community makes it.

Which, from a competitive theory standpoint, completely invalidates any "but customs aren't getting balance patches" arguments. If customs are competitive (nothing suggests they aren't), then it's the community's own fault if it wants to ban a competitive element because of convenience or personal distaste for explosive balloons.
 
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blackghost

Smash Champion
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Jul 9, 2015
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It's always been a strong trend backed by poor competitive theory (and in many cases, supporting game design) to try to emulate everything about a "successful" competitive game regardless of the mechanic or trait being emulated is competitive, or mandatory, or even makes sense in another game's setting.

This article addresses the issue well though it's generally set in terms of Weiss Schwarz (compared to Magic the Gathering), and even brings up creator-goal disparities and that a game is only as competitive as its community makes it.

Which, from a competitive theory standpoint, completely invalidates any "but customs aren't getting balance patches" arguments. If customs are competitive (nothing suggests they aren't), then it's the community's own fault if it wants to ban a competitive element because of convenience or personal distaste for explosive balloons.
to clearify your points no one is saying a competive game cannot have bans. But the reasoning behind every sucessful ban i've ever seen has good reasoning behind it. ( i used to use smogon as an example but they lost their minds this generation). The main point is PERSONAL TASTE bears too much weight in this community on what is legal and what isn't. People almost lobby TOs to get rules that benefit them personally and not the game itself. It be like when wavedashing was discovered and people calling for it to never be used.
 

Raijinken

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to clearify your points no one is saying a competive game cannot have bans. But the reasoning behind every sucessful ban i've ever seen has good reasoning behind it. ( i used to use smogon as an example but they lost their minds this generation). The main point is PERSONAL TASTE bears too much weight in this community on what is legal and what isn't. People almost lobby TOs to get rules that benefit them personally and not the game itself. It be like when wavedashing was discovered and people calling for it to never be used.
That's part of it, yeah. I guess it's to be expected given how much game option variety Smash offers compared to other games, but the amount of mobocracy that goes into rulesets is pretty saddening.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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I'm so glad my local scene does customs, it allows everyone to play the character they want, how they want.

I would have never given palutena a shot until I tried out "speedy palutena" with light weight and super speed. It just promotes creativity.
 

MrGame&Rock

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I'm so glad my local scene does customs, it allows everyone to play the character they want, how they want.

I would have never given palutena a shot until I tried out "speedy palutena" with light weight and super speed. It just promotes creativity.
No need to rub it in our faces :p
 

LightLV

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
748
This is true and really bothers me. Melee fanboys seem to want to turn every smash game into melee 2.0. Melee was good but there is A LOT wrong with it. Smash 4 isn't melee, it's a completely separate game with its own mechanics and features. If we rob smash 4 of its customs we take away its most unique and progressive feature.
You're mad about customs, but ask yourself, what do you really gain by having them on? As people have pointed out, it is simply an illusion of more choice. Within months the most effective customs were already found, most characters don't even have "matchup specific" superior customs...just objectively better ones.

I personally don't care, the game is silly with or without customs on. And the current top tiers are so good that the top players mostly won without them. The problem comes from how horribly implemented they are for competitive play. Obtaining them is entirely random, you have to navigate like 4 screens to turn them on-off because you can't do it at character select...

But worst of all, it tries to give the player control over what is fair and unfair without the iron fist of "official" character balance to shut people up. This is pretty much the sole reason Miis are banned despite not being worth bans at all, while the thought of banning Shiek, Diddy or Rosalina never even crossed anyone's mind despite their regular movesets all being multiple times more ******** than anything you can achieve with customs.

Customs just overcomplicate everything about "competitive smash" while adding essentially nothing notable to the game. Even if they were implemented better, like being able to choose which you want without having to move menus during character select, they'd still be a pain in the ass for tournament setups because of the RNG factor.

It's probably just good ol' sakurai, working as intended.
 
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jet56

Smash Journeyman
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Jun 7, 2015
Messages
442
You're mad about customs, but ask yourself, what do you really gain by having them on? As people have pointed out, it is simply an illusion of more choice. Within months the most effective customs were already found, most characters don't even have "matchup specific" superior customs...just objectively better ones.

I personally don't care, the game is silly with or without customs on. And the current top tiers are so good that the top players mostly won without them. The problem comes from how horribly implemented they are for competitive play. Obtaining them is entirely random, you have to navigate like 4 screens to turn them on-off because you can't do it at character select...

But worst of all, it tries to give the player control over what is fair and unfair without the iron fist of "official" character balance to shut people up. This is pretty much the sole reason Miis are banned despite not being worth bans at all, while the thought of banning Shiek, Diddy or Rosalina never even crossed anyone's mind despite their regular movesets all being multiple times more ******** than anything you can achieve with customs.

Customs just overcomplicate everything about "competitive smash" while adding essentially nothing notable to the game. Even if they were implemented better, like being able to choose which you want without having to move menus during character select, they'd still be a pain in the *** for tournament setups because of the RNG factor.

It's probably just good ol' sakurai, working as intended.
i must ask, what exactly do you mean by "the game is silly"? people might take that the wrong way if they misinterpret it. and, i don't know where you are getting this idea that top players are winning without using the top tier characters, almost the entire top 8 at evo involved top tier characters. i should also mention the fact that it has been addressed multiple times that it takes one fully unlocked 3ds (which ive done btw) to get customs on a wii u. its really not that hard, and i don't understand why people keep using this argument, when it has been addressed already. "Customs just overcomplicate everything about 'competitive smash'" this is a good example of what i mean by people losing perspective. nothing personal or anything towards you, we all appreciate your input (thats why we are here), but there is nothing overly complicated about customs. it just takes a little time to look into it, thats all. even the best competitive players in melee STILL don't know every combo, trick, and frame data of the 29 characters, and they are still learning. the same goes for smash 4. and customs are meant to 'tweak' your characters, not change them outright. even characters with customs that dramatically change the way they are played (palutena) still adhere to a basic playstyle, because their movement, standard and smash attacks are all the same. perspective is the goal. Customs tweak a character, it does not change their concept.
 

Steelballray

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I'm so glad my local scene does customs, it allows everyone to play the character they want, how they want.

I would have never given palutena a shot until I tried out "speedy palutena" with light weight and super speed. It just promotes creativity.
You having the right to play the character you want however you want doesn't have any more weight than anti-customs people right to want custom out for whatever reason they have. Last time we argued you emphathised on this point fairly a lot and the least I can think of is that you (and the rest of pro-customs for that matter) are so self-righteous that it hurts. I feel entitled to this game just as much as you do. And I'm not the villain if I think that customs are trash and not that interesting or (compatitvely) good to play with. If you're saying its your right to play with your character however you want and thus customs should be allowed, I don't think it's any less stupid for anyone to say that equipments should be allowed for the same reason.


Also, how many pro players support customs? How many pro players think they're a good thing? I know they shouldn't be controlling how the game should be played but they also have experience with the game that you don't, and so their word is necessarily a thing that we should take into consideration when we argue stuff like customs or certain stages legality. But of course since they are against your cause its easier to disregard their opinions, right? I'm fairly positive if Zero supported customs not a single argument you guys make wouldnt mention that.
 

jet56

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You having the right to play the character you want however you want doesn't have any more weight than anti-customs people right to want custom out for whatever reason they have. Last time we argued you emphathised on this point fairly a lot and the least I can think of is that you (and the rest of pro-customs for that matter) are so self-righteous that it hurts. I feel entitled to this game just as much as you do. And I'm not the villain if I think that customs are trash and not that interesting or (compatitvely) good to play with. If you're saying its your right to play with your character however you want and thus customs should be allowed, I don't think it's any less stupid for anyone to say that equipments should be allowed for the same reason.


Also, how many pro players support customs? How many pro players think they're a good thing? I know they shouldn't be controlling how the game should be played but they also have experience with the game that you don't, and so their word is necessarily a thing that we should take into consideration when we argue stuff like customs or certain stages legality. But of course since they are against your cause its easier to disregard their opinions, right? I'm fairly positive if Zero supported customs not a single argument you guys make wouldn't mention that.
if i may ask, do you have quotes of these pro players against customs? or perhaps where it was from and when? not saying i don't believe you, but arguments becomes much stronger with evidence to back it up. and ill give you that, customs should not be allowed/disallowed based on entitlement, but on what it can do for the competitive scene. But, in my opinion, before we can judge what customs will do in a competitive scene, they have to be ALLOWED in a competitive scene first. my thoughts on it are as follows
1. give customs a whirl at competitive scene.
2. after a good amount of time passes (3 months is a good amount i think) reevaluate customs, based on tournament standings, popular customs builds, and any changes in the tier list.
3. Look at the results, and make our decision from there.

again, i could care less if the meta was anti or pro customs, but i don't want to condemn something before we have given it a fair try.
 

Illuminose

Smash Ace
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Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
if i may ask, do you have quotes of these pro players against customs? or perhaps where it was from and when? not saying i don't believe you, but arguments becomes much stronger with evidence to back it up. and ill give you that, customs should not be allowed/disallowed based on entitlement, but on what it can do for the competitive scene. But, in my opinion, before we can judge what customs will do in a competitive scene, they have to be ALLOWED in a competitive scene first. my thoughts on it are as follows
I am not interested in scouring Twitter for a couple hours to find quotes, but /at least/ ZeRo, Dabuz, ESAM, Nakat, Ally, and all of the top Japanese players are against customs. Off the top of my head.
1. give customs a whirl at competitive scene.
2. after a good amount of time passes (3 months is a good amount i think) reevaluate customs, based on tournament standings, popular customs builds, and any changes in the tier list.
3. Look at the results, and make our decision from there.

again, i could care less if the meta was anti or pro customs, but i don't want to condemn something before we have given it a fair try.
Except we already did this? We were running customs tournaments for months in preparation for EVO. We gave them a chance, decided that we didn't like them, and stopped using customs.
 

Steelballray

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if i may ask, do you have quotes of these pro players against customs? or perhaps where it was from and when? not saying i don't believe you, but arguments becomes much stronger with evidence to back it up. and ill give you that, customs should not be allowed/disallowed based on entitlement, but on what it can do for the competitive scene. But, in my opinion, before we can judge what customs will do in a competitive scene, they have to be ALLOWED in a competitive scene first. my thoughts on it are as follows
1. give customs a whirl at competitive scene.
2. after a good amount of time passes (3 months is a good amount i think) reevaluate customs, based on tournament standings, popular customs builds, and any changes in the tier list.
3. Look at the results, and make our decision from there.

again, i could care less if the meta was anti or pro customs, but i don't want to condemn something before we have given it a fair try.
https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/604848765195804672
https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/615610577545744384

and here's Esam thinking they are unbalanced. http://www.dailydot.com/esports/esam-smash-4-evo/
"I have zero doubt in my mind I am going to top eight at EVO," he says, "I know I am one of the best players in the world and I will prove it—especially now that I have the completely unfair customs at my disposal." Thats the jest of it.

About entitlement, I wasn't saying thats what thing should be based on, I just don't like people making a villain out of me because of my stance against customs. they can go ahead and make it sound like I am restricting their freedom and ruining theirfun, its not my fault customs are stupid and were implemented with zero regards to competitive play.

To my knowledge all three have been done, and more people are against customs now. So yeah, go figure.
 

jet56

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I am not interested in scouring Twitter for a couple hours to find quotes, but /at least/ ZeRo, Dabuz, ESAM, Nakat, Ally, and all of the top Japanese players are against customs. Off the top of my head.

Except we already did this? We were running customs tournaments for months in preparation for EVO. We gave them a chance, decided that we didn't like them, and stopped using customs.
my apologies illuminose, i was asking steelballray for quotes not you, should have been more clear on that.

anyways, yes EVO was a significant event, customs wise, ill be honest, i forgot that evo allowed customs. but some of the customs that were broken have been patched. (picakchus infinite for example.) i will look more into tourneys and see what customs have done, but from my understanding, EVO had the same amount of top tier characters in the top 8 as a non customs tourney would have. which means the conclusion can be drawn that customs DID NOT increase the viability of lower tier characters.

p.s. also @Steel, thank you for the quotes, this helps to further solidify that top players don't like the idea of a customs meta.
 
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MrGame&Rock

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Custom low-tier characters not winning at EVO = low tier characters don't become viable is a bit of a misnomer. Those characters like Ganon, Kirby, Samus, Bowser etc have untapped potential in customs, the problem at EVO was that we didn't have players on the level of Zero or Esam or Ally putting the kind of practice into those characters as those top players have been putting into their mains since Smash 4 became a thing. Newly great characters need players to use them, and given the limited timeframe of customs being a thing in the lead-up to EVO I wouldn't have expected someone to gain total mastery of a low tier, enough to use them against the world's best.
In many ways, the customs meta is a new meta, and the cries of jank makes sense to me in that context. When Smash 3DS first came out, people talked about Bowser and Mac the way people now are talking about custom Villager and windkong. If there's not enough time for the meta to adapt to these new elements, they'll stand out more and seem more objectionable. Dedicated customs players have already found neat ways around the jank of those two characters and others, btw.
I'm still excited about customs, and I really want to see this meta develop and grow like the default meta has, and I'm pretty sad that we're poised to shoot it down before that could happen.
 

Steelballray

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Custom low-tier characters not winning at EVO = low tier characters don't become viable is a bit of a misnomer. Those characters like Ganon, Kirby, Samus, Bowser etc have untapped potential in customs, the problem at EVO was that we didn't have players on the level of Zero or Esam or Ally putting the kind of practice into those characters as those top players have been putting into their mains since Smash 4 became a thing. Newly great characters need players to use them, and given the limited timeframe of customs being a thing in the lead-up to EVO I wouldn't have expected someone to gain total mastery of a low tier, enough to use them against the world's best.
In many ways, the customs meta is a new meta, and the cries of jank makes sense to me in that context. When Smash 3DS first came out, people talked about Bowser and Mac the way people now are talking about custom Villager and windkong. If there's not enough time for the meta to adapt to these new elements, they'll stand out more and seem more objectionable. Dedicated customs players have already found neat ways around the jank of those two characters and others, btw.
I'm still excited about customs, and I really want to see this meta develop and grow like the default meta has, and I'm pretty sad that we're poised to shoot it down before that could happen.
There's untapped potential to literally anything. People will utilise ways to make anything useful. This is how humans work. Look into Meta Knight for example. From being looked at like trash tier to being able to take a game of Nairo's ZSS. The best damn ZSS in the world.

Looking for balance and making low tiers viable doesn't change the fact that customs are trash and whatever kind of choice they give you is fake. Half of the low tiers will find ways to be viable once there are players dedicated enough to them. Also Sakurai is patching the game regularly and he managed to turn Ike into a very good character for example. I'd rather wait for him to patch stuff and wait for players to figure out how to utilise characters strengths than resort to customs to achieve some sort of imaginary balance.
 
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Raijinken

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There's untapped potential to literally anything. People will utilise ways to make anything useful. This is how humans work.

But that doesn't change the fact that customs are trash and whatever kind of choice they give you is fake. Half of the low tiers will find says to be viable once there are players dedicated enough to them. Also Sakurai is patching the game regularly and he managed to turn Ike into a very good character for example. I'd rather wait for him to patch stuff and wait for players to figure out how to utilise characters strengths than resort to customs to achieve some sort of imaginary balance.
This idea of fake choice really is spreading too quickly, and from players who, to all appearances, seem to not be maining one of the top few characters in the game. If there was an objective best, then it would have been used at EVO. People tout Marth as having a lot of "fake choice" customs, but they weren't used. And, as has been discussed to death recently in the actual EVO Moveset thread, there is a ton of blame to be put on how quickly we had to work for EVO, and frankly, time-pressured experimentation rarely works out to be optimal. There are numerous examples on that thread (and maybe even on this one, honestly the two overlap a lot in content and nonsense) of how very good custom options don't even exist in the moveset project because at the time of its EVO lock, they weren't seen as good (including several default moves on characters like Pac-Man).

You can call it fake choice all you want, but until everyone drops every character to go main Sheik, and we drop every stage to play on Smashville, there's plenty of evidence that people will consciously ignore "fake choice" in favor of "what they enjoy, or want to prove has potential." And if we somehow eventually decide that, in this list of moves that often have drastically different usage scenarios, that every character has exactly one optimal loadout for every scenario, at that time in the year 3000, we can both call additional sets "false choice" and also not care because we'll have reached optimum performance across the roster.

Until then, the very existence of metagame discoveries and tier progression not only in past Smash games, but in virtually all competitive asymmetrical games where choice plays a role, has rather decisively proven that if you leave it to be learned, someone will learn it, and use it to its full potential. And it will also take years for that to happen.

Besides, customs aren't about balance. They're about depth.
 

blackghost

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There's untapped potential to literally anything. People will utilise ways to make anything useful. This is how humans work.

But that doesn't change the fact that customs are trash and whatever kind of choice they give you is fake. Half of the low tiers will find says to be viable once there are players dedicated enough to them. Also Sakurai is patching the game regularly and he managed to turn Ike into a very good character for example. I'd rather wait for him to patch stuff and wait for players to figure out how to utilise characters strengths than resort to customs to achieve some sort of imaginary balance.
Lets slow down here. The fake choice point was already dismembered. we don't want to repeat that. more choices available doesn't lead to less choices. that doesnt make any sense. the statement "customs are trash" is a personal opinion don't use that as fact. Next your point about more low tiers placing well with more players on them may be true but there is no evidence that suggests that yet. there IS tournment data for custom characters that are definite low tiers in default and they improve in custom play. I love john numbers but he isn't in top 8 with default wii fit (prepatch wii fit as well) Nairo used custom b to fight shiek with a top tier character.
I'm sick of hearing how the last patch turn X into a good character. Ike still isn't played nor is wii fit, robin, marth, or kirby ( all buffed) characters that have been nerfed have had the most representation (fox, shiek, diddy, falcon?) Ninformed player is going to tell you custom moves lead to uniform balance and character usage, they will tell you the numbe rof viable characters increases a lot. And if you actually look at character boards you'll see that MOST custom moves are preference/matchup based. But then again most people firmly against custom moves in my experience either couldn't deal with one and hate all or never even bothered to learn them. Also i wouldn't use quotes from ESAM or ZERO about custom moves. Everything zero has said oncustom moves has been untrue epsecially the BS about skipping neutral game (while he mains shiek). ESAM got exposed at evo for OVERUSING HSB he didn't even play with his usual style he was so concerned with showing it was "OP" he didn't win. With thunder wave nerfed HSB is at best an airdodge punish or heavy read. Also MEwtwo king is heavily for custom moves (but that never gets mentioned).
 

MrGame&Rock

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There's untapped potential to literally anything. People will utilise ways to make anything useful. This is how humans work. Look into Meta Knight for example. From being looked at like trash tier to being able to take a game of Nairo's ZSS. The best damn ZSS in the world.

Looking for balance and making low tiers viable doesn't change the fact that customs are trash and whatever kind of choice they give you is fake. Half of the low tiers will find ways to be viable once there are players dedicated enough to them. Also Sakurai is patching the game regularly and he managed to turn Ike into a very good character for example. I'd rather wait for him to patch stuff and wait for players to figure out how to utilise characters strengths than resort to customs to achieve some sort of imaginary balance.
Except they're not and the choice offered is real in many cases. It depends on playstyle and matchup. I'll give you that a handful are currently in a position where their upsides are much more visible, but the perception that certain moves are just always better 100% of the time is not only false, it actually harms certain characters. The classic example is Pac-Man with meteor trampoline. But here are some others:

DK. Mew2King found a custom DK combo that only works with the default up-B, not windkong. Plus windkong offers a worse recovery and the jank can be just as harmful to the user as it is to the opponent.

Ganondorf. Wizkick vs Dropkick is a legitimate choice that ultimately comes down to both matchup and a player's personal playstyle. I prefer Dropkick but wizkick is so liked by other Ganons that the first custom set in the Project for Ganon is 2121, a set with wizkick. There's also the matter of his side-B. All three are viable options, and the choice, again, comes down to matchup and personal preference. I use the default, but both Flame Wave and Flame Chain have their uses. If Ganon's customs aren't a real choice then none has ever existed in a smash bros game. I can write the most about Ganon bc I main him in customs.

Charizard. Flare Blitz and Dragon Rush are both phenominal moves and I've seen Zards use both. Not to mention that all three of his Up-Bs have their uses. It comes down to playstyle and matchup, just like with Ganondorf.

Duck Hunt. There's so much about the gunmen and the can that's already been talked about.

These moves add real depth and allow for more real playstyles. And yes, some of them are direct upgrades like with EBT and TWave, but even then, they simply add more to what a character can do. They give the player more viable options while evidently punishing them for over-reliance on them. Customs are not trash. The mentality about them is.
 

Raijinken

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Except they're not and the choice offered is real in many cases. It depends on playstyle and matchup. I'll give you that a handful are currently in a position where their upsides are much more visible, but the perception that certain moves are just always better 100% of the time is not only false, it actually harms certain characters. The classic example is Pac-Man with meteor trampoline. But here are some others:

DK. Mew2King found a custom DK combo that only works with the default up-B, not windkong. Plus windkong offers a worse recovery and the jank can be just as harmful to the user as it is to the opponent.

Ganondorf. Wizkick vs Dropkick is a legitimate choice that ultimately comes down to both matchup and a player's personal playstyle. I prefer Dropkick but wizkick is so liked by other Ganons that the first custom set in the Project for Ganon is 2121, a set with wizkick. There's also the matter of his side-B. All three are viable options, and the choice, again, comes down to matchup and personal preference. I use the default, but both Flame Wave and Flame Chain have their uses. If Ganon's customs aren't a real choice then none has ever existed in a smash bros game. I can write the most about Ganon bc I main him in customs.

Charizard. Flare Blitz and Dragon Rush are both phenominal moves and I've seen Zards use both. Not to mention that all three of his Up-Bs have their uses. It comes down to playstyle and matchup, just like with Ganondorf.

Duck Hunt. There's so much about the gunmen and the can that's already been talked about.

These moves add real depth and allow for more real playstyles. And yes, some of them are direct upgrades like with EBT and TWave, but even then, they simply add more to what a character can do. They give the player more viable options while evidently punishing them for over-reliance on them. Customs are not trash. The mentality about them is.
EBT sacrifices offstage chasing and recovery range for vastly improved planking, and while that caters well to a dominant Villager strategy in the current meta that determines tiebreakers by percent, it isn't really a pure upgrade. Thunder Wave's poor range makes it bad in several matchups, and like all bad plays, over-relying on it to try to set up for a Heavy Skull Bash has caused more salty tears than the setups it can lead to.

Quite literally, the only custom in the game I think is a straight-upgrade over its default equivalent is Power Vision, and that requires several assumptions of skill and appropriate use of a counter to begin with (under those same assumptions you could count Iai Counter as well). For Sonic's playstyle (see the same present contingencies as Villager), Hammer Spin Dash might be a functional pure upgrade as well despite its weaker late hits.
 

blackghost

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Except they're not and the choice offered is real in many cases. It depends on playstyle and matchup. I'll give you that a handful are currently in a position where their upsides are much more visible, but the perception that certain moves are just always better 100% of the time is not only false, it actually harms certain characters. The classic example is Pac-Man with meteor trampoline. But here are some others:

DK. Mew2King found a custom DK combo that only works with the default up-B, not windkong. Plus windkong offers a worse recovery and the jank can be just as harmful to the user as it is to the opponent.

Ganondorf. Wizkick vs Dropkick is a legitimate choice that ultimately comes down to both matchup and a player's personal playstyle. I prefer Dropkick but wizkick is so liked by other Ganons that the first custom set in the Project for Ganon is 2121, a set with wizkick. There's also the matter of his side-B. All three are viable options, and the choice, again, comes down to matchup and personal preference. I use the default, but both Flame Wave and Flame Chain have their uses. If Ganon's customs aren't a real choice then none has ever existed in a smash bros game. I can write the most about Ganon bc I main him in customs.

Charizard. Flare Blitz and Dragon Rush are both phenominal moves and I've seen Zards use both. Not to mention that all three of his Up-Bs have their uses. It comes down to playstyle and matchup, just like with Ganondorf.

Duck Hunt. There's so much about the gunmen and the can that's already been talked about.

These moves add real depth and allow for more real playstyles. And yes, some of them are direct upgrades like with EBT and TWave, but even then, they simply add more to what a character can do. They give the player more viable options while evidently punishing them for over-reliance on them. Customs are not trash. The mentality about them is.
to continue your point i play ness, lucas, and kirby and custom palutena. ness custom give me the ability to recover like lucas and not get gimped for free and the psi magnet custom moves allow me to use my down b in matchups where it is worthless in default. kirby giant hammer gives kirby an option that you have to respect gives him a fear that no other character but ganon can really match. its helpful and fun to play with, metoer stone and leaping inhale are matchup dependent neither is just an upgrade. even upper cutter changes in effectiveness comparesd to default and palutena is well palutena. she's the ultimate machine of adaption and a skilled player is rewarded for it.
wouldn't call hammer spin dash a pure upgrade it has a giant blind spot its just hella hard to exploit that on a character moving so much
 
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MrGame&Rock

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EBT sacrifices offstage chasing and recovery range for vastly improved planking, and while that caters well to a dominant Villager strategy in the current meta that determines tiebreakers by percent, it isn't really a pure upgrade. Thunder Wave's poor range makes it bad in several matchups, and like all bad plays, over-relying on it to try to set up for a Heavy Skull Bash has caused more salty tears than the setups it can lead to.

Quite literally, the only custom in the game I think is a straight-upgrade over its default equivalent is Power Vision, and that requires several assumptions of skill and appropriate use of a counter to begin with (under those same assumptions you could count Iai Counter as well). For Sonic's playstyle (see the same present contingencies as Villager), Hammer Spin Dash might be a functional pure upgrade as well despite its weaker late hits.
Then, I have to ask, what about other customs considered to be pure upgrades? Gust Cape, Soaring Tornado on Doc, HSB, high-pressure FLUDD, and Twisting Fox come to mind. I'd appreciate your thoughts on them
 

adom4

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Then, I have to ask, what about other customs considered to be pure upgrades? Gust Cape, Soaring Tornado on Doc, HSB, high-pressure FLUDD, and Twisting Fox come to mind. I'd appreciate your thoughts on them
Dark fists is pretty much a straight upgrade for Ganondorf, not just because dark dive is horrible, it's that good of a move.
 

blackghost

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Then, I have to ask, what about other customs considered to be pure upgrades? Gust Cape, Soaring Tornado on Doc, HSB, high-pressure FLUDD, and Twisting Fox come to mind. I'd appreciate your thoughts on them
gust cape is slower/ a worse deflector. soaring tornado has less utility on stage and leave you wide open and has no hitbox until his arms are out. highpressure fluud takes longer to charge, twisting fox smaller hitbox on startup and can be escaped. HSB on whiff is a free punish.
Dark fists is pretty much a straight upgrade for Ganondorf, not just because dark dive is horrible, it's that good of a move.
dark fists can be blocked, default is a command grab. dark fists is also very specific on its hitboxes to actually kill. It may be able escaped.
 

adom4

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gust cape is slower/ a worse deflector. soaring tornado has less utility on stage and leave you wide open and has no hitbox until his arms are out. highpressure fluud takes longer to charge, twisting fox smaller hitbox on startup and can be escaped. HSB on whiff is a free punish.


dark fists can be blocked, default is a command grab. dark fists is also very specific on its hitboxes to actually kill. It may be able escaped.
Dark dive is a pathetic command grab, the knockback is horrible & it's better to choke them 99% of the time.
Also Dark fists only flunks on a few characters, on 90% of the roster it works perfectly.
 

Raijinken

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Then, I have to ask, what about other customs considered to be pure upgrades? Gust Cape, Soaring Tornado on Doc, HSB, high-pressure FLUDD, and Twisting Fox come to mind. I'd appreciate your thoughts on them
Gust Cape was actually recently discussed in the moveset project thread. Essentially, its sole boon is its windbox. This makes it a decent gimp tool against characters with very space-specific upB moves (i.e. Luigi, Mac, Megaman), and also results in any successful reversal being accompanied by a significant distance boost. If you hit a recovering opponent with that cape, they're essentially screwed. But that's where it stops. It's slower than default, and thus harder to use either proactively or as a read against projectiles. It also deals less damage, though the default cape isn't known for its damage potential either. I am inclined to think it has longer endlag as well, making it more punishable.

The default cape does most of that, but faster. It lacks the windbox amplification on reversals, but against most characters susceptible to such a reversal, the reversal itself is sufficiently lethal. Essentially, unless you need the windbox specifically (whether because many players will go red with rage at the presence of a windbox or for some other purpose), it's generally a faster way to accomplish the same thing. Its midair stalling potential is roughly the same, too.

Shocking Cape does away with the reflection and instead deals 11.2% damage, and having enough scaling to be a fairly quick-starting move with combo and kill potential depending on percent. It doesn't reverse the opponent, though. It also seems to have the longest endlag of the three, resulting in weaker (but still present) stalling ability.

Basically, unless your opponent just can't handle a windbox emotionally, I'd call the default cape best, and the other two situationally useful. I've not tested any of them enough on Doc to make that comparison, since he lacks the stalling capability for recovery.

As for Soaring Tornado for Doc, an oft-overlooked downside is that it's essentially impossible to combo into (making its kill power a rarity at best), even from itself (due to the windbox). It also does him no favors far offstage due to its endlag, making it primarily for near-stage recovery. Contrasting that, default tornado will give him a bit of vertical gain (though not to Luigi levels) if used at the apex of a jump, and has decent pseudo-combo options. I haven't tested Clothesline Tornado on Doc within the past few months. Essentially, I'd make the tornado decision based on whether my opponent was more likely to go for bottom blastline kills, or horizontal.

I need to test Heavy Skull Bash more, but I personally don't like the sheer endlag it has. I know Skull Bash isn't known for being very good in that regard either, though. Will have to test it more, but I'm not yet convinced it's objectively better. It's notably worse as a recovery, though Pikachu isn't wanting in that area. I've also not used Shocking Skull Bash in months, and can't attest to its strength. HSB is, though, one that I would be more inclined than less to consider a practical upgrade.

High Pressure Super Soaker FLUDD is a very good choice, but it can be harder to find time to charge it due to the slower charge. Generally better, but strangely didn't even take up most of Mario's custom project slots.

Twisting Fox's start up time is obnoxious, and it moves very slowly. If you don't catch your opponent in it, it's highly punishable, and is also punishable on shield due to its high ending lag. Very strong when used right, but probably not a pure upgrade.

Edit: Adding Dark Fists, not only is it blockable, it doesn't stagespike someone who is on the ledge without invincibility. While I'd personally always use it because it gives a punish-heavy character an even better punish, it does have situations where it's less than ideal. Apex Screw Attack is similar in function and limitations for Samus.
 
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Steelballray

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I have never read a discussion regarding this point, but you all seem to have since you decided to disregard all of my post and tear down that you can.
The fake choice point was already dismembered. we don't want to repeat that. more choices available doesn't lead to less choices.
Certain customs will be used in certain match-ups because they are strictly better. Right now you use whatever you are more comfortable with because knowledge about them is underdeveloped, but sooner than later there will be an objective best (for the match-up) So where will be your choice then? And you all mentioned yourselves that there are customs that are strict upgrades so.. okay? It remain still no more than a pseudo choice.

that doesnt make any sense. the statement "customs are trash" is a personal opinion don't use that as fact.
It is a fact when there are many trashy ones and even more that are just a generic "slower but stronger" "weaker but has more range" type of crap.

your point about more low tiers placing well with more players on them may be true but there is no evidence that suggests that yet.
Mr.R's MK does. And you're so desperate to try to ruin my argument that you are willing to say that something that took place in literally every game ever isn't going to happen in Sm4sh. When it already happened.

I'm sick of hearing how the last patch turn X into a good character. Ike still isn't played nor is wii fit, robin, marth, or kirby ( all buffed)
When did the patches take place and how much time were people given to get better with them and their new changes? Also, the regular top players are STILL better and will still place the highest even if some **** tier character got buffed to hell and back.

The choice you're speaking of is one that will only disappear once people figure customs inside out. Unless of course you are playing to have ~fun~
 
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Raijinken

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Mr.R's MK does.
People no longer consider Metaknight low tier, largely because his matchups against Sheik and Rosalina are so good.

That said, tiers are dynamic, and in Smash4, less relevant than generally before. And we'd have never found out Metaknight was a good character pick against Sheik and Rosalina if we'd just banned him because we thought he was bad or not worth learning.

Lastly, logically speaking, if "customs are trash" is true because customs exist that are subjectively trash, then "characters are trash" is also true, as characters like Samus and Mewtwo exist and are subjectively trash.
 
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Steelballray

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Thats what I was saying. If its about making low tiers viable than thats going to happen because the patches and because people will discover new tricks and playstyles to make them low tiers viable.

If its about depth, than I see no depth that can be achieved using them, and in reverse we get to deal with campy villager, HSB Pika and windkong. I don't see how the trade off is worth it.
 

Raijinken

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Windkong is a joke, but feel free to complain about it if it makes you feel better.
Villager is campy regardless of customs, and I still believe a revision to our time-out system would alleviate the issue. Alternately, if it's so degenerate, ban the issue and leave the rest.
I'm still not seeing how HSBChu is any worse than default Sheik, unless ESAM flopping secretly meant it was that good. Its punishability on miss is rare amongst Pikachu's move choices, and the fact that it's actually used unlike regular Skull Bash seems like a good thing to me.
 

blackghost

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I have never read a discussion regarding this point, but you all seem to have since you decided to disregard all of my post and tear down that you can.
Certain customs will be used in certain match-ups because they are strictly better. Right now you use whatever you are more comfortable with because knowledge about them is underdeveloped, but sooner than later there will be an objective best (for the match-up) So where will be your choice then? And you all mentioned yourselves that there are customs that are strict upgrades so.. okay? It remain still no more than a pseudo choice.

It is a fact when there are many trashy ones and even more that are just a generic "slower but stronger" "weaker but has more range" type of crap.

Mr.R's MK does. And you're so desperate to try to ruin my argument that you are willing to say that something that took place in literally every game ever isn't going to happen in Sm4sh. When it already happened.

When did the patches take place and how much time were people given to get better with them and their new changes? Also, the regular top players are STILL better and will still place the highest even if some **** tier character got buffed to hell and back.

The choice you're speaking of is one that will only disappear once people figure customs inside out. Unless of course you are playing to have ~fun~

Until one of these scary camping villagers win something I really couldnt care less. It just like the terrifying HSB. or the terrifying windkong its all theoretical and fear-mongering.

MK was never trash he simply wasn't a god. no one tried him out when the game came out simply because he wasn't the sme as brawl (which we knew was gonna happen).

the sterotypes for custom moves istreated like its 100 percent true its not really all that accurate plus slower or fastter doesnt equal better. we mentioned ONE custom out of some 250 plus moves thats a straight upgrade i can name one default thats a straight upgrade to its custom moves so what? this argument that everyone will use what is objecively better isn't true in the default metagame because more than shiek is used in tournment play and more than metaknight is used to fight shiek people play with who they like and are comfortable with over who's the best all the time.
and in every other smash game low tiers rose up to become viable? when did a zelda win a major in melee or even compete? or game and watch in melee? when did ness compete well in brawl? every smash game has had its use of characters DECREASE over time not INCREASE. thats what hapens in every smash game.
 

MrGame&Rock

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Thats what I was saying. If its about making low tiers viable than thats going to happen because the patches and because people will discover new tricks and playstyles to make them low tiers viable.
The problem is that all the discovering of new tricks and patches won't fix fundamental, crippling issues with many of the low tier characters who benefit from customs. I doubt a patch could give Ganondorf an approach tool or a way to deal with projectiles, but Wizard's Dropkick does just that. A patch wouldn't be able to give Ganon what Flame Chain gives him, either. And it's the same with WFT and DK and Marth. These give different kinds of improvements than a patch could. Plus, we can't even depend on patches to improve those characters.
 

Raijinken

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The problem is that all the discovering of new tricks and patches won't fix fundamental, crippling issues with many of the low tier characters who benefit from customs. I doubt a patch could give Ganondorf an approach tool or a way to deal with projectiles, but Wizard's Dropkick does just that. A patch wouldn't be able to give Ganon what Flame Chain gives him, either. And it's the same with WFT and DK and Marth. These give different kinds of improvements than a patch could. Plus, we can't even depend on patches to improve those characters.
This is all essentially true.

That said, and I apologize for being a bit of a broken record, but we shouldn't push customs as an attempt to manually balance the game, nor to manually unbalance it. A customs meta is not the same as a defaults meta: it's comparing apples and oranges. No matter how the ruleset is set, it WILL affect character viability in some way, shape, or form. Imagine if we said the only legal stage was Final Destination (a concept I support giving a trial). Or, not even going that far, what if we just decided Smashville is banned because the balloon is essentially random? If we take away Sheik's best stage, she gets comparatively worse. Just like if we give her more threats.

Since the ruleset, by nature, affects balance, it really shouldn't be an argument for or against much of anything. Things should be adopted into rulesets for what they offer, and removed from rulesets when they have uncompetitive properties (i.e. random spawning items, or everyone's favorite Space Pterodactyl). Balance will fall where it will regardless of what we do about it (especially with patches tweaking things gradually).
 
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Ninj4pikachu

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Also, how many pro players support customs? How many pro players think they're a good thing? I know they shouldn't be controlling how the game should be played but they also have experience with the game that you don't, and so their word is necessarily a thing that we should take into consideration when we argue stuff like customs or certain stages legality. But of course since they are against your cause its easier to disregard their opinions, right? I'm fairly positive if Zero supported customs not a single argument you guys make wouldnt mention that.
Pro players are biased because they would rather the meta not change. The more complex the meta the harder it is to be top due to needing more knowledge and skills to adapt. They don't want to learn new matchups, they don't want more characters to be competitively viable, and they don't want anyone to knock their character off of top tier.

But I get what your saying, your not "taking away" my right to customs and you are certainly not a villain for being against them. I personally don't even use them on my main. I just think it makes the meta more interesting.

Btw it's YOUR OPINION that customs are trash and its YOUR OPINION that they don't add more options. Please do not parade opinions around as if they were facts. It's ignorant to throw blanket statements like those around, especially since there are plenty of points against yours.

But your right about customs not equaling balance. That should not be the reason they are implemented if they ever are. Because the game is already being patched
 

Rikkhan

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Please do not parade opinions around as if they were facts. It's ignorant to throw blanket statements like those around, especially since there are plenty of points against yours.
How funny you throw that quote and you said:

Pro players are biased because they would rather the meta not change. The more complex the meta the harder it is to be top due to needing more knowledge and skills to adapt. They don't want to learn new matchups, they don't want more characters to be competitively viable, and they don't want anyone to knock their character off of top tier.
I feel liberals posts had gone from "customs/FLSS are good and we should use it" to "everyone is a moron if they disagree with the way I like to play" (not literal but you get the feeling...).

This mentality is turning liberals into a big circlejerk, "oh you disagree with me? you are ignorant/afraid!", I'm pro customs but I believe custom off meta is also good, I dont go talking **** about pro players and being sarcastic/condecending like most liberal are becoming.

Custom on better? that's an opinion, please do not parade opinions around as if they were facts. It's ignorant to throw blanket statements like those around, especially since there are plenty of points against yours.

By the way this also applies to stage liberals.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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How funny you throw that quote and you said:



I feel liberals posts had gone from "customs/FLSS are good and we should use it" to "everyone is a moron if they disagree with the way I like to play" (not literal but you get the feeling...).

This mentality is turning liberals into a big circlejerk, "oh you disagree with me? you are ignorant/afraid!", I'm pro customs but I believe custom off meta is also good, I dont go talking **** about pro players and being sarcastic/condecending like most liberal are becoming.

Custom on better? that's an opinion, please do not parade opinions around as if they were facts. It's ignorant to throw blanket statements like those around, especially since there are plenty of points against yours.

By the way this also applies to stage liberals.
Technically you can't argue that pro players aren't a biased source... And technically a more complex a meta inherently means that you will need more knowledge to have a full understanding of it.... So they weren't opinions...
 
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Steelballray

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Technically you can't argue that pro players aren't a biased source... And technically a more complex a meta inherently means that you will need more knowledge to have a full understanding of it.... So they weren't opinions...
And technically their opinion remains the one of the expert in this argument. The one that faced customs head on in the biggest stages. Yours is the one of a mere spectator.

Go ahead and downplay their opinions as much as you wish but if their opinions matter not then why should yours?

EDIT: How many pros are with customs and how many are against them? Go ahead an say they are biased but is it really possible that ALL of them are? Can you say for sure that all of them are lazy and just don't want to learn new matchups or whatever? If customs were really good at least a few of these players would be willing to show support but till now only M2K does and he think Custom Villager for example should be banned.
 
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ARGHETH

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Guys, this is literally going nowhere. Seriously, you should probably start talking about...well, anything else, really.
(and please don't go the he/she started it route)

Thats what I was saying. If its about making low tiers viable than thats going to happen because the patches and because people will discover new tricks and playstyles to make them low tiers viable.
This doesn't always work, and honestly patches aren't happening very often at all. They also generally only patch a few characters at a time. "New tricks and playstyles" can push low tiers only so far, as they probably won't be very many new tricks found tat will push low tiers to viability especially since there's little incentive to main low tiers.
 
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Ninj4pikachu

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And technically their opinion remains the one of the expert in this argument. The one that faced customs head on in the biggest stages. Yours is the one of a mere spectator.

Go ahead and downplay their opinions as much as you wish but if their opinions matter not then why should yours?
Excuese me but do you know me?... How do u know I didn't compete in EVO? How do you know if I do tournaments regularly?.

And if you read, I never said their opinions don't matter. Your opinion and my opinion have just as much validity as theirs assuming it has logic.

AGAIN with your bold assumptions!! Please think before you speak sir.
 

Steelballray

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Excuese me but do you know me?... How do u know I didn't compete in EVO?
Did you? and how far did you go?
And if you read, I never said their opinions don't matter. Your opinion and my opinion have just as much validity as theirs assuming it has logic.
They still have the experience and game understanding that we do not. I reckon thats why they are at the top. They didn't luck their way up there. They put effort into the game that we did not.

AGAIN with your bold assumptions!! Please think before you speak sir.
Hmm?
 
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Lustful_Kaiser

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I generally don't like customs since most of the times the tier list is rated without customs, and most of the times tournaments don't have customs on. Even though their is a tier list for customs on its just weird looking at since its not used as much as without custom tier list. People think that I don't like customs since they assume that I don't like them because "they are broken". If their was to be a broken custom move honestly it would have to be any that is glitching; haven't heard any that is glitching at the moment. I just prefer without customs since its the normal moveset of the character and also can have a bit of data in for glory and tournaments
 
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