What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Ninj4pikachu]

Did you? and how far did you go?
They still have the experience and game understanding that we do not. I reckon thats why they are at the top. They didn't luck their way up there. They put effort into the game that we did not.

Hmm?

Whether I competed or not is irrelevant to my points, you aren't going to belittle somone on this site just because they didn't go to a specific tournament.

What info could they possibly have that I don't have access to right here on this site?!?! I have all the frame data, combo stings, all the patch changes... What is this illusive info you speak of?

And just because they are good at a game doesn't mean they have any clue as to how it should be balanced or what the rules should be. There is no reason to belive they have any more insight into how the meta will develope than you or me.

 

[Steelballray]

Whether I competed or not is irrelevant to my points, you aren't going to belittle somone on this site just because they didn't go to a specific tournament.

Now you are the one who is assuming things. Welcome to the club.

What info could they possibly have that I don't have access to right here on this site?!?! I have all the frame data, combo stings, all the patch changes... What is this illusive info you speak of?

You are being too idealistic. Not everyone is equal. Some people are better and it is that way because of experience and because of insight.
To elaborate more:
Its like comparing a native speaker to someone who learned the language. Sometimes the leaner will get to a high level in this language and will be able to converse just as any native speaker can, but in MOST cases the native speaker will have more understanding of the language and will be able to express his points in better and more ways, while the learner will be stuck trying to find the easier ways to get his points across in the simplest ways to avoid making a mistake. Its the same reason you rarely see someone become a poet in their second language. There's this SENSE for things that can't always be acquired. This sense is the difference between those who are at the top and the rest of the people.

And just because they are good at a game doesn't mean they have any clue as to how it should be balanced or what the rules should be. There is no reason to believe they have any more insight into how the meta will develop than you or me.

I disagree with you. Someone who reached the peaks will have more experience and insight than someone dwelling at the bottom, Its for this reason that in football matches its very common for after-game shows producers to call up old players to give their insight about the game. Because they have been there in the field and that alone allowed them to see what a normal spectator can never usually comprehend.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Now you are the one who is assuming things. Welcome to the club.

You are being too idealistic. Not everyone is equal. Some people are better and it is that way because of experience and because of insight.
To elaborate more:
Its like comparing a native speaker to someone who learned the language. Sometimes the leaner will get to a high level in this language and will be able to converse just as any native speaker can, but in MOST cases the native speaker will have more understanding of the language and will be able to express his points in better and more ways, while the learner will be stuck trying to find the easier ways to get his points across in the simplest ways to avoid making a mistake. Its the same reason you rarely see someone become a poet in their second language. There's this SENSE for things that can't always be acquired. This sense is the difference between those who are at the top and the rest of the people.

I disagree with you. Someone who reached the peaks will have more experience and insight than someone dwelling at the bottom, Its for this reason that in football matches its very common for after-game shows producers to call up old players to give their insight about the game. Because they have been there in the field and that alone allowed them to see what a normal spectator can never usually comprehend.

The old football players are asked about stratigie, they aren't asked to comment on the rules of the game therefore this is a false analogue.

I like your analogy with the second language thing. I had never thought about that before and it really showed me how you have sense for your first language or something like smash. But even so this doesn't mean that if you're good that you know what's fair or how a change will affect the meta. The subjects are unrelated.

 

[Reila]

I think as long as people don't start asking for banning certain customs, there's no reason to not use them. Banning stuff is so lame.

 

[Steelballray]

I like your analogy with the second language thing. I had never thought about that before and it really showed me how you have sense for your first language or something like smash. But even so this doesn't mean that if you're good that you know what's fair or how a change will affect the meta. The subjects are unrelated.

Thanks for your compliment, and thanks for giving me the time and input. I really enjoyed this argument, but I guess we are better calling it a day since no progress is being made. Onto the next one, my friend.

 

[Shaya]

I'm glad the argument alleviated itself a bit, but I will comment on one point.
Your opinion is worth less than someone who in contrast is an active tournament attending player. It is virtually impossible to use only theory not smelt in the furnace of stress, competition and for gain (and loss) to amass a solid position on any matter that is reputable. Top players aren't necessarily articulate, they're often running in a more primal form (as being analytical and expressive are both individual abilities that require practice and these don't directly correlate to player skill [analytical minds are very common among top players though]).

Once you're in that pool then your anecdotes hold a lot more weight, you're likely to understand perspectives among those better because they're natural in said environment. But for every person that isn't apart of that "niche" (what should be a majority more so than a niche, mind you) who tries to force their wills on those who are fosters A LOT of contempt from players. This is a large factor to why you won't be hearing too many publicly broadcasted stances from a wide-array of known players because they straight up feel "they don't understand nor know what they're talking about" [and if they don't go to tournaments there isn't a point to explaining; new blood at least around here tend to be predisposed towards 'standard' settings], they won't hear much of a peep or any form of resistance on facebook (primary place for active players to talk among themselves) because it isn't some sort of perverse illogical top players who hate the meta changing strong-arming others.

At this point the only thing keeping customs alive (just as much as what's keeping non-customs alive) is active player support. If half your scene or more wants customs at their local/regional/etc tournaments, chances are your scene will be keeping customs. I'm sure similar in-scene polls have happened like mine and with similar (or larger hyper majority) results, 70%+ or so were anti-customs, with honestly many people questioning the no's as either trolling melee players or unknown "randoms" (it's usually easy to tell by the lack of "mutual friends", most regions have just about everyone they've met at tournaments on facebook).
So now we're customs off tournaments with relatively free Miis and the world keeps turning without complaints (our DK/Palu/Pac/Sonic/Fox/etc players are all anti-customs).

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I'm glad the argument alleviated itself a bit, but I will comment on one point.
Your opinion is worth less than someone who in contrast is an active tournament attending player. It is virtually impossible to use only theory not smelt in the furnace of stress, competition and for gain (and loss) to amass a solid position on any matter that is reputable. Top players aren't necessarily articulate, they're often running in a more primal form (as being analytical and expressive are both individual abilities that require practice and these don't directly correlate to player skill [analytical minds are very common among top players though]).

Once you're in that pool then your anecdotes hold a lot more weight, you're likely to understand perspectives among those better because they're natural in said environment. But for every person that isn't apart of that "niche" (what should be a majority more so than a niche, mind you) who tries to force their wills on those who are fosters A LOT of contempt from players. This is a large factor to why you won't be hearing too many publicly broadcasted stances from a wide-array of known players because they straight up feel "they don't understand nor know what they're talking about" [and if they don't go to tournaments there isn't a point to explaining; new blood at least around here tend to be predisposed towards 'standard' settings], they won't hear much of a peep or any form of resistance on facebook (primary place for active players to talk among themselves) because it isn't some sort of perverse illogical top players who hate the meta changing strong-arming others.

At this point the only thing keeping customs alive (just as much as what's keeping non-customs alive) is active player support. If half your scene or more wants customs at their local/regional/etc tournaments, chances are your scene will be keeping customs. I'm sure similar in-scene polls have happened like mine and with similar (or larger hyper majority) results, 70%+ or so were anti-customs, with honestly many people questioning the no's as either trolling melee players or unknown "randoms" (it's usually easy to tell by the lack of "mutual friends", most regions have just about everyone they've met at tournaments on facebook).
So now we're customs off tournaments with relatively free Miis and the world keeps turning without complaints (our DK/Palu/Pac/Sonic/Fox/etc players are all anti-customs).

My opinion isn't worth less if I am also an active tournament attending player! Either way ethose is only one part of an argument and worthless without logos. I go when I can, and practice a lot with the people who go to my college. There is just no reason to revere the top players words as gospel. Their strategies are great, but some of them have pretty unorthodox ideals about the meta or how the game should be run.

What If I was mentally ******** BUT was like super good at smash bros anyways? Like I couldnt tie my shoe, but was an albert einstine of smash. It doesn't matter how good I would be at smash, if I have radicle ideas that don't make sense you shouldn't listen to me regardless of my credentials as a top player.

 

[Raijinken]

It's a bit odd that our opinion only matters if we regularly attend tournaments, which no longer (and in many cases, didn't or unenthusiastically did) run the ruleset we're trying to push.

Classic Catch 22. You can't argue for customs unless you go to customs tournaments, but you can't go to customs tournaments because they aren't being argued for.

Either way, any bipartisan system turns into a circlejerk. Pro-customs/ruleset liberals/whatever are all "Yeah man those are cool ideas we should run 'em too bad nobody else does." Anti-customs/ruleset conservatives/whatever are all "Man look at all these people wanting to overcomplicate our perfect 5-stage 4-specials per character hand crafted vintage metagame. It's a good thing we're in control hohoho!"

From a problem-solving stance, more often than not it takes an outsider to ask why. Of course, the effectiveness of that requires the insiders to give a hoot or even perceive a problem, which is decidedly not happening in the Smash community.

 

[Unknownkid]

Then, I have to ask, what about other customs considered to be pure upgrades? Gust Cape, Soaring Tornado on Doc, HSB, high-pressure FLUDD, and Twisting Fox come to mind. I'd appreciate your thoughts on them

Until Sakurai finally patch Final Cutter to Auto Snaps the ledge, Upper Cutter is a pure Upgrade for Kirby.

 

[Rikkhan]

I think Custom offs meta focuses more in character development while Custom On meta focuses more in match-up knowledge, I could see tournament goers prefering custom off meta, since the top priority from a player is improving his fundamentals, custom off meta provides less variables because you dont have to worry about things like wind kong or stalliger.

Another thing is that it could be pretty hard for some people is to find let say a good stalliger in his region, in a way it's kind of unfair that you get punished because no one plays that character with that customs, so if a top 10 player drowns in a tournament pool to a mediocre player because of a custom, can we say its healthy for the meta? will go like "lol he should have spent less time improving his character and more in learning customs"

 

[Shaya]

My opinion isn't worth less if I am also an active tournament attending player! Either way ethose is only one part of an argument and worthless without logos. I go when I can, and practice a lot with the people who go to my college. There is just no reason to revere the top players words as gospel. Their strategies are great, but some of them have pretty unorthodox ideals about the meta or how the game should be run.

What If I was mentally ******** BUT was like super good at smash bros anyways? Like I couldnt tie my shoe, but was an albert einstine of smash. It doesn't matter how good I would be at smash, if I have radicle ideas that don't make sense you shouldn't listen to me regardless of my credentials as a top player.

I avoided directly assuming/asserting you were not, but fleshed out the point nevertheless. And my point wasn't take top players words as gospel, but rather they're just the ones you sporadically hear about while it's in-scene dynamics that are pointing the same direction with acceptance. The right places for creating change aren't really "here", but at the local level and upwards (likely requiring a hyped national or major to pull more scenes into it while avoiding them transitioning towards the widespread stance, normal by nature).
And your example has happened before (predominantly so) and the result is as you expected, people don't tend to widely agree with crazy opinions. If active players listened to top players only and rather not developing a preference themselves through tournament experience, then ESAM's #2 Pika (and he felt the exact same in Brawl) would be more frequently accepted (etc etc).

-

Opinion maybe shouldn't matter, but that doesn't stop you articulating an argument that people can gravitate towards*, a thread like this isn't futile, only arguments that blame tournament and/or top players for not sharing your sentiments.

* or promoting it just like everyone else does (running/supporting events)

 

[Hippieslayer]

Erh you have to accept the point Shaya makes, nevertheless it's worth pointing out that top players tend to want whatever lets them win the easiest and/or with the least amount of effort. Cocaine logic I believe Sirlin called it. Customs shake the meta up a lot, its not certain that the best player will win until the custom meta has solidified and everyone is familiar with it, that hasn't happened so far, and that was certainly not the case at Evo where there were tons of mishaps and poor decisions from top players due to lack of knowledge.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Isn't that because we haven't given customs a chance yet though? We can't learn about what we ignore. And I'm no expert but zero won EVO and is it not safe to say he is reasonably the best based on his track record?... I mean I'm sure we can assume his wins aren't a miraculous fluke. Dat boy just don't lose

Really not trying to argue but these points are valid.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Isn't that because we haven't given customs a chance yet though? We can't learn about what we ignore. And I'm no expert but zero won EVO and is it not safe to say he is reasonably the best based on his track record?... I mean I'm sure we can assume his wins aren't a miraculous fluke. Dat boy just don't lose

Really not trying to argue but these points are valid.

Clearly it is imo, the thing is unless customs get to be the standard they'll always be jank in practice, and tourney attenders and top players base their opinions on what happens in practice, generally speaking, direct experience trumphs theorycrafting for most people, even when the theorycrafting is quite obviously in the right or at least has a major point which shouldn't just be dismissed. Honestly, as much as I support customs, things are looking grim, they might have a revival later on but it'll take a damn while until they are given a chance again. There's too much negative feelings hovering over customs, gl beating those with rational arguments, have experienced those first hand, there's no getting through.

 

[Steelballray]

Clearly it is imo, the thing is unless customs get to be the standard they'll always be jank in practice, and tourney attenders and top players base their opinions on what happens in practice, generally speaking, direct experience trumphs theorycrafting for most people, even when the theorycrafting is quite obviously in the right or at least has a major point which shouldn't just be dismissed. Honestly, as much as I support customs, things are looking grim, they might have a revival later on but it'll take a damn while until they are given a chance again. There's too much negative feelings hovering over customs, gl beating those with rational arguments, have experienced those first hand, there's no getting through.

Yeah. Taking me for instance, the main reason I hate customs is because I play too many games with counter picking aspects included and so I prefer Smash doesn't have that. I mean, I still believe in my arguments and all to a big enough degree, but even if all of my points where 100%, proven wrong, if I had the choice I'd still want them gone.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Yeah. Taking me for instance, the main reason I hate customs is because I play too many games with counter picking aspects included and so I prefer Smash doesn't have that. I mean, I still believe in my arguments and all to a big enough degree, but even if all of my points where 100%, proven wrong, if I had the choice I'd still want them gone.

That sounds kinda spiteful no?

 

[Raijinken]

That sounds kinda spiteful no?

I can understand his feelings on that note (I suck at technical precision and reaction so while I like Melee, I'll never compete in it, and I don't want Smash4 to ever approach its level of necessary technical precision). It is spiteful, but then again, so is any decision to not support the Smash scene just because they don't run <insert ruleset component here>. Humans are spiteful.

That said, it's unfortunately less of a discussion where a middle ground can be found than, say, other alternate rulesets like doubles, crew battles, or (at least in parts of NC) SLHG that somehow get run alongside regular events. It doesn't seem like there's enough middle ground support for customs (i.e. people who don't use them but don't hate them) for many TOs to run Default and Customs at the same event, which would really be the nicest way to appease both sides.

Of course, at the same time, very few people try arguing that Doubles is the One Ruleset to Rule Them All, like most pro-customs players push.

It'd just be a nicer scenario if more people were neutral instead of there being this huge rift.

Until Sakurai finally patch Final Cutter to Auto Snaps the ledge, Upper Cutter is a pure Upgrade for Kirby.

I could agree with that, though the spike (on the rare occasion it happens) is really satisfying.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Haha that's funny, because I myself don't even use customs, but feel they create a deeper game. I like strategy, and smash is a fighting game that actually incorporates strategy more than any other fighting game on the market. It's truly a unique series and the newest edition smash 4 has the potential to have the deepest meta due to having more stages, more characters, and most importantly different attack sets to chose from. Smash has never been about mindlessly punching in combos until your opponent dies. It's about forcing your opponent offstage by denying them options and punishing openings and customs offer a plethora of new ways to do this. It creates a game that is way bigger than Brawl or melee could ever be.

 

[Myed]

Smash has never been about mindlessly punching in combos until your opponent dies.

I agree that Smash excels in mental depth rather than the technical depth of traditional fighting games, but there's no need to be rude about it.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I agree that Smash excels in mental depth rather than the technical depth of traditional fighting games, but there's no need to be rude about it.

'Twas not my intention to be condescending. I'll chose my words more carefully in the future.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Honestly, two different events for customs and not could legitimately work. The metas and tier lists are very different between the two and this would give customs necessary time to actually develop a meta. I'm as pro-customs as they get and I'd be totally ok with two events like they do for singles and doubles.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Honestly, two different events for customs and not could legitimately work. The metas and tier lists are very different between the two and this would give customs necessary time to actually develop a meta. I'm as pro-customs as they get and I'd be totally ok with two events like they do for singles and doubles.

Sounds fun, it gives us more to do at smash events and would give people a great opportunity to enter both kinds of tournaments so they can have a taste of the other side while still having the tournament that they want. It's essentially "have your cake and eat it too". I'm not here to say that a custom meta is inherently better because they are both viable, all I want is equal representation. Will that not appease everyone? Would you be offended if at your next tournament they had an event for customs? I really don't think this would bother anti-custom people.

 

[Raijinken]

Sounds fun, it gives us more to do at smash events and would give people a great opportunity to enter both kinds of tournaments so they can have a taste of the other side while still having the tournament that they want. It's essentially "have your cake and eat it too". I'm not here to say that a custom meta is inherently better because they are both viable, all I want is equal representation. Will that not appease everyone? Would you be offended if at your next tournament they had an event for customs? I really don't think this would bother anti-custom people.

You might be surprised what kind of nonsense offends parts of the Smash community. Like the existence of any game but <insert favorite here>, for instance.

Besides, I'm sure some particularly vocal people would just love to complain that resources for their kind of tournament are being spent on that other ruleset. And I bet, with the relative difficulty of having a customs-ready setup, that customs would draw most of the ire and, perhaps, have an even harder time than singles/doubles to get enough setups (depending on your tournament, one I went to a while back struggled to get enough setups to run Smash4 at all).

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

You might be surprised what kind of nonsense offends parts of the Smash community. Like the existence of any game but <insert favorite here>, for instance.

Besides, I'm sure some particularly vocal people would just love to complain that resources for their kind of tournament are being spent on that other ruleset. And I bet, with the relative difficulty of having a customs-ready setup, that customs would draw most of the ire and, perhaps, have an even harder time than singles/doubles to get enough setups (depending on your tournament, one I went to a while back struggled to get enough setups to run Smash4 at all).

^^^^^^^^This post makes me sad for the smash community. Are we really this petty?

 

[Raijinken]

^^^^^^^^This post makes me sad for the smash community. Are we really this petty?

Not everyone, no.

But enough of each playerbase that it's not an unfair accusation. I think we're generally improving, but there's been some very immature hate between different parts of the community for a long time.

 

[jet56]

in short, would it be optimal to have two different setups? yes. is it going to happen? probably not.
im in that neutral where i could play both, and i don't have hate towards one or the other. as Raijinken called it earlier "shut up and play". if more people had this kind of attitude, and in my opinion, didn't let small things like rulesets and certain stage choices bother them, we would be much better off as a community. take melee for example. the community hasn't banned yoshi's island because of randall. or banned ice climbers because of their wobble. melee puts up with some BS, and they do just fine. why can't we learn to...i don't know, let the small things go? that's my philosophy on it. if their is going to be a BS custom, ok, but we can learn to deal with it. not to mention we get our stuff PATCHED unlike melee, so it wouldn't even be something we would have to deal with forever. i say, let's stop Bi#$%ing and just play. (again no offense to anyone here, but it really irks me that people can't learn to not be so uptight about tick tacky stuff)

 

[Raijinken]

in short, would it be optimal to have two different setups? yes. is it going to happen? probably not.
im in that neutral where i could play both, and i don't have hate towards one or the other. as Raijinken called it earlier "shut up and play". if more people had this kind of attitude, and in my opinion, didn't let small things like rulesets and certain stage choices bother them, we would be much better off as a community. take melee for example. the community hasn't banned yoshi's island because of randall. or banned ice climbers because of their wobble. melee puts up with some BS, and they do just fine. why can't we learn to...i don't know, let the small things go? that's my philosophy on it. if their is going to be a BS custom, ok, but we can learn to deal with it. not to mention we get our stuff PATCHED unlike melee, so it wouldn't even be something we would have to deal with forever. i say, let's stop Bi#$%ing and just play. (again no offense to anyone here, but it really irks me that people can't learn to not be so uptight about tick tacky stuff)

Melee's got the longevity to enforce its decisions on stock, time, stagelist, etc. It also doesn't get (official) balance patches. Nor does it really have options that are as potentially divisive as Smash 4's (also Randall is on a timer, not random, though why they don't ban Stadium is still beyond me). Aside from crew battles, there aren't really that many things for them to run alternate rulesets for (besides doubles obviously).

Smash4 has more to choose from, and thus more to argue over.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I have a 3DS and a wii u that are both completely set up, if the only barrier to having two events is the lack of customs setups (at least here I am, I can't travel) then I could fix that.

More to the point, honestly if we start doing both events side-by-side and a year passes, I could very well see one of the two metas taking over the other. By that point customs will have evolved as a meta in the way Smash 4 default has so far, and we'll be able to make a more informed decision on which one we want. We can't do that right now. There simply hasn't been enough time and as far as I know this is the only solution left

 

[Wintropy]

I reckon the "dual systems" concept has some merit to it, the issue is convincing people to adhere to it in the first place. Most people I know are hesitant to accept customs full-stop, which is why I'm hoping to try it out at locals to see how it works out.

The best way to nullify a person's concerns is to inform them. Education is the best weapon we have in that respect.

 

[jet56]

its not going to be an instant or even easy transition, and there is always going to be people who are stubborn about it. but i think in time, if we gently 'nudge' customs in competitive play we will do just fine. i just don't want people calling out others who are anti-custom or even just hesitant on it because of valid concerns (i was for a long time). i have met people on both sides who are trying to hard to convince the other why their point of view is right, without any thought on why the other person is so against the other side. perspective. and at my tourneys and other places, a common thing ive heard is that players feel that pro customs players are trying to "force it down their throat". not saying anyone here is at fault for doing that, but part of the reason we have such a rift is because people are trying too hard. be patient i say.

 

[Wintropy]

its not going to be an instant or even easy transition, and there is always going to be people who are stubborn about it. but i think in time, if we gently 'nudge' customs in competitive play we will do just fine. i just don't want people calling out others who are anti-custom or even just hesitant on it because of valid concerns (i was for a long time). i have met people on both sides who are trying to hard to convince the other why their point of view is right, without any thought on why the other person is so against the other side. perspective. and at my tourneys and other places, a common thing ive heard is that players feel that pro customs players are trying to "force it down their throat". not saying anyone here is at fault for doing that, but part of the reason we have such a rift is because people are trying too hard. be patient i say.

Definitely agreed, very well said.

It just disconcerts me when I'm told players don't want to play with customs because "I just don't like 'em". That's why I think the best thing to do is, as I say, to educate people - if it turns out that people still dislike customs, then that's okay, at least we tried. The important thing is that we try, full-stop.

 

[DunnoBro]

I personally don't really care anymore, I make way more money way easier practicing for default. I don't think the game should be this easy but apparently people prefer it this way.

 

[Zorcey]

I personally don't really care anymore, I make way more money way easier practicing for default. I don't think the game should be this easy but apparently people prefer it this way.

Dude, you're making me sad.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I will speak for myself that, when someone tells me they don't want customs, I ask them "why".
More often than not, I get an answer along the lines of "because I don't own them all" or "I can't practice them", and so I offer my help to facilitate the movesets of the CMP I have on my 3DS, and even sit and practice. This has supported Customs in my community a lot.

If the answer is "I don't like them" I present some evidence, but the sentiment can't really be changed. They seem a bit more accessible to adapt, but they will likely won't choose any Custom set.

 

[Raijinken]

its not going to be an instant or even easy transition, and there is always going to be people who are stubborn about it. but i think in time, if we gently 'nudge' customs in competitive play we will do just fine. i just don't want people calling out others who are anti-custom or even just hesitant on it because of valid concerns (i was for a long time). i have met people on both sides who are trying to hard to convince the other why their point of view is right, without any thought on why the other person is so against the other side. perspective. and at my tourneys and other places, a common thing ive heard is that players feel that pro customs players are trying to "force it down their throat". not saying anyone here is at fault for doing that, but part of the reason we have such a rift is because people are trying too hard. be patient i say.

Part of that, I suppose, is that there isn't really a valid transitional phase for this pill. You either swallow it, or you spit it out, or you never take it at all.

If, for instance, pro-customs players were insisting that all players should be required to use custom moves (and/or the option negated the ability to use default specials), I could far better understand that mentality. I would even agree, it'd be really irritating to be forced into a playstyle you dislike.

But that's not the case. No one is trying to force other people to use customs. I, from a general stance, could care less if my opponent would rather play the character form they've practiced most and are most comfortable with, even when I and many others think a generally, or at least situationally, superior option exists. It's the opposite, though. Customs Off removes that choice and ability to play your character as you want. It removes that level of personal flavor and optimal theorycraft, and replaces it with... familiarity.

There's just a general divide in perception in that regard. If having to play against customs is "forcing it down their throat," then yes, I guess many of us are doing so. But it's hard to concede to the alternate when everything I've seen suggests that once it's dropped, it's going to stay dropped (by which I mean, I see that happening now, and sincerely hope for but don't expect a Customs Comeback).

Definitely agreed, very well said.

It just disconcerts me when I'm told players don't want to play with customs because "I just don't like 'em". That's why I think the best thing to do is, as I say, to educate people - if it turns out that people still dislike customs, then that's okay, at least we tried. The important thing is that we try, full-stop.

Pretty much this. Of course we've had this discussion and read it before, but practice-ability and taste shouldn't really factor into a ruleset consideration, and yet, they are.

I've essentially gotten my entire friendbase to go from either anti-custom or neutral to neutral or pro-custom by prolonged exposure. I could be wrong (and it could have to do with my entire circle having mains/secondaries: , many of whom benefit very nicely from customs), but I'm inclined to believe that most players would not be so anti-customs if they would play with and against them and lab them properly, instead of setting their sights on Jank and pursuing that goal with all intent.

 

[jet56]

lack of availability is a prime reason people don't like customs. even if it can be readily available at tourneys, home practice is very difficult. i only just got the entire custom moveset for the 3ds (smash run with friends made this ordeal much easier), so it is understandable to play with something you don't have experience with. im also curious, how does benefit from customs? or are those one of the few in your list who don't?

 

[Raijinken]

lack of availability is a prime reason people don't like customs. even if it can be readily available at tourneys, home practice is very difficult. i only just got the entire custom moveset for the 3ds (smash run with friends made this ordeal much easier), so it is understandable to play with something you don't have experience with. im also curious, how does benefit from customs? or are those one of the few in your list who don't?

Obviously the three DLCers don't. Mac's Flaming Lunge is a situationally passable recovery mixup, but given the negligible practicality of Straight Lunge, it's a useful option. Grounding Blow is alright as well, and Guard Breaker's super armor can make a handful of edge guards less effective. I also hear there are some benefits to picking other counters, but I've never really tested them very much.

They were included to indicate that even those of us who use characters who literally can't benefit from customs still support allowing them.

 

[Wintropy]

For better or for worse, my brother (who happens to be our local TO) mains Roy and finds customs to be better suited for "casual play", so he's quite firmly against customs. Furthermore, he reckons that, as a subset of the Irish Smash scene (which is on the whole very hesitant to consider customs), it'd be a waste of time to practice with a ruleset that nationals don't even use; he's mentioned that most other members of the local community feel the same way, so my work's really gonna be cut of for me when it comes to convincing people it's worth examination.

I've convinced him that we will try experiment with customs on a trial basis in order to discern the opinion of the community, so that's a step in a relatively progressive direction. I cite this anecdote because it's a good example of how, as mentioned previously, the customs debate is seldom a case of "pro-customs" vs "anti-customs": it's a matter of education and information. While I don't necessarily expect the project to bear fruit anytime in the near future, I think it's important that we at least experiment with it and reach an informed opinion, rather than just maintain that the customs debate is objectively unwarranted. As a TO, I told him, it's his responsibility - his duty, even - to discern what the community decides is best and structure the ruleset based on that. Grassroots activism can really help get the word out there. The official representative of the public should be impartial to this kind of debate and work with what's in the best interest of the community, however that may turn out.

 

[Steelballray]

I find it amazing that you guys are still fighting an almost lost cause. If pro-customs were winning I would have stopped arguing, maybe even started practising with them already or dropped Sm4sh for good.
Even disregarding the existence of "janky" customs, I still can't see them to be that good of a thing anyways. There are 55 characters that get patched and changed regularly, and there will soon be a couple more added to the game. It's not that easy to adapt to all of that. It's not as bad as you make it out to be for people to want simpler things. I know this ain't melee or brawl and that it's different than the rest, but people have always envisioned Smash as that straight up game where you go and kick the opponents ass out of the stage. Its more than normal for people to want it to remain the same. There are million of people playing LoL and Dota so you have to admit that people don't generally hate complexity blindly. They just think it's bad when it's related to Smash, their beloved simple game.
There is also the fact that Customs are heavily associated with equipments which is just enough proof for most people that theyre meant for causal play. It's just too hard to change people's first impressions, since most of the time first impressions are pretty much the last impressions.

Only thing that I think could have changed people's opinions of them is that if all characters had about equally good customs. But you see many characters with utterly useless customs and DLC characters having none and there you have the final nail on the coffin.

 

[Dr. Bread]

i got the impression that a lot of people going to tournaments didn't like playing against customs, and a lot of them do seem pretty... janky.

some of them are pretty regular though... i dont think even the biggest customs-hater will slam Wizard's drop-kick.

honestly the question shouldn't be whether customs are OK, but rather if they are better. do they enrich gameplay? The typical arguement is that it improves character diversity, which it does do to an extent. Kirby, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, and palutena among others are commonplace in customs tournaments. Villager is also more common in customs tournaments but villager is already a highly ranked character.

I'd rather a select few customs be allowed rather than all customs or no customs, but it would probably make more sense just to run tournaments without them. i wouldn't compare it to playing with items, but they definitely seemed to be an afterthought in character design. I'd be pretty shocked if i ever saw customs get patched, and the dlc characters dont even have them.

Its pretty surprising that they were allowed in evo to begin with honestly.