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Official SWF Tier List v8

Blacknight99923

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now QACing is punished so damn easily.....


First off pikachu aerials are absolutely devestating. they deal so much damage (excluding uair) and they combo into things very well.
Pikachu has IMO the best recovery in the game. plus his quick attack can combo into aerials.
Pikachu's mobility is pretty good although there is better
Pikachu's smashes deal a lot of damage and are good combo finishers and great great at edgeguarding (like forward smash and up smash)
Pika has the only even MU with MK
don't believe anything i said? watch ESAM on youtube
We're gonna talk about character positives with absolutely no comparison to other characters? I can do that! Falco #2 plz

First off Snakes Aerials are absolutely devastating, they do 20 damage a hit and all kill. None of them are to my knowledge slower than frame 6.
Snake can recover from nearly anywhere
Snake has a lot of mobility with his dacus, which lets him cross the stage extremely quickly. Even outside of this however he has strong stage control with his tilts, dash attack, and explosives and massive rewards.
Snakes smash attacks do lots of damage, but he doesn't need to use them once to win a match.
Snake has the only even MU with MK
don't believe anything i said? Watch ally on youtube
I can do this with any high tier

First off falcos aerials are absolutely amazing except his fair, they combine really well with his fast fall to give falco a multitude of frame traps and combo ability, they're all fast and all do a bit of damage.
Falco can recover to the stage faster than almost any character in the game.
Falcos mobility on the whole is amazing, he has his side b, fast walk, fast and high jumps.
Falco's dsmash makes a great punish oos when someone leaves lag near your shield dealing 15 damage on a frame 6 move, additionally his fsmash gives great punishes on reads.
Top level falcos have had one of the longest running consistent record of beating top level MKs such as DEHF or Masha.
don't believe what I said? Watch dehf or masha.





I'm sure you'll notice almost right away, that I excluded to mention any of the weaknesses of either of these characters.

I'm not going to claim I'm a complete expert on pikachu, but I believe these are generally widely held opinions,on pikachu. If someone has a different view I'd like to hear it.


Pikachu
- The majority of his moves typically have short range or a lack of disjoint, while there are exceptions such as fsmash or hell even thunder, these moves typically have a long start up time. Typically vs most good characters, Pikachu is often forced into taking defensive actions in the neutral situation, or giving up stage.
-Pikachu's most commonly used projectile, thunderjolt, has a large amount of end lag.
-Pikachu has a short grab range
-Pikachu's shield is small, and is relatively easy to pressure (characters like peach for example exploit this)
-Pikachu, has difficulties with many high tier characters such as ice climbers,olimar, and diddy kong. I also am under the impression he struggles with many other characters such as lucario and peach.



Its really difficult in my opinion to argue one character is better than another by only considering their relative strengths. Almost all good characters have some really nice things going for them.






I also have no idea how you could possibly justify that someone other than metaknight has the best recovery in the game.
 

Blacknight99923

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WAT

Congratulations, your post just warranted the biggest and most genuine 'wat' anyone has ever given in the history of ****ing everything.
I could go into detail but I don't want to. I'll just let you know that only 1 aerial is not slower than frame 6 and only 2 of them do 20 or more.

2013, the magical land where Snake fair comes out in 6 frames or less.
I forgot fair existed.

if you average them all together they do 19.6 damage

its
28 dair
14 uair
14 bair
14 fair (I just did this on the comp, it wasn't the spike hitbox but I'm pretty sure the damage is the same)
28 nair
=98/
/5=19.6



Although typically not all of the hits of nair or dair will even connect, so its erroneous to really his aerials will do 20 damage on average anyway.
 

infiniteV115

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...
On average, using max damage for both nair and dair, his LESS than 20.
Then you take into account that you usually don't hit with all 4 hits of nair and dair.

That makes it even further away from 20 lol (on the lower side obv)

Also dair and nair do 29, not 28. It's actually 29.something, cause sometimes it looks like they do 30 due to decimal values
 

Blacknight99923

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...
On average, using max damage for both nair and dair, his LESS than 20.
Then you take into account that you usually don't hit with all 4 hits of nair and dair.

That makes it even further away from 20 lol (on the lower side obv)

Also dair and nair do 29, not 28. It's actually 29.something, cause sometimes it looks like they do 30 due to decimal values


Well before I posted I did aerials on a computer and copied them down and they did 28 damage, and in training mode. I just double checked, and they do 28, and as far as I know there aren't any hacks on my wii. Are you sure its 29 damage?



edit: the spike fair hitbox does 15 damage, I learn something knew everyday
 

infiniteV115

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Moves do less in training mode iirc. In actual multiplayer mode, fresh moves have a 1.05 multiplier on the damage, so that's probably why they do 29 in game
And I believe after being used once (ie 1x stale), the multiplier goes down to exactly 1
 

Blacknight99923

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Moves do less in training mode iirc. In actual multiplayer mode, fresh moves have a 1.05 multiplier on the damage, so that's probably why they do 29 in game
And I believe after being used once (ie 1x stale), the multiplier goes down to exactly 1
huh what do you know. I just tested it and you're right.

So I guess this brings the average up to 20 (ignoring spike fairhitbox).
 

Bobwithlobsters

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...what a dumb game
Hey now, you can't complain. Just cause jigglypuff recovers just as well in training mode as in normal modes doesn't mean you get to hate on the game.

Quit playing a broken SSSSSS+ tier character and then you can come down here and complain about things like mk, tripping, and even strange move stale move rates in training mode.
 

Shaya

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Imagine if every character could flatten their bodies like Snake's back air.
Imagine if they didn't have to put any lag into doing so.

Imagine if they could do it in the air AND on the ground.
Imagine.
 

Dekillsage

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There's no peace to be found, anywhere.
So can snake do some kind of crazy tech chase with fair out of down throw on bad roll characters like ddd? Or do you feel that there is really no good use for snake's fair?
Snake's fair has purpose but out of dthrow umm... It might be fast enough to work. I never go for it because the risk-reward isn't worth it.

You use fair on people who have limited recovery options like Dk and DDD. Then there's mu specific uses like vs toonlink you can do fair if you think he's gonna throw a boomerang and spike him for it. You can punish lucario or marth getting back on stage with fair if they use their up b's also probably.(I don't remember)

You can also yolo and do nade pick up, jump zdrop yolo fair and pick up the nade with fair I suppose.

It's just a matter of deciding if the risk-reward is worth it for me, unless I'm fighting ddd or something lol.

^
 

FourStar

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We're gonna talk about character positives with absolutely no comparison to other characters? I can do that! Falco #2 plz

First off Snakes Aerials are absolutely devastating, they do 20 damage a hit and all kill. None of them are to my knowledge slower than frame 6.
Snake can recover from nearly anywhere
Snake has a lot of mobility with his dacus, which lets him cross the stage extremely quickly. Even outside of this however he has strong stage control with his tilts, dash attack, and explosives and massive rewards.
Snakes smash attacks do lots of damage, but he doesn't need to use them once to win a match.
Snake has the only even MU with MK
don't believe anything i said? Watch ally on youtube
I can do this with any high tier

First off falcos aerials are absolutely amazing except his fair, they combine really well with his fast fall to give falco a multitude of frame traps and combo ability, they're all fast and all do a bit of damage.
Falco can recover to the stage faster than almost any character in the game.
Falcos mobility on the whole is amazing, he has his side b, fast walk, fast and high jumps.
Falco's dsmash makes a great punish oos when someone leaves lag near your shield dealing 15 damage on a frame 6 move, additionally his fsmash gives great punishes on reads.
Top level falcos have had one of the longest running consistent record of beating top level MKs such as DEHF or Masha.
don't believe what I said? Watch dehf or masha.





I'm sure you'll notice almost right away, that I excluded to mention any of the weaknesses of either of these characters.

I'm not going to claim I'm a complete expert on pikachu, but I believe these are generally widely held opinions,on pikachu. If someone has a different view I'd like to hear it.


Pikachu
- The majority of his moves typically have short range or a lack of disjoint, while there are exceptions such as fsmash or hell even thunder, these moves typically have a long start up time. Typically vs most good characters, Pikachu is often forced into taking defensive actions in the neutral situation, or giving up stage.
-Pikachu's most commonly used projectile, thunderjolt, has a large amount of end lag.
-Pikachu has a short grab range
-Pikachu's shield is small, and is relatively easy to pressure (characters like peach for example exploit this)
-Pikachu, has difficulties with many high tier characters such as ice climbers,olimar, and diddy kong. I also am under the impression he struggles with many other characters such as lucario and peach.



Its really difficult in my opinion to argue one character is better than another by only considering their relative strengths. Almost all good characters have some really nice things going for them.






I also have no idea how you could possibly justify that someone other than metaknight has the best recovery in the game.
well considering i think falco and snake are better characters than pikachu i'm not gonna disagree with this statement at all. so basically you typed this up cuz you wanted to prove me wrong i guess? but yea i know pikachu has bad MU's and lacks long range attacks. but you just have to play smart. really it comes down to the player using pikachu. for the average person they have no clue how to use him and will get killed easily. but play smart and pikachu is absolute beast.
 

Blacknight99923

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well considering i think falco and snake are better characters than pikachu i'm not gonna disagree with this statement at all. so basically you typed this up cuz you wanted to prove me wrong i guess? but yea i know pikachu has bad MU's and lacks long range attacks. but you just have to play smart. really it comes down to the player using pikachu. for the average person they have no clue how to use him and will get killed easily. but play smart and pikachu is absolute beast.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I think pikachu is a very good character, but I want to see some thought provoking arguments out of you.
 

ぱみゅ

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Snake's fair has purpose but out of dthrow umm... It might be fast enough to work. I never go for it because the risk-reward isn't worth it.

You use fair on people who have limited recovery options like Dk and DDD. Then there's mu specific uses like vs toonlink you can do fair if you think he's gonna throw a boomerang and spike him for it. You can punish lucario or marth getting back on stage with fair if they use their up b's also probably.(I don't remember)

You can also yolo and do nade pick up, jump zdrop yolo fair and pick up the nade with fair I suppose.

It's just a matter of deciding if the risk-reward is worth it for me, unless I'm fighting ddd or something lol.
I don't know about DK, but any half-brained DDD should not get hit by Snake's Fair.
 

Luco

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Fourstar, BK said it perfectly - we're not deliberately saying pikachu is this or pikachu is that, it's more like playing devil's advocate to get you looking into frame data and hard evidence to construct your point - and at this early a stage (you've been around for about 3 months now, yup?) I can totally understand why you'd be hesitant to do so. :)

Basically saying 'you just have to play smart' applies to every character in the game. I could go ahead and say 'the ICs are better than MK, you just have to know how to play as them.' And while at a super theoretical ridiculous level that's probably somewhat true, it doesn't reflect the current meta game and there's near to no evidence backing it up. Result? No one considers ICs to be above MK in any way, or even in his tier lol. I could even pull up a video of Mekos vs. Gluttony or PF vs. Logic and say 'well they were playing smart, this is the example' but then there's factors influencing THAT, like how the players are, stress, a mess up or several, knowledge of the meta, any gigantic number of things.

Basically to say 'Pikachu is a fantastic character' we need more than just the age old statement of 'everyone just plays him bad'. People get around this issue different ways. Dark Peach for example prefers to use frame data, whereas Gheb puts a very heavy emphasis on results. There's many different ways to go about proving your point. :)

So what i'll do is, construct a small argument in opposition to your one to give you an idea of what you could do. Feel free to respond or leave as is. If you want my before-hand opinion, I personally think Pika's about fine where he is. If he does great then sure I don't mind where he goes. Otherwise he's reasonably stable-ish. So without further ado, i'll try this and I suggest that if you respond, dig up some matches, find flaws in my argument, look up frame data or whatever suits you. And if you're not up to it, that's totally fine, we all eventually learnt the ropes at one stage or another and even I have trouble constructing good arguments a lot of the time. In fact, this argument will have its holes (some are deliberate!) so feel free to look for them! ^^

------- START ARGUMENT -------

In Pikachu's case specifically, ESAM hasn't been doing as well with him in the current meta and he uses ICs as his primary focus now. This leaves very few other Pikachu players around to rep him and show people he is worthy of where he is - I should point out that America seems to be the only place he does well because in Japan he is mid tier, though I confess myself that I haven't actively gone and searched matches to see how he's doing over there. He doesn't get a lot of rep in other countries either - I can't think of a notable European pika main or a notable pika main from any other main region either.

Now that we've established this, we have to look at results. And as I touched upon, Pikachu seriously needs a reviver on this one. He's currently at 'wario' status IMO - that is, he's theoretically a good character and he's done stuff but recently it's dropped off a bit and we need to see more. Won't speak too much more on this though as there's not too much else to say.

In terms of theoretics and frame data, this is where everyone likes to say 'oh my character just needs to be used this way'. But the reality is it doesn't quite happen as regularly as we'd like to. Players make mistakes. Even top players (i'd like to quote the famous MM between 'captain america' DDD - oh goodness was it Seibrik or someone else? - against Gluttony). Pikachu's weaknesses of disjoint but short range, shield, grabs and other such cripple him in some match-ups such as the Olimar MU where Olimar can laugh at his attempts to camp and can hold his own very effectively.

So in all, Pikachu suffers from certain weaknesses that prevent him from going up particularly. If he gets the results to back his position up or certain techniques and strategies become known to the community that allow him to bypass these weaknesses in certain instances then yea, he certainly has a chance of going up. But until that point we have little to go on save for Pikachu players' good faith that he will show us the money. So where are the goods?

------ END ARGUMENT ------

So obviously there's some stuff wrong with this argument and it's fine to point that out. For instance, the DDD I refer to in the money match was actually Atomsk and you could have asked the 'me' making that argument to get his facts straight and research more before presenting that as hard evidence. It's not like I actually said the outcome of that match either (though as it happens I know Gluttony ended up winning that).

And videos is a fine example to point out. You ought to ask me for the actual links to videos to confirm what i'm saying. Some of the most convoluted stuff gets said on here because people go from memory (which by itself is actually ok if you actually say you're going by memory first!) so don't always take what everyone's saying at face value if you're unsure on their point unless they can bring up evidence... and videos are great pieces of evidence to use.

Now with all that said, remember to introduce your own points - an argument that only says how the other person is doing their argument all wrong is rarely effective. Bring up counter points, raise up videos of your own, look into match-ups, etc etc.

Then all you need to worry about is structuring it correctly but here on an internet forum, we're not going to mind if you don't get that quite right the first time. :p

And you've been here long enough to know the rest - you'll get used to specific and good examples to use in your arguments and such.

So with all that, I hope you take something from this and i'd love to see what you have to offer within the foresee-able future! :)




Gosh, I wasn't originally expecting to write a random practice argument when I started this! :p

I'm off to bed peeps. Feel free to suggest stuff I left out or did badly. Anywayyyyyy....

And Shaya, Lucas/Ness are said to be good at edge-guarding (it's meant to be the major reason why the marth MU is a -3 and not a -4 and why they're said to be able to harass MK offstage, etc), I was super sad that you left them out. :'(

Or you just decided that they couldn't edge-guard that well, which may be valid - I dunno, i'm pretty bad at it for some reason. :-/
 

Dark.Pch

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Oh good god. I'm sorry. I can't do this. I can't just sit here and let so much garbage and false info just be spread around here. The things involving Peach put me in tears. The the general topics here are just.......what? I'm just gonna start with this:

Peach is better than sonic. Get over it espy. Apex 2012, one of the hardest tournaments. 2 Peach players made it into bracket. While only one did. And it was not you. And the sonic that did lost and got outplaced by a Peach. Speed does not mean anything. All that speed just to be shut down by snake. You can't even get in snake with a solid wall he puts out. This is one of the major reasons malcom quit sonic and went wario. He got sick of it.

Peach is one of the best edgeguarders in the game. Shaya just cause you and alot of people don't fight one that can edgeguard extremely well, does not mean she can't do it period. Alot of people including myself. I'm not even gonna break down how. Just be another book report and to easy of a battle for me to win against typical mentality of a smasher with this game. You can easliy check out my Peach guide for that.


DDD is a trash charater that people just let him get away with stuff for free. DDD has 2 major things. A bair that is seriously over rated and a chain grab. People fight DDD like its a regular character. Which is the wrong way. (Same goes for IC) If people start fighting him in a way to shut down Bair and the chain grab, he has NOTHING going for himself. Slow, easlily pressured, No good out of shield options

"LOLOLOLOL Uptilt out of shied"


Hahahahahahahahaha! No......7 frame shield drop + w/e frame that move hits on. Good pressure, DDD can't do that. He will get punished. He is a character that has to take it very slow. And people tend to not realize this. Then he gets free chain grabs, throws them off stage and goes for his Bair assult for a stock or massive damage before you touch the floor. Bair is overrated to begin with. I can freaking wavedash out of my shield to DDD when I block one bair and then PS the other and punish him for it. And based on the community. I play a bad character, A Bad character can do **** like this?

Games like street fighter where they have grabbers, people don't fight them like regular characters. They fight them in a way to avoid the grabs and zone them out. That's how you deal with grab happy characters. Learn this for DDD. It's 2013 stop being so lazy. This is why I don't think DDD is even Vs snake like alot of others think. The main reason I see DDD get grabs on snake is cause of tilts. He blocks it, free grabs. All this fool is gonna do much of the time is go in with shield. That's all he can do. Oh wait. His Ftilt. Which people. Can react too. A solid wall from snake is giving DDD problems. Snake should just pull the Peach effect on him. Space a dtilt on him and stop right there. Let the fool try and wiff a grab. If not, DDD is stuck. He will be draining his shield. Better for the enemy. he drops his shield, what will DDD do? He can't do anything at this position in front of snake. He has nothing. What, the basic side step, roll factor when you can't think or anything else on reaction? DDD is not scary at all when you are out of his reach for a grab. And if you have him in a corner, its even worst. Space your moves well, and he can't do anything. You are safe. DDD is bad.

People just do **** and depend on luck to win instead of abusing fundamentals of a fighting game. And they get away with this "luck" nonsense cause people are too lazy.
 

Espy Rose

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Sonic is better than Peach.
BBR just doesn't particularly care about the section of the tier list the two characters are settled in. Same reason why you don't see much TLC for low tier. There's far more important things to be dealing with on the list.:applejack:
 

Dark.Pch

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I was wondering when you was gonna show up. I actually been dieing to tear you apart on this matter for a long time. Sonic is better cause you say so? That's all you ever do and don't back up nothing. Tell me why he is better.

Also thanks for proving my point for a long time with your last statement. You just help me prove how full of crap the BBR is.
 

Dekillsage

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There's no peace to be found, anywhere.
I don't know about DK, but any half-brained DDD should not get hit by Snake's Fair.
You can fair ddd after he's used a certain number of jumps. At that point even if you get faird for trying to fair you get a punish because he's forced to up b(this depends on the % snake is at though)

Also Shaya mentioned another way to land fair. It's not that hard vs DDD, and the risk-reward is in our favor by a lot
 

Jabejazz

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It's like you're my cosmic twin or some ****.

Minus the MLP interest. I can deal with it.
 

ぱみゅ

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*Grabs dedede at the ledge during his up b while he has no jumps*
*air release*
*time a fair*
That statement is like saying "Grab Snake Out of Cypher, he's death".
While it's true, no good player should be recoverying in such way to allow that kind of stuff happen to them.
it's not like I haven't seen a Snake grabbed OOC, or a DDD grabbed out of his Up-B, but that just should not happen.

Nothing but MK or Thunder should be a problem for DDD offstage.
It's easier to just wait for him to land with his painful-to-watch laggy Up-B
 

Dekillsage

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That statement is like saying "Grab Snake Out of Cypher, he's death".
While it's true, no good player should be recoverying in such way to allow that kind of stuff happen to them.
it's not like I haven't seen a Snake grabbed OOC, or a DDD grabbed out of his Up-B, but that just should not happen.

Nothing but MK or Thunder should be a problem for DDD offstage.
It's easier to just wait for him to land with his painful-to-watch laggy Up-B
You do understand that DDD's jumps get worse with every jump he does? He he's not over the ledge and is past his third jump he has no way to reach the ledge and is forced to up b.

You can hit ddd as he's jumping back on and remove his good jumps so he's stuck with bad ones. From there you punish his Up-B.

DDD getting grabbed out of up-b doesn't happen often, sure. I can still hit him out of his recovery.
 

SoulPech

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Welcome to Internet Forums.
Dark Pch tries to sound intelligent when he actually isn't IMO. Throwing up walls of text doesn't make you intelligent. Also sounding condescending doesn't help :/. As soon as I read "Oh good god. I'm sorry. I can't do this. I can't just sit here and let so much garbage and false info just be spread around here.", I stopped.
Also,

Sonic > Peach. Easy concept to grasp.
 

Cassio

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I think Sonic is probably better than peach, and its a character Im pretty familiar with out here. Also no one is saying peach sucks, and while she does have some pretty strong tools in comparison to Sonic she just seems more limited as a character.

Im also not sure why you brought up snake, from what I remember Sonics do pretty well against snake compared to peach.
 

ぱみゅ

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@Dekillsage: You're underrating DDD's recovery waaaay too much, even though he has a bunch of jumps, any DDD should be smart with them as if he only had two or three. Again, a smart DDD should not really have problem when offstage.
He even has the option of do the invincible (no non-SA frames) Up-B.
 

Luco

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Gosh I feel silly reading my post before - it's such a 'late night Luco' post where i'm trying to hit the nail on the head with my eyes closed. :<
 

Bobwithlobsters

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You heard it here first boys and girls, ddd's bair is overrated and has no oos options. Clearly all of his winning mu's with most everyone below him are clearly overrated.

on a more serious note, ddd is really kinda weak against safe shield spacing if your name is mk which is why he gets wrecked by him.

on the other side though using the example of punishing ddd's bair on shield is kinda silly as it is a zoning tool to keep you out. Not mk's or marth's aerials that can be easily spaced on shields. Different moves different uses. Its like saying snakes ftilt is over rated cause it isn't safe on shield.
 

Z'zgashi

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DDD's bair for best move in game. After Jigg's Rest though of course.
 
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