Official SWF Tier List v8

[Delta-cod]

Are these GnW players you're playing good? I'm assuming they're not, because they're being gimped by Tjolt.

And even looking more closely at what you said, you said it's hard to edgeguard GnW and that you die in the process. How are you gonna say his recovery is bad if this is the case?

 

[Cassio]

Punishing GW's recovery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3gO6w_5eyo

keeping in mind GW still has options and its fairly strong, but I dont think its as strong as some people may think.

In my own opinion I dont really think recovering high is all that great since youre still left with the issue of landing onto the stage (youre not typically going to see MetaKnights gliding above stage to land as opposed to picking the ledge). I could understand that if your character has high mobility this might be a better option than being trapped on the ledge, BUT at the same time being on the ledge isnt really the woooorrst thing for MK, Pika, Pit, and some others either, at least that will return your jump to you. But in the end it kinda depends on the strengths of your character.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Uhh.
Wouldn't the game and watch get a free bucket charge off of t-jolts? And doesn't u-air only hit the opponent upwards unlike it's melee counterpart that spikes em?

Anywho.
Game and watches recovery is linear, but it's still hard as **** to deal with. The invincibility on his up-b basically guaranties he grabs the ledge. If i'm correct, his invincibility ends 2 frames before he can ledge snap, meaning you have like 2 frames to actually punish em.

Punishing GW's recovery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3gO6w_5eyo

EDIT: CASSIO HOW COULD YOU **** BLOCK ME LIKE THAAAT! ;~;
*sniff*
I was gonna be the one to sound smart and talk about punishing his recoverrrrry. :<

 

[Shaya]

G&W's aerial mobility and velocity rate combination is obnoxious.
Easy means of turning himself around off stage laglessly (bucket) couple with like the most disjointed aerial in the game (bair).Fair is also good in the frontal position.

It's because G&W can move backwards and forwards so quickly off stage that he can be all "try to get past my disjoint *****" and then Up-B appropriately. He basically SHOULDN'T be getting hit off stage.

It's his Up-B's properties that take "really good longevity off stage" into "well see ya later cowboy". whenever he chooses.
The only linear part of G&W's recovery is the 20 frames after he up-bs. Everything before is freedom. Everything after is freedom against a majority of the cast. Free ledge snaps help.
Being able to not be in free fall after Up-B coupled with his momentum is so ****ing good you have no idea.

Having the option to recover HIGH and LOW in nearly any situation you're hit off stage makes your recovery options significantly better than EVERYONE ELSE.

Guess who else can recover high and low?
MK, Pit, Wario.

Guess which of those characters recovers from high and low as safely as G&W does?
MK only.
Meta Knight only. Pit and Wario are vulnerable recovering low. Pikachu can't recover high. Jigglypuff can recover well high or low but is vulnerable.
I think ROB is a good example of a character who can recover high and low and is only vulnerable to a very small selection of the cast, but has no longevity off stage, meaning a ticking time bomb that people can abuse.

 

[Cassio]

I think this conversation would be helped if we actually determined who the character's recovery's are fighting against. What list of characters (and perhaps order) would be considered good at edge guarding characters with good recoveries?

lol, sorry sunnysunny

 

[FourStar]

Are these GnW players you're playing good? I'm assuming they're not, because they're being gimped by Tjolt.

And even looking more closely at what you said, you said it's hard to edgeguard GnW and that you die in the process. How are you gonna say his recovery is bad if this is the case?

becuz sometimes i mess up and usually becuz i'm taking chance to finish off GnW. but usually i pull off the gimp and quick attack back to theledge. and i haven't played any superb GnW's and when i find a tough one usually i pull it together and beat them but no big names yet.

 

[Shaya]

****ing you up off-stage tier list:

Top Tier
Meta Knight >= Marth

High Tier (some order)
Donkey Kong
Dedede
Wario
G&W

Mid tier (DOES THAT **** FROM ON STAGE / is kinda alright)
Pikachu
Zero Suit
Snake
Diddy Kong
Sonic
ROB
Pit
Kirby

Special Mention:
Peach badassery.

**** Tier:
Everyone else

 

[Delta-cod]

Hey man, Yoshi is kinda alright at edgeguarding.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I really don't know why a lot of GnWes don't recover high more and abuse the Parachute.
Seriously, GnW's High Recovery is like a safer version of Snake's, OR a Glide where you're not locked into GA. It's amazing and people should use it more.
Low recovery being easy and ridiculously safe helps too, but high is not a bad option either.

 

[Shaya]

@Delta
Mm, yeah, probably. LIke the more I think about "can **** you up WHILE ON STAGE" (ZSS and Snake being the best examples) the more I'm like "well that's changing things".

Donkey Kong, Marth and MK. If you don't fear them chasing you off stage as ANY character, you're probably playing baddies. A lot of other characters are scary but tend to not go for it.

@kyokoro
Too many options in this game. Everyone uses the most common ones as gospel. Oh well.

 

[Dekillsage]

I really don't know why a lot of GnWes don't recover high more and abuse the Parachute.
Seriously, GnW's High Recovery is like a safer version of Snake's, OR a Glide where you're not locked into GA. It's amazing and people should use it more.
Low recovery being easy and ridiculously safe helps too, but high is not a bad option either.

Every time a game and watch player tried this vs me I uair'd him for it and killed him at 80%.

 

[Shaya]

Every time a game and watch player tried this vs me I uair'd him for it and killed him at 80%.

If you're referring to a G&W getting hit to an upper corner and immediately up-bing and drifting towards the stage from the upper blast zone or something....
MEH.

 

[Cassio]

lol, Shaya I really think Donkey Kong and to some extent DDD are more a marth problem. Not that they dont have tools but I never really considered them THAT good. Other character mains please confirm/deny.

With DDD I think he does own characters with bad/mediocre recoveries. But thinking of MK, pika, GW, and prolly Jiggs and Wario I dont think hes gonna be doing too much damage offstage

 

[FourStar]

lol, Shaya I really think Donkey Kong and to some extent DDD are more a marth problem. Not that they dont have tools but I never really considered them THAT good. Other character mains please confirm/deny.

With DDD I think he does own characters with bad/mediocre recoveries. But thinking of MK, pika, GW, and prolly Jiggs and Wario I dont think hes gonna be doing too much damage offstage

see i wish people thought about things the way you do. you are so level headed about everything idk howw you do it bro LOL

 

[Sunnysunny]

****ing you up off-stage tier list:

No Lucario? :<

 

[Shaya]

lol, Shaya I really think Donkey Kong and to some extent DDD are more a marth problem. Not that they dont have tools but I never really considered them THAT good. Other character mains please confirm/deny.

With DDD I think he does own characters with bad/mediocre recoveries. But thinking of MK, pika, GW, and prolly Jiggs and Wario I dont think hes gonna be doing too much damage offstage

MK, Marth, Dedede and DK are the characters best suited for throwing out aerials that are safe to them while potentially ****ing you out of your jump. Nearly every character in the game can recover as long as they have their second jump.
DK can't chase you low but is able to chase you all the way to the blast zone. Marth and MK can also do this. No one has the mobility, recovery and aerial combinations to pull it off consistently than those three characters. Dedede will always try to stuff you up off stage (it's his best zone scenario in the game) but isn't chasing people to their deaths while laughing it off.

Characters like Falco would be EXCELLENT off stage if they didn't have to die trying to kill you or not getting a second chance after one attempt. His bair, fast fall and jump heights are good enough to **** EVERYONE's recoveries up. But he can't chase low, and he can't make mistakes. DK has bair/uair and a ******** backwards hit of Up-b hitbox and auto cancelling on stage from many displacements off stage. He along with marth and MK are very efficient at getting to the ledge before you do as well.

I define things as such:
Being able to chase you off stage.
Being able to do so and be able to recover.
Being able to do the above two and be able to grab the ledge before your opponent can.

Being able to achieve all 3 of those things means you chase people off stage. Being significantly better than your opponent means you do this with EVERY character against baddies. Dedede can chase you off stage, but he can't teleport to the blast zone, swing with something that completely restricts recover pathing/options, and then get back to the ledge safely/quickly. Marth/MK/DK go off stage, throw out a hitbox to perturb your ability to recover and then grab the ledge before you do. Win.
Win.
Win.
Win
Win
Win.

 

[Dekillsage]

If you're referring to a G&W getting hit to an upper corner and immediately up-bing and drifting towards the stage from the upper blast zone or something....
MEH.

Nope.

 

[Shaya]

Nope.

You're too good at this game

 

[Cassio]

MK, Marth, Dedede and DK are the characters best suited for throwing out aerials that are safe to them while potentially ****ing you out of your jump. Nearly every character in the game can recover as long as they have their second jump.
DK can't chase you low but is able to chase you all the way to the blast zone. Marth and MK can also do this. No one has the mobility, recovery and aerial combinations to pull it off consistently than those three characters. Dedede will always try to stuff you up off stage (it's his best zone scenario in the game) but isn't chasing people to their deaths while laughing it off.

Characters like Falco would be EXCELLENT off stage if they didn't have to die trying to kill you or not getting a second chance after one attempt. His bair, fast fall and jump heights are good enough to **** EVERYONE's recoveries up. But he can't chase low, and he can't make mistakes. DK has bair/uair and a ******** backwards hit of Up-b hitbox and auto cancelling on stage from many displacements off stage. He along with marth and MK are very efficient at getting to the ledge before you do as well.

I define things as such:
Being able to chase you off stage.
Being able to do so and be able to recover.
Being able to do the above two and be able to grab the ledge before your opponent can.

Being able to achieve all 3 of those things means you chase people off stage. Being significantly better than your opponent means you do this with EVERY character against baddies. Dedede can chase you off stage, but he can't teleport to the blast zone, swing with something that completely restricts recover pathing/options, and then get back to the ledge safely/quickly. Marth/MK/DK go off stage, throw out a hitbox to perturb your ability to recover and then grab the ledge before you do. Win.
Win.
Win.
Win
Win
Win.

Blah, I think we have different standards for what it means to be good at edgeguarding. I dont see anything wrong with that criteria, but I prefer rating things from a more pragmatic as opposed to objective perspective. More importantly, Im not sure if youre referring to dealing damage or landing early kills, cause while I do agree that every character will likely be able to recover from a double jump, a significant portion of the cast will lose an eye and a leg doing so. I can definitely see DK as being among the best at landing early kills and gimps on characters offstage, if he catches you with a backair or misspaced jump at a decent distance offstage then gg. But as far as dealing damage consistently it wouldnt take much more than a decent low recovery or projectile to avoid most of the time.

Using this separate perspective and taking characters like MK, Pika, GW, Wario, Jiggs (give or take some characters) into account the worry isnt getting gimped but minimizing the amounts damage theyll receive, and personally I would rate characters such as ROB, Lucario, Pit, etc. rather strongly. I dont think you have to travel too far offstage to be good at dealing damage offstage, but it can definitely help and is a criteria worth grading.

 

[Shaya]

People have standardised trajectories for recoveries. A lot of characters can abuse those. Some characters also have very safe positions on which once they get there, their recovery move is sufficient. My thoughts on proficiency is one in which a character can intercept and capitalise and recover from it. Having this quality means you can kill every character in the game off stage before they can even get their recoveries into safe positions.

These are the characters who, given the right conditions, can end the stocks of the character's with supposedly the best recoveries in the game.

In most other conditions, they get damage (maybe not killing them), they get to the ledge first, and then reset the scenario again by hitting them back off stage in their recovery lag.

There are few characters who have the mix up timing potential to achieve all of that with consistency, even if their movesets (projectiles) allow them to freely harass some recoveries.
It's pretty dope when you run off stage laser someone with Falco and then jump->up b and grab the ledge. Am I going to try that in tournament? PROBABLY NOT, LOL, maybe. Yeah, probably. But I'M BAD AND CHEESY when I play FALCO in tournament.
Nearly all other character's options are... in essence the same thing but with better leeways / trajectories. Lucario can run off and aurasphere and aerial you for trying to avoid that. So I'd probably put him actually quite high now I think about it (I started to remember Trela). But this is only one (that's large enough to disrupt) aurasphere with one trajectory.
Pit's spewing arrows but isn't taking stocks.
Pika can take stocks "for free" in certain scenarios, it's almost like that random chain grab/gay thing your character have on Fox. I don't think it challenges "good" recoveries as well as you'd like. Against some better recoveries you apply good damage.
Wario gets to chase people off and not give a **** because he has waft and jumps and bikes. I rate him very highly, but without waft, he's kinda relying on beating people to the ledge or a clutch fair or bair. And characters can hitbox through those things a lot of the time.
etc etc etc.

Fast Horizontal and/or Vertical movement. Fast Recovery Move. All encompassing, world destroying, tengen toppan attacks that can be placed in a lot of places in a lot of situations due to the aforementioned?
Pika is like... 1 and a half of those things (kinda tengen toppan hitboxes he can throw out, and being able to get back to the ledge first usually).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think people overrate JIggly's recover for one obvious reason.
Just because he can stay off stage FOREVER does not mean it isn't very harassable off stage or as he approaches the stage. The ability to recover high + with her aerial mobility obviously makes it better than a significant majority of the cast, but I still ain't feeling G-dubs level anywhere.

I largely agree, however it's worth noting that having the ability to avoid committing to the ledge or a landing option is a pretty big deal. At least IMO.

People get gimped by being caught out of their jumps and then being forced into other options. Jigglypuff does lack significantly in the "other options" department but has perhaps the best physics and jump count possible, and so I can't imagine Jigglypuff ever being gimped by anyone (insert the "except for MK clause" here). Maybe Marth, but tbh not even.

It might have helped if I had said:

Meta Knight
---BREAK---
Gdubs
Pikachu
---BREAK---
Wario
---BREAK---
Jigglypuff

Because that's how I feel. After Wario, recoveries get significantly worse.

It's possible that I'm wrong, but the whole thing started because I was trying to explain that I don't feel Pit's recovery is really all that. He has the glide and the jumps, but his hitbox is big and he's easy to harass, and of all the characters with glides he's easiest to force into up-b, and his up-b is the worst of all of them.

There are several other characters that I think recover more safely and with less harassment than Pit. There's more to recovery than distance covered. Pit might be able to make it back to the stage from almost anywhere but he has to worry a lot about... like, dying. Pikachu and Wario with his bike up and fart shouldn't really ever have to worry about getting gimped unless they make a mistake.

The same goes for other characters I haven't listed here, like ZSS, Sonic (perhaps not on the level of the other characters here but can still get the job done), ROB, Samus. Ice Climbers with both climbers out has a pretty broken recovery.

I wouldn't say Pit's recovery is bad, it's just ... like, maybe above average, like everything else about Pit.

 

[DeLux]

SFP, I am disappoint

Squall hammer is a lie

 

[Shaya]

Yo, if Mario can counter Ice Climber's recovery easily.
Than so should you.

 

[-LzR-]

ICs recovery is amazing until the opponent does something about it. Then it's garbage. ICs probably have the worst recovery of all toptiers.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

What about Olimar.

 

[DeLux]

Squall is a lie

Whistle is the truth

 

[-LzR-]

Olimars recovery is much better than ICs. Whistle gives Olimar so many options against several characters and Olimar is very floaty and has a decent second jump. With good DI and whistle Olimar should be coming back most of the time.
ICs are extremely vulnerable during their recovery. When using upB, just do any move to Popo. Nana will grab the ledge normally, but Popo gets hit, unable to do anything because Nana is grabbing the ledge.
With sideB you can just hit them once and at least one of them will enter freefall and die.

 

[NickRiddle]

agreed! it is so easy to read and is easily punished. this is where unpredictable ones like pikachu, MK, ZSS, and a few others excel in getting back to the stage

ZSS now excels at getting back to the stage.
New discoveries that I should be aware of, I guess.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS will get back

Whether or not she takes 50% damage in the process is a different story

 

[Espy Rose]

lol, Shaya I really think Donkey Kong and to some extent DDD are more a marth problem. Not that they dont have tools but I never really considered them THAT good. Other character mains please confirm/deny.

As a Sonic main, getting back onstage vs D3 and DK is kinda super easy.

 

[Shaya]

Maybe because when you're playing against DK and D3 you're never off stage in the first place.

 

[Espy Rose]

I actually go offstage a lot because I know I can get back on for free.

 

[FourStar]

ZSS now excels at getting back to the stage.
New discoveries that I should be aware of, I guess.

really? i thought u discovered most of the techniques and skills with ZSS. right?

 

[Shaya]

I actually go offstage a lot because I know I can get back on for free.

I love you espy.

 

[Espy Rose]

Nothing shatters a non-top player harder than showing them how easily you can deal with them in their character's most advantageous scenarios.

 

[Shaya]

Well, I honestly think Sonic's recovery is probably better than Jiggs and maybe Pikas, imo.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sonic has a good recovery, for sure. On paper it's pretty easy to punish but in reality it ends up being safe.

 

[Dekillsage]

You're too good at this game

I'm pretty freakin incredible

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Characters like Falco would be EXCELLENT off stage if they didn't have to die trying to kill you or not getting a second chance after one attempt. His bair, fast fall and jump heights are good enough to **** EVERYONE's recoveries up. But he can't chase low, and he can't make mistakes. DK has bair/uair and a ******** backwards hit of Up-b hitbox and auto cancelling on stage from many displacements off stage. He along with marth and MK are very efficient at getting to the ledge before you do as well.

This honestly feels like unexplored territory for many it seems. Far too often do I see people refusing to go offstage as Falco and play the ledge game when he would be perfectly fine at it if he calls his shots right the first time.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Like many things, it's cost vs reward. The cost of failure is very very high for Falco. It's not just a punish, but usually death.

The thing about brawl is there's a certain degree of unpredictability to everything due to how the game's mechanics work. You have to predict every action, you can' just follow DI and hit them. It's why safety is so important and, yes, why Falco doesn't chase people off-stage despite having a lot of tools there.