Official SWF Tier List v8

[Osennecho]

*Edit* Misread something in regards to how total votes were calculated.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

I disagree a lot with this tier list. (Sadly, it didn't matter if I voted or not, it wasn't gonna change anything).

 

[Z'zgashi]

@gashi: then we remember how unreasonable you're being because only ONE person voted ICs that low

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-bbrs-community-tier-list-voting.335206/#post-15410553

Nice research bro. And my problem isnt ICs as #2 (I actually believe that) its that they have their own tier, they DEFINITELY dont deserve that, and that was a stupid decision by the makers of this list.

 

[clowsui]

My own list:

SS MK
--
S ICs, Olimar, Diddy
A Marth/Falco, ZSS/Pikachu
B Snake, Wario, Lucario
--
C DDD, TL, Pit/Fox, Wolf

I don't care about the rest

@Gashi I'm pretty sure that high/low was based solely on BBR

 

[blacktwins13]

in Mid Tier Side Events? sucks for the ppl who get infinited by him

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Only MAJOR thing I disagree with is Puff not being SSSSSSSSSSS tier.

Other than that it looks good.

Maybe I'll post the 1 true tier list later.

 

[Jabejazz]

Maybe I'll post the 1 true tier list later.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Upper Mid Tier

C+:
(±0) (±0) (±0)

 

[RaptorTEC]

Why exactly didnt you guys just wait an extra month for the new mu chart to come out? Seriously?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I disagree a lot with this tier list.

im sorry ice climbers aren't first

ANYWAY

I'm slightly confused why Ice Climbers are in their own tier, but w/e.

Honestly, the tier list is fine, except I feel like there's too many divided sections, Fox is too high (why did he move up???/?????///?) and Dedede needs to be the bottom of high tier.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Why exactly didnt you guys just wait an extra month for the new mu chart to come out? Seriously?

Because the discussion in the other thread was ****ing terrible.

At least now people will be distracted by the new list before they revert back to talking about stupid **** like MK.

And hopefully, shortly after that happens the new MU chart is released so that distracts people for another month or so.

 

[Shadocat]

Thats what im saying!!!!!!

 

[DeLux]

So I guess my vote didn't count due to the "outlier" clause

ICs are bad and the world should feel bad

 

[Dekillsage]

So I guess my vote didn't count due to the "outlier" clause

ICs are bad and the world should feel bad

Feeling bad as we speak.

 

[Grimmz]

Peach and ZeLink got lowered the most

 

[Marc]

If there are any questions in particular I'm willing to answer them, but overall it was pretty tough to work out something objective from how the votes played out. You can tweak the criteria differently, but I'm not a fan of doing that to force a certain outcome. I've seen people vote ICs with characters lower than them and even some who voted them in the same tier as MK. Considering that, a clear gap with MK and Olimar and the fact that they're a solid second I don't see how it's such an extreme to have them in their own tier when characters under the same label are really not that far apart in viability. Someone questioned earlier how much better their matchup spread in v2 is than everyone else's sans MK, but if you recall tier list v7 we weighted them and that widened the gap a lot. Three of their four supposed losing matchups (MK, ZSS, Toon Link, Peach) aren't common, they beat or go even with top level threats and I don't expect v3 to make them look less viable. If we had been able to factor in results they might have ended up third or fourth again, but theoretically at least this is how it is.

As for further splitting up lower tiers, I always include the data so people can explore it. You could split up D and F up further if you'd really want to, but those gaps weren't particularly big and especially the low tiers had a pretty large range in which they were voted. Some people think the tier list is already too specific as it is, others would rather have splits all the way through. The question is how accurate it is for the lower tiers and how much it really matters at that point (from memory, you could put additional gaps after Ike, Bowser and Zelda). If you want to take it further you can even have more single character tiers, I recall Yoshi being one.

Upper mid tier is more akin to the old borderline tier in that you can decide for yourself if you want to include all C tiers or none with your mid tier tournaments. The actual mid tier starts at Kirby, but personally I would probably at least include C-. At the end of the day the tier list wasn't made with side events in mind, we just like to point out what the options are.

We didn't wait for v3 because the tier list is currently a yearly release and we don't like straying from that too much. It would also be a lot to process all at once and the matchup chart is such a massive undertaking that we can give estimates for its release at best.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I like reading posts from people who are like "omg this tier list is so bad wtf ice climbers in own tier" and then looking at their votes in the community tier list thread.

:>

Edit: Like I said, character distribution in the tier list is kinda weird, there's like 8 characters in the D and F tier but only two in C- and three in E.

Then again I'd have no idea how I'd distribute the characters, so yeah.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I don't understand what is with all the marth and ice climbers hate...

 

[TaleOfTheToaster]

I too expected a bigger jump for Zero Suit Samus. Above Pikachu, at least. I also think Ganondorf should go above Zelda.

 

[RaptorTEC]

... People have been waiting over a year and you think they'd mind an extra month for the new mu chart to come out? I can't believe how things are run in the smash community it's incredibly silly. This entire list is based off of votes on BBR members and the community. Half the community doesn't even understand how this game works yet and a lot of the BBR members don't care enough to extensively look at everything to make an accurate vote. At least if you guys waited for the mu chart to come out they'd have at least ONE thing to base their votes off that isn't their own rushed opinion.

 

[MX778]

How is Jiggs worse than Link? .___.

 

[Xyro77]

I really hope this is the last tier list for brawl. It keeps getting worse.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

... People have been waiting over a year and you think they'd mind an extra month for the new mu chart to come out? I can't believe how things are run in the smash community it's incredibly silly. This entire list is based off of votes on BBR members and the community. Half the community doesn't even understand how this game works yet and a lot of the BBR members don't care enough to extensively look at everything to make an accurate vote. At least if you guys waited for the mu chart to come out they'd have at least ONE thing to base their votes off that isn't their own rushed opinion.

Going to be fairly honest with you; I doubt the changes in the matchup chart are going to be too heavy to influence the tier list. I mean, the meta hasn't exactly evolved between v2 and v3, so I personally think that your argument is unreasonable.

 

[infiniteV115]

... People have been waiting over a year and you think they'd mind an extra month for the new mu chart to come out? I can't believe how things are run in the smash community it's incredibly silly. This entire list is based off of votes on BBR members and the community. Half the community doesn't even understand how this game works yet and a lot of the BBR members don't care enough to extensively look at everything to make an accurate vote. At least if you guys waited for the mu chart to come out they'd have at least ONE thing to base their votes off that isn't their own rushed opinion.

You seem to care about the tier list quite a bit

 

[pidgezero_one]

Why exactly didnt you guys just wait an extra month for the new mu chart to come out? Seriously?

They probably got sick of our **** in the V7 thread is my guess

 

[RaptorTEC]

I just don't like the idea that everything was based off of opinions alone without actual data. Unless I missed something but if it really was by votes alone... Lol

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I just don't like the idea that everything was based off of opinions alone without actual data. Unless I missed something but if it really was by votes alone... Lol

You're aware that the matchup chart itself is a gigantic opinion yeah?

 

[Jabejazz]

They probably got sick of our **** in the V7 thread is my guess

You're optimistic.

I just don't like the idea that everything was based off of opinions alone without actual data. Unless I missed something but if it really was by votes alone... Lol

I really doubt the tier list was based off on only opinions. The community tier list is most definitely not the only thing they used. Thinking that alone is silly.

 

[Vinnie]

To B0nk, since the previous thread is closed:

SRT is the only national placing and that tourney didn't have the amount of top players as Pound, Genesis, and Apex.

That's not true. You just don't count the top players there because you don't know anything about them, because they haven't come to America. That's like a Japanese player saying Dabuz isn't a top player because he's never been to Japan. SRT was definitely a harder tourney than Pound (that series is outdated anyway), and probably just as hard as Genesis, if not harder.

SRT did not have nearly as many top players as US nationals/internationals. They had a lot of top players, yes. Still not even close to the amount that show up to US nationals/internationals.

They also did not nearly have the same amount of attendance or character diversity as a US national/international.

Once again, wrong... SRT had 200 entrants. Which had more than every US tourney in the past couple of years except APEXes. What are you going to say next, APEX is the only national?

Also calling someone character, writing style, or argument ignorant does not make your argument any more convincing. I suggest refraining from using the word completely unless you have some basis to back it up.

Yes, but saying this while not having a valid argument doesn't make you suddenly right. You tried to make a point ("Solo ICs haven't gotten top 8 at a national/international tournament ever"), and got disproved. You tried to be around the bush when replying. You got disproved, you were wrong in the statement you said. Solo ICs got 3rd/140(SKTAR) and 2nd/200(SRT) (and 9B got 5th at SRT as well). Also, I don't think Lain's Metaknight did much of anything at all compared to his ICs on his journeys through the brackets of APEX2009&2010, where he got 3rd and 5th. Instead of trying to say how I'm wrong, say how you're right because you're failing at that really bad.

How exactly are SKTAR and SRT not valid as nationals? They were the 2 biggest and hardest nationals of last year, other than APEX2012. Once again, if you're going to blindly discredit SRT because you don't know 3/4 of the top players in Japan, I think I'm done with this argument.

IC's are not as viable of a solo character as Olimar, Snake, Diddy, Marth, and ZSS. Debatably others.

My problem with the way you debate is that you declare your opinions as fact, meanwhile there's a lot of evidence against what you say.

 

[Dekillsage]

You're aware that the matchup chart itself is a gigantic opinion yeah?

Based on actual discussion and agreement.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yo Vinnie while you're here is it true you think ZSS beats ICs?

 

[Vinnie]

Yo Vinnie while you're here is it true you think ZSS beats ICs?

No. I think it's slight ICs favor but it's a pretty close MU.

 

[infiniteV115]

kk, I remember you saying that quite a while back but then I heard from like 6 different people during and after Apex 2013 that you think ZSS wins so I was confused

 

[RaptorTEC]

You're aware that the matchup chart itself is a gigantic opinion yeah?

No, not really lol.
All I'm saying is someone's opinion should at least be based on some sort of data or evidence.
@Jabejazz Read the OP

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Based on actual discussion and agreement.

Similar to BBR votes.

I personally looked at results and the v2 matchup chart and the v7 tier list before deciding my vote. There was also discussion in the thread as to why people put <character> here or there.

This post should realistically answer this quote too:

No, not really lol.
All I'm saying is someone's opinion should at least be based on some sort of data or evidence.

 

[Yunior597]

Metaknight is now a Super Saiyan God :D

 

[BlueXenon]

If there are any questions in particular I'm willing to answer them, but overall it was pretty tough to work out something objective from how the votes played out. You can tweak the criteria differently, but I'm not a fan of doing that to force a certain outcome. I've seen people vote ICs with characters lower than them and even some who voted them in the same tier as MK. Considering that, a clear gap with MK and Olimar and the fact that they're a solid second I don't see how it's such an extreme to have them in their own tier when characters under the same label are really not that far apart in viability. Someone questioned earlier how much better their matchup spread in v2 is than everyone else's sans MK, but if you recall tier list v7 we weighted them and that widened the gap a lot. Three of their four supposed losing matchups (MK, ZSS, Toon Link, Peach) aren't common, they beat or go even with top level threats and I don't expect v3 to make them look less viable. If we had been able to factor in results they might have ended up third or fourth again, but theoretically at least this is how it is.

As for further splitting up lower tiers, I always include the data so people can explore it. You could split up D and F up further if you'd really want to, but those gaps weren't particularly big and especially the low tiers had a pretty large range in which they were voted. Some people think the tier list is already too specific as it is, others would rather have splits all the way through. The question is how accurate it is for the lower tiers and how much it really matters at that point (from memory, you could put additional gaps after Ike, Bowser and Zelda). If you want to take it further you can even have more single character tiers, I recall Yoshi being one.

Upper mid tier is more akin to the old borderline tier in that you can decide for yourself if you want to include all C tiers or none with your mid tier tournaments. The actual mid tier starts at Kirby, but personally I would probably at least include C-. At the end of the day the tier list wasn't made with side events in mind, we just like to point out what the options are.

We didn't wait for v3 because the tier list is currently a yearly release and we don't like straying from that too much. It would also be a lot to process all at once and the matchup chart is such a massive undertaking that we can give estimates for its release at best.

I would like to know why zss only moved up one spot, why Ness only moved up one spot, why peach only moved down 2 spots and why Lucario is in the same tier as toon link. Thankyou if you answer.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Also, Marth passing both Snake and Falco is weird @-@ I didn't think I'd ever see that happen.
Sonic should be below Ganon btw.

 

[GimR]

Still have no clue why Icies have their own tier. So stupid

 

[NickRiddle]

I love that people are shocked that Pikachu is higher than ZSS when Pikachu's a better character.
Srsly, ZSS won Apex, but Pikachu places higher than ZSS anywhere ESAM goes.