Official SWF Tier List v8

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I love that people are shocked that Pikachu is higher than ZSS when Pikachu's a better character.
Srsly, ZSS won Apex, but Pikachu places higher than ZSS anywhere ESAM goes.

Except Apex.

 

[NickRiddle]

Okay, except the one tournament I mentioned, you're right.

 

[Senortesta]

Still been about 3 years since a melee tier list update... sheesh

 

[infiniteV115]

That game has been out for over twice as long lol

 

[Z'zgashi]

The more I look at this list and hear the reasoning from the BBR people, the more I realize just how badly put together and organized this is. Can we just veto this list and get one where the people making it actually care about what theyre doing, the data is actually up to date and recent, etc.

 

[FEFIZ]

Thanks god, thanks! Marth come back to 5 *-* and Luigi + 1!!!! Ow DDD, you still the same xD IC 2?!? Ganon my love, still the same too xD. Zero Suit just +1? I think +2 will be better! I liked this new tier list =D

Marth 5, THANK YOU MIKENEKO!

 

[Kokomaniac]

I'm not that good at this game, but the first 4 characters in 3 tiers? Cmon

 

[-DR3W-]

Tiers in tiers in tiers...seriously?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So... Fox is too high. Everyone agrees, yes?

 

[Marc]

I would like to know why zss only moved up one spot, why Ness only moved up one spot, why peach only moved down 2 spots and why Lucario is in the same tier as toon link. Thankyou if you answer.

That has more to do with why people voted the way they did. Having seen a lot of the discussion, these are my educated guesses:

ZSS won APEX, which is obviously huge for the character and clearly pulled her away from Lucario etc. Besides that Salem generally does pretty well and the character gets results from several players in Europe too. However, I don't think Salem has won anything in even his region since (I could be wrong here and it's admittedly a very strong region), nor has any other ZSS done that well recently. That makes APEX an incident, even if it's very significant, but the general perception of the character hasn't quite launched her into the top realm just yet. The general consensus seems to be that she does well enough against the top threats to not be crippled by them, but a lot of her relevant matchups are evenish. I think someone compared her to Olimar, but it's really not the same, because for his jump in v7 Olimar performed extremely well with multiple mains over a long period of time and was found to have one of the best matchup spreads in the game. At some point it's also more about the player than the character, some fighting games have low tier mains pull a tournament win (for smash games though, I guess even for high tiers it's rare).

Ness goes under the radar of a lot of people, considering that only a few regions in the world have good Ness mains and he still has some very crippling matchups to deal with. It begs the question how fair it is to hold against characters past high tier that they can't perform solo, but with infinites legal Ness simply can't stay in for several matchups. Also note that before he was grouped with Pokémon Trainer and Luigi and has pulled away from them, similarly to how ZSS pulled away from her old peers. That's still a significant jump that solidifies him as a mid tier.

As for Peach, I'm not sure if she should have dropped further. I mean, not many characters below her are doing that much better and those mostly rely on one or two very skilled players. Similarly to R.O.B., she has some utility through a few decent higher tiered matchups. Not sure what the Lucario/Toon Link question is about, they're both characters that can compete decently well but lack results?

 

[GimR]

What has Ice Climbers done to warrant their own tier? They're good, probably even second, but their own tier? no

 

[Dekillsage]

I love that people are shocked that Pikachu is higher than ZSS when Pikachu's a better character.
Srsly, ZSS won Apex, but Pikachu places higher than ZSS anywhere ESAM goes.

Esam alternate between two characters though. Are his wins with pikachu alone really better than the Zss players?

 

[Osennecho]

Going to be fairly honest with you; I doubt the changes in the matchup chart are going to be too heavy to influence the tier list. I mean, the meta hasn't exactly evolved between v2 and v3, so I personally think that your argument is unreasonable.

Didn't Marc basically say earlier in this thread that the matchup chart wasn't even accounted for in this tier list =.=... Something like
"Someone questioned earlier how much better their matchup spread in v2 is than everyone else's sans MK, but if you recall tier list v7 we weighted them and that widened the gap a lot."
He basically said it wasn't weighted... Which means all validity of this tier list just dropped several levels. His post was worded in a way that he can now say -- That wasn't what I meant/how I meant it -- but that would be a lie so I'm sure that won't be posted.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Didn't Marc basically say earlier in this thread that the matchup chart wasn't even accounted for in this tier list =.=... Something like
"Someone questioned earlier how much better their matchup spread in v2 is than everyone else's sans MK, but if you recall tier list v7 we weighted them and that widened the gap a lot."
He basically said it wasn't weighted... Which means all validity of this tier list just dropped several levels. His post was worded in a way that he can now say -- That wasn't what I meant/how I meant it -- but that would be a lie so I'm sure that won't be posted.

do you think the BBR members are stupid enough to just throw votes up without thinking about it or something?

I'm pretty sure v2 of the matchup chart wasn't weighted into the tier list but that doesn't mean the BBR members who voted didn't bother looking at it or have it influence their vote.

Does this make sense? It really seems like a few of you are thick enough to not understand this... :s

 

[Player-1]

WELL AT LEAST THE BBR GOT ONE THING RIGHT LOWERING DIDDY, DIDDY SUKS.

 

[Sunnysunny]

If there are any questions in particular I'm willing to answer them, but overall it was pretty tough to work out something objective from how the votes played out. .

Can the tier list still possibly be tweaked, or do we have to wait a whole nother year with this as the official BBR tier list?

I know making an accurate tier list isn't easy, and that there will always be small things that seem "off", but for accuracy sake I can't conceive a character like Lucario being considered mid-tier. His MU spread is far too balanced. I understand that a few of the top tiers have slight advantages on him, but he goes damn near even or better against everyone else. Slight advantages barely make a difference.

I just don't see how Wario can make high tier but Lucario can't.

Please tell me if it's gonna be a whole nother year, so I atleast know not to make an argument about this so it doesn't fall on deaf ears.

 

[Okuser]

lol @ falco above pika

 

[BlueXenon]

I love that people are shocked that Pikachu is higher than ZSS when Pikachu's a better character.
Srsly, ZSS won Apex, but Pikachu places higher than ZSS anywhere ESAM goes.

Esam uses ice climbers too.

 

[Player-1]

So... Fox is too high. Everyone agrees, yes?

fox for bottom tier

 

[Jabejazz]

Merge the upper tiers.
Break low tier into low/bottom/gutter trash tiers.
Make Lucario and TripleD High Tier.
Put Ganondorf below himself.

There, list fixed.

So I've been watching A Goofy Movie recently, and boy, I forgot how good the songs were.

If Powerline was a thing, I'd definitely have his albums.

 

[lordvaati]

-Mid Tier Tournaments
-King DeDeDe
-

 

[Karnu]

That is ****ing bull **** Lucario is Mid tier.

You guys need to watch more Trela. And while you are at it look up Richie And LucarioMaster!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS won APEX, which is obviously huge for the character and clearly pulled her away from Lucario etc. Besides that Salem generally does pretty well and the character gets results from several players in Europe too. However, I don't think Salem has won anything in even his region since (I could be wrong here and it's admittedly a very strong region), nor has any other ZSS done that well recently. That makes APEX an incident

OK can i ask what incident prompted Marth to be promoted to 5th on the tier list please

Because I can't find any "incidents" that come close to justifying such a placement

Marth has been doing... fine. For years. Fine. Well. Okay. Good. I'm not sure how on earth you could consider his placements any better than ZSS' even without Apex. He is not top 5. European Marths are good but they have no competition. Leon doesn't do notably well out of region and Mr. R does well, but not as well as ZSS recently.

Since Apex, Salem has gotten 2nd and 3rd in a region dominated by the world's best Meta Knights. Honestly. I'm not really sure what it is that you want. The fact that ZSS isn't top tier and Marth is, is a joke. If a national win and 2nd-and-3rd placements at NY/NJ since the national win aren't good enough for top tier for ZSS but just kind of being pretty good + top 5 at the national zss won, is good enough for Marth, then I'm right and you're all crazy. There's no other possible explanation.

 

[Osennecho]

do you think the BBR members are stupid enough to just throw votes up without thinking about it or something?

I'm pretty sure v2 of the matchup chart wasn't weighted into the tier list but that doesn't mean the BBR members who voted didn't bother looking at it or have it influence their vote.

Does this make sense? It really seems like a few of you are thick enough to not understand this... :s

No I didn't mean it in that manner and I apologize for it coming across that way. I had just realized how it appeared and was going to go fix it when I saw your post. I meant that it was not longer statistically weighted as it was for the first. Something I'm sure the majority of the community would prefer. Personally that was one of my favorite aspects of the V7 tier list.

 

[Player-1]

I have to disagree with a lot of the tier list, but a lot of what people are saying here is pretty stupid too.

zss sucks, lucario sucks, marth being top 5 is fine

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Marth is mediocre and top 5 is enormously egregious

 

[Ness 682]

Woot! Glad to see Ness rose this tier list! That sure makes me happy (even if it is minimal).

 

[Osennecho]

OK can i ask what incident prompted Marth to be promoted to 5th on the tier list please

Because I can't find any "incidents" that come close to justifying such a placement

Marth has been doing... fine. For years. Fine. Well. Okay. Good. I'm not sure how on earth you could consider his placements any better than ZSS' even without Apex. He is not top 5. European Marths are good but they have no competition. Leon doesn't do notably well out of region and Mr. R does well, but not as well as ZSS recently.

Since Apex, Salem has gotten 2nd and 3rd in a region dominated by the world's best Meta Knights. Honestly. I'm not really sure what it is that you want. The fact that ZSS isn't top tier and Marth is, is a joke. If a national win and 2nd-and-3rd placements at NY/NJ since the national win aren't good enough for top tier for ZSS but just kind of being pretty good + top 5 at the national zss won, is good enough for Marth, then I'm right and you're all crazy. There's no other possible explanation.

And I don't want anyone to cite Mikeneko as the reason for the move because I will cite SLS and Masha in return. At SRT if I recall correctly Masha got 4th using Falco and *ahem* Sonic?. Mikeneko got 7th. Or alternatively I will cite kamemushi's 4th place at Piosuma 2 with ZSS when Mikeneko actually got 2nd. Salem isn't the only ZSS to ever do well.

 

[Player-1]

marth is probably higher considering he loses to like 2 chars where as zss loses to like 20

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

OK but does he actually lose to 2 or does everyone just say he does

I mean if Marth had such a good match-up spread he should have no trouble justifying that constant top-5-to-7 position he's had since 2008, right? Right now his placements remind me of like Lucario.

I mean, seriously, his results are about what **** would look like if there were two really active copies of Trela.

 

[Player-1]

he loses to mk and ddd, then he goes even with like half the cast.

I'm just wondering at where all the olimars were in Salem's bracket. Gotta get on dat l cancel status.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Where were all the pikachus and ics in dehf's bracket at apex 2010? lol

Also, all 3 Marths lost to ZSS at Apex, maybe we should be re-evaluating that match-up

 

[Frr]

So that settles it right?

MK should be banned from competition based on his political beliefs now that we officially know he's part of the SS.

 

[Dekillsage]

Where were all the pikachus and ics in dehf's bracket at apex 2010? lol

Also, all 3 Marths lost to ZSS at Apex, maybe we should be re-evaluating that match-up

Losing to the other good characters

 

[Cassio]

Im not quite understanding the rational behind the backlash. Some peeps complain about the opinions of top players, complain about the community's opinion, complain about the BBR's opinion, and a list of tournament earnings is a separate task (and even that has its own issues), and at that point who's left to make a list? If you have a legitimate concern state it with reasoning and a reasoned alternative, complaining for the sake of complaining simply sounds like salt that those who have reasoned through this do not agree with you personally. Understand that just because something does not match your personal opinion does not mean it's automatically incorrect.

Now I think people are reading way too much into the tiers. IC's being S tier doesnt make their MU spread stronger or turn them into some broken monster, it simply means they are decisively the second best character. I know theres a lot of discussion where ICs should be that makes it seem like its up for debate, but honestly at this point that doesnt seem so true. An extremely strong portion of top level players i speak to agree they are second best, and an extremely strong portion of the community seems to agree with this as well, as well as a strong portion of top level IC players. Im not saying there isnt a case for them being lower, only that having their own tier really isnt that unreasonable. In fact the debate doesnt even seem to be about ICs, but rather the stagelist. Opinions seem more split when its discussed with a diverse stagelist, but even many who would place ICs lower concede that on a 7 stage list or smaller ICs at 2nd is a reasonable placement.


Anyways, here was my vote:

Top
S

A

Upper
B

High
C

Mid
D

E

Low
F

Bottom
G

Id already make some changes to that, and I'm able to discuss my reasoning if theres any questions.

 

[Player-1]

non existent.


coulda sword we were talking about marth and zss.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Marth? You mean that character with the awesome match-up spread?

***** please. Realistically it's as good as ZSS' if not worse.

 

[NickRiddle]

Tier list = best.
1. Meta Knight
2. Ice Climbers
3. Diddy Kong
4. Olimar
5 Falco
6. Pikachu
7. Marth
8. Snake
9. Zero Suit Samus
10. Wario
11. Lucario
12. King Dedede
13. Toon Link
14. Fox
15. Wolf
16. Mr. Game & Watch
17. R.O.B.
18. Ike
19. Ness
20. Peach
21. Pit
22. Kirby
23. Sonic
24. Sheik
25. Donkey Kong
26. Yoshi
27. Pokémon Trainer
28. Lucas
29. Luigi
30. Link
31. Samus
32. Mario
33. Captain Falcon
34. Bowser
35. Zelda
36. Jigglypuff
37. Ganondorf

 

[Player-1]

Fox is about 23 spots too high for that to be the best, you're getting there tho

 

[Dekillsage]

Alright I'm done with people putting snake below top 5/6. I will be the hero snake players need

Pls go to my website www.dekillsage.com and donate to me so that I may travel the world and get it shakin with everyone