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Official Stage Legality Discussion
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
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Ah. I never pay attention to Overswarm, so I wouldn't know.
His idea is good with the exception of the "Prove to me" section. There's far too much personal bias involved; but then, a certain amount is guaranteed in these situations.
To be frank, if I were in a position to enter those circuit events I'd rather have the broken stages legal to abuse rather than have them banned and be right.
RandomHero13
Smash Rookie
.
I video demonstration would be good.
I agree. Some stages i can see why they are banned but other... not so much.
I video demonstration would be good.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Wario has an extremely large advantage on Norfair. He can jump from top platforms back and forth with ease, making chasing him an incredibly hard task. You'd need a lingering projectile to beat his air dodge.
Mansion has the cave of life, and it's not as simple as "Break the house" because your opponent can just defend the pillars. There's also a lot of bs with teching or missing techs on the ceiling.
Green Greens is banned for multiple reasons. Apparently it's MK's best stage for under-the-stage planking. The blocks fall down at a rate of, I think, 3 every other second. The bomb glitch has yet to be easily recreated, and the only way to find out that it's activated is for something to randomly blow up. As well, camping behind the walls is extremely effective with the right pressuring tools.
Mansion has the cave of life, and it's not as simple as "Break the house" because your opponent can just defend the pillars. There's also a lot of bs with teching or missing techs on the ceiling.
Green Greens is banned for multiple reasons. Apparently it's MK's best stage for under-the-stage planking. The blocks fall down at a rate of, I think, 3 every other second. The bomb glitch has yet to be easily recreated, and the only way to find out that it's activated is for something to randomly blow up. As well, camping behind the walls is extremely effective with the right pressuring tools.
Excellent list. I agree 100% and see no other additions necessary.
However, to clarify, what is wrong with Hanenbow?
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Hanenbow does indeed have an issue with circling (looking at you, Wario and Jiggs!)
Take the upper platforms of Norfair but add more rest stops, hurtboxed platforms, no interfering hazards, and you get Hanenbow. It comes down to whoever has the faster aerial speed unless you can keep the lead throughout the entire match.
Take the upper platforms of Norfair but add more rest stops, hurtboxed platforms, no interfering hazards, and you get Hanenbow. It comes down to whoever has the faster aerial speed unless you can keep the lead throughout the entire match.
I would go to a tournament with 75m or Flat Zone 2 legal on the probably correct bet that I would be the only person there who knew how to play those stages. Granted, I might also be the only person there...
Norfair isn't banned in my region and shouldn't be banned. It's a perfectly fair stage.
Luigi's Mansion isn't banned everywhere, and I think it's a good example of a fair stage with a high learning curve and a ton of stage specific tactics. The thing is, if your opponent is defending the pillars, they aren't running away or camping the best defensive positions. They have to choose between the "broken" advantages at the moment or preserving the existence of such advantages while giving them up at the moment. Granted, the stage specific tactics are very strong; you really have to be patient/smart to deal with someone like Olimar here who is going for usmash chains against the ceiling. So I would personally argue this stage should be legal, but most people don't want to deal with things like that is why it is banned in most regions.
Green Greens is funky because the reason most people think it is broken (the "walls" + King Dedede) doesn't hold up at all for two reasons. The first is that, while it does enhance his chaingrabbing game some (though it's really not to a broken extent), it isn't going to work out very well for him against characters he can't chaingrab. Mr. Game & Watch in particular I'm quite sure is going to annihilate him here, and he really doesn't want to fight Fox or Falco here. Really, the only character in the lighest 1/3 of the cast I can imagine having DDD trouble on Green Greens is Jigglypuff, and we all know her tier position so that's really not a big worry. The point of that statement is that this stage is probably a pretty bad King Dedede counterpick because it's too easy to pick other characters to turn the tables on him and make it so he's counterpicking himself if he stays King Dedede. On the other hand, certain types of camping are indeed pretty dumb here; I know Mr. Game & Watch's run-away game is pretty ridiculous here from experience, and the stage is also generally Snake's playground. I'm not convinced it's broken; my experiences generally suggest to me that it's a very strong counterpick that is not broken but close to the limit of as unfair of a counterpick as we should be willing to accept. Saying that and seeing how much some people want to ban, I can see why this stage is having trouble making it on stage lists anywhere these days...
Norfair isn't banned in my region and shouldn't be banned. It's a perfectly fair stage.
Luigi's Mansion isn't banned everywhere, and I think it's a good example of a fair stage with a high learning curve and a ton of stage specific tactics. The thing is, if your opponent is defending the pillars, they aren't running away or camping the best defensive positions. They have to choose between the "broken" advantages at the moment or preserving the existence of such advantages while giving them up at the moment. Granted, the stage specific tactics are very strong; you really have to be patient/smart to deal with someone like Olimar here who is going for usmash chains against the ceiling. So I would personally argue this stage should be legal, but most people don't want to deal with things like that is why it is banned in most regions.
Green Greens is funky because the reason most people think it is broken (the "walls" + King Dedede) doesn't hold up at all for two reasons. The first is that, while it does enhance his chaingrabbing game some (though it's really not to a broken extent), it isn't going to work out very well for him against characters he can't chaingrab. Mr. Game & Watch in particular I'm quite sure is going to annihilate him here, and he really doesn't want to fight Fox or Falco here. Really, the only character in the lighest 1/3 of the cast I can imagine having DDD trouble on Green Greens is Jigglypuff, and we all know her tier position so that's really not a big worry. The point of that statement is that this stage is probably a pretty bad King Dedede counterpick because it's too easy to pick other characters to turn the tables on him and make it so he's counterpicking himself if he stays King Dedede. On the other hand, certain types of camping are indeed pretty dumb here; I know Mr. Game & Watch's run-away game is pretty ridiculous here from experience, and the stage is also generally Snake's playground. I'm not convinced it's broken; my experiences generally suggest to me that it's a very strong counterpick that is not broken but close to the limit of as unfair of a counterpick as we should be willing to accept. Saying that and seeing how much some people want to ban, I can see why this stage is having trouble making it on stage lists anywhere these days...
Gotcha. I am trying to wrap my noggin around which characters are 100 percent unable to defeat the circle abuse... Snake could, that's 1, lol... Falco/Fox? maybe... uh... samus perhaps... a small list no doubt, Marth's screwed... heh... there's so many characters in brawl, they're all starting to coalesce. Basically, short ranged/non-projectile/non-aerial characters get screwed here because they can't defeat the circle stall. I am gonna have to test this, methinks, I have never been one to circle stall, but this gives me an excuse to play around on one of the stranger stages.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Mario brothers can't fighting circling ;-;
Also, AA, I'd take you on at those stages, hahah. Just to see which one of us knows the stage better.
Also, AA, I'd take you on at those stages, hahah. Just to see which one of us knows the stage better.
Kinzer
Mammy
So how many of you want to help me win a $50 MM with a D3 Vs. my Sonic on Onett to prove that it is a perfectly legal stage?
At least wish me luck if you don't/can't post. :<
At least wish me luck if you don't/can't post. :<
infomon
Smash Scientist
Do you actually believe these things?
You're the first person in a while I've heard bring Wario up as breaking Norfair. New York seems to think it's Pikachu
many ppl say MK, although Vex says MK:Bowser is 50:50 there, and I think AA has said that it's a great G&W stage (?).Mansion has a lot of stage-specific tactics, none of which I've ever seen break a fight between decent players, though please direct me if I'm wrong..... the fact that some ppl think the stages is broken because of Donkey Kong makes me lol.
Green Greens isn't banned in a few regions. Heck, there's a tournament in west NY in a couple weekends that has Norfair and Luigi's Mansion banned, but GreenGreens is counterpick.
amapharos can you giv me more reason on why norfair shouldnt be banned, me and sum friend host a tourney , i dont want to remove norfair , but excesive plankin can happen in here.
And greens greens im planin on removing it kause of the wall infinite hehe, and Luigis mansion well i like this stage i mean you can survive in here even against an olimar
And greens greens im planin on removing it kause of the wall infinite hehe, and Luigis mansion well i like this stage i mean you can survive in here even against an olimar
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
infomon
Smash Scientist
^^ epic post, thx for that!
except that's absolutely not true... it gives metaknight MORE options to approach than ganondorf, which means overall the situation is skewed even further in MK's favour... basically, assume G-dorf is actually in the lead... then look at the positions on norfair - oh wow! there's way more options for MK to approach now!..
not to mention the lava will force gannon into a spot at the same rate as mk, which means MK will still have more options (because he's a better character), which means the lava stopping the "stalling" is moot
not to mention the lava will force gannon into a spot at the same rate as mk, which means MK will still have more options (because he's a better character), which means the lava stopping the "stalling" is moot
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
So you're saying it's not true that planking is less effective on Norfair... because Metaknight has more options to approach.
TP
Smash Master
So... MK has more options that Ganon... because of the stage? Good thing Ganon has the advantage against MK on other stages, where MK has no approach options against him.
Good one.
Yeah, planking is a defensive strategy, and works well on stages like FD, but on norfair, it's not quite nullified, but its easier to pressure a planker on, because you aren't forced to come at the planker from ... the plat they're planking on.
seriously? you guys are missing the point... planking works because of the lack of approach options right? well, there are even LESS options to approach on norfair, it's just because not all of the options are "get back to the ledge" since you can aggressively approach the opponent safely that you aren't labeling it as "planking", but I would personally still call it planking because you're abusing the ledges large sweetspot and invincibility to increase your "safe" options"
as soon as gannon gets into a spot where he might be able to approach with an attack, MK can re-position himself so that there are no longer any safe options... give the MK player some credit...
as soon as gannon gets into a spot where he might be able to approach with an attack, MK can re-position himself so that there are no longer any safe options... give the MK player some credit...
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
A situation where I can position myself to chase Metaknight around is infinitely superior to a situation where I can do nothing but eat uairs until the time runs out.
You're not moneymatching on Onett for $50. >=O
Also we need more Mario Bros. discussion. It's totally fair. It's impossible to plank there.
infomon
Smash Scientist
vids pl0x
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
I still don't understand why people haven't figured out "run up, powershield, ledge grab, **** MK" works. If you try to plank Marth, he can literally powershield your u-air out of a dash, grab the ledge, drop down, footstool to dair. At higher %, you die. At lower %, he has to wait for you to recover and gets to hit you out of it if he is on the ball. If you run up and miss the powershield, simply wait for your shield to recharge and try again. This works with almost every character in the game. You are invincible with MK below you.
o-Serin-o
I think 56 nights crazy
Video or it doesn't work...
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Probably extreme defensive play behind the star blocks.
Kinzer
Mammy
Oh yes I am. I see no reason why the stage shouldn't be here unless you got a community like Vegassmash that closes your thread, is unclear of the reasons for it/downright wrong about it, and gets the message all incorrect. I'd do something about it but I figure that by this point I should stop trying to change the masses and worry about myself and anybody else who wants to follow suit (Tails).
They'd probably just a bigger mess about it anyway. Now I'm legit mad. @#$%ing internet, why must you distort everything?!
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Dude. Before that money match, make sure you have a boss theme from ANY Sonic game playing on that stage.
It has to be done.
It has to be done.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=botp...BE73F459&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=16
This one. Somehow.
Do it.
Viable? Sure, so long as you can turn off the
highfive
Smash Lord
Why isn't there a master stage list for characters? As in:
Stage name:
Characters this stage works for:
Characters this stage works against:
I mean, every character discussion has stages that work for or against each character but why isn't there a good reference list?
Stage name:
Characters this stage works for:
Characters this stage works against:
I mean, every character discussion has stages that work for or against each character but why isn't there a good reference list?
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
That kind of list wouldn't work very well.
There's always differing opinions, and it would depend on the match-up a lot of the time.
There's this though: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187501
There's always differing opinions, and it would depend on the match-up a lot of the time.
There's this though: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187501
highfive
Smash Lord
Well. I guess that works. Thanks for the link(s) Meno.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Are you being serious or just saying you like Mario Circuit?
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
MK isn't going to let Marth grab the ledge and then footstool him. He can just Up-B if Marth grabs the ledge. It takes a little while for Marth to grab the ledge and then footstool, so do you think MK is just going to jump around and let Marth have his way with him or what?
The Meta Knight players I know ban Norfair against me, and while I've seen Meta Knight pull some stuff on ledges before, I've never seen him be even a little successful with it on Norfair. I'm pretty thoroughly convinced that Norfair is a terrible stage for ledgestalling and overall probably not especially good for Meta Knight when averaged across all matchups. Sure it's going to help him against really grounded characters like Falco or Ice Climbers, but against guys like Mr. Game & Watch, Wario, or Jigglypuff, Meta Knight is definitely not wanting to see Norfair. I'm of course, also convinced, that Norfair is a very fair stage and an excellent counterpick stage.
Also, some of the recent posts have been pretty bad. If you have something to say, back it up. It's not significant to anyone if you happen to like or dislike some stage if that's all you have to say...
Also, some of the recent posts have been pretty bad. If you have something to say, back it up. It's not significant to anyone if you happen to like or dislike some stage if that's all you have to say...
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