Official Stage Legality Discussion

[cemo]

you're going to get disqualified for that, you know.

 

[sunshade]

you're going to get disqualified for that, you know.

taken from the recommend rule set

"Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling"

I am not avoiding any and all conflict my opponent however will be because they are purposely not attacking me despite them being able to. Using the ruder to stall is not an act of stalling unless you are fighting one of the eight characters who cannot stop it by any means.

 

[cemo]

remember, that it is ultimately the TOs decision, and if he feels it's degenerating the gameplay or forcing him into an unwinnable situation, then you can get disqualified.

especially when what you're doing is -really- lame.

 

[sunshade]

remember, that it is ultimately the TOs decision, and if he feels it's degenerating the gameplay or forcing him into an unwinnable situation, then you can get disqualified.

especially when what you're doing is -really- lame.

If a tournament official wants to disqualify me then I will show him the rules regarding stalling and after the match how my opponent could have stopped the tactic. If the tournament official continues to disqualify me anyways then they are breaking their own rules and I will be vocal about it if I have to be.

Being -really- lame is not grounds to remove me from a tournament however in this case it is grounds to remove the stage.

 

[fkacyan]

I will be counter picking Pirate Ship whenever I know my opponent cannot play any of the 8 characters from before well and I know that they are not the type to go around reading stage legality threads or looking up silly crap like how to stand under a boat.

Hopefully everyone that is reading this thread will also go around abusing this because until people catch on it is free money.

This mindset is exactly what got stages banned in NJ.

As far as this being considered stalling goes - Yes, it is ultimately the decision of the TO in question. That being said, if the TO DQs you but you do prove that the basis of the decision was wrong and no reversal is declared, you have a situation that might make your tourney the next CoT4.

 

[cemo]

In my mind the rudder stalling would need to be banned. Because only the characters with projectiles (that reach) can effectively fight it.

Everything else just degenerates into the earlier mentioned situations, doesn't it? The idea that you -have- to pick one of those characters to stand a chance is awful. It's like people defending bridge of eldin because you can pick a character that Dedede can't chainthrow.

Obviously, you can't just ban/limit a chainthrow, that's too ridiculous, but rudder stalling is pretty clearcut.

 

[Linkshot]

Phen.

I'm starting to think you're ignoring my posts. I made a huge list of what hits a rudder staller.

It's very easily the majority of the cast.

If you take the minority to Pirate Ship, it's their own fault.

Philosophy: If a 0:100 matchup is allowed between two characters, why not between stage and character?

In short, if we are banning stages with an unbeatable strategy, we have to ban characters that have an unbeatable strategy against other characters.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

pirate ship should be banned... the "transformations" make for unplayable rounds...

Do I have to hull out my list about the transformsations and how you have to be braindead to get hit by the hazards unless you were forced into them? >_>

And again: In Texas PS is legal. No problems. Rudder Stalling is banned as far as I know. I've never seen it used, and UTD Zack (or whoever the G&W is) CP's with PS sometimes. Going under the rock isn't banned as some attacks can reach through it and hit the person inside.

And quite frankly: if your TO doesn't DQ you for stalling under the rudder, he's stupid. If your opponent doesn't call you on it, he's stupid. That would be like me not calling a MK for IDCing on FD the entire match, and then claiming the stage should be banned for that reason. In both cases, it's plainly obviously as to what you are doing and very easy to call.

 

[Linkshot]

You COULD be a scrub and call the TO over.

Or, y'know, you could just throw a god**** Fireball and he'll die instantly.

Problem solved.

(Not MK; the Rudder Staller)

 

[cemo]

Yeah, but out of the characters you can in theory stop it, only the ones who have a projectile can stop it effectively. You shouldn't be forced to -have- to choose a character you are not comfortable with. So I feel the only options are ban the stage, or ban rudder stalling.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm pretty sure everybody has a counterpick character.

If you don't, well, that's what a Personal Ban is for.

 

[bobson]

And quite frankly: if your TO doesn't DQ you for stalling under the rudder, he's stupid. If your opponent doesn't call you on it, he's stupid. That would be like me not calling a MK for IDCing on FD the entire match, and then claiming the stage should be banned for that reason. In both cases, it's plainly obviously as to what you are doing and very easy to call.

This is what I was arguing a few pages ago, but it's not as clear-cut as that. Enough characters can defeat the strategy for it not to be a clear ban. To draw a similar situation... suppose there was a stage with a formation something like this:

----~~~----
----|__|----

with the tildes being a platform and the rest being solid ground. In Brawl, you will generally have the advantage when your opponent's above you, so it's always the best decision to go inside this little alcove and camp it, regardless of whatever else is on the stage. Even though it's possible to get down there and attack an opponent who's there, some characters are too tall to abuse it, and some characters like Snake can use specials to attack the opponent without ever putting themselves in danger, the stage still becomes a battle to see who's the best at abusing the alcove instead of anything else in the majority of matchups, and despite it totally destroying some characters like Ganondorf, enough characters can get through it without taking too much damage to stop it from being an overcentralizing tactic like Metaknight's IDC.

If you leave the stage on with the tactic unbanned, the stage becomes a festival of stupidity and degenerate play. If you ban the tactic but not the stage, you're arbitrarily banning something that isn't necessarily broken (also in this case it would be harder to ban going in the alcove with specificity, but I'm disregarding that for the sake of my point). And if you don't have a clear ruling on either of these, victories on the stage are dictated by whether or not the TO decides if stalling was taking place rather than the winner.

I hate for something as dumb as this to ruin a stage, but I think banning Pirate Ship is the best option.


Linkshot: While a good number of characters can simply stop it with a projectile and that's that, the majority of characters still have to either go under there themselves and play chicken with the underside of the boat and their opponent to solve it or are unable to solve it at all. That means for the majority of matchups, the stage is going to be ********, regardless of the characters who can defeat it existing.

 

[cemo]

You shouldn't have to change characters to prevent one gimmick. :\
Neither should you have to ban Pirate Ship because you're opponent -might- second toon link.

The stage is usually banned here why am I even arguing this.

 

[Linkshot]

Because I live 2 hours away from you :D

Anyway, the majority of characters do have an option to combat it.

I forgot to add Samus' Homing Missile to the list. That little projectile beats A LOT of gayness (specifically planking).

I could also say that Final Destination is abusing a flat surface with no platforms, but I suppose it's not as extreme.

I suppose this means Pirate Ship gets banned :/


Well, then. What should we discuss now?

I suggest Yoshi's Island (Melee)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I suppose this means Pirate Ship gets banned :/

Heck no it doesn't.

You are going to ban a stage over something that is clearly DQ worthy, not questionable as to what you are doing, something the stage fixes itself (Wind/Tornado > Rudder Stalling), risky due to the close ship hull, AND only truly hinders a small handful of characters who can't do anything about it if your TO was braindead and didn't DQ the guy?

More characters are affected by the wall infinities at PS1. If you are going to ban PS because of simple as Rudder Stalling, this is what your stage selection is going to look like due to how sensitive you are to "being fair":

Starter

Yoshi's Island [Brawl] (37-0-0)
Battlefield (47-0-1)
Smashville (24-0-1)
Final Destination (26-2-1)


Starter/Counter

Lylat Cruise (16-9-0)
Halberd (18-16-0) Banned. Some characters can't do much about the hazards.
Pokémon Stadium 1 (16-14-2) Banned. Wall infinity is stalling.
Castle Siege (5-9-0)


Counter

Delfino Plaza (6-20-0) Banned. Wall infinities.
Brinstar (1-20-0) Banned. When the lava is at it's highest, some characters dominate too much.
Frigate Orpheon (1-29-0) Banned. Edgeless side hurts tethers too much.
Rainbow Cruise (0-30-1) Banned. See above.
Jungle Japes (0-14-1) Banend. Some characters can recover from falling off of the left side, some can't.
Pirate Ship (0-15-3) Banned. Some characters can deal with Rudder Stalling, some can't.
PictoChat (0-25-9)
Pokémon Stadium 2 (0-24-11) Banned. Conveyor belts screw over some characters too much.


Counter/Banned

Norfair (0-16-10) Banned. Ike and Marth can stall in the lava. Some characters can't deal with it. When lava comes from below and the side, some characters get too much stage control.
Luigi's Mansion (0-11-8) Banned. DK + G&W's momentum canceling anyone?
Distant Planet (0-15-11) Banned. Walk off. Clear advantage to D3/Falco.
Green Greens (0-6-9)
Yoshi's Island [Melee] (0-10-19) Banned. Walk off. Clear advantage to D3/Falco.
Port Town Aero Dive (0-12-23) Banned. Some characters can move out of the way of the cars quicker then others.

Seriously. -_-

 

[Linkshot]

Wheeeee thanks Nidtendo <3

I almost forgot the stage will stop you from stalling.

Pirate Ship for CP yayuhz!

(Also you forgot that Castle Siege has walkoffs)

 

[buenob]

i will save everyone time and keep this on topic...

Nfreak - that was a pretty fail post, with an incredible amount of over-simplification, not to mention just clearly pointing out the wrong inadequacies in each stage... Please, this thread easily gets off topic, try to just throw a penny on the track, not a moose

your thoughts on ps1 are interestingly flawed though... the "infinites" against the wall are guaranteed to finish, so would it really be considered stalling if you were to do one? also, the reason the walls DO effect the match is because it's impossible to approach... if the other person _lets_ you get to the point where they can attempt to infinite you, they failed at using their real advantage

on the topic of pirate ship -> rudder stalling is moot... it doesn't matter... the second that any character could possibly hit (and then kill from what I understand) someone stalling there, it's not a reason to ban the stage... The reason it should firmly stay in the CP/banned stage is the fact that the changes in the stage happen at random intervals, they are completely intrusive to gameplay, and last for a very long time... it's a bad level to play on (low grav mode for the loss)... most people don't like it, and most people don't want to play on it, but there is really no reason to ban it... "the projectiles are intrusive" can be countered with "don't get hit".. both valid opinions... but the fact is it really does ride the line of being a "different game", so it should stay in the CP/banned category (and you all know I lean to the ban side)

hopefully, we can move on and agree to disagree on the next lolz topic

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, that post was to prove a point. It is that extreme if you truly think PS should be banned for rudder stalling. I was showing where that kind of flawed logic would lead. Wall infinities and Rudder Stalling are both not indefinite. They are both doable only if you let the opponent get that far, which will be due to your poor positioning/stage control. They are more similar then they first appear. The stage control parts were a bit of an exaggeration, but not the wall infinities/lava stalling.

And the intervals weren't really random in the transformation. Give me a moment to find my information from before, but IIRC, it was on average 45 seconds for a transformation.

And it's in just "CP" not "CP/Banned". In fact, less people voted for it to be banned then the first time around choosing stages. :D

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7164168&highlight=Pirate+Ship#post7164168

 

[sunshade]

Heck no it doesn't.

You are going to ban a stage over something that is clearly DQ worthy, not questionable as to what you are doing, something the stage fixes itself (Wind/Tornado > Rudder Stalling), risky due to the close ship hull, AND only truly hinders a small handful of characters who can't do anything about it if your TO was braindead and didn't DQ the guy?

Using the rudder is not "clearly" DQ worthy, it is a tactic that is capable of being stopped however in many match ups it is such an over overwhelmingly powerful a tactic that your best option by a leap and a bound would be to ruddercamp. If I am standing on a platform with a percent lead and you dont know how to press the jump button to get up to me, am I stalling? The obvious answer is no because you are capable of defeating the tactic. Ruddercamping as not nearly as simply as learning to press the jump button however it is possible to overcome by the vast majority of the cast and disqualifying someone for a defeat-able tactic is simply wrong.

In fact here is the entire list of who can deal with rudder stall and how they can overcome it, all of it tested myself. I can also tell you that being close to the ships hull is not an issue because it is not difficult to land on the rudder at all and simply saying the stage will fix it is an unacceptable condition because a players only chance at victory should never be solely in the hands of the random number generator.

If the words are in red then it means that if the king of red lions is on stage you cannot stop the ruddercamping in anyway.

Those who can stop ruddercamping using a projectile
Mario can use his Neutral-B
Rob can use his Neutral-B
Pit can use his Neutral-B
Pikachu can use his or her Neutral-B
Snake can use his Neutral-B
Lucas can use his Up-B
Ness can use his Up-B
King Dedede can use his Side-B.
Zelda can use her Side-B
Samus can use her Side-B
Diddy can use his Down-B
Peach can use her Down-B
Link can use his Down-B

Those who can stop ruddercamping using diving
Sonic Can use his Down-air
Toon Link can use his Down-air
Mr. Game and Watch can use his Down-air
:shiek: Sheik can use her Down-air
Zerosuit Samus can use her Down-air
Ice climbers can use their Down-air
Ganondorf can use his Down-B
Captain Falcon can use his Down-B
Yoshi can use his Down-B
Wolf can use his Up-B
Wario can use Side-B

Those who can stop ruddercamping using a pushing method.
Kirby can use his Side-B
Ike can use his Down-B
Fox can use his Down-B
Metaknight can use his Down-B
Marth can use his Down-B

Those who cannot stop ruddercamping in anyway shape or form









You will notice that there are 13 people who cannot stop rudder stalling flat out or without having to push their opponent (which results in an underwater footsie match of life and death) and 11 people who can move under the rudder. This makes it so there are 143 matches on pirate ship in which a player can preform ruddercamping and be guaranteed success. In fact there are even more than 143 because there are people like King Dedede who can only prevent ruddercamping if he gets a lucky gordo toss which may or may not happen. You can also toss in zelda as someone capable of ruddercamping because once she gets a lead she can simply morph into sheik or regular samus can get a lead then turn into zero suit samus and ruddercamp as well.

If we do not ban the stage then we need a TO to moderate any of those 143+ matches and make sure that nobody ruddercamps and if they do the TO must make a verdict on a non black and white issue which will result in a TO hand picking results.

 

[bobson]

The closest thing to "intrusive" Pirate Ship gets to is the low gravity, and that lasts for, what, eight seconds? There's nothing wrong with the stage layouts Pirate Ship has.

Nfreak, there are three sets of characters concerning Pirate Ship. The first set is characters who can stop it with a projectile/attack, the second set is characters who can get under there but not stop it, and the third set is characters who can't do anything about it at all. 21 characters are in the first set (Dedede's Gordos go too far horizontally to land under the rudder without Dedede himself moving out of the blastlines before throwing them, and Waddle Dees just die in the water), 7 are in the second set (Yoshi and Wolf are included here because Yoshi's down-B can't hit someone too far to the left and Wolf has to kill himself to hit them), and 11 are in the second set. Everyone in the second set will have to play a degenerate game of underwater chicken to stop rudder stalling, and everyone in the third set just plain can't do anything. That makes almost half the roster totally screwed by this. In addition, many of the projectiles characters from group A have to use can be SDI'd so the opponent can avoid dying, and since most of them are relatively difficult to hit someone under the rudder with, it'll take a huge chunk of time to get them to percents where the projectiles can't be SDI'd far enough to avoid death (at which point the staller can just get out from under the rudder).

However, since a majority of characters can beat it, that makes it not DQ-worthy, unless you plan on banning something that isn't broken a la D3's infinites. If it was simply something like Metaknight's IDC, the tactic could just be banned and there would be no issue, but instead we're left with two similar-sized chunks of matchups where either everything is fine or you have to play a degenerate game of underwater footsies/just stand there and lose because your opponent got 1% more on you than him.

As far as the stage interrupting it, Lord knows I've spent enough time in training mode trying to get a specific transformation on this stage to know that the transformation order is random with repeats; it's very well possible for an entire match to go by without the rock or the wind. And, even if they do show up, the staller can still then stall in low-gravity or under the rock for ten seconds and then go back.

 

[infomon]

I'm still sad that there are people who can be told of a tactic, play with it for an hour or so on their own or with a friend, and think they can conclude the stage's ban-worthiness from their own reasoning about how it will play out at high-level across all character matchups.

Can you please let the tournament scene decide if the tactic is really overcentralizing??

If you're not letting actual tournament matches provide videos to the world showing why the tactic is dominant, then you're not providing a fair chance for the competitive scene to maybe find ways around the "unbeatable tactic".

Same goes for ledgecamping, airplanking, watercamping, flying under the stage, chaingrabs, DK's up-B on Luigi's Mansion, Sonic's HA stall on ex. Lylat, Pika camping on Norfair, MK's tornado (!), MK entirely, and a billion other random tactics or game properties that ppl jump to conclusions about with ridiculous haste.

 

[fkacyan]

I'm still sad that there are people who can be told of a tactic, play with it for an hour or so on their own or with a friend, and think they can conclude the stage's ban-worthiness from their own reasoning about how it will play out at high-level across all character matchups.

Can you please let the tournament scene decide if the tactic is really overcentralizing??

If you're not letting actual tournament matches provide videos to the world showing why the tactic is dominant, then you're not providing a fair chance for the competitive scene to maybe find ways around the "unbeatable tactic".

Same goes for ledgecamping, airplanking, watercamping, flying under the stage, chaingrabs, DK's up-B on Luigi's Mansion, Sonic's HA stall on ex. Lylat, Pika camping on Norfair, MK's tornado (!), MK entirely, and a billion other random tactics or game properties that ppl jump to conclusions about with ridiculous haste.

The way you say this implies that some of us have never seen stages get over-centralized with these tactics in tourney play before, and that if it's not you we have all jumped to conclusions.

I can assure you that this is not the case.

 

[infomon]

The way you say this implies that some of us have never seen stages get over-centralized with these tactics in tourney play before, and that if it's not you we have all jumped to conclusions.

I can assure you that this is not the case.

Oh, I'm well aware that New Jersey thinks it's the highest attainable level of tournament play :-)

no but srsly, my comment wasn't directed at everybody. I'm assuming you wouldn't call for Pirate Ship to be banned because "ruddercamping" is overpowered, when (correct me if I'm wrong) the tactic's never actually been used in a tournament, ever (?).

You've claimed that NJ bans stages that it thinks it has proven to itself are ban-worthy. And tbh I can respect the worldview about ban-worthiness that your region seems to adopt (as I understand it: random events and disruptive stage hazards should not be allowed to have a significant impact on tournament play, drawn by a tight thread as per your region's preference), even if it's not quite my own.

However, I'm not convinced that even by your region's perspective (as best I understand it, tho I haven't tried very hard), some of the tactics your region claims as over-centralizing would actually stay that way if given sufficient time and experimentation. Particularly since, I mean, peak Brawl metagame has not yet been reached, and you guys don't even seem to have any videos demonstrating half the stuff that's been claimed broken.

*shrug*

 

[NoBio]

Wierd I always thought corneria was legal could some one tell me why its not just wondering? other than the fact dk can Ko u at zero and Wall locks.

~BioLink

 

[bobson]

I'm still sad that there are people who can be told of a tactic, play with it for an hour or so on their own or with a friend, and think they can conclude the stage's ban-worthiness from their own reasoning about how it will play out at high-level across all character matchups.

Can you please let the tournament scene decide if the tactic is really overcentralizing??

If you're not letting actual tournament matches provide videos to the world showing why the tactic is dominant, then you're not providing a fair chance for the competitive scene to maybe find ways around the "unbeatable tactic".

Stalling somewhere where your opponent cannot possibly hit you isn't exactly something that players can find ways around.

It's more of a black and white situation. It's not like planking or watercamping or anything where there are a massive amount of tactics and situations to go over in each matchup before deciding whether it's truly broken or not; you are either playing a character that can hit a staller, in which case it will play no role in the match at all, or you're playing a character that cannot, in which case the match will be based entirely upon it if your opponent wants a free win.

Somewhat irrelevant, I imagine a lot of tourneygoers who know about this will willingly ignore it on the grounds that it's gay as hell and no **** fun, or out of fear of getting DQed. I know when I go to tournaments I'm usually more focused on improving my skill and having fun than strictly winning.

 

[infomon]

Hmmm, fair enough. But as far as we know it's only black and white for a handful of characters, right?

I guess you're probably right then, that it's the type of thing we should be able to unanimously determine and prove once-and-for-all; and either put together some vids showing the tactic and why it makes the stage necessarily degenerate, or show how it's a tactic that could be used by one of the opponents to force a different type of fight which is reasonably fair enough that it's not broken and will only rarely manifest in tournament. One way or the other.

But it seems like all the regions which don't currently ban Pirate Ship should see tournament results start to get skewed due to this interference, correct? If this doesn't happen, then we need to take a serious look at why not.

I wish I had time to do some experiments / record some vids.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't really see how rudder stalling is any different from going under, say, Pokemon Stadium in melee as Peach and using Peach Bomber on the pillar over and over again giving her a free win against, say, Marth. It's really obvious when it's being done, and it's exactly the sort of situation the "stalling" rule was designed to cover. I mean, sure, as Ness or Pikachu I could easily stop that, but it's hardly a fair situation because of that.

Rudder stalling won't prove "broken" consistently because you need a stock lead to exploit it since you take constant damage down there. If playing someone you are sure to beat either way, why would you bother (waste of time)? If playing someone noticeably better than you, you may not ever get a stock lead and thus never have the opportunity. A lot of players, irrationally, won't do it even if allowed. It's not so easy to execute that you could expect to succeed with it without practicing it beforehand anyway which further narrows the field (it's not a terribly hard mistake to accidentally hit the bow and die, turning the instant win into a horrible situation). I'm just expressing the limit of tournament data here; this is one of those things that needs to be banned regardless of what you see in tournament play on Pirate Ship (in whatever places you can find that allow it, of course).

The ambiguous enforcement issues suggested really aren't very convincing. Consider a far more plausible situation. Let's say it's same stock and the match ends to time. You were down in percentage. By standard tournament rules, you lose. However, what if you lie and say you were winning? Now, ask yourself this. Have you ever seen anyone try that? I haven't, and I doubt I ever will. Spectators (even ones you don't know are watching and are just kinda glancing that way sometimes) will contradict the person lying. It's not easy to be convincing to a TO when you're telling a blatant falsehood. It's blatant cheating to such an extent that the person doing it knows it is cheating and is going to not only lose their game if caught but probably be disqualified from the entire tournament (if I were the TO, I'd go a step further and throw them out of the venue even; that sort of thing is just not something we can tolerate even a little). It is just that cut and dry. If someone is told not to rudder stall and is found doing it, they're obviously willfully cheating, not just pushing an ambiguous rule. The hammer can come down on them hard; do they want to risk it? Even if they do, we can so easily justify heavy-handed penalties for it because it's so non-ambiguous that do we need to worry about it?

Pirate Ship is a pretty bad stage; it's easily the least fair stage on the current SBR list and is less fair than several of the stages they recommend for banning on top of that. Just look at Pirate Ship, and then look at Port Town Aero Dive. PTAD has no overpowering strategies and only demands you avoid a fairly deadly hazard which is well within everyone's capability. Why does Pirate Ship have such more fervent support? I'm convinced it's too bad to be worth it (and it is not because of the interactions the stage takes; those are if anything the best argument for keeping it around since they can disrupt the generally ridiculous water strategies to some extent). Even if I weren't, it seems like just about the worst battle to fight among the long list of stages we have reason to want to fight for; there are so many stages that are just so much better than it that get way less support (Distant Planet is VERY high on that list).

 

[Linkshot]

I agree that there are banned stages that need waaaaaay more support for legality.

I just want to throw out there that Pit can loop the arrow to hit the staller, regardless of King of Red Lions.
Also, Dedede can bounce the Gordo off the rudder.

Anyway, let's go back a page where I suggested Pipes. I really believe that stage needs more love.
AA is right that Distant Planet needs more (although it's a ***** to beat people going under the lip of the bottom leaf)

 

[bobson]

I don't really see how rudder stalling is any different from going under, say, Pokemon Stadium in melee as Peach and using Peach Bomber on the pillar over and over again giving her a free win against, say, Marth. It's really obvious when it's being done, and it's exactly the sort of situation the "stalling" rule was designed to cover. I mean, sure, as Ness or Pikachu I could easily stop that, but it's hardly a fair situation because of that.

The problem comes from the fact that the majority of the characters can stop it. I compared it to Dedede's infinites awhile back: if they worked on a majority of characters, then they would be overcentralizing, but as it stands, they only make a few matchups stupid instead of breaking the game, so they aren't banworthy. It's more comparable to planking than Peach Bombing in Melee in that it totally shuts out some characters but the majority have enough options to combat it.

You also don't necessarily need a stock lead; sometimes you can avoid taking the blastline damage regardless of where your opponent positions the camera. I'm guessing it depends on each characters' height, but I haven't tested. Nevermind, I guess you just don't take blastline damage in training mode.

 

[buenob]

rudder stalling is moot people! it doesn't matter... it's not _stalling_, it's not even as effective as planking, water planking, or from what I can tell spamming spot-dodge (joke)...

AA and I agreeing... the world has ended

anywho, the most indepth video of YI pipes is the one OS did with D3 (as far as I know) and I think that it's completely bannable... the uphill walkoff, the semi-"cave of immortality" and in general the very close blast zones all combine to make the level pretty OP

 

[infomon]

the uphill walkoff, the semi-"cave of immortality" and in general the very close blast zones all combine to make the level pretty AWESOME

fixed for awesome

pipes for legit until high-level-play proves it broken pl0x

 

[Linkshot]

^^^^^^

Pipes for biweekly pl0x

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Pipes?

I think it's a stage SA doesn't have as legal. O_o I can't remember ever having a match there...

 

[fkacyan]

fixed for awesome

pipes for legit until high-level-play proves it broken pl0x

I would agree with this if I could enter said tourneys for free.

 

[Overswarm]

fixed for awesome

pipes for legit until high-level-play proves it broken pl0x

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulp3CnuHMWc

 

[Linkshot]

I love that so much, Overswarm XDD

But, IMO, Pipes is an extremely fair level.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

I don't really see how rudder stalling is any different from going under, say, Pokemon Stadium in melee as Peach and using Peach Bomber on the pillar over and over again giving her a free win against, say, Marth. It's really obvious when it's being done, and it's exactly the sort of situation the "stalling" rule was designed to cover. I mean, sure, as Ness or Pikachu I could easily stop that, but it's hardly a fair situation because of that.

Rudder stalling won't prove "broken" consistently because you need a stock lead to exploit it since you take constant damage down there. If playing someone you are sure to beat either way, why would you bother (waste of time)? If playing someone noticeably better than you, you may not ever get a stock lead and thus never have the opportunity. A lot of players, irrationally, won't do it even if allowed. It's not so easy to execute that you could expect to succeed with it without practicing it beforehand anyway which further narrows the field (it's not a terribly hard mistake to accidentally hit the bow and die, turning the instant win into a horrible situation). I'm just expressing the limit of tournament data here; this is one of those things that needs to be banned regardless of what you see in tournament play on Pirate Ship (in whatever places you can find that allow it, of course).

The ambiguous enforcement issues suggested really aren't very convincing. Consider a far more plausible situation. Let's say it's same stock and the match ends to time. You were down in percentage. By standard tournament rules, you lose. However, what if you lie and say you were winning? Now, ask yourself this. Have you ever seen anyone try that? I haven't, and I doubt I ever will. Spectators (even ones you don't know are watching and are just kinda glancing that way sometimes) will contradict the person lying. It's not easy to be convincing to a TO when you're telling a blatant falsehood. It's blatant cheating to such an extent that the person doing it knows it is cheating and is going to not only lose their game if caught but probably be disqualified from the entire tournament (if I were the TO, I'd go a step further and throw them out of the venue even; that sort of thing is just not something we can tolerate even a little). It is just that cut and dry. If someone is told not to rudder stall and is found doing it, they're obviously willfully cheating, not just pushing an ambiguous rule. The hammer can come down on them hard; do they want to risk it? Even if they do, we can so easily justify heavy-handed penalties for it because it's so non-ambiguous that do we need to worry about it?

Pirate Ship is a pretty bad stage; it's easily the least fair stage on the current SBR list and is less fair than several of the stages they recommend for banning on top of that. Just look at Pirate Ship, and then look at Port Town Aero Dive. PTAD has no overpowering strategies and only demands you avoid a fairly deadly hazard which is well within everyone's capability. Why does Pirate Ship have such more fervent support? I'm convinced it's too bad to be worth it (and it is not because of the interactions the stage takes; those are if anything the best argument for keeping it around since they can disrupt the generally ridiculous water strategies to some extent). Even if I weren't, it seems like just about the worst battle to fight among the long list of stages we have reason to want to fight for; there are so many stages that are just so much better than it that get way less support (Distant Planet is VERY high on that list).

sorry i quoted that whole thing but whats rudder stalling?

 

[Kinzer]

Read a couple of posts back. I asked the same thing.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTkjItgz5c0
The second exploit is rudder stalling.

 

[Ripple]

so, I'm wondering why frigate isn't a neutral.

I love frigate, I don't see why its a CP, the only "hazard" is the stage flipping and that can be solved by jumping