Official Stage Legality Discussion

[deepseadiva]

There's also the lack of a ledge on the right side.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

so, I'm wondering why frigate isn't a neutral.

I love frigate, I don't see why its a CP, the only "hazard" is the stage flipping and that can be solved by jumping

Edgeless side. That hurts some characters too much to be neutral.

 

[Ripple]

Edgeless side. That hurts some characters too much to be neutral.

no johns, pikachu can't really do anything on yoshi's. it hurts him considerably.

lack of an edge hurts everyone the same amount and if it does hurt your character more so, why not strike it? problem solved

neutral potential IMHO

 

[Kinzer]

The problem is that there are more neutral stages than Frigate (and how it doesn't start off symmetrical either. One person starts off on the small platform on the left side, while somebody else starts off on the main platform).

As for Frigate being a choice in a stagelist that's lenient, like say a 5-7-9 starter... let's see... We have Pokeymangz Stadium I, Castle Siege, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Delfino Plaza, Lylat Cruise, and Halberd.

...You could put Frigate in there if you wanted, but you have to replace one stage (and in the case of only having 5-7, you need to take away as many stages needed to get that amount), seeing as how you need an odd number for striking.

There was something else I was going to say but I forgot...

 

[fkacyan]

no johns, pikachu can't really do anything on yoshi's. it hurts him considerably.

lack of an edge hurts everyone the same amount and if it does hurt your character more so, why not strike it? problem solved

neutral potential IMHO

Tell that to Olimar and ZSS.

 

[Linkshot]

ZSS kinda enjoys Frigate.

Just kinda. Stunning people during the flip = win.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Fino insists to me, credibly, that Frigate Orpheon, while not good for Olimar, isn't bad either. Apparently, as a mechanical stage, it has above average pluck ratios on pikmin pluck which is actually very important to Olimar, and it's usually pretty reasonable for Olimar to avoid the situations where that missing ledge would spell his demise.

The main argument against it is that it's overall just more character biased than so many more choices. Honestly, in terms of fairness, here's how I see it...

Core 5

Battlefield
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1

Absolutely nothing non-petty wrong with any of these stages, extremely non-controversial among sensible people, and in general stages that I don't see why shouldn't be starters at every event.

Tier 2

Final Destination
Halberd
Delfino Plaza

Each has its own issue. Final Destination's easiest to summarize issue is that it's the best stage for just too many characters and too many matchups. Diddy Kong and Ice Climbers in general are really easy examples, and those aren't exactly low tier characters. Of course, all around it's not a bad starter; it just isn't an easy inclusion like the first set. Halberd can be a decent counterpick in a fair number of matchups (all things told, about as "bad" as Final Destination just in different matchups or for the opposite side of the same matchup), but it has the strong advantage as a starter of being slightly leaning in the inherent unfairness any stage is going to have the opposite direction of most other starters meaning it's a positive balancing force on stage lists (and why it's a stage I favor for inclusion in 7 stage striking). It's also honestly not that skewed in most matchups anyway, definitely not very far straying from what we expect from a starter in terms of fairness. Delfino is a really solid stage as well, kinda similar in overall fairness to Halberd with some of the same factors with capitalizing on that style of movement and below the stage antics but also some different factors like a non-low ceiling, walk-offs/walls, and water. In any case, these three stages are very likely to be struck in most sets by informed players, but they do make good stages for starter lists.

Tier 3

Castle Siege
Pokemon Stadium 2
PictoChat

Castle Siege has a lot of walk-offs and, while overall honestly quite fair in most matchups, is clearly a step below the last tier in terms of fairness. Pokemon Stadium 2 and PictoChat have the same main problem of "great stages that people hate for stupid reasons", but to be fair, Pokemon Stadium 2 is definitely fairly sketchy as a starter regardless, definitely not in the top 9 candidates (the transformations, while they should definitely be handled with expertise by any skilled player, do sometimes lean fairly strongly one way in a matchup). PictoChat is just one of the most fair stages in the game in terms of matchups but everyone hates it so it's a battle you'll never win; some of the drawings that last for something around 13 seconds are kinda silly I guess at least.

Then you have Frigate Orpheon which I would say is at the top of the list for your fourth string starter stage. Even someone who supports liberal stage rules as I do, it seems a bit much (for standard Brawl, I think the actual best number of starters is nine with seven being an acceptable compromise... five just sucks, especially when one of them is FD). I'm not sure what I'd even put alongside Frigate Orpheon as a 13th starter. Jungle Japes? It's probably better to focus on just defeating these silly small lists that are everywhere these days, filling a larger selection with stages like Halberd, BOTH Lylat Cruise and Pokemon Stadium 1, Delfino, etc., than going for a more longshot like Frigate Orpheon. Frigate Orpheon is a great stage that should be legal everywhere (and is as far as I know), but I don't think the game is served with it as a starter.

I do wish more people didn't have this silly instinct that the more is going on with a stage, the more ill-suited to be a starter it is. Being non-static is a strong advantage for any starter; a transforming stage by its very nature does not give the same advantages to the same characters the whole time, and since our ultimate goal with starter stages even being separate from counterpick stages is to facilitate the first match happening on the least character biased stage possible, we should definitely consider that a big deal.

Also, thanks guys for being civil. I mean it; it just makes the forum better for everyone.

 

[Linkshot]

I would honestly say Frigate Orpheon is a better starter than Pokemon Stadium 2.

Pokemon Stadium 2 has some transformations that actually interfere with the flow of battle pretty heavily.
Out of these, Electric and Flying stand out the most (eat your heart out, Zapdos?). The conveyor belts actually gimp a lot of people (I've seen a Meta Knight get gimped by this by trying to Tornado on the belts). Bowser can't do Fortress OoS without falling off the stage, etc etc.
Flying has the problem of supporting stalling. Fox can just gain as much height as he wants if he has a stock lead. Disqualification for the Fox player? Not entirely; the TO can say "Pikachu, Pit, Ness, and Lucas are able to hit him. Suck it up." There's just so many tactics on the flying stage where it becomes "Who can abuse Low Gravity the most?"
Even with the Electric, it can become "Who can ignore the Conveyor Belts better?"
Then we have the obvious ICE. It highly discourages, wait for it, RUNNING. It benefits everybody that can sliding fSmash, if they don't trip across the ENTIRE STAGE.
I honestly don't even like having this stage legal, but it's on my boundaries, so I let it slide.

Now, benefits of Frigate Orpheon.
This is a transforming stage of the lowest calibur. It switches every now and then, and that small switch gives slight benefits to some characters. Actually, in Yoshi's case, it's nearly a free kill. But that's Yoshi.
As you said about Olimar, he gets a large ratio of Purples, and we know how Olimar loves Purples. To counterbalance this, about 25% of the time, he'll have a really hard time recovering. But don't worry! He has purples to smack the edgeguarder around!
As a whole, this is a small flat stage with a platform here and there, a slowly vertically shifting platform on one half, and side "recovery" platforms on the other half.
Kirby has a lot of fun with uThrow here. On a small selection of the cast, he can just OHKO them, or practically, if that's the case.
There's nothing overcentralising on Frigate. Actually, I enjoy the asymmetry. It means you have to decide which side is better for you and worse for your opponent. In a sense, it makes the stage a little less static even if it never shifted.

 

[bobson]

The conveyor belts don't gimp any character, they just gimp players who don't know how to handle them properly. I could say that Lylat gimps Metaknight because he can accidentally tornado under the stage more easily than anywhere else, but it's still reliant on player error and has nothing really to do with the stage.

The flying transformation is the main "problem" with PS2 in that you can basically stall here with any character for as long as the transformation lasts and then however long it takes you to land after that (which, for characters like Fox and Samus who can keep rising all throughout the wind and then stall themselves while falling back down, can be a long **** time). The rest of them don't really have any issues beyond general inexperience with the stage or favoring certain characters.

Personally, I'd put Frigate in the "3rd tier" starters in place of PS2, due to that and the general way that inexperience with the stage can totally ruin you which isn't usually present with other stages.


Are there any videos showing the effectiveness circle camping on Hanenbrow? It doesn't seem as obviously degenerate as the other circle campy stages, and I'm interested in seeing if it could potentially be a viable stage.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm more skeptical of looping on 75m than Hanenbow personally (and the stage's name is "Hanenbow"). I don't have any good videos, just old ones against an opponent much worse than me not really worth bringing up. It is, however, way too easy to run forever with Wario or Jigglypuff against, say, Bowser.

I don't find inexperience a compelling argument on PS2. Also, if the opponent tries to take to the skies, you can chase them up there. They can eventually get too high, but that will take a while during which they're wide open (and if you hit them, it will probably mess up what they're doing). Also, the stalling is obviously very temporary; I really don't see the big deal. Of course, any decent player will simply know PS2 and know it well so among high or even mid level play, we should expect all players to not be surprised by anything the stage does or by tactics effective under the varying conditions. I'm not sure why we should protect low level play as such...

 

[fkacyan]

I've said this several times before, and I'll say it again: Even by NJ's standards there isn't really a reason to ban it, with the exception of GnW occasionally killing you with the upair float if you jump as he uses it. That said, there really isn't much reason to CP it either... I've never in all my time at tourneys seen somebody complain about the stage being banned.

It doesn't really give anybody an advantage, it just makes the match take longer.

EDIT:

ZSS kinda enjoys Frigate.

Just kinda. Stunning people during the flip = win.

No we don't. ZSS's anti-gimp game gets ruined on Frigate, because people just hit us to the right.

 

[bobson]

You can sort of chase your opponent, if you happen to be playing a character with a high enough airspeed that also has an ability that allows them to reach the opponent. Otherwise, you might as well not even try. And even if you aren't trying to stall, it's hard to actually do anything safely during the transformation because just jumping at all unless your opponent is already above you will put you at a disadvantage. It's not so much a point against PS2 as it is something that's just really silly about the stage that Frigate, while being arguably as "fair," doesn't have.
Inexperience shouldn't be an argument against it in an ideal metagame, but with the stage being randomly banned like it is in too many regions and the fact that nationals and big tournaments more consistently side with the conservative stagelists that do ban it, it's very possible for a high-level player to never even play on the stage.

I can't believe I've been spelling Hanenbow wrong this entire time. How does that even happen?

 

[Linkshot]

If the majority is doing it wrong, how are you going to find out that it's right?

If you recover low with ZSS, you can Flip Kick off the wall, then attack and you'll land on the platform. (I'm pretty sure.)

I play ZSS, and I just wanted to point out that Frigate doesn't have absolutely nothing going for her.

 

[fkacyan]

If the majority is doing it wrong, how are you going to find out that it's right?

If you recover low with ZSS, you can Flip Kick off the wall, then attack and you'll land on the platform. (I'm pretty sure.)

I play ZSS, and I just wanted to point out that Frigate doesn't have absolutely nothing going for her.

It's probably her worst stage, and if the person has also gone Falco there's no way you're recovering. Also, the flip-kick off the wall is dependent on whether or not the platform is at its low or mid positions at the time. It's been proven that stages like Rainbow Cruise and such are far better for her than Frigate ever could be.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Final Destination is Mr. Game & Watch's worst stage on lists that have Mario Circuit banned (which are all of them in recent memory) so it being her worst stage doesn't necessarily mean it's a problem on that front.

Of course, people not picking Frigate Orpheon is probably a pretty good argument that it's pretty close to starter grade, maybe the best argument. If a stage is legal and not picked, either the players are irrational or it doesn't really give them much of an advantage (or, rather, if it does, they fail at exploiting it and know it). When legal, a stage like Norfair gets picked all the time because it's actually a potent counterpick. The fact that PictoChat, Pokemon Stadium 2, Castle Siege, and Frigate Orpheon really don't get picked makes me ask some questions. Of course, too many players are irrational about stage selection anyway to really pursue this point; people CP Smashville all the time when I know Smashville isn't their most powerful stage nearly that often. Maybe we need to start holding tournaments where all the "normal" starters are counterpicks and the starter list we use is just a list of generally unpopular stages. I mean, really, just imagine the implications of this being the starter list:

Pokemon Stadium 2
Frigate Orpheon
PictoChat
Castle Siege
Brinstar

I'm not convinced, with stage striking rules in place, that it would be unfair.

 

[fkacyan]

Final Destination is Mr. Game & Watch's worst stage on lists that have Mario Circuit banned (which are all of them in recent memory) so it being her worst stage doesn't necessarily mean it's a problem on that front.

Of course, people not picking Frigate Orpheon is probably a pretty good argument that it's pretty close to starter grade, maybe the best argument. If a stage is legal and not picked, either the players are irrational or it doesn't really give them much of an advantage (or, rather, if it does, they fail at exploiting it and know it). When legal, a stage like Norfair gets picked all the time because it's actually a potent counterpick. The fact that PictoChat, Pokemon Stadium 2, Castle Siege, and Frigate Orpheon really don't get picked makes me ask some questions. Of course, too many players are irrational about stage selection anyway to really pursue this point; people CP Smashville all the time when I know Smashville isn't their most powerful stage nearly that often. Maybe we need to start holding tournaments where all the "normal" starters are counterpicks and the starter list we use is just a list of generally unpopular stages. I mean, really, just imagine the implications of this being the starter list:

Pokemon Stadium 2
Frigate Orpheon
PictoChat
Castle Siege
Brinstar

I'm not convinced, with stage striking rules in place, that it would be unfair.

That the stage does not give an advantage doesn't mean that it's starter-quality. Many stages are chosen not because it gives your character and advantage but because it disadvantages the character you are playing against (i.e. choosing Rainbow Cruise against a character with poor aerial mobility).

As for that list:

PS2: Meh. Like I said earlier, almost everybody I know has no strong opinion on this stage for any of the categories.
Frigate: The main transformation makes it hard for many characters, and actually does give Diddy / Lucario some recovery advantages.
Pictochat: Not even convinced this should be a CP as of yet. Starter is kinda out of the question, lol
Castle Siege: If not for the second section, yes.
Brinstar: Definitely a CP. This stage gives gross advantages to characters like Marth, Wario, and MK who can kill reasonably early. As well, the hitboxes of the stage elements extends the length of time the hitboxes of attacks are out, so if Marth were to space a tipper on one or Wario were to fart on one, those hitboxes would stay out for gross amounts of time.

 

[Linkshot]

So...just don't jump into the ****?

I'd do this, AA. We just need some way to set it up and close the distance...without input lag >.>;

 

[fkacyan]

So...just don't jump into the ****?

I'd do this, AA. We just need some way to set it up and close the distance...without input lag >.>;

That's the worst argument for a stage being neutral I've ever heard, and I read my own arguments, and you know that's a poor argument.

 

[bobson]

What's the philosophy behind starters in the first place? What makes Battlefield "more neutral" than, say, Castle Siege, when they both still clearly favor some characters over others? And if there were in fact some kind of optimally neutral set of stages, wouldn't it be better to just play on those stages for every match anyway?

 

[Linkshot]

It doesn't make the hitbox LARGER, it just makes it linger, which applies to everybody in the game, it's also avoidable by staying out of its range @.@ By everybody.

 

[fkacyan]

It doesn't make the hitbox LARGER, it just makes it linger, which applies to everybody in the game, it's also avoidable by staying out of its range @.@ By everybody.

As I said, the lingering favors some characters far more heavily then others. A lingering tipper is far more dangerous than a linger pikmin, for example.

And it does make it 'larger' in the sense that as many hitboxes already have 'lingering' aspects it causes more of the hitboxes to be out for more of the entire duration of the attack.

 

[Linkshot]

Yoshi's Island's Shy Guys do it.
Castle Siege's statues do it.
Smashville's Balloon does it.

So Brinstar has a lot of it. They're easily avoidable and abusable. It's not a major advantage in high-level play.

 

[fkacyan]

Yoshi's Island's Shy Guys do it.
Castle Siege's statues do it.
Smashville's Balloon does it.

So Brinstar has a lot of it. They're easily avoidable and abusable. It's not a major advantage in high-level play.

On the contrary, it is a HUGE advantage in high level play. Knowing how to properly camp the level in high-level play is amazingly useful, because it gives you a CP that almost nobody is going to ban.

The stage has seen a lot of use recently in NJ at top8 matches.

 

[Linkshot]

Ohey

It's a rudder.

 

[Sucumbio]

lol there must be more SWF users playinge with anyone mode than we think as yesterday the stage was picked and we ALL immediately tried rudder camping haha, didn't work out so well tho -_-

 

[sunshade]

lol there must be more SWF users playinge with anyone mode than we think as yesterday the stage was picked and we ALL immediately tried rudder camping haha, didn't work out so well tho -_-

A few quick questions.

Which characters were being played?

Did any of the characters get a kill using the pushing method?

In your opinion (1 being not degenerate/10 being very degenerate) how degenerate was the fight?

 

[Sucumbio]

phew, lets see... I was marth, there was an ike, a rob, and a CF.

No kills were accomplished under the rudder because all 4 of us were trying it so no one could actually get their attempt successful, lol good spike kills tho, as a failed attempt kinda bobs you back up and leaves you fairly open...

Degenerate? eh it was a TB so it wasn't toooo bad, but the fact we all immediately disregarded the WHOLE STAGE in favor of that one little place kinda = degenerate (I admit I was the first into the water tho *cackle*) so I'd give it about a 7 or 8 on your scale.

In a 1vs1 though methinks the outcome would be totally different but in TB rudder camping seems impossible/bad-idea/not-worth-it

 

[sunshade]

phew, lets see... I was marth, there was an ike, a rob, and a CF.

No kills were accomplished under the rudder because all 4 of us were trying it so no one could actually get their attempt successful, lol good spike kills tho, as a failed attempt kinda bobs you back up and leaves you fairly open...

Degenerate? eh it was a TB so it wasn't toooo bad, but the fact we all immediately disregarded the WHOLE STAGE in favor of that one little place kinda = degenerate (I admit I was the first into the water tho *cackle*) so I'd give it about a 7 or 8 on your scale.

In a 1vs1 though methinks the outcome would be totally different but in TB rudder camping seems impossible/bad-idea/not-worth-it

Thanks for the information. Also here is my personal feeling of how ruddercamping affects teams.

Ruddercamping does not take an active effect until later on in the game. My personal experience is that when the match becomes a 2v1 situation ruddercamping begins to shine as one character stock tanks under the rudder and allows his team mate to leach off of him. If the opponent attempts to take out the ruddercamper he leaves himself open to those water spikes you mentioned. If the opponent ignores the ruddercamper then he must fight an opponent with a massive stock disadvantage. The player ruddercamping will also move out from under the rudder to prevent damage from being to low down and as a result make him an even more powerful stock tank and a switch in if the team mate becomes to damaged.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Any smart TO would have DQ'd the first team to have a guy under the rudder.

And even with a guy stock tanking, that team would have lost. Two extra stocks =/= enough to beat a constant two on one, except for when the ship hits the rock/wind transformation.

 

[sunshade]

Any smart TO would have DQ'd the first team to have a guy under the rudder.

And even with a guy stock tanking, that team would have lost. Two extra stocks =/= enough to beat a constant two on one, except for when the ship hits the rock/wind transformation.

I have said before that ruddercamping is not a dominant enough tactic to be banned. If we ban someone because of it then we are banning them for their opponents ignorance the majority of the time. If we someone is ruddercamping against the eight who cannot fight it then it is indeed bannable as stalling however in all other cases it is not stalling just simply exposing your opponents lack of knowledge of water physics.

I don't pretend to be a master of team battles. I rarely engage in them myself and if what I said was incorrect then I have no excuses other then lack of experience. I however will say that when a 2v1 arises the player on the 1 side will often resort to camping and running away more and the change in mentality of forcing him into a 1v1 situation (with the stocks stacked against him) can be useful if your team cannot deal with camping well.

 

[cloudenvy112]

I'm confused as to why Japes is on the list. It's a horrible stage for almost all the characters and the water has things that can kill you besides itself. Japes should be banned for extremely high ceiling too. I like Kongo Jungle better.

 

[buenob]

lol if the team with the extra person rudder camps, they deserve what's coming to them... good players with real teamwork (ie. a team) are incredibly difficult to take 2v1, so they have a rediculous advantage which would be thrown away by rudder camping... why are we still talking about this? lol

japes is a legit CP for the high ceiling and lack of dying below... the insane number of reachable ledges is countered by the predictable KO-hazard, and the level in general promotes excessive defensive play, without giving too big an advantage

 

[Linkshot]

On top of that, Kongo Jungle doesn't even exist in Brawl.

 

[cloudenvy112]

On top of that, Kongo Jungle doesn't even exist in Brawl.

I know Kongo Jungle doesn't exist on Brawl. That's why I said I liked it better because I prefer it over Japes.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

How can a stage be horrible for most characters? In any matchup, the stage is going to be a positive for one character and a negative for another. I mean, as an example, most people seem to believe Rainbow Cruise is bad for Olimar, but in Olimar vs Ice Climbers, I suspect it helps Olimar, and against a dedicated Ice Climbers main, an Olimar user might consider counterpicking it. Thinking of it that way, it's hard to see how a stage could be bad for most characters...

I would point out about Jungle Japes that characters who are good in the air actually have an above average approach game here. You can harass extremely well from the ledges if the opponent hangs out near them (and there's really only one place on the stage that isn't hear them), and you can easily attack through the thin stage while utilizing the river to make otherwise crazy maneuvers safe (though sometimes the person above can pull some amazing tricks as counterplay; keyspiking through the ground as Mr. Game & Watch for the kill is amazing). The long and easily accessible central platform means you can pretty much always get yourself above the opponent safely even if they are defensively controlling center stage. Sure everyone lives a really long time on Jungle Japes, but I don't find the content of the gameplay to be particularly defensive (if anything, people are more willing to take risks when they have to worry less about being killed, especially relevant when jumping in on characters like Snake with very strong vertical kill options).

In any case, Jungle Japes is very obvious non-broken in terms of gameplay; I can't imagine any circumstance in which a rational player would say "they just counterpicked Jungle Japes; the match is now hopeless". Even if it were really radical (and it's not), I don't see how it is even remotely close to a candidate for a ban.

 

[infomon]

Of possible interest for us here:

Overswarm's PROVE IT contest!

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8860886&postcount=139

 

[Linkshot]

I caught it from the RSS feed. I'd need a camera D:

<3 you Overswarm.

 

[sunshade]

I have been thinking about Hanenbow being legal in doubles and I was wondering why other banned stages are not given the same status. Bridge of Eldin, and Shadow Moses Island both seem to be candidate for legalization in doubles matches. They both suffer from chaingrabbing being overwhelmingly dominate strategy however in team play chaingrabs are not nearly as powerful due to the assistance of your team mate.

I could see Shadow Moses Island continuing to be banned due to the cave of life effect however Bridge of Eldin seems deserving of the Hanenbow treatment.

 

[bobson]

I've never seen a single tournament with Hanenbow allowed in doubles. I do think testing a separate stagelist for 2v2s is a good idea, but I can't help but imagine that the only way to do so without going down in a cloud of derision and apathy would be to host a large tournament with a stagelist like that. And the intersection of the sets of people who have the funds and experience to host a large tournament and the sets of people who are willing to risk their turnout for controversial rulesets is painfully small.

 

[fkacyan]

I caught it from the RSS feed. I'd need a camera D:

<3 you Overswarm.

Or recording equipment / software, which is pitifully cheap at this point in time. Alas, were I in ownership of a Wii.

What are the other stages he's talking about in that post (Equity, Abyss, etc)?