Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[LancerStaff]

1. Does power shielding a multi hit move become negated if you don't take advantage of it before being hit by another move?

I was told yes the other day... Before the patch I think.

And a curious observation of mine. I was testing Pit with a friend on day one of the patch and found that with max freshness and very slight charge you couldn't roll out of Pit's Fsmash if the first hit made contact with a shield. Yesterday in training I was using frame advance to see how much charge it would take to make it link without freshness and found that you could always roll out of it safely even at max charge.

So does anybody know what's going on? Either it's human error (wouldn't be surprised), freshness has a hitstun bonus larger then the increased damage of charging can give, it's harder/impossible to buffer a roll in shieldstun (Or was it always like this?), or training is messing something else up.

 

[Pazx]

LancerStaff it seems like human error to me, I accidentally triggered the Diddy glitch against a max charge fsmash (I read your/someone else's earlier post and was like "oh I'm stuck in shield now"). I shield grabbed though and that's how I got hit, I'm not sure if there was time to drop shield between the hits (probably?).

 

[Vipermoon]

Just use hit frames and calculated shield stun to see if something combos on shield or what you can or cannot do between hits.

 

[busken]

Can somebody explain all of the options you have during the intial dash in Smash 4?
When I say intial dash I mean while foxtrotting. You can basically go into this option immediately out of the fox trot.

Stutter Step F-smash
Very beginning of dash animation

Jump
Dash grab/boost grab
dash attack
side special
turnaround f-tilt and f-smash(only during dash back)
Roll

Any other option not listed would give a slight delay such as shield, perfect pivot, etc

thoughts?

 

[Thinkaman]

Can somebody explain all of the options you have during the intial dash in Smash 4?
When I say intial dash I mean while foxtrotting. You can basically go into this option immediately out of the fox trot.

Stutter Step F-smash
Very beginning of dash animation

Jump
Dash grab/boost grab
dash attack
side special
turnaround f-tilt and f-smash(only during dash back)
Roll

Any other option not listed would give a slight delay such as shield, perfect pivot, etc

thoughts?

Jump implies jump-cancelled up-smash and up-b.

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

Is Dash Dancing truly useless in Smash 4? I feel like its completely character dependent.

Characters like:



Thoughts?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I suppose this is a good place to put this:

Just had two Donkey Kongs hit a shield with F-Smash at the same time (20% each) and it broke in the same manner. Doing the same with two Captain Falcons (two 19% F-Smashes at once) left it with a bit of shield.

Aerial Reverse Warlock Punch also breaks shields if you block a few frames after putting your shield up, and that does 40% with no extra shield damage.

Looks like shields effectively have 40 HP (40-point-something, actually; if you shield a 40% move, on, like Frame 4 it will barely be intact. Shields also do not take damage over time while in hitlag freeze or shieldstun.

Full shields break in approximately 6.5 seconds from natural deterioration over time, so that means shields take a little more than 6 damage every 60 frames (6.154 damage per second if I'm doing this right).

 

[-RedX-]

Shields having lower health makes a lot of sense looking at the moves that had a decent amount of bonus shield damage, excluding moves like Ganon UTilt, Ike's charged Eruption, etc.

How has shield deterioration been affected? Or is it the same as last patch? Couldn't people just test on an old patch by holding shield and see how long it takes to break in order for confirmation?

 

[Pikabunz]

How has shield deterioration been affected? Or is it the same as last patch? Couldn't people just test on an old patch by holding shield and see how long it takes to break in order for confirmation?

Just did this and it looks the same to me.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm not saying it was necessarily different in previous patches. This is just testing with the current stuff.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I suppose this is a good place to put this:

You must be doing it in versus mode which has a 1.05x multiplier, making it 42%.

Bowser fall + landing hit of Down B doesn't quite break shields in training mode and it has 20% (+5) + 11% (+5) = 41.

 

[LancerStaff]

I know that aerial Dark Pit Fspecials do 9.5% + 10 shield damage, and before and after the patch it wouldn't break a shield.

Two grounded Pit Fspecials (11% + 10 shield damage) would break a shield pre-patch, so if they're weaker it's not by much. Kinda fudged the numbers pre patch though... Didn't leave the shield out the entire time between the two hits. I actually kept putting it up and dropping it in attempt to keep it where it was. Combined with what we know it's somewhere between 41 and 42 HP.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Shield health has been this way since 1.0.0 though.

They haven't touched shield health or regen.

 

[Ghostbone]

Shield health has been this way since 1.0.0 though.

They haven't touched shield health or regen.

Were we just wrong about shields all along then?

 

[LancerStaff]

Were we just wrong about shields all along then?

From the looks of it.

 

[Vipermoon]

That would make sense since I'm certain Shield Breaker is weaker.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Were we just wrong about shields all along then?

Yes.

Bowser Bomb fall + landing hit was never able to one shot a shield before and it still can't one shot a shield now.

MAYBE they touched regen, but it seems the same as prepatch to me.

That would make sense since I'm certain Shield Breaker is weaker.

They nerfed the shield damage on shieldbreaker by 5.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You must be doing it in versus mode which has a 1.05x multiplier, making it 42%.

Bowser fall + landing hit of Down B doesn't quite break shields in training mode and it has 20% (+5) + 11% (+5) = 41.

I was most certainly doing it in Training Mode. Try it for yourself, or with Giga Mac U-Smash (which also does 40%).

Maybe it's 41-point-something. Either way, it's not 50.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I was most certainly doing it in Training Mode. Try it for yourself, or with Giga Mac U-Smash (which also does 40%).

That's weird. Maybe bonus shield damage isn't 1:1 to actual percent damage?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That may be the case. DK's Forward-B did 10% damage and 30 shield damage before the most recent patch, and if shield health is the same in all patches, that should just break basically all shields if it's not the case.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

What if bonus shield damage is affected by freshness bonus/stale moves? Would that explain anything?

 

[Vipermoon]

KuroganeHammer I know. What I'm saying is you claiming nothing changed could make sense because the Shield Breaker nerf makes it seem to break shields less.

TheReflexWonder Definitely not 41.something because I was able to block something that did nearly 44% damage to a shield.

@JaimetheAuraUser No because most of us are using training mode and that wouldn't make sense. I'm sure it just changes normal damage like it always did.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What if bonus shield damage is affected by freshness bonus/stale moves? Would that explain anything?

It isn't. I can confirm this from testing a while ago.

I don't like the idea of using equipment to determine this. There may be hidden variables.

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay from now on this discussion will be in the 1.1.1 Shield thread.

 

[Yikarur]

Can we please stick to the discussion in the actual thread?
www.smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-1-1-1.419235
it's hard right now jumping between 3 threads. Just use the shield thread.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This has nothing to do with 1.1.1's shields.

1.1.1's shields are exactly the same as 1.0.0, aside from shieldstun/hitlag/lock changes.

This thread is called the "mechanics" thread because it has to do with game mechanics.

 

[Yikarur]

and people are asking if the shield got less HP in 1.1.1. Thats the point.

 

[LancerStaff]

Does it really matter where we take it so long as it's all in one place? <.<

 

[Vipermoon]

This has nothing to do with 1.1.1's shields.

1.1.1's shields are exactly the same as 1.0.0, aside from shieldstun/hitlag/lock changes.

This thread is called the "mechanics" thread because it has to do with game mechanics.

Can you prove that shield HP wasn't changed in the new patch?

Thinkaman @Dantarion Is this stuff accessible?

 

[LancerStaff]

Can you prove that shield HP wasn't changed in the new patch?

Thinkaman @Dantarion Is this stuff accessible?

Bowser Bomb in training almost breaking shields I'm pretty sure was a thing so he's not wrong...

 

[Big O]

I tested shields with DK's punch at various charges in training mode (does 10 + 2 per charge and 0 bonus shield damage) and came to the conclusion that any combination dealing >= 42 damage (including shield damage) broke shields instantly. DK's Fsmash does 1 bonus damage to shields, so double Fsmash breaking shields supports this. My guess is either shields take damage above a 1:1 ratio, or maybe they take extra damage per hit. The shield damage ratio or bonus damage per hit might even be tied to the element of the attack. I doubt that is the case, but things like electric attacks having extra hitlag make it a possibility.

 

[Ulevo]

Does using moves on shield count towards stale move que?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Does using moves on shield count towards stale move que?

It does not.

 

[Vipermoon]

Looks like it's maybe possible to tech everything?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Looks iffy, like the ground-to.air transition probably has something to do here, an the Fsmash looked like it bounced in the wall once before teching. Then there's the Uair clip that I don't know if I can remain skeptical to.

 

[teluoborg]

There are actually many times during fights when I have had this feeling, when you get the tech but my character had already finished his "recoil". I'm very interested to know the frame window on which you can tech hits that frame sync.

 

[Basty]

OK, I'm hoping this could be a new finding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddCCkvGGqdQ

Introducing the (whatever i call it) if it's new!

I first use it in the video during 0:04 and i use it to combo a dash attack into a knee.


I discovered (?) this while trying to practice perfect pivoting, the inputs are a lot like perfect pivoting. You do one direction (,) and immediately slam the control stick in the other direction (,)

It can help delay a dash attack with slower characters (my guess is that the frames of you moving are still going, so it doesn't use it immediately) and it can make for some cool mind games

Thank god i found this thread because i was about to just randomly post it as it's own thread.

If it's new, let me know so i can post my own thread about it

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's just dashdancing with only two inputs instead of more. It is common knowledge that you can change the distance of a dash after dashing in the opposite direction immediately beforehand.

Also, Dash Attack -> Falcon F-Air is not a combo.

 

[Basty]

That's just dashdancing with only two inputs instead of more. It is common knowledge that you can change the distance of a dash after dashing in the opposite direction immediately beforehand.

Also, Dash Attack -> Falcon F-Air is not a combo.

ahh ok

yeah i get that it isnt a combo, should of said just a string i guess? i play melee more so i'm not all to familiar with what sm4sh players use

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, if it's a string it's a string. If it's a combo it's a combo. That terminology doesn't change between games.

It's whatever, though! We want people to step up with whatever info they have. Not trying to be smarmy or anything. Thanks for sharing.