Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Megamang]

You already see great players use their shield almost instantaneously with great frequency, trying for powershields. Im glad it no longer heals your shield (correct?), but it is easier this game. I think you are right in that slightly delayed attacks may be a great way to punish this behavior, though there aren't many characters as good as ZSS at capitalizing on this.

 

[Big O]

Ahh, didn't think of it in the sense of stopping/starting a timer. This makes sense though, thanks for the explanation.

One more thing, do you know the maximum shield lock frames that can be carried over? Like if I hit someone on frame 4 of their shield, will frames "4-11" (8 frames) be added to shield drop or will it just be frames "5-11" (7 frames)? Similarly, if I hit someone on frame 11 of shield, will that last frame of shield lock still be added to shield drop or does it sort of overlap with the first frame of hitlag?

I just think this is a really interesting mechanic.

Being hit on frames 1-4 = powershield, while being hit on frames 5-11 increases shield drop lag. Getting hit on frame 5 = 7 frames of extra lag on shield drop and getting hit on frame 11 = 1 extra frame of lag on shield drop.

 

[Juan pWn!]

how to have better reads?

 

[Horseketchup]

Being hit on frames 1-4 = powershield, while being hit on frames 5-11 increases shield drop lag. Getting hit on frame 5 = 7 frames of extra lag on shield drop and getting hit on frame 11 = 1 extra frame of lag on shield drop.

Nice, thanks for the info! I thought powershield was only frame 1-3 though, and shield lock started on 4. Or at least that's what ive assumed since this thread way back on shields:

http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-smash-4.381183/

 

[Shaya]

I'm not sure if I've seen clarification that it is most definitely 1-4 in smash4. But it wouldn't surprise me much, although it doesn't in particular feel any different to brawl.

 

[teluoborg]

As far as I know perfect shielding has always been 4 frames since melee, with the only difference being that in melee the first 2 frames also reflect projectiles.

 

[Big O]

I'm not sure if I've seen clarification that it is most definitely 1-4 in smash4. But it wouldn't surprise me much, although it doesn't in particular feel any different to brawl.

If you start Ike's jab or DK's aerial Up B and hold shield at the same time, a powershield occurs. Both attacks hit on frame 4, so it is pretty easy to confirm this.

It may have also been intended to be 4 frames in Brawl, but the way the engine handled timers probably made the powershield window 3 frames in that game.

 

[Horseketchup]

By how Brawl handled timers is this referring to how input delay wasn't consistent, like how it sometimes differed from 1-3 frames?

 

[Shaya]

If you start Ike's jab or DK's aerial Up B and hold shield at the same time, a powershield occurs. Both attacks hit on frame 4, so it is pretty easy to confirm this.

It may have also been intended to be 4 frames in Brawl, but the way the engine handled timers probably made the powershield window 3 frames in that game.

Makes me wonder whether or not it's more like 3.25 frames (just like shield animation itself comes up in 1.25 frames) and it's being bumped up to 4th frame interactions.
*will double check in half/quarter speed training mode for ike's jab later*

 

[inconspikuous]

i have a question about mashing upB vs buffering upB in hitlag. does buffering work like teching, in that if you miss the buffer 10 frame window with your upB, it will come out later than if you buffered your upB within the 10 frame window (or at least would have a higher likelihood of coming out later)? or if i'm mashing upB while in hitlag, is it a higher likelihood that one of my upB inputs will be buffered and therefore a higher likelihood that the upB will come out on the first possible frame? i hope i phrased that clearly enough...

 

[GlishTheUmbreon]

While playing a match I accidentally did a running b-reversed shield breaker as Lucina and I slid along the ground a little bit in the opposite direction. This can be super useful in my eyes and I have to know if anyone else knows about it because I have never heard about it myself. I'm assuming it works with everyone. I know about b-reversing in the air and stuff but I didn't realize it could be done on the ground. I'm probably just getting to excited over something trivial but I had to ask.

 

[Ghostbone]

Can anyone tell me if this is a known thing, and if it was in previous games or not, but it seems like if you input up during your jumpsquat (might be only on the same frame you press jump? the timing felt the same with bowser and fox) you always full hop (tap jump off).
If you were holding up before you jump you short hop as normal though.

Further anecdotal testing, if you stop holding up by the end of jumpsquat you SH as normal.
Seems like the game's getting confused and registering up as jump if you press it at the same time as your jump button, so it counts you as holding jump, leading to a full hop.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Is it possible to buffer throw directional inputs?

 

[LightLV]

Yea Tuen's ZSS shield advantage/disadvantage thread is how I originally found out about the mechanic.

Without this, powershielding would be all reward with no risk. Now that there's added risk in powershielding, I think it adds some more depth to the shield game by forcing players to be more careful in how they use it. Attackers have an added incentive to barely delay attacks on shield, enough to hit the earliest possible frames of shield lock and give them that much more shield advantage.

I think this will eventually become a big part of the meta, as adding up to 7/8 shield drop frames for missed powershields is pretty huge when it comes down to it.

The "risk" for powershielding was originally blocking and either a) not powershielding, or b) attempting too slow and getting hit for it. However, the technique is extremely easy now, and normal blocking is more than safe enough to punish/shieldgrab practically everything, or at the very least have little to no pressure given to you for successfully blocking.

The amount of shield lag you can inflict offensively is non-existent in Smash 4, not to mention you can't knock people off the ledge anymore. As such there is literally no reason to ever try to actually have your attack shielded, you're just asking to die, which is why the best characters are able to have their attacks shielded while out of range of counterattack. There are a select few cases where you can throw out attacks and actually have favorable conditions if they get shielded (Link has a few of these, Luigi/Mario's fireballs are another example), but these are few in number.

tl;dr, there is very little benefit to be had (nearly none) in attempting to JUST BARELY not have your attack perfect shielded. The frames you're gaining are absolutely pathetic for the risk involved, and it's almost a given you're going to be at disadvantage anyway.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

What are the increments of rage that affect knockback?

For example
30% --> Knockback *0.5

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

It's nothing new, but I didn't knew about it
From the Smash Wiki:
"Shield Breaker can be reversed with no increase to damage or knockback and has no reverse animation; this makes reversing only useful if it is used to attack an enemy who has moved behind Marth/Lucina. It is interesting to note that when Marth/Lucina activates a reverse Shield Breaker during his running animation, he will turn around and slide forward slightly while charging or releasing the attack. This is probably because the running momentum has switched direction with Marth/Lucina since there is no animation for the reverse Shield Breaker and pushed them forward as if they didn't turn around at all."
Note: A Turnaround-B is not a B-Reverse. A Turnaround-B is just when you are in a direction and do your attack in the opposite one. A B-Reverse is this:

 

[Raijinken]

Grounded wavebounce?

Interesting, but I'm not sure how useful it'd be.

 

[Horseketchup]

The "risk" for powershielding was originally blocking and either a) not powershielding, or b) attempting too slow and getting hit for it. However, the technique is extremely easy now, and normal blocking is more than safe enough to punish/shieldgrab practically everything, or at the very least have little to no pressure given to you for successfully blocking.

The amount of shield lag you can inflict offensively is non-existent in Smash 4, not to mention you can't knock people off the ledge anymore. As such there is literally no reason to ever try to actually have your attack shielded, you're just asking to die, which is why the best characters are able to have their attacks shielded while out of range of counterattack. There are a select few cases where you can throw out attacks and actually have favorable conditions if they get shielded (Link has a few of these, Luigi/Mario's fireballs are another example), but these are few in number.

tl;dr, there is very little benefit to be had (nearly none) in attempting to JUST BARELY not have your attack perfect shielded. The frames you're gaining are absolutely pathetic for the risk involved, and it's almost a given you're going to be at disadvantage anyway.

If you're spacing attacks on shield out of grab range or as a cross up, up to 7 extra shield drop frames is a huge benefit I don't know what you mean by "almost no benefit". 2 or 3 frames, yea I'd say that's minimal, but 6 or 7 frames being added to shield drop seems pretty significant. You basically just doubled your opponents shield drop frames, and instead of being just barely safe you could now have frame advantage on your opponent especially for a lower lag or autocancelled aerial.

Say you land a 10% aerial on your opponent's shield, (lets assume equal hitlag and not factor that in) that's 3 frames of shieldstun + 7 frames of shield drop = 10 frames in SSB4. Add in max shield lock and that goes up to 17 frames for them to drop shield. The same attack in Melee would do 6 frames of shieldstun + 7 frames shield drop = 13 frames.

So a 10% attack on a barely missed perfect shield, spaced well or crossed up, could have 17 frames in Smash 4 compared to 13 frames in Melee. You make it sound like it still puts your opponent in a pathetic amount of lag, but really it's greater than the normal shieldstun + shield drop frames you'd see in Melee. If the same attack wouldn't have been normally safe on shield, than no its not worth the risk, but a well spaced attack can go from barely safe to advantageous with the extra frames.

And this is just in comparison with normal shielding. Perfect shields allow you to ignore the shield drop frames and attack right out it, but with this mechanic missing it by just one frame functionally could add 14 frames of shield drop onto what would've otherwise been non-existent shield drop. It adds that much more risk for missing, and in no way is it a given you'll still be at a disadvantage anyway. After all you're not just gonna land with an unsafe aerial right in front of the opponent and be grabbed if your a good player, but if you space your attack to connect a split second later than the opponent expects you will net yourself a huge advantage.

Without this mechanic the penalty for missing a perfect shield would be.... a normal shield. So in a situation where you'd shield anyway, there's no risk in going for a perfect shield instead since missing it leaves you where you would've been if you didn't attempt it. It's why I think this is a good mechanic overall since there is now a risk reward in weighing if you're confident enough you can land the reward from the 4 frame window, with the risk of up to 7 frames of extra shield drop if you miss. Perfect shielding projectiles is fairly easy since you see it coming in a predictable path, but perfect shielding an aerial or other attacks against a moving opponent can be tricky, and often you have to read the timing since it's beyond human reaction time. This can be exploited by a smart player.

I don't expect this to be important immediately to the game, but down the road when players are optimizing everything in nuanced ways stuff like this will make a big difference.

 

[LancerStaff]

While we're on perfect shields, how do multihit moves interact? Would a shield drop after a perfect shield and then another shield hit be the "normal" shield drop or the perfect shield drop? Likewise, if a move hit a shield to give it the "normal" slow drop and then again when it would give the "normal" fast drop, what would be the result?

 

[Megamang]

I can only answer a little of that, but they definitely don't get a perfect shield drop unless they drop right when they perfect shield. This makes multi hit moves a little safer on prefect shields, though a skilled opponent can sometimes OOS or shieldgrab you through the move right when they hear the ping. Ive seen people shield grab Mario for his up b, i believe.

 

[LancerStaff]

I can only answer a little of that, but they definitely don't get a perfect shield drop unless they drop right when they perfect shield. This makes multi hit moves a little safer on prefect shields, though a skilled opponent can sometimes OOS or shieldgrab you through the move right when they hear the ping. Ive seen people shield grab Mario for his up b, i believe.

Good to know. Grabbing a multihit move though, that's also really interesting... Who grabbed Mario in that situation?

Another point for Pit, Shaya.

 

[Horseketchup]

Well since we're on perfect shields,

I can only answer a little of that, but they definitely don't get a perfect shield drop unless they drop right when they perfect shield. This makes multi hit moves a little safer on prefect shields, though a skilled opponent can sometimes OOS or shieldgrab you through the move right when they hear the ping. Ive seen people shield grab Mario for his up b, i believe.

Well a shieldgrab out of a perfect shield should functionally be the same frame-wise as a normal shield, since shieldgrabs already bypass any shield drop frames. Though since it eliminates shield pushback, in certain situations it may allow you to grab a character out of a slower multihit attack that might've otherwise pushed you out of grab range with a normal shield.

As far as I understand, the benefit of perfect shields is that it eliminates shield push and shield damage, and allows you to do any attack right out of it without having to drop shield. But just dropping shield alone out of a perfect shield shouldn't eliminate shield drop frames, since to bypass it you have to buffer an attack right out if it.

One thing I'm not so sure of though is if perfect shielding either eliminates some of your shield hitlag or adds on more attacker hitlag. I'm almost positive it doesn't eliminate shieldstun unless you powershield a projectile, but I'm not exactly sure if there's also something going on to give you more frame advantage that is separate from what you get from cancelling shield drop frames.

Also in terms of the multi-hit properties, I know in Melee that faster multihit attacks can still preserve the benefit of a perfect shield. ssbwiki has a good article about it, though it might take a few read throughs to fully grasp:

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Powershield#...ill_preserve_the_physical_powershield_benefit

How exactly this works in Smash 4 though, I really can't say.

 

[XCounter]

Are the changes to shield stun universal?

 

[Pazx]

If I throw a banana at someone (and it hits) does it enter my stale move queue? (ie. "freshen" other moves?)

 

[LancerStaff]

Are the changes to shield stun universal?

Today's? Well yes, but we don't fully understand how. It may only be for heavier moves or something.

 

[DanGR]

Quoted from patch thread.

Since my old frame data sheet is way outdated, even for 1.10, I'm gonna be putting together a new one. The old one will still be there so you can better compare the shield numbers as I update the new one.

Currently only has Link, will hopefully have Ryu and Marth there by the end of today as well.

What's the formula for blockfreeze now?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Quoted from patch thread.

What's the formula for blockfreeze now?

Shieldstun formula seems to be damage/1.8 + 3 now, instead of damage/2.56.

 

[DanGR]

Shieldstun formula seems to be damage/1.8 + 3 now, instead of damage/2.56.

That's for blockstun, not block-freeze (which is another word for hitlag).

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

That's for blockstun, not block-freeze (which is another word for hitlag).

From what I can tell shield hitlag seems to behave the same as normal hitlag most of the time now, but I don't think anyone's got the specifics. Might still be the same as last patch?

 

[itsaxelol]

I've been playing smash since the day the first one came out, when I was 9 or 10. I'm not Zero, or someone who makes money off the game religiously winning tournaments. Just someone who loves the series and is a competent player.

I am curious as to how such a drastic change can be implemented in a game that's already been designed and developed around low shield stun. To increase shield stun past melee levels (a game that naturally gave characters more mobility, quicker frame data, and 50% cancelled aerials), in a game that has already been designed to be slower, with less mobility and less options, and no ability to L cancel is making me scratch my head. Reason being, unlike melee where quicker characters mobility and L cancel was universal, a huge chunk of the cast of smash 4 cannot take advantage of these changes.

Wouldn't a lot of work need to be redone to rebalance this accordingly? Wouldn't all this do, is increase viability of the quicker, more mobile and better frame data characters (aka, top and high tiers), increasing the gap between them and the already unviable, bottom half of the cast? It's easy to see where Sheik and Ryu are benefiting, but how about characters like Mewtwo or the heavies, who are losing both offense and defensive options in the form of shielding here?

I just don't see how such a change can be made if the game was not balanced with it in mind. So, I turn to you guys for answers. Am I overstating the importance of this change? Would they not need to do a ton of rebalancing? Am I wrong? If so, why?

Thanks

 

[HeavyLobster]

I've been playing smash since the day the first one came out, when I was 9 or 10. I'm not Zero, or someone who makes money off the game religiously winning tournaments. Just someone who loves the series and is a competent player.

I am curious as to how such a drastic change can be implemented in a game that's already been designed and developed around low shield stun. To increase shield stun past melee levels (a game that naturally gave characters more mobility, quicker frame data, and 50% cancelled aerials), in a game that has already been designed to be slower, with less mobility and less options, and no ability to L cancel is making me scratch my head. Reason being, unlike melee where quicker characters mobility and L cancel was universal, a huge chunk of the cast of smash 4 cannot take advantage of these changes.

Wouldn't a lot of work need to be redone to rebalance this accordingly? Wouldn't all this do, is increase viability of the quicker, more mobile and better frame data characters (aka, top and high tiers), increasing the gap between them and the already unviable, bottom half of the cast? It's easy to see where Sheik and Ryu are benefiting, but how about characters like Mewtwo or the heavies, who are losing both offense and defensive options in the form of shielding here?

I just don't see how such a change can be made if the game was not balanced with it in mind. So, I turn to you guys for answers. Am I overstating the importance of this change? Would they not need to do a ton of rebalancing? Am I wrong? If so, why?

Thanks

It really makes no sense to do this a year in. Maybe patch 1.0.4, but not at this stage in the game. Plus the game as it was was a perfectly functional competitive game that had decent balance. A minor global change like the 1.1.0 hitlag change wouldn't be as big a deal since it only affected certain moves by a few frames, but this is completely insane. We don't really know just how things will turn out, but in theory slower characters will struggle to do anything without running shield approaches to get past zoning. The worst part is that it fundamentally changes the game we've been playing into something very different, which hurts everyone who likes the game for what it is and has put time into learning it. We've had a year worth of patches incrementally changing the game mostly for the better, and then they throw this at us. I just don't get it.

 

[itsaxelol]

That's one person who is on my side of things. Anyone else care to input?

 

[busken]

How do you feel about the shield changes? Do you think that this is a buff to most characters? Do you think this will lead to shield not being used as often? Post your comments below!

 

[HeroMystic]

It really makes no sense to do this a year in.

Except many fighting games do this. It's expected, even.

The only difference is we don't have to pay for Ultimate Smash Brothers 4 Turbo Remix Edition.

 

[LightLV]

I've been playing smash since the day the first one came out, when I was 9 or 10. I'm not Zero, or someone who makes money off the game religiously winning tournaments. Just someone who loves the series and is a competent player.

I am curious as to how such a drastic change can be implemented in a game that's already been designed and developed around low shield stun. To increase shield stun past melee levels (a game that naturally gave characters more mobility, quicker frame data, and 50% cancelled aerials), in a game that has already been designed to be slower, with less mobility and less options, and no ability to L cancel is making me scratch my head. Reason being, unlike melee where quicker characters mobility and L cancel was universal, a huge chunk of the cast of smash 4 cannot take advantage of these changes.

Wouldn't a lot of work need to be redone to rebalance this accordingly? Wouldn't all this do, is increase viability of the quicker, more mobile and better frame data characters (aka, top and high tiers), increasing the gap between them and the already unviable, bottom half of the cast? It's easy to see where Sheik and Ryu are benefiting, but how about characters like Mewtwo or the heavies, who are losing both offense and defensive options in the form of shielding here?

I just don't see how such a change can be made if the game was not balanced with it in mind. So, I turn to you guys for answers. Am I overstating the importance of this change? Would they not need to do a ton of rebalancing? Am I wrong? If so, why?

Thanks

I wouldn't put much thought into this, because by all indications, Smash 4 wasn't necessarily "balanced" for low shieldstun to begin with. The current state of the meta is a massive testament to this.


you need to understand, characters like Mewtwo or Heavies were FORCED to adopt that playstyle, because the very nature of smash didn't allow them to BE offensive with their frame data, despite them being balanced around it. Smash Bros has always had this problem, and it happened because of a lack of adequate balance between offense and defense.

In every smash game, slow+heavy characters are reliant on patience and reads, while speedy+mobile characters are reliant on pressure. However, the nature of Smash's defense mechanics dont give you any benefits to being slow OR heavy. Your heaviness is quickly offset by the ability to combo you, and slowness means you're likely to just get punished. Smash 4 is actually the first game in the series to empower heavies in a meaningful way (inadvertently through rage) but it its always been an issue. The thing is, Shiek isn't benefiting from this patch by gaining something she didn't already have. Other characters, however, are gaining the ability to actually find benefit in being slow and powerful.

When smash 4 nerfed shieldlag and shieldpush, they almost immediately doomed the meta to be dominated by speedy characters again, because it makes them the only few characters that even have the option of shield pressure.

So what if Sheik is able to pressure your shield now? She was already a dominating force. She already got away with hitting your shield. The thing to take away from this is that now, what sheik cannot do is harass you with Fair and Needles all day, block your approach for free, then punish you for it EVERY time, just because you don't have frames like she does. It is now possible to hit a shield and be safe WITHOUT having next to 0 landing lag.


An easy way to put this is, before today, autocancel/landing lag frames were one of Smash 4's biggest assets, because they were THE defining trait that determined if you were safe or not. After today, Damage is added to the equation. Even if she benefits, out of everyone in the roster, she benefits among the least.


While this isn't going to fix everything, or knock the currently good characters off their throne, it's ultimately a step in the right direction, because its giving characters options where they previously did not have them.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just wondering here... Rage, freshness, and charging would all have big effects on safety on Smash attacks, correct?

 

[Locke 06]

Rage does not factor into shield stun or push as it does not add damage.

 

[LightLV]

Just wondering here... Rage, freshness, and charging would all have big effects on safety on Smash attacks, correct?

Freshness yes (probably?), Charging yes, rage no.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I've been playing smash since the day the first one came out, when I was 9 or 10. I'm not Zero, or someone who makes money off the game religiously winning tournaments. Just someone who loves the series and is a competent player.

I am curious as to how such a drastic change can be implemented in a game that's already been designed and developed around low shield stun. To increase shield stun past melee levels (a game that naturally gave characters more mobility, quicker frame data, and 50% cancelled aerials), in a game that has already been designed to be slower, with less mobility and less options, and no ability to L cancel is making me scratch my head. Reason being, unlike melee where quicker characters mobility and L cancel was universal, a huge chunk of the cast of smash 4 cannot take advantage of these changes.

Wouldn't a lot of work need to be redone to rebalance this accordingly? Wouldn't all this do, is increase viability of the quicker, more mobile and better frame data characters (aka, top and high tiers), increasing the gap between them and the already unviable, bottom half of the cast? It's easy to see where Sheik and Ryu are benefiting, but how about characters like Mewtwo or the heavies, who are losing both offense and defensive options in the form of shielding here?

I just don't see how such a change can be made if the game was not balanced with it in mind. So, I turn to you guys for answers. Am I overstating the importance of this change? Would they not need to do a ton of rebalancing? Am I wrong? If so, why?

Thanks

This is really interesting in some ways. This patch contained yet another change to hitlag mechanics on shield, which makes some projectiles significantly safer to shield after the shieldstun change than they otherwise would be. For example, Mega Man's FSmash has a 0.3x hitlag modifier, which now means you also take 0.3x shield hitlag. It also seems moves with the "stun" attribute (such as Zero Suit Samus's Paralyzer) have an inherent 0.0x hitlag multiplier, so you should now be able to practically shield a paralyzer shot without even stopping. On the other hand, it also makes some projectiles (such as Pikachu's Thunder Jolt) much, much worse.

 

[san.]

This is really interesting in some ways. This patch contained yet another change to hitlag mechanics on shield, which makes some projectiles significantly safer to shield after the shieldstun change than they otherwise would be. For example, Mega Man's FSmash has a 0.3x hitlag modifier, which now means you also take 0.3x shield hitlag. It also seems moves with the "stun" attribute (such as Zero Suit Samus's Paralyzer) have an inherent 0.0x hitlag multiplier, so you should now be able to practically shield a paralyzer shot without even stopping. On the other hand, it also makes some projectiles (such as Pikachu's Thunder Jolt) much, much worse.

Worse on shield or worse to deal with? I just tested jolt vs shield and it feels like I can respond immediately afterwards.