Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Why is it so hard to b reverse certain side b's?

Be specific. Some specials simply can't be b-reversed.

 

[Kaze Arashi]

Be specific. Some specials simply can't be b-reversed.

Some like Toon Link's Boomerang or ZSS Plasma whip

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Some like Toon Link's Boomerang or ZSS Plasma whip

I dunno what to tell you. They are just as difficult to b-reverse as everything else (barring some random exceptions I mention here: https://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-86#post-21766568
https://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-86#post-21767864).
You have up until frame 4 to hit backwards (so long as you are holding back on frame 4). That's the standard so far as I'm aware. Are you aware of any side-specials that seem to have a more lenient window?

 

[BSP]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=653458040

Do we have a way to get in touch with whoever..."runs" this sheet? There are a few cells that are wrong (like Mario and Bayo's dair advantages), and some things that are super misleading (Luma jab being -9 on drop XD).

Luma jab 3 is +2 on drop btw.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=653458040

Do we have a way to get in touch with whoever..."runs" this sheet? There are a few cells that are wrong (like Mario and Bayo's dair advantages), and some things that are super misleading (Luma jab being -9 on drop XD).

Luma jab 3 is +2 on drop btw.

Try Zapp Branniglenn and @LordWilliam1234

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=653458040

Do we have a way to get in touch with whoever..."runs" this sheet? There are a few cells that are wrong (like Mario and Bayo's dair advantages), and some things that are super misleading (Luma jab being -9 on drop XD).

Luma jab 3 is +2 on drop btw.

I didn't do Bayo or Rosalina's sheets, but I would assume people would be confused about Bayonetta's and Mario's Dair due to the landing hitboxes. Any aerial with a landing hitbox is safer on shield because the game reduces its landing lag on hit. Don't ask me why the game does that, I could never lock down a theory even when I was looking at this game years ago. Probably deliberate design, though some attacks are still so slow it doesn't make much of a difference - like Bowser's Dair. The higher "lag" value will tell you what the landing lag is on whiff, but since this is a shield advantage chart, "advantage" assumes the attack has hit.

 

[VeryUncreative]

I have looked in many corners of the internet, but nowhere have I found anything similar to what I have done.
https://youtu.be/vVCULTjkPcg
(sorry for the bad quality)
Lucina ledge canceled a fair into a nair. From my knowledge I know you can ledge cancel some special moves, but I did not realize that aerials could be canceled too in some cases.
I know you don't have much to work on, but I figured I should post this anyway.

(Lucina was at 80% before F-throw, DPit at 29%)

A while back I posted this video to the Lucina boards, but there wasn't much interest on it.
I appreciate any input on this very strange matter, and if you have any questions I can check the replay for more information.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I didn't do Bayo or Rosalina's sheets, but I would assume people would be confused about Bayonetta's and Mario's Dair due to the landing hitboxes. Any aerial with a landing hitbox is safer on shield because the game reduces its landing lag on hit. Don't ask me why the game does that, I could never lock down a theory even when I was looking at this game years ago. Probably deliberate design, though some attacks are still so slow it doesn't make much of a difference - like Bowser's Dair. The higher "lag" value will tell you what the landing lag is on whiff, but since this is a shield advantage chart, "advantage" assumes the attack has hit.

That's just because the shield hitlag is overlapping with the landing lag. I mention it at the bottom in the 'miscellaneous notes' https://smashboards.com/threads/frame-syncing.434603/

I have looked in many corners of the internet, but nowhere have I found anything similar to what I have done.
https://youtu.be/vVCULTjkPcg
(sorry for the bad quality)
Lucina ledge canceled a fair into a nair. From my knowledge I know you can ledge cancel some special moves, but I did not realize that aerials could be canceled too in some cases.
I know you don't have much to work on, but I figured I should post this anyway.

(Lucina was at 80% before F-throw, DPit at 29%)

A while back I posted this video to the Lucina boards, but there wasn't much interest on it.
I appreciate any input on this very strange matter, and if you have any questions I can check the replay for more information.

This is just what happens when you have left over knockback momentum (you were able to cancel hitstun early by attacking out of the medium knockback induced). Holding or not holding a direction during hitstun, during the aerial or during the landing lag won't matter, neither will what aerial you use. In the video example what you did was DI the F-throw away from Dark Pit then you probably held towards Dark Pit and mashed A, resulting in the Fair to Nair (as it will be made a Nair if you input an aerial before you slip off). You will of course still cancel the landing lag by slipping off even if the aerial used hits someone.

 

[VeryUncreative]

You will of course still cancel the landing lag by slipping off even if the aerial used hits someone.

Sorry, I'm still a bit confused. I thought it was impossible to slide off a platform while in landing lag from an aerial, or was it because the knockback caused me to travel faster than her air speed would normally allow, and so I could slide off then?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Sorry, I'm still a bit confused. I thought it was impossible to slide off a platform while in landing lag from an aerial, or was it because the knockback caused me to travel faster than her air speed would normally allow, and so I could slide off then?

I went into it in the rest of the post but, maybe think of it like this. The knockback itself caused you to continue moving and then slip off. If it didn't, if using an aerial and landing near an edge stopped you from being sent back the full amount that the knockback otherwise would have dictated, this would be a form of momentum cancel. Knockback causes a lot of weird things that are otherwise 'impossible' like character specific Dair Stalls and increased height on specials etc.

 

[Kofu]

https://m.twitch.tv/tremendodude/v/177742706?t=4h36m14s&desktop-redirect=true

Anyone know exactly what happened here? It looks like the hitstun but not knockback from Thunder was somehow canceled.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That happens on occasion when a Electric effect hits too close to a wall, sometimes you can see the character who got hit vibrate while performing their action. Maybe you can see more interactions like this with ZSS' videos or something.
I do not know the specifics to it, but it's been there since Brawl.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

https://m.twitch.tv/tremendodude/v/177742706?t=4h36m14s&desktop-redirect=true

Anyone know exactly what happened here? It looks like the hitstun but not knockback from Thunder was somehow canceled.

That happens on occasion when a Electric effect hits too close to a wall, sometimes you can see the character who got hit vibrate while performing their action. Maybe you can see more interactions like this with ZSS' videos or something.
I do not know the specifics to it, but it's been there since Brawl.

(I would have replied sooner but it's becoming increasingly difficult to justify spending so much time doing what I love in an adult world where I haven't been able to afford new shoes in 3 and a half years lol.)

There are two possible things that can happen depending on the circumstances:

1. If hit by an electric attack while in the air with enough knockback to cause a wall bounce, if you collide with a wall during hitlag before the launch (whether by SDIing into the wall during hitlag or by being right up against the wall at the time you were hit), you will bounce off the wall on the same frame that you hit it regardless of whether you should still be in hitlag or simply stuck to the wall, and you can immediately (or at any time after) use any aerial, item throw or airdodge, but nothing else (and you will of course still experience the scaled down knockback of the move following the wall bounce).

2. If all of the above conditions hold true but also if the move leaves you on or over 100% damage and has a launch angle of not greater than 70 degrees, you have a roughly 25-30% chance of being immediately put into the tumble state upon bouncing off the wall and you will be able to immediately (or at any time after) use a double jump, any special move or a z-drop on top of the above options.

If the extra conditions in scenario 2 sound familiar to you, it's because they are the exact same conditions required to cause the untechable reel animation. https://smashboards.com/threads/untechable-reel-animations.439039/
The two are connected, and I believe that the scenarios where you go into tumble upon hitting the wall (and are allowed to do any option) are scenarios in which had you not hit the wall and simply been launched normally, you would have entered the untechable reel animation (which as you may recall from my most recent post in that thread, puts you into tumble immediately following hitstun, i.e. much earlier than normal).

In the vid you linked, Shulk got hit out of his up-b by Pika's thunder bolt (which has a launch angle of 70 degrees so it's good) which left Shulk on greater than 100% (also good), he was lucky enough to get the 'would have been an untechable reel' hit which caused the immediate tumble after the wall bounce, he was still holding up on the joystick when he hit special to do what he had intended to be the second swing of shulk's up-b, and this got turned into a second and entirely separate up-b.

 

[BSP]

If diddy inputs his double jump and airdodge on the same exact frame, will he become intangible on F2 or F3?

While I'm at it, what's the buffer priority list again?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

If diddy inputs his double jump and airdodge on the same exact frame, will he become intangible on F2 or F3?

While I'm at it, what's the buffer priority list again?

https://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-15#post-18280108
If you input them on the same frame, you won't DJ, you'll only airdodge, so yeah you'd be intangible on frame 2. If instead you DJ and airoddge on the following frame you'd be intangible on frame 3, but note that this is going to be unrealistically difficult if you're trying to do it frame perfectly out of hitstun (which is what I assume this is in relation to). Assuming you definitely want to avoid having your airdodge input overriding the DJ, allow for a few frames extra in practice.

 

[BSP]

https://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-15#post-18280108
If you input them on the same frame, you won't DJ, you'll only airdodge, so yeah you'd be intangible on frame 2. If instead you DJ and airoddge on the following frame you'd be intangible on frame 3, but note that this is going to be unrealistically difficult if you're trying to do it frame perfectly out of hitstun (which is what I assume this is in relation to). Assuming you definitely want to avoid having your airdodge input overriding the DJ, allow for a few frames extra in practice.

Good guess. I'm labbing optimal Mario combos (20MM let's goooo) and ran into a situation where Diddy had 2 frames to do something before Utilt smacked him. I needed to make sure he couldn't jump and start an airdodge on the same frame, and the next best thing is basically a 1 frame link that still gets Diddy hit in my case.
(if he just airdodges, he goes into the ground and gets hit by my Utilt anyway )

If I ever win something major, I feel obligated to give you a shoutout in some way, shape, or form at this point XD.

Edit: Does anyone know how many frames a frame perfect RAR takes? Or how many frames you must spend dashing before you can turn around for the reverse aerial?

 

[Koopslight]

Hi, i am interested to know if there are certain situations where you cant do DI. Like for example, stunned during a not-teched collide against a wall.
If so, i would like to know if there are a list of that situations.
Thanks

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yo Fox Is Openly Deceptive , is there a list of rules/conditions needed to be met for a jablock to happen?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

not that I'm aware of, but if I was to make one..

1. The opponent either lands directly out of tumble or they miss a tech for whatever reason.
2. You then have until frame 27 which is when they can act (i.e. a 26 frame window) to hit them with a move that will not lift them off the ground for even a frame (sakurai angles will of course start to hit higher as they hit harder, but any move that achieves this through low knockback and the right angle works fine, e.g. even some spikes at low percents. Be careful of moves with more than one angled hitbox, e.g. Mario's Jab).
3. You then have until frame 39 which is when they will be forced to get up and will gain invulnerability (i.e. a 38 frame window) to once again hit them if you want to lock again or simply want to finish and don't want to wait out the forced standing up animation.
4. You may repeat no.3 one more time. Attempting to lock a fourth time will not make the opponent go into the flop animation and it will be as though they got hit by the move under normal conditions.

Something like that?

 

[Kofu]

Anyone know what happened here? https://youtu.be/ZsgtXINrIwY?t=3m17s
It looks like the same effect as teching Cloud's FAir while grounded but there's no tech animation and Corrin falls through the platform. Is it related to the instant meteor tech (or whatever it's called) where you SDI a meteor up and can act sooner out of it?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ruben already answered that one.
https://twitter.com/Ruben_dal/status/936107830616186880
But to add to that, it's a 1 frame thing, this will only happen if the spike connects with the 5th frame of the ledge drop and of course you still need to tech it.
I believe you're right (I had the same thoughts), and that this is mechanically the same thing as SDIing grounded spikes up then teching, as they both involve a ground to air transition, they both cancel the tech itself because of the airborne state, and they both leave you in the air able to act immediately.

 

[Kofu]

I was curious if it had to do with the ledge drop animation too. Thanks!

 

[Mefasto]

Do you think that when I play singles I can learn to play well online?
For the most interesting people we draw from among players, some can play much better thanks to currency and Incursion League. The eternal right of the conqueror is to set new goals and sell cheap poe orbs for better and more worth currency.
Path of Exile is a game so great that sometimes I dream, and when I wake up - then it takes my breath away. There are days better and worse, there are items and there is currency, but you can always buy the Path of Exile Currency https://odealo.com/games/path-of-exile

 

[BSP]

Does getting hit interfere with dropping through platforms in any way? IE you get hit by some light attack that doesn't put you into tumble, then you immediately try to drop through a platform.

Edit: no it doesn't, but apparently you can't buffer platform drops. If you try to out of hitstun, you'll get a crouch which makes it seem like you're stuck on the platform.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Does getting hit interfere with dropping through platforms in any way? IE you get hit by some light attack that doesn't put you into tumble, then you immediately try to drop through a platform.

Edit: no it doesn't, but apparently you can't buffer platform drops. If you try to out of hitstun, you'll get a crouch which makes it seem like you're stuck on the platform.

That's true, but what you might have experienced was getting hit by a light attack that slightly lifted you off the ground due to its launch angle, which would then count as you landing on the platform, and landing on platforms does restrict you from immediately dropping through them directly.

I've done some initial tests before, and while this could differ a bit between characters, to give you an idea, out of a soft landing Mario had to wait until frame 16 of landing to input the platform drop to avoid getting a crouch, and out of a hard landing he had to wait all the way up until frame 31 of landing.
Note at this point that if you get hit by a small attack and barely get hit off the ground, you'll be experiencing the hard landing.

There are ways around this of course. You can either hold shield and buffer/do a platform drop OoS, or, and this is the one I recommend, you can simply turn around and fall through on or after the following frame (i.e. what would have been frame 2 of the turn around). The turn around can even be buffered with a quick flick of the control stick (which won't get turned into a dash backwards), leaving you free to input the platform drop at the right time. The same trick can of course be applied to any 'landing on platform' situation, not just after being hit, which opens up some great platform pressure possibilities.

 

[BSP]

If two moves that would apply different shield stuns hit your shield at the same time, what happens? Do you take the lesser blockstun? Greater? Combination of both?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

If two moves with different shield hitlag/stun hit a shield on the same frame, the move that does the most shield hitlag/stun will take priority and the shielder will experience the same amount of shield hitlag/stun as they would normally experience when hit by that move.
If a stronger attack hits the shield first then the weaker attack hits the shield during shield hitlag, the shielder will experience shield hitlag/stun from the weaker attack from the frame that the weaker attack hits plus one additional frame of shield hitstun.
If a stronger attack hits the shield first then the weaker attack hits the shield during shield hitstun, the shielder will experience shield hitlag/stun from the weaker attack from the frame that the weaker attack hits.

 

[Kofu]

This is probably a dumb question but I thought that initiating a down air with the smash stick would cause the character to fastfall while doing it (after the apex of the jump, obviously). This didn't seem to he the case from messing around with Marth's DAir, though. Was I remembering wrong, messing up the inputs, or could this be a character-specific mechanic?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

If you input a smash Dair with the joystick or smash-stick on the frame before the first possible frame that you're able to FF, and you hold the downwards input for longer than a frame, you will FF the Dair on the first possible FF frame (i.e. the following frame).

When you use an aerial to cancel a FF, you still get returned to your maximum fall speed, and if you're doing this at around the apex of a jump just as you start to fall this can make it appear like you didn't really cancel the FF at all even though you did.
However I'm not suggesting that you are FFing then doing an aerial.
The reason why I'm mentioning this is because when you input a smash Dair with the joystick or smash-stick at any time from the first frame you're able to FF, it effectively FFs and cancels the FF on the same frame (you won't see a FF spark of course), meaning that you will immediately start falling at your maximum fall speed.

Now as for your more specific question, I checked the above and it all applies to Marth too.

tl;dr just use the tilt-stick.

 

[Kofu]

If you input a smash Dair with the joystick or smash-stick on the frame before the first possible frame that you're able to FF, and you hold the downwards input for longer than a frame, you will FF the Dair on the first possible FF frame (i.e. the following frame).

When you use an aerial to cancel a FF, you still get returned to your maximum fall speed, and if you're doing this at around the apex of a jump just as you start to fall this can make it appear like you didn't really cancel the FF at all even though you did.
However I'm not suggesting that you are FFing then doing an aerial.
The reason why I'm mentioning this is because when you input a smash Dair with the joystick or smash-stick at any time from the first frame you're able to FF, it effectively FFs and cancels the FF on the same frame (you won't see a FF spark of course), meaning that you will immediately start falling at your maximum fall speed.

Now as for your more specific question, I checked the above and it all applies to Marth too.

tl;dr just use the tilt-stick.

So what I'm understanding is that it doesn't cause you to fastfall, but instead sets your standard fall speed to maximum, correct?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So what I'm understanding is that it doesn't cause you to fastfall, but instead sets your standard fall speed to maximum, correct?

In the second example, the first being a one frame thing, yes. Add to this whole situation the shiny sparks coming from some of the dairs themselves and you can see where the confusion comes from.

 

[Spektatr]

Very new to smash boards, haven't posted in over a year. Thanks for having this thread.

Is there a link to any existing guides/charts on SDI in smash 4?
I'm looking for a comprehensive guide on how certain characters are supposed to SDI out of moves.
I'm looking for everything. From floats to fast fallers, from rye's up tilts, bayo's spin combos and greninja's up air etc.

Thanks.

 

[BSP]

I've been using Ruben's calculator (http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/) pretty extensively to lab combos, but I've run into an odd situation.

The calculator tells me Mario should enter tumble from his own Fthrow at 13%, but in game he went into tumble at ~10%.

My first though was that maybe something's bugging out on the calculator, so I tried testing its hit advantage prediction using Mario's Utilt. That test followed the calculator's predicted outcome.

Did we get ninja patched?

Edit: Issue solved. The KBG for Mario's Fthrow is actually 65 and not 60, which causes the discrepancy in the predicted tumble %.

 

[san.]

I have two questions.

1
On the calculator at http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/
When it lists the frame advantage for autocancelled aerials, do you have to account for soft landing lag?

2
I understand DI in and away, but my knowledge of DI up and down is incredibly low. Is there a general guideline when one should DI up or down (or even the complex diagonal direction)? What angle does DI up/down account for? Does that include the Sakurai angle?

Don't think too much of the general guideline part, it is knowingly quite vague.

 

[Vipermoon]

I have two questions.

1
On the calculator at http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/
When it lists the frame advantage for autocancelled aerials, do you have to account for soft landing lag?

2
I understand DI in and away, but my knowledge of DI up and down is incredibly low. Is there a general guideline when one should DI up or down (or even the complex diagonal direction)? What angle does DI up/down account for? Does that include the Sakurai angle?

Don't think too much of the general guideline part, it is knowingly quite vague.

Autocancelling always applies hard landing lag to the character (usually, but not always, 4 frames). I sure hope that calculator is applying the correct number for each character.

IIRC, up and down DI come into play below something like 67° and below. When you should DI down, which does reduce knockback, depends on where you are on stage when you get hit. If DI'ing sideways means you'll die off the top; obviously you'd DI down instead. DI up is rare since it increases knockback. Use it in the opposite situation when you're near the ledge and for recovery purposes, upwards DI will help you get back on stage despite the knockback increase. You have to feel that one out; it doesn't always help.

Edit: okay, so it's for angles below 65°; don't want to spread wrong info

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yes it does take into account the hard landing lag dw. So as long as you're aware that it's talking about shield advantage vs OoS options and you know when you're supposed to be imputing the aerials to land on the autocancel frame, you'll be alright.

As for the second question, this is a good read https://ssbworld.com/blog/27/launch-speed-influence

 

[san.]

I read that a while ago, but I was clearly not paying attention. Perfect, thanks to the both of you =)

 

[DanGR]

Autocancelling always applies hard landing lag to the character (usually, but not always, 4 frames).

So lunar-landing always incurs 4f of landing lag? :[

 

[Lavani]

So lunar-landing always incurs 4f of landing lag? :[

Correct.