Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[JamietheAuraUser]

Worse on shield or worse to deal with? I just tested jolt vs shield and it feels like I can respond immediately afterwards.

Very strange, then. Not sure what's up with that? Seems like it should be worse to deal with since electric attacks have an inherent 1.5x hitlag multiplier. Unless you're referring to Thunder Wave, which if any of this is at all correct should behave about the same as Zero Suit Samus's DSmash (absolutely no shield hitlag whatsoever).

 

[Ulevo]

That's for blockstun, not block-freeze (which is another word for hitlag).

The former affected the blocker, the latter affecting the attacker?

 

[Ulevo]

Being hit on frames 1-4 = powershield, while being hit on frames 5-11 increases shield drop lag. Getting hit on frame 5 = 7 frames of extra lag on shield drop and getting hit on frame 11 = 1 extra frame of lag on shield drop.

So this essentially means that there are variable amounts of frame advantage on shield for the same attack based on whether or not the opponent is dropping their shield, and when, during that shield drop, the attack hit the shield?

So for instance, Meta Knight's down tilt has 4 frames of shield stun. If I hit an opponent who is shielding and holding the shield button, and they decide to drop their shield during the hit lag of the down tilt on the shield, they will incur the 4 frames + 7 frames of shield drop? And if they are letting go of the shield and I hit them on say, frame 9 of the shield drop, they will incur 4 frames + 2 frames of shield drop? Is this right?

 

[Wintropy]

Can somebody explain the effect that the new shield mechanics have on electric-type moves' hitstun?

I've heard some chatter about it, but I can't find anything definitive.

 

[Shaya]

So this essentially means that there are variable amounts of frame advantage on shield for the same attack based on whether or not the opponent is dropping their shield, and when, during that shield drop, the attack hit the shield?

So for instance, Meta Knight's down tilt has 4 frames of shield stun. If I hit an opponent who is shielding and holding the shield button, and they decide to drop their shield during the hit lag of the down tilt on the shield, they will incur the 4 frames + 7 frames of shield drop? And if they are letting go of the shield and I hit them on say, frame 9 of the shield drop, they will incur 4 frames + 2 frames of shield drop? Is this right?

Before it's 4 frames of shield stun would occur, and if you hit them on frame 5 of their shield, they'd be locked for an extra 6 frames.

Now shield stun and shield lock frames overlap, so MK dtilt would be higher shield stun now and be taking up the majority of the 6 frames of shield lock you can receive.

Can somebody explain the effect that the new shield mechanics have on electric-type moves' hitstun?

I've heard some chatter about it, but I can't find anything definitive.

It was an additive 0.5x hit lag modifier on moves with electric attributes. Now that hit lag is matched on defender and receiver, those moves have that 0.5x difference neutralized.

 

[Wintropy]

It was an additive 0.5x hit lag modifier on moves with electric modifiers. Now that hit lag is matched on defender and receiver, those moves have that 0.5x difference neutralized.

Thanks, very concise response! :3

 

[Ulevo]

Before it's 4 frames of shield stun would occur, and if you hit them on frame 5 of their shield, they'd be locked for an extra 6 frames.

Now shield stun and shield lock frames overlap, so MK dtilt would be higher shield stun now and be taking up the majority of the 6 frames of shield lock you can receive.

So this essentially means that if you hit someone on frame 5 of their shield, they will always incur a minimum of 6 frames of being stuck in their shield, even if the shield stun is less than 6 frames? And anything greater than 6 frames just takes the place of the shield lock frames? i.e. Hitting with a move that has 8 frames of shield stun on frame 5 of the shield will still just do an extra 8 frames?

Does this also mean that it is worse to have your shield hit later rather than sooner? i.e. hitting someone on frame 8 of their shield is worse than frame 5? Also, I thought it was 7 frames of shield lock, because you count the actual frame, thus 5-11 is 7 frames?

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

This is confusing as **** can someone explain this in more simple way?

Like hitting a shield sooner rather than later will do x instead of x?

 

[Jams.]

Very strange, then. Not sure what's up with that? Seems like it should be worse to deal with since electric attacks have an inherent 1.5x hitlag multiplier. Unless you're referring to Thunder Wave, which if any of this is at all correct should behave about the same as Zero Suit Samus's DSmash (absolutely no shield hitlag whatsoever).

Based on this source, Pikachu's Thunder Jolt has a 0.3 hitlag modifier along with its electric element, giving it a total hitlag modifier of 0.8. This means it's actually negatively impacted by these changes. I realize the source is for a pretty outdated patch, but I doubt these values have changed.

If people are still testing projectiles for positive effects, Sheik's Penetrating Needles have a 1.6 total hitlag modifier (1.1 + electric). I'd like to know whether projectiles were also affected by this shield hitlag change, or if something weird happened like projectile shieldlag being removed altogether for the defender.

 

[Shaya]

Projectiles are acting out within normal shield lag or stun rules.

So things with sub 1.0 modifiers are less safe than before, but those above 1.0 are safer.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Based on this source, Pikachu's Thunder Jolt has a 0.3 hitlag modifier along with its electric element, giving it a total hitlag modifier of 0.8. This means it's actually negatively impacted by these changes. I realize the source is for a pretty outdated patch, but I doubt these values have changed..

Huh, that's surprisingly insightful on the developers' part.

 

[Locke 06]

Based on this source, Pikachu's Thunder Jolt has a 0.3 hitlag modifier along with its electric element, giving it a total hitlag modifier of 0.8. This means it's actually negatively impacted by these changes. I realize the source is for a pretty outdated patch, but I doubt these values have changed.

If people are still testing projectiles for positive effects, Sheik's Penetrating Needles have a 1.6 total hitlag modifier (1.1 + electric). I'd like to know whether projectiles were also affected by this shield hitlag change, or if something weird happened like projectile shieldlag being removed altogether for the defender.

I was under the impression that electricity multiplied hitlag and was not additive.

For instance, if hitlag was 10 with a modified of .3 and was electric, it would be 10 x .3 X 1.5 and not 10 X (.3+.5).

Clarification please.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I was under the impression that electricity multiplied hitlag and was not additive.

For instance, if hitlag was 10 with a modified of .3 and was electric, it would be 10 x .3 X 1.5 and not 10 X (.3+.5).

Clarification please.

Apparently electric attacks have an additive +0.5x hitlag modifier.

 

[Shaya]

I was under the impression that electricity multiplied hitlag and was not additive.

For instance, if hitlag was 10 with a modified of .3 and was electric, it would be 10 x .3 X 1.5 and not 10 X (.3+.5).

Clarification please.

I thought it might've been multiplicative, and I do admit not personally testing, but it just did NOT make sense for it to be multiplicative before now.
Pikachu had a move with 2.2 hit lag modifiers that was electric. Multiplicative made the disadvantage something bizarre like 15 frames WORSE than additive when it was already 7 frames less safe on shield than if had it no modifiers at all.

 

[Locke 06]

I thought it might've been multiplicative, and I do admit not personally testing, but it just did NOT make sense for it to be multiplicative before now.
Pikachu had a move with 2.2 hit lag modifiers that was electric. Multiplicative made the disadvantage something bizarre like 15 frames WORSE than additive when it was already 7 frames less safe on shield than if had it no modifiers at all.

FAir (I assume that is what you're talking about) WAS hilariously unsafe though.

I agree that additive makes more sense, but lol smash 4 developers.

Edit: pre-patch self hitlag on shield reduction. Still there or no? Then go to sleep.

 

[Shaya]

I'm under the impression it isn't? If it is I'm going to be very annoyed lol.

Fair Hit Lag multiplicative: 20
Fair hit lag additive: 16


Pre-patch self hit lag on shield
multiplicative: 16
additive: 13

I'm misremembering how much of a difference it made or I'm thinking of some other anecdote I can't recall right now. ughh i hate shields.

 

[Locke 06]

ughh i hate shields.

Classic ZSS.

I'll test pre patch and post patch when I get home tonight. 3ds hasn't been updated yet.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I'm under the impression it isn't? If it is I'm going to be very annoyed lol.

Fair Hit Lag multiplicative: 20
Fair hit lag additive: 16


Pre-patch self hit lag on shield
multiplicative: 16
additive: 13

I'm misremembering how much of a difference it made or I'm thinking of some other anecdote I can't recall right now. ughh i hate shields.

The division was by 1.25, to a minimum of 1.0x.

 

[⑨ball]

Something interesting I've taken note of, though I'm not sure what causes it.

In previous patches, you could perfect shield Ryu's red hadouken and it would force you to perfect shield all of the hits, now, if you drop shield after the first contact you get hit by the rest.

I'm guessing this is due to a change in hitlag, but I never experienced this with any other multihit moves.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Something interesting I've taken note of, though I'm not sure what causes it.

In previous patches, you could perfect shield Ryu's red hadouken and it would force you to perfect shield all of the hits, now, if you drop shield after the first contact you get hit by the rest.

I'm guessing this is due to a change in hitlag, but I never experienced this with any other multihit moves.

Yeah, it's due to a change in hitlag. If I remember correctly, Shakunetsu Hadouken has 0.0x hitlag multiplier on all hits but the last one, which didn't affect shields prior to the patch but now does.

 

[Big O]

So this essentially means that there are variable amounts of frame advantage on shield for the same attack based on whether or not the opponent is dropping their shield, and when, during that shield drop, the attack hit the shield?

So for instance, Meta Knight's down tilt has 4 frames of shield stun. If I hit an opponent who is shielding and holding the shield button, and they decide to drop their shield during the hit lag of the down tilt on the shield, they will incur the 4 frames + 7 frames of shield drop? And if they are letting go of the shield and I hit them on say, frame 9 of the shield drop, they will incur 4 frames + 2 frames of shield drop? Is this right?

In your scenario it would have been 4 frames shieldstun + 3 frames of leftover minimum shield duration + 7 frames shield drop lag. Since 1.1.1, this is no longer the case and minimum shield duration overlaps with shieldstun now, so for most moves there isn't really going to be a penalty for mistiming a powershield (besides not getting powershields).

Another thing I noticed changing is that the powershield window is back to 3 frames for w/e reason lol. Funny how everyone says it's 3 frames for like a year, people finally start catching on to the truth, and now it really is 3 frames.

 

[Locke 06]

Welcome to Locke's night of shield experiments.

Using Foxy's frame skip method, Pikachu, and Mega Man holding a metal blade. (Omega Wii Fit Studio. It's a nice stage)

Questions we set out to answer:
- It the electricity multiplier additive to hitlag multipliers (+0.5) or is it multiplicative?
- Is the 1.1.0 hitlag on shield reduction still in affect?
- What is different from 1.1.0 to 1.1.1 in terms of hitlag?

FAir on hit - version difference test and electricity multiplier
Wii U 1.1.1: FAir hits on 26, opponent moves on 46.
3DS 1.0.8: FAir hits on 26, opponent moves on 46.

FAir on shield - shield vs hit
Wii U 1.1.1: FAir hits on 26, opponent moves on 46. (from above)
Wii U 1.1.1 on powershield (f2): FAir hits on 26, Pikachu moves on 42(!!!), drops shield 45.
Wii U 1.1.1 on late shield (>f12): FAir hits on 26, Pikachu and opponent move 42, drop shield 45(!).

Usmash on shield - powershield testing a high damage move
On powershield (f2): Usmash hits on 10, Pikachu moves on 20, drops shield on 26.
On late shield (>f12): Usmash hits on 10, Pikachu and opponent move on 20, drop shield on 30.

Usmash on shield - early shield vs late shield
On late shield (>f12): Usmash hits on 10, Pikachu and opponent move on 20, drop shield on 30.
On early shield (f4): Usmash hits on 10, Pikachu and opponent move on 20, drop shield on 30.

Jab on shield - early shield vs late shield
On early shield (f4): Jab hits on 4, Pikachu and opponent move on 9, shield drop on 15.
On later shield (f8): Jab hits on 8, Pikachu and opponent move on 13, shield drop on 15.

Usmash on hit - hitlag test between version & hitlag check vs on shield for non-electric move.
Wii U 1.1.1 on late shield (>f12): Usmash hits on 10, opponent moves on 20. (from above)
Wii U 1.1.1: Usmash hits on 10, opponent moves on 20.
3DS 1.0.8: Usmash hits on 10, opponent moves on 20.

Assumption:
- On powershield, opponent exits hitlag with attacker. Due to a lack of shield pushback, I found it ambiguous when exactly the opponent exited hitlag.
- The 1.1.0 hitlag reduction functions the same with a 1x hitlag modifier floor and 20% reduction.
- Tests ran on 3DS 1.0.8 would act the same as if they were ran on Wii U 1.1.0.

Conclusions:
1. Electricity multiplies the hitstun by 1.5x and does not add 0.5 to whatever hitstun multiplier is present, as the 20 frames of hitlag matches calculations by Shaya . This was true in 1.0.8 as well (and likely in 1.1.0).
2. The hitlag on shield decrease from 1.1.0 is still in, but it has been modified to affect the opponent as well so hitlags match.
3. Hitlag for non-electric/modified moves is the same between versions, on hit, on shield (early and late), and on powershield.
4. For a 3% move, the difference in shield stun (3 frames, 42-44) on a perfect shield is non-existent.
5. For a 13% move, the difference in shield stun (9 frames, 20-29) on a perfect shield (5 frames, 20-25) is 4 frames.
(6. Shield stun frames overlap with shield lock frames, which still exist. Already found, but retested.)


Edit note: When I say Pikachu or the opponent moves, that's moving out of hitlag. Pikachu is not free to act, but he/(she?) is free to progress toward cooldown of his/(her?) attack. @Reserved asked the good question.

Edit 2: Totally willing to take questions. I tried to make it as clean and easy to understand as possible, so that people do not misunderstand/spread false information.

 

[Pazx]

DOUBLE EDIT: BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE (this list is INCOMPLETE)

I feel as though this is the best place to put my findings regarding glitch where Diddy becomes invulnerable to grabs.

When he is in this state, he is invulnerable to ALL grabs including command grabs. He exits this state immediately if his opponent hits his shield, or if he dies and respawns. If there is a third player, they will be able to grab Diddy so the glitch only pertains to the character who triggers the glitch on Diddy. If the character who triggered the glitch dies and respawns they will still be unable to grab Diddy.

What triggers the glitch? Certain moves hitting Diddy's shield and then immediately hitting Diddy afterwards. The most obvious example is rapid jabs, if Diddy shields a hit of a rapid jab and then is hit by a subsequent hit (IMPORTANT NOTE: some moves require Diddy to perform an OoS option to get hit [eg. grabbing or jumping] due to the changes to shield stun. Shield pokes also work.) he will be unaffected by all grabs. It's not just rapid jabs, my theory is that it is some (but not all) quick or multi hitting moves that trigger this stage. A move must either be very quick or be the same instance of the initial move (ie. a move with multiple hitboxes, one being shielded and then the second hitting), the only exception I've found so far is Ness's dair.


Shielding one or more hits of rapid jab before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch
Shielding one or more hits of uair, nair, fair, utilt, usmash, fsmash before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch.
Shielding jab 1 before getting hit by jab 2 does not trigger this glitch.
Shielding jab 2 before getting hit by jab 3 OR rapid jab does not trigger this glitch.


Shielding one or more hits of boost kick before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch.
Jab never triggers this glitch.


Shielding one or more hits of rapid jab, fair, bair, tornado, ftilt, drill rush before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch.
No notable exceptions.


Shielding one or more hits of rapid jab before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch.
Shielding jab 1 before getting hit by jab 2 does not trigger this glitch.
Shielding jab 2 before getting hit by jab 3 OR rapid jab does not trigger this glitch.
Shielding one hit of neutral air before getting hit by the same move does not trigger this glitch.


Shielding one or more hits of rapid jab, dair, fair before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch.
(I can't remember but I don't think either jab 1 -> jab 2 or jab 2 -> rapid trigger the glitch, sorry)


Shielding jab 1 before getting hit by jab 2 triggers the glitch.
Shielding nair 1 before getting hit by nair 2 does not trigger this glitch.


Shielding jab 1 before getting hit by jab 2 triggers the glitch.
Shielding bair 1 before getting hit by bair 2 does not trigger this glitch (I forgot to test fair, sorry).
Shielding fsmash 1 before getting hit by fsmash 2 does not trigger this glitch.


Shielding one or more hits of fair, dash attack before getting hit by the same move triggers the glitch.
Shielding jab 2 before getting hit by jab 3 triggers the glitch.
Shielding dtilt before getting hit by dtilt triggers the glitch. <---- this is the only example of a move being repeated and still triggering the glitch.

If Diddy is in the glitched state, shielding PK fire (from Ness) will cause him to go back to normal. However, shielding the PK fire pillar does not affect the state he is in at all, even if he shields all of the hits. This is probably something to do with the ownership of projectiles but I'm not sure. There may be other projectiles like this, bombs bouncing off Diddy's shield for instance has 0 effect but if Link throws the bomb into the ground and the explosion damages Diddy's shield he leaves the glitched state. I didn't test what happens if Diddy hurts his shield with a bomb he's thrown/holding but I'd imagine it doesn't affect it.


Shielding one or more hits of bair, dair before getting hit by the same move triggers the glitch.
Shielding jab 1 before getting hit by jab 2 triggers the glitch.
Shielding jab 2 before getting hit by jab 1 does not trigger the glitch.

I'm struggling to see any concrete pattern.

Edit: added PK Fire information.

 

[[Deuce]]

So the difference between projectiles and non-projectiles when it comes to hitlag is that with non-projectiles (ex. aerials), the user and the person hit with the move both experience freeze frames, whereas for projectiles this interaction occurs between the person hit and the projectile itself, ie the user experiences no freeze frames?

Secondly, hitlag modifiers for projectiles: I know they've been "normalized" between attacker and defender but what does that mean? Is it that in previous patches the attacking object with a modifier =/= 1.0x could potentially experience more or less freeze frames than the defender whose modifier = 1.0x, which could be exploited? And so now they changed it so that the defender's modifier matches that of the specific attack, which poses pseudo nerfs/buffs to those moves because they cause the defender to experience different hitlag relative to before?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

So the difference between projectiles and non-projectiles when it comes to hitlag is that with non-projectiles (ex. aerials), the user and the person hit with the move both experience freeze frames, whereas for projectiles this interaction occurs between the person hit and the projectile itself, ie the user experiences no freeze frames?

This is correct, except that the projectile often despawns on hitbox connect so the projectile often isn't seen to be in hitlag.

Secondly, hitlag modifiers for projectiles: I know they've been "normalized" between attacker and defender but what does that mean? Is it that in previous patches the attacking object with a modifier =/= 1.0x could potentially experience more or less freeze frames than the defender whose modifier = 1.0x, which could be exploited? And so now they changed it so that the defender's modifier matches that of the specific attack, which poses pseudo nerfs/buffs to those moves because they cause the defender to experience different hitlag relative to before?

Yes, that's exactly it, a shielding defender's modifier used to always be 1.0x regardless of the hitlag modifier the attacking object/character experienced.

 

[DanGR]

Yes, that's exactly it, a shielding defender's modifier used to always be 1.0x regardless of the hitlag modifier the attacking object/character experienced.

Doesn't Lavani 's findings go against this?

 

[[Deuce]]

This is correct, except that the projectile often despawns on hitbox connect so the projectile often isn't seen to be in hitlag.


Yes, that's exactly it, a shielding defender's modifier used to always be 1.0x regardless of the hitlag modifier the attacking object/character experienced.

Nice. A follow up to this is how does hitlag interact with shield stun and shield lock? Are they synonymous or independent of each other? Or do they happen concurrently ie. the hitlag effectively eats some of the waiting time before shield can be dropped?

 

[Lavani]

Doesn't Lavani 's findings go against this?

Key words there are "used to".

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Nice. A follow up to this is how does hitlag interact with shield stun and shield lock? Are they synonymous or independent of each other? Or do they happen concurrently ie. the hitlag effectively eats some of the waiting time before shield can be dropped?

Shield stun now eats waiting time before shield drop, so only really weak attacks will ever actually cause shield lock now. Shield stun and shield hitlag are independent of each other, with shield hitlag happening first (thus meaning hitlag frames also happen before shield lock frames).

 

[DanGR]

Thanks.

But didn't this patch just change shield hitlag mechanics? So that 1.25 divider thing goes out the window and the shielded suffers the same hitlag as the attacker?

That's what I thought before, but when looking at Luma hitlag on shield tonight I learned the 1.25 divider is still there. Both sides suffer the same hitlag when projectiles aren't involved though, yes.

I'm confused because this quote seems to me to imply that when projectiles are involved, both sides don't suffer the same hitlag. I understand that the hitlag modifier is divided by 1.25 if the modifier exceeds 1 (with a ceiling of 1), but does the defender have the same hitlag as a result, after the division by 1.25? (both on hit and on block?) For example, Luma has 7 hitlag during dtilt. Does the defender have that much as well?

 

[Lavani]

I'm confused because this quote seems to me to imply that when projectiles are involved, both sides don't suffer the same hitlag. I understand that the hitlag modifier is divided by 1.25 if the modifier exceeds 1 (with a ceiling of 1), but does the defender have the same hitlag as a result, after the division by 1.25? (both on hit and on block?) For example, Luma has 7 hitlag during dtilt. Does the defender have that much as well?

That was poor wording on my part because 5:30am + fried brain from looking at numbers all night. What I meant was the attacker wouldn't suffer hitlag with projectiles, not that the modifier wouldn't come into play.

For example, Luma has 7 hitlag during dtilt. Does the defender have that much as well?

This is correct.

 

[[Deuce]]

Shield stun now eats waiting time before shield drop, so only really weak attacks will ever actually cause shield lock now. Shield stun and shield hitlag are independent of each other, with shield hitlag happening first (thus meaning hitlag frames also happen before shield lock frames).

So in the case of very weak attacks, both shield hitlag and shieldstun consume shieldlock frames?

And so the timeline would go as follows upon impact: ->hitlag->shieldstun->remaining shieldlock (if any)?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

So in the case of very weak attacks, both shield hitlag and shieldstun consume shieldlock frames?

And so the timeline would go as follows upon impact: ->hitlag->shieldstun->remaining shieldlock (if any)?

Hitlag does not consume shieldlock frames because the opponent is effectively frozen in their current frame of animation. In technical terms, shield duration is not progressing because their GuardOn animation is not progressing. GuardOn has to complete for the character to enter either their Guard or GuardOff animations.

(Though the GuardDamage animation seems to transition seamlessly back and forth even during GuardOn with total animation time for GuardOn still progressing, from what my experimentation with Brawl modding suggests. Not sure how that works. If I had to guess, what was happening prior to v1.1.1 in Smash 4 was that GuardOn animation transitioned to GuardDamage when the shield was hit, then when GuardDamage ended GuardOn resumed on the frame it left off.)

Anyway, as a result, the timeline looks more like:

-> hitlag -> shieldstun -> able to drop shield
          -> shieldlock

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Alright, it looks like it's being discussed here. I'm interested in the frame you get hit on, and how that counts toward shield lock frames.

So, for the sake of this example, let's use (or make up) a move that has no shield stun or shield hitlag. If you get hit on frame 4 of your shield, will you get out of shield lock frames after the 11th frame, or the 12th frame? I.E. - which progression does this match:

1, 2, 3, [hit], 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, [free to shield drop] = 12 frames total wait time

or

1, 2, 3, [hit] + 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 [free to shield drop] = 11 frames total wait time

I think this distinction is important, since there is a buffering system in this game. If you crunch the numbers and determine a move can respond OoS if and only if it's frame perfect... the frame better be counted right. This could produce off-by-one errors if not understood correctly.

Anyone know the answer to this counting issue?

 

[Ulevo]

Here's the math to figure it out.

If your move has 8 frames of shield stun or less for grounded moves,

1: http://kuroganehammer.com/
2: Find your character and move.
3: Take the FAF of the last hitbox and -1. This will be X.
4. Take the frame the hitbox comes out on. This will be Y.
5. Find out the amount of shield stun the move has by using Shaya's formula x/1.75+2. This will be R.

If you want to know the frame advantage if you hit the opponent on frame 4 of their shield, X-Y-15.

If you want to know the frame advantage if you hit the opponent on frame 11 of their shield, if they kept holding shield, or if the shield stun is more than 9 frames, X-Y-R-7.

If you want to find out the shield advantage for aerial moves that stay in the air, follow the same principle as above.

If you want to find out the shield advantage for aerial moves that land after hitting the shield,

1: http://kuroganehammer.com/
2: Find your character and move.
3: Take the landing lag of the move, and +1. This will be A.
4. Find out the amount of shield stun the move has by using Shaya's formula x/1.75+2. This will be R.

If you want to know the frame advantage if you hit the opponent on frame 4 of their shield, A-15.

If you want to know the frame advantage if you hit the opponent on frame 11 of their shield, if they kept holding shield, or if the shield stun is more than 9 frames, A-R-7.

Note that A assumes that you are hitting the opponent with the hit box on the latest possible frame before incurring your landing lag, hence the +1.

 

[AnchorTea]

Is it known that holding down the R-stick prevents tap jumps?

Also I know this isnt the advice thread, but wouldn't this count as a tech?

 

[Ghostbone]

Holding c-stick prevents any control stick inputs from working when it's set to smash.

 

[AnchorTea]

Holding c-stick prevents any control stick inputs from working when it's set to smash.

Weird. Because mine was set to tilts.

 

[Shaya]

1. Does power shielding a multi hit move become negated if you don't take advantage of it before being hit by another move?

2. How does hit lag and shield stun in these situations interact? Overlapping, cancelling each other out, synchronising? [hopefully not a Hit Lag *take hit* Hit Lag * take hit* hit lag *take hit* hit lag, last action's shield stun]

The assertion that sheik's needles on shield can lock you for up to 5 frames less than prepatch assumes shield stun is being applied when another hit comes in during shield lag.
Furthermore or otherwise, I'm wondering if power shielding needles pre-patch was superfluous as you would be could be forced to suffer shield lock completely anyway.

I think PSing Nado in Brawl didn't let you jab after a second hit struck shield, but I could be recalling incorrectly.

 

[Horseketchup]

Can someone explain to me why increasing the hitlag modifers on projectiles with <1 hitlag actually makes a difference in their safety? Since someone throwing out a projectile doesn't receive hitlag when it connects, wouldn't increasing attacker hitlag on projectiles essentially be irrelevant to how safe they are? I'm just hearing ppl on here talk about how this patch makes a lot of projectiles less safe now because of the equalization of hitlag, but I don't quite get it.

Wouldn't the only real effect be if defender hitlag was increased/decreased instead? As far as I know though, the hitlag for defenders wasn't effected by this patch, only attacker hitlag.

EDIT: Oh wait I think I get it....so it's that hitlag modifiers didn't apply to a shielding opponent prepatch, but post-patch the shielding opponent now also receives either more/less hitlag to match the modifier? In that case this all makes sense now.