Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Pikabunz]

Maybe already discussed, but did anyone notice that you can actually jump with the A button when running off a platform? Timing is very strict, but it's a thing.

It can be quite frustrating when trying to go for bair stage spikes ASAP but seems to work quite alright in order to completely nullify the Spin Roll momentum for Sonic.

I can confirm that this does happen. It's like a 1 frame timing though.

 

[Vipermoon]

So all characters full hop(?) from the edge of a stage with the A button and perfect timing? Which smash games was this also in?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I can confirm that this does happen. It's like a 1 frame timing though.

Yep, chalk up another ridiculous 1 frame shenanigan in Sm4sh.

I've noticed that a long time ago (3DS era, possibly) but never bothered recording it or anything. I kinda expected someone to come up with a video or something about it but apparently no one did..

So all characters full hop(?) from the edge of a stage with the A button and perfect timing? Which smash games was this also in?

I think you can short hop as well, but I'm not 100% sure. I don't think this was in any other Smash game at all..

---

BTW, this counts as a jump from the ground and not a double jump.

 

[Pikabunz]

Just did some testing on it. This only happens if you input back+A during the first 3 frames of running off an edge. This doesn't happen with the c-stick. There's no jump squat frames and it's always a full jump.

 

[Vipermoon]

Cool, so that means you jump backwards? I can't try it right now but if you jump backwards and there's no jumpsquat then this creates super fast Bairs.

 

[Pikabunz]

Yeah, you jump back.

 

[Vipermoon]

So... the name...? Edge Jump?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Cool, so that means you jump backwards? I can't try it right now but if you jump backwards and there's no jumpsquat then this creates super fast Bairs.

Not exactly.. because you're already using A to jump.

Unless you map the controller accordingly.

 

[Vipermoon]

Not exactly.. because you're already using A to jump.

Unless you map the controller accordingly.

You can't do a C stick aerial immediately?

Edit: Edge Jump or Jumpsquat Cancel

 

[Sonic Orochi]

So... the name...? Edge Jump?

Ædge jump. :v

You can't do a C stick aerial immediately?

Edit: Edge Jump or Jumpsquat Cancel

I think you can, but depending on where you have the A mapped, it might be a little bit unconfortable for quick inputs.

 

[Vipermoon]

Or combine them into Jumpsquat Cancelling Edge Jump (JCEJ). Smash has stupider names. Like RAR.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Also, speaking of cancelling, there's also another thing I noticed (again, quite a while ago): you can actually cancel the airdodge frames where you cannot grab a ledge with a wall jump and then be able to grab the ledge.

I've recorded a video on this one:

(yes, my f'ing amiibo "discovered" it)

 

[Yikarur]

I was thinking about doing a video about the A-Jump, because I've discovered this pretty soon after the game's release. It has some special properties. Maybe I should really do the video soon 8)

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Reverse A-Jump - RAJ.

There.

 

[Vipermoon]

That's really cool. It's like an invincible way to reach the ledge and since you grab it from above, you're still invincible on the grab.

Please no! Not RAJ.

I was thinking about doing a video about the A-Jump, because I've discovered this pretty soon after the game's release. It has some special properties. Maybe I should really do the video soon 8)

So will you call the video A-Jump, Jumpsquat Cancel, or Edge Jump?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

TBH I think A-Jump is fine. Not like there's any other instance where A equals jump (not counting special moves like Sonic's Spinball moves or Bowser Jr.'s kart and such).

That's really cool. It's like an invincible way to reach the ledge and you grab it from above you're still invincible on the grab.

Theoretically you can avoid some recovery hitboxes and then go for the quickest ledge trump possible.

Though, of course, the opponent can still buffer an action in order to not be trumped at all.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

edit.. double post

 

[Vipermoon]

TBH I think A-Jump is fine. Not like there's any other instance where A equals jump (not counting special moves like Sonic's Spinball moves or Bowser Jr.'s kart and such).



Theoretically you can avoid some recovery hitboxes and then go for the quickest ledge trump possible.

Though, of course, the opponent can still buffer an action in order to not be trumped at all.

I actually like A-jump/A-jumping too. That should be the name.

 

[Gibbs]

I like edge-squat-cancelling

 

[Darklink401]

Found something fun!

Super hard to do, but if you're in tumble animation, and input a jump like a frame or so before hitting the ground, you won't fall down, and you won't jump, you'll sorta......just land.

If it's regarding jump-squat frames, this could help heavies land?

So like jump-cancel landing squat?? XD

 

[Vipermoon]

Found something fun!

Super hard to do, but if you're in tumble animation, and input a jump like a frame or so before hitting the ground, you won't fall down, and you won't jump, you'll sorta......just land.

If it's regarding jump-squat frames, this could help heavies land?

So like jump-cancel landing squat?? XD

Wow, this sounds really interesting. Jump landing?

 

[Darklink401]

Wow, this sounds really interesting. Jump landing?

Pretty much.

I did it with Marth twice, haven't done it with anyone else yet. IDK if its before you hit the ground, the exact same time as you hit the ground, or after you hit the ground, but it DOES seem to be a 1-2 frame thing.

 

[Blobface]

Since it turned out we were wrong about shield hp this entire time, does anyone have an idea what regen/degen rates of shields are?

 

[Darklink401]

Since it turned out we were wrong about shield hp this entire time, does anyone have an idea what regen/degen rates of shields are?

Someone posted that shield decay is around 6 seconds, and regen is around 10 seconds (I don't remember the exact number)

They tested that on Rosa's shield, on 3ds

EDIT

Also, what do you mean, wrong about shield HP? o.o

 

[Blobface]

For a long time we thought shield hp was 50, when it's actually 41/42 or so. I don't know if that means any old tests are rendered moot or not.

 

[Darklink401]

For a long time we thought shield hp was 50, when it's actually 41/42 or so. I don't know if that means any old tests are rendered moot or not.

Was it 50 hp before? or was that always just, wrong? XD

 

[Vipermoon]

Was it 50 hp before? or was that always just, wrong? XD

It was always about 42. You can find this stuff in the shield thread and maybe also here (I forgot). It was one of the most recent major topics.

 

[Darklink401]

Walking ledge getup: Once thought to be Marth-exclusive, and dash-only getup, it was found out that it can be done with only a walk, meaning many more options (since walking = neutral position) and NOT Marth-exclusive.

However, the problem was that it was super inconsistent, and hard to do.

That being said, I found a way to do it consistently.

If you're in Lylat Cruise, and the stage is tilted upwards towards you as you hang from the ledge, you can let go by pressing back, then press forward and jump immediately and you'll just walk onto the stage.

It can be done in other stages, but takes more timing and practice.

That being said, the character I've found that can do it are: Marth, Zelda, Dark Pit (presumably Pit as well) and Little Mac.

Sheik, Mario, Rosa, Captain Falcon, and Luigi cannot.

Seems only low and mid tiers can....o3o Maybe it was Sakurai's gift to non-high tiers, giving them a pseudo-waveland XD

 

[busken]

I think RC Grabs have to be researched a little bit more.
As far as I know, you can only do a forward roll into the grab. However, if only a forward roll is possible how can you explain this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yKMLLHvYgo

He's obviously pivot grabbing and canceling his roll. The result is a RC Grab sliding backwards which would be a RC Pivot Grab. This would be impossible to do without canceling a backward roll.

Also, how fast is a RC grab? From what I've seen and tested it appears to be faster then a dash grab, but I lack a frame counter so I'm not sure.

Here's the exciting thing though. If RC grab and RC pivot grab are faster then dash grab and pivot grab it can potentially confirm guranteed grab follow-ups and make punishing defensive options much easier.

 

[LancerStaff]

Walking ledge getup: Once thought to be Marth-exclusive, and dash-only getup, it was found out that it can be done with only a walk, meaning many more options (since walking = neutral position) and NOT Marth-exclusive.

However, the problem was that it was super inconsistent, and hard to do.

That being said, I found a way to do it consistently.

If you're in Lylat Cruise, and the stage is tilted upwards towards you as you hang from the ledge, you can let go by pressing back, then press forward and jump immediately and you'll just walk onto the stage.

It can be done in other stages, but takes more timing and practice.

That being said, the character I've found that can do it are: Marth, Zelda, Dark Pit (presumably Pit as well) and Little Mac.

Sheik, Mario, Rosa, Captain Falcon, and Luigi cannot.

Seems only low and mid tiers can....o3o Maybe it was Sakurai's gift to non-high tiers, giving them a pseudo-waveland XD

Pit's a high tier and this has been known... Heck, Pit can autocancel his Fair and Bair from a getup like this.

I think RC Grabs have to be researched a little bit more.
As far as I know, you can only do a forward roll into the grab. However, if only a forward roll is possible how can you explain this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yKMLLHvYgo

He's obviously pivot grabbing and canceling his roll. The result is a RC Grab sliding backwards which would be a RC Pivot Grab. This would be impossible to do without canceling a backward roll.

Also, how fast is a RC grab? From what I've seen and tested it appears to be faster then a dash grab, but I lack a frame counter so I'm not sure.

Here's the exciting thing though. If RC grab and RC pivot grab are faster then dash grab and pivot grab it can potentially confirm guranteed grab follow-ups and make punishing defensive options much easier.

Pretty sure a RC grab (and a DAC Grab) just cancel the first frame or two of the roll (or da) and then plays the dash grab animation.

 

[Darklink401]

Pit's a high tier and this has been known... Heck, Pit can autocancel his Fair and Bair from a getup like this.



Pretty sure a RC grab (and a DAC Grab) just cancel the first frame or two of the roll (or da) and then plays the dash grab animation.

Pit's...well I'd put him at high mid tier, but sure xD

I was joking anyways lol

And I know it was known that it could be done, but everyone said it was too difficult. So lylat makes it easy XP

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit's...well I'd put him at high mid tier, but sure xD

I was joking anyways lol

And I know it was known that it could be done, but everyone said it was too difficult. So lylat makes it easy XP

Don't mean to turn this into an argument, but Pit's been considered a high tier for quite some time now. Especially in Japan where he has more dedicated players.

 

[busken]

I didn't ask that. I know that the Boost Grab and Roll Canceled Grab cancel the initial frames of the Dash attack and Roll respectively. I want to know if it is faster then a dash grab, meaning that the grab box comes out earlier when canceling the roll, then just doing a dash grab. If so this can open up new combo opportunities(most notably from low knockback moves) as being 2 frames faster means a lot when calculating hit stun. In order for somebody to confirm this, you need some type of game frame counter and need competence when performing it.

 

[Vipermoon]

I didn't ask that. I know that the Boost Grab and Roll Canceled Grab cancel the initial frames of the Dash attack and Roll respectively. I want to know if it is faster then a dash grab, meaning that the grab box comes out earlier when canceling the roll, then just doing a dash grab. If so this can open up new combo opportunities(most notably from low knockback moves) as being 2 frames faster means a lot when calculating hit stun.

I would think that it's slower than a normal pivot and dash grab since you are starting with a roll or dash attack instead of starting with the actual grab. But I don't know anything for sure.

 

[LancerStaff]

I didn't ask that. I know that the Boost Grab and Roll Canceled Grab cancel the initial frames of the Dash attack and Roll respectively. I want to know if it is faster then a dash grab, meaning that the grab box comes out earlier when canceling the roll, then just doing a dash grab. If so this can open up new combo opportunities(most notably from low knockback moves) as being 2 frames faster means a lot when calculating hit stun.

I get what you're saying... But I ment that the extended dash grabs shouldn't reduce the startup on the dash grab itself, only add because you're adding a frame or so of the other action. Although if it travels that much further, then it can be started sooner and thus might be better for combos. Don't think anybody gets something big enough for it to matter though.

 

[busken]

I would imagine it wouldn't be slower because the game registers you as rolling so if you make a grab input it may think that you are in a standing position, which could result in a 2 frame faster grab? I don't know.

 

[Vipermoon]

Maybe no one knows this yet

 

[LancerStaff]

*flips open SSB3D* Yeah, I'm going to say you don't save more then a frame doing it, if at all. A lot harder to do it properly in frame advance then you'd think, so I can't accurately count.

 

[Pikabunz]

Doesn't the roll canceled grab always come out as a dash grab? So you need at least 1 frame to dash, another for rolling, and then add however many frames your dash grab is.

 

[busken]

You cancel the first frame of the roll with a grab. Also, you don't need to dash to perform a RC grab.