ZSS vs Sonic

[Tenki]

Yes, I know there's a matchup thread.
If this thread works out and people contribute, just take the best/most correct information and compile it into the matchup thread.

Posted by Blue Terrorist in the Sonic boards' matchup thread:

Zero Suit Samus

Do:
- I encourage use of Side b a little more unless you wanna continue the pressure.
- Punish her after a whiffed whip attack and whiffed grab as usual. LOL if she uses Dair and misses.
- Gimp her, she has a tether recovery so if you hit her on her second jump, you only have to worry about her down b and her recovery. (P.S. She can use her grab, Up b and Side b as a tether recovery. )
- Use your shield for approaches, mix it up with a hyphen smash for best results.
- She's extremely light, so don't spam kill moves so you can kill her quicker.

Don't:
- Her Paralyzer (which is Neutral b) she also uses it as her down smash as well. Extremely dangerous because, Sonic will be stopped cold and THAT'S NO GOOD!!! It's harder to shake out if your percentage is high, leaving you open for anything. Oh yeah, expect them to camp you with this just giving a heads up.
- Keep close or fall victim to her Side B as well. Oh be careful close range as well, her Dsmash will also bring her paralyzer out.
- Don't approach from the air too much, Usmash and Up b make good anti-airs. Her aerial game is good too. Keep in mind, Up b will spike if sweetspotted leading to a combo or death if your not careful.
- The kick follow up after her Down b spikes, so be careful while gimping.
- Be careful on platforms, she'll harass you from under them.
- NOT TO BE DISTRACTED BY HER LOOKS!! (Not a problem, I just put this in for the Lulz )

Opinion: Zamus is alot more dangerous to Sonic than her other form. She doesn't have too much kill moves, but the ability to stun you totally makes up for it. The invincibility frames of his Side B and dashing shield are gonna help you get in close. Her melee attacks aren't to good so you have the advantage up close (assuming you mix it up). Just don't get harassed at long distances with her whip and paralyzer and you should make it out just fine. In fact, the only thing that kills Sonic here is her paralyzer so if you work your way around it, then this match up will be less stressful. Just be careful when approaching from the air ^_^'.

just replace the do's and dont's with 'Things to do' and 'Things to watch out for', lol.

Granted, I've rarely fought ZSS mainers so I can't confirm/de-confirm any of this (except, I think ZSS' grab doesn't work as a midair attack/tether >_>).

I'm requesting a ZSS vs Sonic matchup, from the ZSS side.

I believe it's a rare fight both ways- like I said, I don't meet (many) ZSS mainers, and hardly anyone goes against a competent Sonic player. If you believe yourself to be a good ZSS player and want to fight a decent Sonic player, there's a thread (2 atm lol) on the Sonic boards for requesting matches against Sonic players.

 

[DarkShadowRage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86w2g0L9XuU&fmt=18
ZSS wins

 

[fkacyan]

SideB > All Sonic has to offer
NeutralB > All Sonic has to offer

I've fought good Sonics, and there's really nothing they can do against either move. Lack of priority and attack variety really injures Sonic in a lot of matchups.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thio seriously W.T.F.

Whatever Sonic characters you were playing are quite horrid.
Side>B and neutral B?
Must be a joke post it must be.

Seriously before anyone starts talking about Sonic they need to pick up Sonic, play him for a good two weeks before saying a projectile is greater than him.
Or even better, visit the Sonic forum and look at the videos as well as the FAQs.

A move that relies heavily on spacing to be at its best? Or the fact its telegraphed?
A projectile that is slow and poor in range greater than anything sonic has?

Has to be a joke post.

Oh and that video? i give it as much consideration as I would a bum on the train?
Why?

That was a really really bad sonic.


Has to be two joke posts. people really can't be serious.

 

[DarkShadowRage]

Side B can Knock sonic out of his spin dash moves, he can be dsmashed OUT of his spin dash as you can see in the above video, though I wasnt playing my greatest in that video.

But her stun gun can just paralize sonic as he bolts towards you he can be grabbed out of his attacks very easily.

Sonic might be fast, but ZSS can gain the upper hand rather quickly, and once one learns the differences between sonics spin move charge animations, sonic users won't have much left if they try to fake out the person on which attack they are using.

Though i'm not one to explain things very well i'm sure someone can say it better than I could, i'm not the best at this sort of thing but I try anyways.

Oh and I only posted the video for teh lulz, because I knew the sonic player sucked But I liked the KO anyway.

 

[fkacyan]

Thio seriously W.T.F.

Whatever Sonic characters you were playing are quite horrid.
Side>B and neutral B?
Must be a joke post it must be.

Seriously before anyone starts talking about Sonic they need to pick up Sonic, play him for a good two weeks before saying a projectile is greater than him.
Or even better, visit the Sonic forum and look at the videos as well as the FAQs.

A move that relies heavily on spacing to be at its best? Or the fact its telegraphed?
A projectile that is slow and poor in range greater than anything sonic has?

Has to be a joke post.

Oh and that video? i give it as much consideration as I would a bum on the train?
Why?

That was a really really bad sonic.


Has to be two joke posts. people really can't be serious.

You're an idiot.

I'm not even going to bother elaborating further. You don't know your own character if you don't know why two spacing moves are good against a character who is entirely melee based with no projectiles.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Side B can Knock sonic out of his spin dash moves, he can be dsmashed OUT of his spin dash as you can see in the above video, though I wasnt playing my greatest in that video.

This makes me laugh.
Side B has invincibility frames.
you can see in 0:05 when Sonic's side B isn't hit during the initial hop.

Do you know how incredibly predictable that Sonic was behaving?
For one he was chaging up a side B from far away and waited, yes waited repeatedly for the opponent to get close.
Sonic does not let the opponent get close. He does not let the opponent control the spacing.

Not to mention his usage of aerials was lacking.
His spammage and poor usage of specials was also staggering.
Yes let's compare a somewhat good ZSS to a really really bad Sonic.
+1 for you in bizarro land.

But her stun gun can just paralize sonic as he bolts towards you he can be grabbed out of his attacks very easily.

Dash!.sideB~>Shield=instant shield and instant stop.

Not to mention he can dash, shield and grab ZSS after bullet hits.
Yes he is that fast and her range with the stun gun is that poor. in range.
Anything that requires a moment to charge up to go the distance of wolf's blaster (no wait its shorter in range than that) should never hit Sonic while he is doing anything.


Her grabs only affect him while he is on the ground. Sonic is very quick to get into the air so grabbing him is quite difficult.

Sonic might be fast, but ZSS can gain the upper hand rather quickly, and once one learns the differences between sonics spin move charge animations, sonic users won't have much left if they try to fake out the person on which attack they are using.

Fail. Hard fail.
Really hard fail.

A sonic doesn't try to trick the opponent with the appearance of their specials for one.
Again look at the video and please compare it to the Sonic forums videos.
What a stark contrast. In both movement and behavior
They even have one with ZSS.

Though i'm not one to explain things very well i'm sure someone can say it better than I could, i'm not the best at this sort of thing but I try anyways.

You are stuck on really bad preconceptions.

I look forward to a video from Tenki. He isn't a bad sonic user. He's pretty decent from what I hear.
I really want to see if those ideas you have in your head remain.
Or even better I can just PM you for a wifi battle in a week in case Tenki doesn't get a battle.

No wait you can just go to the Sonic forums instead! Instant solution!

You're an idiot.

An idiot?
I would prefer being an idiot rather than being ignorant. At least then I would have some knowledge about my opponents character

I'm not even going to bother elaborating further. You don't know your own character if you don't know why two spacing moves are good against a character who is entirely melee based with no projectiles.

If this was true why does MK **** ZSS so hard?
Or how about Marth?

XD you don't even understand basic gameplay.
your side B becomes very difficult to land once your opponent you know, uses their brain instead of running about like a fool. Do you know how easy it is to see ZSS is using her side B?

This made laugh hard.
No really I am serious. Here's a cookie for your trouble child.
Now go to Fail.
Do not pass go.
Do not collect $200.

 

[Tenki]

O_O; I was hoping that ShadowLink had high standards/skill level and that the Sonic was just 'not as good as him', but holy crap, that Sonic did suck. All he did was run away and spam his side-B, and he didn't chase you off the ledge or follow up consistently. He had a chance to grab and delayed+jabbed instead -_-'

Fight a Sonic that can spin-shot (fast/low aerial jump) or at least not stand there charging (the same move) for 3 seconds to be punished...

I mean sure, it was (i guess) demonstrational of what moves beat what, but I really hope that's not what ZSS uses to judge the whole matchup lol.

Also, I don't think alot of Sonic players really rely on the similarity of their spin attacks' graphics to 'trick' people xD

;_; I think we need some cross-character matches to better define the match-up between the two characters.

[edit]
also, lol because 2 posts happened as I was typing this.
@ShadowLink, I'm just an analyst ^.^; I'm still pretty naiive on matches and I get beaten often by characters whose mains I've never fought before. Also, my Wii can't go online atm.

 

[DarkShadowRage]

Like I said I'm not the best person to debate such things I just say it as it is, it seems like this is going to turn into a giant flame war, one which I will not be apart of >_> so see ya!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Tenki don't bother. Just wait for the intelligent ZSS users to arrive.
I am actualy quite generous when I criticize something and I honestly was not expecting such a bad display of Sonic use.
We should play when I regain wifi, I need help with my defensive game =(

Seriously, what kind of sonic telegraphs their moves from the other side of the stage? Or lets the opponent get close?
Or lets them control spacing?

Yes it shows what moves can beat what but it only shows the worst circumstances.
Sonic side B in 0:05 goes through the side B during the initial hop, more than enough time to avoid it, especially with the narrow hitbox the side B from her whip.

Tenki I wish you luck. I am quite sure an intelligent ZSS will give you a good match.
Or spams their moves so poorly.

This only further adds to the many misconceptions concerning Sonic's gameplay.

 

[fkacyan]

If this was true why does MK **** ZSS so hard?
Or how about Marth?

XD you don't even understand basic gameplay.
your side B becomes very difficult to land once your opponent you know, uses their brain instead of running about like a fool. Do you know how easy it is to see ZSS is using her side B?

MK And Marth don't have terrible air games, and they can punish ZSS far more easily. I'm not sure why you're bringing them up, as they're completely different characters with much different styles of approach and attack than Sonic.

Spacing isn't about landing attacks. It's about keeping the opponent away. Sonic might be fast, but due to the nature of his attacks, he really isn't able to punish a side-B. You have nothing of equal or higher priority to clash-cancel it, you have no attacks to go around it. Thus, it keeps you at a decent distance, a distance you can't really do much of anything from. Landing the side-B isn't necessarily the objective of using it. However, judging from your posts, mindgames are useless and something nobody does anymore, so I doubt you'd notice something like this.

EDIT: I'm not sure you really know what the problem in this matchup is for Sonic. Either ZSS's moves are keeping you away, or you're getting close and getting punished as a result. Yes, the side-B has invincibility frames in the initial hop, but no ZSS should ever be that close to you during the beginning of the attack. If you're using anything but, you'll stop at their powershield and immediately get grabcombod. In an air battle you have nothing to go through the priority she has. You have even fewer killing moves that have even worse range than ZSS's.

You can take shots, flame people, and act internet!cool all you'd like, but the matchup is even at best, due to Sonic's terrible priority, I'd have to lean in the direction of a ZSS bias.

 

[ShadowLink84]

MK And Marth don't have terrible air games, and they can punish ZSS far more easily. I'm not sure why you're bringing them up, as they're completely different characters with much different styles of approach and attack than Sonic.

Because you said her moves are excellent against characters with no projectile.
Telegraphed, easily dodged specials.
For your information Sonic is also an aerial character with an above average aerial game.
Your ignorance is showing again since you believe him to have a terrible air game.

Spacing isn't about landing attacks. It's about keeping the opponent away. Sonic might be fast, but due to the nature of his attacks, he really isn't able to punish a side-B. You have nothing of equal or higher priority to clash-cancel it, you have no attacks to go around it. Thus, it keeps you at a decent distance, a distance you can't really do much of anything from. Landing the side-B isn't necessarily the objective of using it. However, judging from your posts, mindgames are useless and something nobody does anymore, so I doubt you'd notice something like this.

Judging from your posts intelligence dropped a staggering 20 points.
For one spacing isn't about keeping the opponent away.
Spacing is about controlling the distance between you and your opponent.
When you want them close YOU get up close, they aren't having the opportunity to control the distance between you and your opponent.
Learn your terms.

Sonic is very capable of punishing side B.
homing attack, Dash and shield, U smash with invincibility frames.
Jumping.
yeah Sonic definitely can't get to him.
SJC
Spin shotting
DAC
Sonic is very adept at getting close. Again shows your ignorance and lack of knowledge about Sonic as well as the game itself..

EDIT: I'm not sure you really know what the problem in this matchup is for Sonic. Either ZSS's moves are keeping you away, or you're getting close and getting punished as a result. Yes, the side-B has invincibility frames in the initial hop, but no ZSS should ever be that close to you during the beginning of the attack.

She doesn't need to be. the invincibility frames aren't meant for attacking again, shows your ignorance of Sonic. They are meant as an approach.
She side B with the tether sonic uses the initial hop to move forward and attack ZSS.
The side B is an approach it isn't meant to be used as an attack.
Considering the distance that Sonic has to close even if he doesn't hit ZSS it allows him to control spacing or my most favorite, perform an ASC to get even closer than grab ZSS and pummel her ***. (not meant to be sexual. Beastiality is only erotic in fanfics LOL)

If you're using anything but, you'll stop at their powershield and immediately get grabcombod.

ASC solves the problem and allows Sonic to get close to grab her. His grab is faster than ZSS. Or he can use the ASC as a method to attack from the air.
She can't grab him becaue he can immediately jump as soon as he lands on the ground during an ASC. Or go into a dodge.
Grab my ***. Pun unintended.
Again this shows youyr lack of knowledge at what Sonic can do. You make an assumption of an idiot Sonic.

In an air battle you have nothing to go through the priority she has. You have even fewer killing moves that have even worse range than ZSS's.

Sonic never attempts to take ANY characters head on.
Range means nothing to Sonic. His speed is more than enough to get up clsoe so that even if you do hit him. the moves clash and you still suffer damage.
again you are horribly ignorant of what Sonic and how he plays against an opponent.
He never tries to take an opponent head on.

You can take shots, flame people, and act internet!cool all you'd like, but the matchup is even at best, due to Sonic's terrible priority, I'd have to lean in the direction of a ZSS bias.

Very very stupid bias.

 

[Garde]

First off, Sonic is at a huge disadvantage against ZSS for various reasons.

1) He has no reach.

2) He has terrible priority.

3) His moves are laggy.

Those 3 things combined make it a very difficult match for him.

MK and Marth have none of those faults, and thus they do much better against her than Sonic does.

I'd say more, but I'm busy at the moment. I can elaborate later.

 

[fkacyan]

There's little to no logic in your argument. The entire thing is "Lol you know nothing." Ad hominem is not a basis for a debate. Throwing insults at my knowledge of the game is not a basis for an argument.

However, since you do have a few things worthy of debating in that post, I'll dig them up and address them.

Your ignorance is showing again since you believe him to have a terrible air game.

His dair is like ZSS's - Really bad, easy to punish. His nair has less priority than ZSS's aerials, and less range. His fair is decent, but once again, doesn't have the range. His bair has far too much startup lag for almost anything. His uair is good for his sideB jump combos. Probably his best aerial. What all of these aerials lack is priority. The stronger ones will clash with ZSS's, and as hers have far less startup lag, you can't compete with her in the air. Her B moves will outdo the B moves you can do in the air as well. This is the same for many other characters. It comes down to Sonic just not having the priority / quick startup needed for his aerials to be as good. If you tack that on to his slow aerial speed, it makes his air game rather weak.

Sonic is very adept at getting close. Again shows your ignorance and lack of knowledge about Sonic as well as the game itself..

The sideB doesn't have much lag at the end of the attack. Most of the punishment that happens is during the beginning. If you're not already next to her, you're not punishing it, generally. Yes, Sonic can get close afterwards, but to what end? At that point the ZSS can simply shieldroll away, spotdodge whatever attack you're using, etc. I'm expecting you don't run into the sideB. Approaching through the air is even worse, because then you have her air and anti-air games to deal with.

That's really all I can address here. The rest is mainly just insulting me. If you want these forums to take you seriously, you're going to have to drop the 'SONIC IS THE BEST CHARACTER EVAR AND ANYBODY WHO SAYS OTHERWISE IS A ****ING MORON' shtick and actually start backing up your points with rationale and not personal attacks.

 

[Tenki]

NOTE: WTF I GET LIKE 3 POSTS BEHIND FOR EACH REPLY I MAKE D:

^Thiocyanide('s last post before this): Mindgames are important, but what ShadowLink pointed out was true: Sonic players don't rely on their opponent being confused on which move they're using.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168167

That was a shortlived thread, but it was pretty much summed up right there.

At the moment, the 'mindgames' being worked on are resembling those of other characters- whether Sonic will go for an attack or cancel and feint. That's a good thing for the metagame, since it means that Sonic players aren't relying on something as fickle as confusing someone with charge graphics.

Like I said I'm not the best person to debate such things I just say it as it is, it seems like this is going to turn into a giant flame war, one which I will not be apart of >_> so see ya!

It really does look that way atm. But there really are alot of misconceptions, and I can see where ShadowLink's frustration (?) is coming from, which is why I'm trying to find out, in a 3rd person way, if any good ZSS has fought any good Sonic players and what their opinions of the matchup is. I don't want the Sonic vs ZSS matchup as quoted in the first post to be assuming a really noob ZSS player and misrepresenting the matchup.

If you haven't fought a good Sonic player, and want to make this matchup thread more than a hypothetical flame war full of ad hominem attacks, order a match in either of these threads, and maybe take/post a video of it and its results. There are good players that are more than willing to do a match.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170626
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167434

Also, ShadowLink, lol I can see it from your point of view, but calm down a bit XD
[EDIT]
PS: I don't think Sonic's u-smash really has invincibility frames.

[EDIT 2]
LOL I MADE A REPLY BUT 2 MORE POSTS HAPPENED WHILE I WAS EDITING

 

[DarkShadowRage]

NOTE: WTF I GET LIKE 3 POSTS BEHIND FOR EACH REPLY I MAKE D:

^Thiocyanide: Mindgames are important, but what ShadowLink pointed out was true: Sonic players don't rely on their opponent being confused on which move they're using.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168167

That was a shortlived thread, but it was pretty much summed up right there.

At the moment, the 'mindgames' being worked on are resembling those of other characters- whether Sonic will go for an attack or cancel and feint. That's a good thing for the metagame, since it means that Sonic players aren't relying on something as fickle as confusing someone with charge graphics.



It really does look that way atm. But there really are alot of misconceptions, and I can see where ShadowLink's frustration (?) is coming from, which is why I'm trying to find out, in a 3rd person way, if any good ZSS has fought any good Sonic players and what their opinions of the matchup is. I don't want the Sonic vs ZSS matchup as quoted in the first post to be assuming a really noob ZSS player and misrepresenting the matchup.

If you haven't fought a good Sonic player, and want to make this matchup thread more than a hypothetical flame war, order a match in either of these threads, and maybe take/post a video of it. There are good players that are more than willing to do a match.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170626
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167434

Also, ShadowLink, lol I can see it from your point of view, but calm down a bit XD

Oh i'm not a n00b ZSS player, I don't suck with her, I just wasnt doing very good in that video anyways, I Have fought a few good sonic players who have kicked my ***, I am by far not the best player ever, I don't even consider myself all that great, Adverage at best.

It's just I can't really discuss things out in words and explain such things very well, I Just do them.

That's why I am not very good in debates, half the time I won't know how to say/word things correctly which causes alot of confusion.
Albeit I never was a Highly competitive melee player as I didn't have anyone to play against, my friends wernt into smash much, I couldn't drive at the time so I couldn't go to any tournaments etc etc.

So brawl opend a new light for me, so I have been working with ZSS since March 9th on the release I continue to practice every single day, I win and I lose, sometimes I Just really suck at times, in that video I posted, the guy rage quitted after I was just beating his *** because he said "I don't like sonic" I only posted said video, for a laugh at how bad he was, though I suppose i posted it in the wrong manner, and it started up a little spark.

My following post, I tried to explain somethings, but I knew I was going to cause alot of confusion, I mean I'm smart and all, just when it comes to explaining this stuff I just have a hard time because it gets rather confusing because I never really dug deep enough into all the terms and such.

I'm sorry if I came off sounding like an *******, I by no means never really wanted to start a flame war, I was just being a ZSS fanboy. And well I <3 ZSS I was just being me.

I applogize for any misconceptions and or confusion I have caused.

 

[ShadowLink84]

First off, Sonic is at a huge disadvantage against ZSS for various reasons.

1) He has no reach.

Wrong. Again he has many techniques that increase his range.
Not to mention his grab range is very good.

2) He has terrible priority.

Mostly his aerials.
However the reach of the Uair makes upon for this and three of his moves have invincibility frames and he enver attacks head on with an opponent.
It is a major weakness I give you that.

3) His moves are laggy.

His B move yes.
his D smash and Fsmash yes.
Bair maybe but that isn't horribly slow
Fair can kill you off the stage at 100% as will the Nair and the Uair is very good.
Dair semispikes and has decent priority int he beginning of the move. (where it semispikes)

Those 3 things combined make it a very difficult match for him.

Hmm let me think. NO.
Its not an overly difficult match.
A difficult match would be MK and Luigi.

I at least look up the information on ZSS and played as her for a week.
Apparently nobody here has and if they have, didn't get past spamming his dash attacks and spindash attacks (in a poor fashion might I add)

MK and Marth have none of those faults, and thus they do much better against her than Sonic does.

MK and Marth lack projectiles so under the idea of thio they should have a hard time.

For one the lack of range is easily made up for by his incredibly speed both in air and on the ground. If you do not understand again I refer you to the sonic forums so you'll see why.

Yes Sonic lack proiority and while it does hurt him, he is never going to attack an opponent directly. This is what you fail to understand about Sonic.

Here I shall provide you with a small amount of reasoning since you seem more misinformed rather than being ignorant like thio.

The range issue is not a large issue for Sonic.
This is mainly due to the amount of speed he has both aerially and on the ground.
Spincharge goes as fast as you tap B so it doesn't take long and it is very difficult to hit something moving almost as fast as the F-zero cars on big blue.
Considering most sonic's use it just outside of ZSS's maximum range this can be problematic.
This is only further an issue as Sonic can fire himself into the air without moving horizontally.
He iwll move at the same speed as Wario in the air via spinshotting.
It doesn't even need to be charged.

SJC is the spin jump cancel.
Basically you start an over B and immediately press the jump button after letting go of B.
The result is that Sonic goes rocketing close to 3/4ths the size of FD at a speed greater than Wario.
Not to mention that he can take advantage of the spindash's invincibility frames to escape a move he normally would be struck by.
So for example in 0:05 the over B is supposed to hit him due to its hitbox. however the Sonic user (who sucks arse by the way) jumps during the initial hop allowing him to escape before the frames ran out.

DAC sends him close to half the distance across FD. The U smash also has invincibility frames during the actual ball so you cannot hit him out of it. You would have to hit him at the beginning of the U smash which actually clashes with decently prioritized moves.
This is impossible considering the distance he can travel across from so it would force you to either dodge and then attack or quickly move back in order to maintain spacing.
The cooldown time from the Usmash isn't great either so the distance you have to react quickly.
Considering that amny zsS maintain medium range distance in order to control spacing this can make her over B difficult to land.

I have yet to see a competent ZSS use her neutral B in anything other than close range. In order for the move to go up to medium range it requires that she charge it and charging anything that behaves like a smash attack typically means you will be punished.
With the amount of time it takes for her to pull the gun back after the fire Sonic can capitalize on this move.
When is she going to use the neutral B? While he is busy charging a side B?
SJC means he'll immediately be there to attack and punish.

He over B is good for spacing but again the issue is Sonic's aerial and ground speed.
Not to mention that the move is telegraphed before it actually comes out and is is intimately connected to the animation. So it does take a moment for the actual hit to touch the character even after she has lashed out. While it is quick if you work solely on the amount of time telgraphed the move begins to show its weakness.
If she tries to over B him while he dashes forward he can immediately shield and then grab her.
Mainly because he slides a decent distance and even if he isn't close enough to grab. He can quickly go after her after blocking the attack. Yes you can dodge back but again Sonic is excellent at chasing so you end up getting pressured.

For Sonic who controls spacing very well this will force ZSS to close in.
The problem is that if she closes in Sonic can easily get close to her and punish her.
She can grab but again most of the time Sonic is in the air and will hardly remain on the ground long enough for a grab.

A sonic user will never make himself obvious in his movement.
You may think he will use a spincharge to attack but he will spinshot above and attack.
The variety of options he has from those two attacks alone make him very difficult to predict.

In the air he is difficult to deal with especially since most of the time when he is in the air it is just outside of your hitbox.

Her over B would be a threat if it wasn't telegraphed and was instant in the actual hit itself.

So far all I here is pinting out sonic's weaknesses and yet noone here has actually tried to attack Sonic's strategy.
In fact many here assume a n00by sonic.

Now I ask you, can you take the points have offered, as well as the strategies and tell me how her neutral B and over B can stop everything including a DAC, SJC, ASC~Grab, Ability to instantly stop dashing as well as the many approaches?
This is mostly his ground game with some hints towards his aerial game which I haven't even presented at its full depth and aspect.
Everything presented ties into his ground game.

Now I ask you as a fellow gamer and competitor how is it that Sonic is at a massive disadvantage when the sheer ability to control spacing outdoes ZSS and how two moves that require a predictable opponent will counter a character who can move almost as fast as a F zero car on big blue?

The more I think about it the more I think that the match is not a disadvantage but rather towards the neutral end.

I'd say more, but I'm busy at the moment. I can elaborate later.

I await your reply with bated breath.

h i'm not a n00b ZSS player, I don't suck with her, I just wasnt doing very good in that video anyways, I Have fought a few good sonic players who have kicked my ***, I am by far not the best player ever, I don't even consider myself all that great, Adverage at best.

Never said you were. The one so far that I critiqued on are the comments made not your ZSS.I also crituqed the really bad sonic because I find it silly you provided a video that really does not show any kinda of semblance of skill for sonic and then passedit off as what would happen. Its somewhat aggravating considering Sonic.

It's just I can't really discuss things out in words and explain such things very well, I Just do them.

Its okay.

snip

No need for reasoning.
I already decided I acted rude earlier so i apologize as well for how I reacted. it gets frustrating however, its understandable if the character is poor. (I used to use Bowserin melee) and here is reason but it just pisses me off greatly when peole assume that the n00by behavior of a character whois already underestimated, is how the character is to be played.
This goes in general.

I'm sorry if I came off sounding like an *******, I by no means never really wanted to start a flame war, I was just being a ZSS fanboy. And well I <3 ZSS I was just being mean.

I applogize for any misconceptions and or confusion I have caused.

I apologize as well I was somewhat of an ******* as well.

Now for the personwho makes assumptions that are really bad.

There's little to no logic in your argument. The entire thing is "Lol you know nothing." Ad hominem is not a basis for a debate. Throwing insults at my knowledge of the game is not a basis for an argument.

Right because clearly I did not include anything on how sonic plays or your really poor definition of spacing (which y the way is called defensive play or being campy. Just a hint)

However, since you do have a few things worthy of debating in that post, I'll dig them up and address them.[/quote} Few? I made a wall.
Walls are not few.

His dair is like ZSS's - Really bad, easy to punish.

Might I ask you why a Sonic would use his Dair?
Here I'll tell you.
get back to the ground, surprise an opponent.
unlike ZSS it cancels after a certain distance.
yu can jump off the edge, Dair and cancel with a double or spring .
you can double jump, Dair then cancel with a spring.
You can even do this on smashville. Try it, Dair has other uses besides offensive.

His nair has less priority than ZSS's aerials, and less range.

But it is easier to aim and has just as much priority as her Fair when the move is first initiated. A common mistake people do is time his Nair incorrectly.

His fair is decent, but once again, doesn't have the range.

Idon't see Zamus with a disjointed hitbox in any of her moves other than her Nair and maybe her Uair.

Again Range is made up for by his speed. Doy ou just ignore parts of my posts as you read along?

His bair has far too much startup lag for almost anything.

Yes but has no lag upon cool down soy ou can't punish him after it either. Woo.
Either way Bair is used as a surprise , over the edge wher ethe opponent MUST dodge.
Again the usage of the attack is more important.

His uair is good for his sideB jump combos. Probably his best aerial. What all of these aerials lack is priority. [/qoute]
initial animation of his Nair has decent priority.
Uair has good range and priority.
It doesn't only combo his side b or down B.
His Fair and Bair do that as well.
His Uair is really useful for U throw or for edge guarding and landing early kills.
Again it shows how little you know of Sonic.

The stronger ones will clash with ZSS's, and as hers have far less startup lag, you can't compete with her in the air.

I thought he had no priority?
Fair, Nair and Uai (outdoes her Dair) come out immediately.
Again you know little of the character. Try themout extensively.

Her B moves will outdo the B moves you can do in the air as well.

Side B over does Sonic's homing attack?
HA! Funny considering sonic rises and will then whack her on the head.
Side B has invincibility frames and his aerial down B has good priority in the air and can potentially kill you at higher percents.

It she going to use her ^B on him?
Sorry Spring and Dair say hi so its useless.
Her side B? Again easily telegraphed prepare for homing attack punishment (which can be canceled in start up time)
Her neutral B?
homing attack says hi as does his ^B to Dair. (really hard to dodge BTW)
Down B? Yeah who gets hit by it?
Anyone?

I have yet to Down B anyone to their doom without them being off the stage and incredibly stupid. In fact down B has no offensive use worth mentioning. Her specials are awesome indeed.

This is the same for many other characters. It comes down to Sonic just not having the priority / quick startup needed for his aerials to be as good. If you tack that on to his slow aerial speed, it makes his air game rather weak.

If you break aerial speed into tiers.

Sonic's aerial speed is top of high tier.
Zamus is lower than him.

Christ it hurts to be wrong doesn't it?
Not to mention you ignored my SJC and spinshotting statement again!

The sideB doesn't have much lag at the end of the attack.

And the beginning can be insta canceled.

Most of the punishment that happens is during the beginning.

Oh and pray tell when this happens.
Unless he is in the iddle of his side B or just sitting there like a fool you will enver ever hit sonic out of his side B. Not unless he is stupid to be close enough for you to hit him.

If you're not already next to her, you're not punishing it, generally.

LOL!

Yes, Sonic can get close afterwards, but to what end?

Punishment?
Jab< Dtilt, F tilt?

At that point the ZSS can simply shieldroll away, spotdodge whatever attack you're using, etc. I'm expecting you don't run into the sideB.

Never. Why? I usually shield it or, use an SJC to appear over her and just bonk her a good one.

Approaching through the air is even worse, because then you have her air and anti-air games to deal with.

Yes cause Sonic definitely is going to jump over her like a moron and say, HI Zamus hit me with your ^ B.

No sorry not gonna happen. Ever.
Her anti air game is not very good period. Sonic outdoes her in speed and on ground so how are you going to hit something that is constantly outside your range?

That's really all I can address here. The rest is mainly just insulting me. If you want these forums to take you seriously, you're going to have to drop the 'SONIC IS THE BEST CHARACTER EVAR AND ANYBODY WHO SAYS OTHERWISE IS A ****ING MORON' shtick and actually start backing up your points with rationale and not personal attacks.

LOL. Where did i ever say Sonic was the best ever. I clearly remember stating that Marth and MK trounce him which really points otherwise.

back up your points with some intelligence and I may take you seriously.
o far the only one that hasn't really assumed n00b sonic is gleam and he as well shows little knowledge of Sonic.

Again read my posts, I'll refrain from insulting you as long as you read my posts.

Also, ShadowLink, lol I can see it from your point of view, but calm down a bit XD
[EDIT]
PS: I don't think Sonic's u-smash really has invincibility frames.

If it doesn't then it has a massive amount of priority.
I've managed to break through all of MK's and Luigi's aerials with a U smash.

The invincibility frames/massive priority frames occur right after he rolls into a ball.
Its perfect for DAC since while he's sliding he has already jumped into the air and by the time he gets to the opponent he is already int he ball. By the late end of the dash he pops out and it has little lag in the end.

Oh and I am not calming down. I really get tired of n00bs going. LOL SIONC SUXXORZ.
Or providing really crap reasons.
I lacerated the n00b that said Marth was mid tier and I lacerated the n00b that said Olimar can't compete with Snake as I lacerated the n00b that declared Snake had no weaknesses.
It's the reason I had left SWF in the past. I just couldn't stand the fact that people would constantly whine about how good Link's ^B was even after 5 years of melee's existence!
It's as bad as when they say,, tiers don't matters its the skill of the player.
Or my favorite, when they make AT's that are common sense.

They need an injection of n00b be gone.
Seriously, the tournament I went to most recently was filled with n00bs whose idea of strategy were spamming Pit's arrows like that would actually mean something!

The only place that can honestly be said has some semblance of intelligence is the debate hall and the SBR.
Even then the rather extremely pessimistic attitude stiffles any sort of development towards brawl. This also occurred when melee was being developed as mentioned with the Link's spin attack. it took a year before the small community (compared to now) got into their heads that it was actually not overpowered.

My frustration is well within reason. Seriously.
That and I was woken up at 7 o clock in the morning after only gaining 3 hours of sleep. /rant

 

[Tenki]

just a side note, this was originally an edit in my last post, but all the posts between this and my last one occurred as I was typing it. LOL. I've read the posts and I'm going to finally address their points:
Going in chronological order...

His dair is like ZSS's - Really bad, easy to punish. His nair has less priority than ZSS's aerials, and less range. His fair is decent, but once again, doesn't have the range. His bair has far too much startup lag for almost anything. His uair is good for his sideB jump combos. Probably his best aerial. What all of these aerials lack is priority. The stronger ones will clash with ZSS's, and as hers have far less startup lag, you can't compete with her in the air. Her B moves will outdo the B moves you can do in the air as well. This is the same for many other characters. It comes down to Sonic just not having the priority / quick startup needed for his aerials to be as good. If you tack that on to his slow aerial speed, it makes his air game rather weak.

Quick primer on Sonic's aerials:
- His d-air, at the beginning, acts as a semi spike. It works in conjunction with his spring (please tell me Sonic players you've fought use springs...) so he can auto-cancel lag, making it an approach option instead of just an attack option. IMO being able to auto-cancel (and recover from) it makes it alot better than other characters' stall-then-fall aerials.
- B-air, like Falcon's Knee, or Snake's F-air, Ganon's d-air, or even Ike's aerials, are just a matter of timing and practice to get comfortable with its range and timing. I use it sparsely as a damager, but I usually save it for KO's. After you get out of the timing problem, it's basically just like hitting with any other aerial. On a random note, it has the longest horizontal range of any of his aerials.
- I'll agree in that F-air doesn't have alot of range, but I usually use it from a short hop, meaning that I can just run up to/inside someone's range, jump into them and F-air. It's also his strongest-damaging aerial, making it a perfect damager out of a spindash combo.
- U-air is a juggler, we both agree on that. Another little known fact is that its vertical range on the 2nd hit / 'clap' of the kicks actually extends past his graphics, acting like a Lucario-style aura. I've hit Dedede's and Bowsers from their UpB and DownBs, respectively, with it.

The sideB doesn't have much lag at the end of the attack. Most of the punishment that happens is during the beginning. If you're not already next to her, you're not punishing it, generally. Yes, Sonic can get close afterwards, but to what end? At that point the ZSS can simply shieldroll away, spotdodge whatever attack you're using, etc. I'm expecting you don't run into the sideB. Approaching through the air is even worse, because then you have her air and anti-air games to deal with.

Back when I had WFC access, I had a match with Flying Dutchman of the Ganondorf boards, to confirm the Ganon vs Sonic matchup, since both boards had their own, and both of them had conflicting claims. In those matches, I was able run up and punish Ganondorf's "hard-to-punish" jab attack starting from a distance of 1/3-1/2 of Final Destination away. Things like that are what Sonic's spacing and speed are used for. He didn't see it coming, I didn't know it was possible, but apparently Sonic can take advantage of the slightest post-lag. Before that match, Sonic was seen as an 'easy' matchup for Ganondorf whose approaches can 'easily be stopped by jab'. Take a look at the Ganondorf match-up thread. It's ... starkly different now.

Anyway, tying it back into my little Sonic aerial primer, I usually use F-air in a shorthop, so all I have to do is run up to someone (and for someone Samus' height, it can be a grounded person), shorthop and f-air without having to deal with said person's aerial or anti-aerial game, since the short hop is so... short.

SJC is the spin jump cancel.
Basically you start an over B and immediately press the jump button after letting go of B.
The result is that Sonic goes rocketing close to 3/4ths the size of FD at a speed greater than Wario.

Isn't that called spinshot?

Not to mention that he can take advantage of the spindash's invincibility frames to escape a move he normally would be struck by.
So for example in 0:05 the over B is supposed to hit him due to its hitbox. however the Sonic user (who sucks arse by the way) jumps during the initial hop allowing him to escape before the frames ran out.

..but this isn't spinshot. You can't delay to take Spin Dash's invincibility frames unless you just want to jump cancel the move and stop going forward. Or... maybe you've stopped talking about spinshot already.

DAC sends him close to half the distance across FD. The U smash also has invincibility frames during the actual ball so you cannot hit him out of it. You would have to hit him at the beginning of the U smash which actually clashes with decently prioritized moves.

I still don't think Sonic's usmash has invincibility frames. I've been hit out of it. You do mention the beginning being vulnerable, and my most recent fights, I remember something like that happening (clanking at the beginning), but I'm pretty sure a TL D-air hit me out of u-smash as I was 'in ball form'.

[edit]
I do realize that most of that was in Sonic's defense, but it was mostly to help get out of misconceptions that seem to be pissing ShadowLink off so much lol. But really imo, best way to get out of it and make this a meaningful thread is to go play one of the people in the Sonic boards in light of current metagame and come back here with more specific gameplay examples.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Isn't that called spinshot?

Its probably a result of semantics being confused.
I think of spinshotting as start a down B then pressing up as soon as you see the little blue aura
It sends him at an angle through the air at the same speed if you had charged it and also does not travel any horizontal distance.

SJC is where you do an over B and press jump after releasing the B button.
Sonic cancels the spindash and the initial momentum propels him forward in an arc at a high speed it also uses his double jump.

..but this isn't spinshot. You can't delay to take Spin Dash's invincibility frames unless you just want to jump cancel the move and stop going forward. Or... maybe you've stopped talking about spinshot already.

hmm?
no I wasn't referring to that as a spinshot at all.
Just that you can take advantage of the invincibility frames by jumping during ana ttack.
For example Fox is fire his laser at you constantly.
You over B and the invincibility frames pevent any damage. You then jump while you are still in the initial hop. You can still do it at anytime.
It was what the Sonic had done in 0:05.
Its not spinshotting but it is useful in avoiding moves that normally wou;ld hit you multiple times.
Its how I dodged a zelda' Fsmash.
Its not practical but it does show that Sonic doesn't just sue his over b as a method of attack.

I still don't think Sonic's usmash has invincibility frames. I've been hit out of it. You do mention the beginning being vulnerable, and my most recent fights, I remember something like that happening (clanking at the beginning), but I'm pretty sure a TL D-air hit me out of u-smash as I was 'in ball form'.

'

Really? When I was hit by TL's Dair while in ball form I wasn't affected. He simply continued down and then his body touched me and it knocked him up.
It did happen in the middle of the time I was in ball form so it may be like the spindash where it has invincibility at a certain point with high priority in the others.
Probably like the spindash it might have areas of high priority and invincibility.
I have yet to be hit out of a Usmash unless it was before I was in ball form.

I recommend you have Marth use his FS on Sonic during certain parts of his Usmash.

I can't do so since I don't have a second person to help me and I lack a wavebird. (or was it called something else)

 

[DeliciousCake]

I'm not gonna bother getting into this huge pissing contest, just gonna put in my two cents. I have only played one Sonic main in person, and he was good. I didn't lose, but it wasn't exactly as easy as my fellow ZSS players seem to be making it. I can distinguish Sonics spin moves, it's not all that hard to really, but he moves fast enough that it is difficult to plant a paralyzer bolt on him as he's dashing at you, especially since he does have invincibility frames on most of them. His forward-special lets him bounce around a great deal and it'll throw off your game if you aren't paying close enough attention and don't react fast enough. ZSS' forward-special isn't that great against Sonic at all, even if you consider it better than him because it has more priority/range/whatever. Sonic is fast, ZSS' forward special is not. In my matches I relied heavily on Up-smashing and aerials to KO and damage Sonic, while timing my paralyzers at points where Sonic couldn't readily charge up a spin.

In short, this is not as cookie-cutter as half of you are trying to make it seem.

 

[Tenki]

lmao people keep posting while I type

[edit]
^Not so sure about ZSS u-smash range, but I'll take what you said to mind and test it out later. It's actually one of the more useful things I've read concerning the match up. I don't know if you'll still check up on this, but did he use spring drops on you?

Also, thank you for approaching this beyond straw man examples.
[/edit]
-----------

Its probably a result of semantics being confused.
I think of spinshotting as start a down B then pressing up as soon as you see the little blue aura
It sends him at an angle through the air at the same speed if you had charged it and also does not travel any horizontal distance.

SJC is where you do an over B and press jump after releasing the B button.
Sonic cancels the spindash and the initial momentum propels him forward in an arc at a high speed it also uses his double jump.

Ah, no :3
what you describe as SJC is spinshot, and what you describe as spinshot is SJC (/jump-cancelling the charge)

Also, spinshot (fast/low travelling jump) can be done out of an aerial down-B just like you can with a side-B ^^;

Spin Shotting:
Initiate a down-b or side-b. After any amount of charging, release the charge and immediately hit either the jump button or a jump direction on the control stick. This will launch Sonic faster and at a lower angle than his normal jump, but will leave him without his second jump. Can be done both on the ground and in the air with side-b, only in the air with down-b. Can only launch in the forward direction. [Credited to InterimOfZeal]
[Video 1]

But I'll re-read your posts with your definitions of the moves in mind.

I have yet to be hit out of a Usmash unless it was before I was in ball form.
[insert rest of paragraph]

I'll check that out another time, but for now, since I don't use it much anyway, I won't assume its invincibility.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I love you Delicious cake. Christ that just screams Portal. @_@
I mean for what you said as well as the sig.
Is Samus the more dominant int he relation ship?
Anyway on topic.

I just find it incredibly ridiculous that people make it look as if the match is a massive disadvantage for Sonic.
I have played a good ZSS (or believe them to be0and I have both lost and won so it isn't a clear cut match as thio tries to make it appear.
The time I lost i found it was due to being more aggressive and the clashing of attacks wasn't working in my favor. There were also times where I should have maintained my distance and was punished. The defensive option worked better.
I think Sonic is capable of spacing this better than Zamus because of his great speed and physics exploits.

I had to maintain the spacing between myself I couldn't act aggressively and try to continously pressure since it result in my moves clashing more often than desired.

Her aerials do but prioritize but there are times in which when I timed my Nair right it resulted in both myself and my opponent being struck and knocked back.

I didn't really have an issue with the paralyzer bolt often mainly since I played more towards defensively and stayed outside the range.
I also faked my opponent out with a dashdance (one of the few times I actually did it correctly. Video can be youtube searched or just go to the sonic forum) and managed to get up close to grab and pummel then set her up for an aerial attack before moving out of her reach.


The time I lost i found it was due to being more aggressive and the clashing of attacks wasn't working in my favor. I had to force Zamus into behaving more aggressively in order to take advantage. When I behaved agro I usually clashed and lost the advantage i had to build up.

Ah, no :3
what you describe as SJC is spinshot, and what you describe as spinshot is SJC (/jump-cancelling the charge)

Also, spinshot (fast/low travelling jump) can be done out of an aerial down-B just like you can with a side-B ^^;

Yeah but I prefer the down B method.

Originally Posted by TwinkleToes View Post
Spin Shotting:
Initiate a down-b or side-b. After any amount of charging, release the charge and immediately hit either the jump button or a jump direction on the control stick. This will launch Sonic faster and at a lower angle than his normal jump, but will leave him without his second jump. Can be done both on the ground and in the air with side-b, only in the air with down-b. Can only launch in the forward direction. [Credited to InterimOfZeal]
[Video 1]
But I'll re-read your posts with your definitions of the moves in mind.

**** it
Ah well least it only means i mixed the terms and not what they actually were.

I'll check that out another time, but for now, since I don't use it much anyway, I won't assume its invincibility.

you... snipped...me....

Yeah when you mentioned T's Dair I became unsure as well.
I was more quick to call it invincibility though since unlike the case of spindash, I haven't had issues where I still was hit.

 

[Garde]

ShadowLink, I find your response angry and rude. I did not mean any offense in my post. Also, I never supported anyone else's claims in this thread, ever. All I did was state 3 facts about Sonic and that I would elaborate later on how this puts him at a disadvantage against ZSS.

Delicious Cake, I find almost every match I play against a skilled player to never be cookie cutter. It does not matter which character they play, I find that ZSS relies on a combination of up-close and spacing tactics that have unique balances in just about every match up. It also heavily depends upon the playstyle of the opponent, and one reason why I haven't touched ZSS in over a month (she requires a lot of work in order to be played competitively because each match up makes you play her differently).

I used to play against a Sonic main regularly, and I felt the match was rather one sided (in my favor). I am considerably more experienced than him, though, so that probably has more to do with my success against Sonic than character properties. I am familiar with all of those techniques you listed, but I do not know them by name. My friend uses them on me all the time and the only one that is actually effective against me is the side+B jump to aerial attack (again, he's not as good as me, so he is probably not employing them to their utmost potential).

Still, I'll elaborate on my earlier points.

1) Sonic has horrible reach. ShadowLink, I have NO clue how you consider his grab range good. He has a very small reach, and even with sliding, you need to be very precise in order to get grabs and pivot grabs correctly. I'm not saying that it's difficult for a skilled player, but there's no denying that his grab reach is, in fact, terrible.

Yes, he has ways to get in, but Sonic slows down a LOT in the air. He's not nearly as fast in the air as you make him out to be. I've tested against my Sonic friend a lot, and his air mobility, while decent, is around the same as ZSS's. If you take to the air, she will space you very easily. The spin technique needs to be used from outside ZSS's reach (even for side+B), meaning a good ZSS will not throw out side+B unless there is a good chance of it working. Instead, ZSS can rely on close range combat in the air, because Sonic's air moves are relatively cruddy (f-air being the exception in approaches but can be outreached with ZSS's attacks).

While he's on the ground, he is incredibly fast which makes spacing him near impossible.

However, see point 2...

2) Sonic has terrible priority. This is, for the most part, true. The only exceptions I have found are his up-smash, up-air, f-air and f-smash, which have very good to decent priority in order (to my knowledge). Up-smash does NOT have invincibility frames, you can test this EASILY by throwing bombs at Sonic (Link, TL, etc.). He has a disjointed hitbox that makes it hard to hit him, but you CAN hit him during hit active frames of up-smash.

Those 4 moves I listed are the only ones I've ever had any sort of difficulty hitting through with any of the characters I play (ZSS, Link, Zelda, and Lucario).

Yes, you can try to bait stuff from a ZSS player, or any player, but baiting only works as well as the player is foolish or unfamiliar with the match up. I haven't played a Sonic of equal skill to myself, so I don't know how easy it is for him to really bait things, as it is often me that is doing the baiting in this matchup versus my friend.

Having terrible priority makes this a difficult match for Sonic because even if he does get in close, ZSS's tilts have amazing priority (possibly her highest priority moves) and can almost always get her out of tight spots and help to space him away.

3) Sonic's moves are laggy. Very few of his moves are actually what I'd consider fast (hough ZSS suffers from the same problem). They either take a while before active frames (a hitbox) start, or are left in lag afterwards.

All of his special moves are laggy, all of his smashes are laggy aside from up-smash, and his air moves do not auto cancel (aside from the spring d-air trick). This means that if he throws out ANY move while ZSS is not in lag, he is likely to be punished.



On top of this, while his f-air does KO at 100% if ZSS is off the stage, actually landing the hit is much harder. She has invincibility on her down+B, is incredibly floaty, can tether from obscene distances, and if she down+Bs to get past an attempt at an edge guard, she can safely do a unique footstool jump that will carry her the entire distance of FD.


The main strategy I rely on against Sonic players is using high priority moves against them. It works amazingly well as his range is incredibly horrible. There is a common misconception that spamming side+B is somehow effective with ZSS. IT IS NOT. Good ZSS players use it to space people at appropriate times, and they use it against airborne opponents without air mobility better than ZSS's (Sonic's is near identical, so spacing with it midair is not very difficult when the opportunity arises).

Neutral B is fairly useless against Sonic, unless you're playing a laggy match over WFC, in which case you can really abuse it. I rarely use Paralyzer against anyone except for people that stupidly charge horizontal travelling moves (like Ike's Side+B).

Again, I have run out of time, but I will be back with more later.

Tenki, if you get to play on WFC again, I would love to get some friendlies in with you. They might not mean much, depending on lag, but I'd be willing to see what a better Sonic main can do so I can at least give out some meaningful pointers to my friend that mains Sonic.

 

[fkacyan]

Neutral B is fairly useless against Sonic, unless you're playing a laggy match over WFC, in which case you can really abuse it. I rarely use Paralyzer against anyone except for people that stupidly charge horizontal travelling moves (like Ike's Side+B).

I've found otherwise, as it cancels his spin moves at any charge, which means just keeping a bolt moving at most times will prevent a spin attack from reaching you. However, I play a campy game, so spacing with this, as well as the sideB, is something that's rather integral to my gameplay and isn't a Sonic-specific strategy.

 

[Garde]

The problem is that most Sonic players don't use their spin attacks to stay grounded. Yes, the paralyzer will stun a Sonic 100% of the time out of his specials, but a good Sonic player won't let that situation occur because they will often avoid the situation altogether.

If anything, I find SH Paralyzers to be the most effective against Sonic, which are still amazingly situational. Yes, they work, but they should only work on rare occasions against skilled Sonic players.

It really depends on how well you know your opponent and how much you're willing to bend your strategies to use something unexpected.



Also, my Sonic friend is relatively aggressive, and I also agree that for the most part, playing defensively is the key to winning, it seems to be a theme present in Brawl for the most part.

I'm not saying this match up is unbeatable for Sonic or anything, but I'm saying he needs to work a lot harder to actually win than ZSS does. Of course, Sonic players are used to working hard in the first place, as almost nothing is given to them on a silver platter.

EDIT: Did I say almost nothing? I meant nothing is given to them on a silver platter.

 

[Tenki]

1) Sonic has horrible reach. ShadowLink, I have NO clue how you consider his grab range good. He has a very small reach, and even with sliding, you need to be very precise in order to get grabs and pivot grabs correctly. I'm not saying that it's difficult for a skilled player, but there's no denying that his grab reach is, in fact, terrible.

Yes, he has ways to get in, but Sonic slows down a LOT in the air. He's not nearly as fast in the air as you make him out to be. I've tested against my Sonic friend a lot, and his air mobility, while decent, is around the same as ZSS's. If you take to the air, she will space you very easily. The spin technique needs to be used from outside ZSS's reach (even for side+B), meaning a good ZSS will not throw out side+B unless there is a good chance of it working. Instead, ZSS can rely on close range combat in the air, because Sonic's air moves are relatively cruddy (f-air being the exception in approaches but can be outreached with ZSS's attacks).

While he's on the ground, he is incredibly fast which makes spacing him near impossible.

IMO, his grab range is good, if you count the running-up-to-you-from-outside-your-range-during-your-lag as part of the grab. Personally, I still don't use pivot grab much, unless they're running at me, but even that is situational and something I should probably practice ._.;

Good points on the air game. ZSS's air game is something I'm not familiar with atm. If I may ask, how well would you say aerial ZSS deal with people in the following positions (don't you dare twist this):
In front of her?
Above her?
Behind her?
Under her?

I will not argue about priority, since it's an obvious thing that all Sonic players know about, and consequently try to find ways around xD

3) Sonic's moves are laggy. Very few of his moves are actually what I'd consider fast (hough ZSS suffers from the same problem). They either take a while before active frames (a hitbox) start, or are left in lag afterwards.

All of his special moves are laggy, all of his smashes are laggy aside from up-smash, and his air moves do not auto cancel (aside from the spring d-air trick). This means that if he throws out ANY move while ZSS is not in lag, he is likely to be punished.

SH F-air autocancels if you start F-air any time before the top of the hop.
N-air's landing lag is really small that people claim (and still claim) that it doesn't have any landing lag at all
I thought b-air and u-air cancel fairly quickly as well, or at least have low landing lag. Maybe u-air might have a bit of landing lag if not ac'd. I'll double check and either update this post (or if you've already replied to it by then, I'll reply accordingly)

As for startup time, b-air and d-air are the only slow aerials. N-air is not quite 'instant' (if you do it just as you touch the floor, it won't start, unlike other 'sexkicks'), but I usually try to trigger n-airs inside people, unless purposely going for a weak n-air, so I'd think it's fairly quick.

Or... I could just be used to it. lol.

As for specials...his spring is almost instant. There's a short time period where his ^b creates a spring that he can get hit out of, but the rest of the move is pretty quick + dodge/invincibility frames during the beginning of the jump. As a projectile, yes, it's slow.

Homing attack is laggy. Hands down. The only things it has going for it is a cancellable charge (limited control on that). Otherwise, it's hard to aim correctly and is easily punished when it misses.

For his spin dashes, the only 'laggy' things about them are their charge times and doing turn-arounds (something that Sonic players should try to avoid, since it leaves a time when he doesn't have an attack box). Side-B's hop is crappy as an offensive move (from a distance) since it slows Sonic down and tells the opponent that it's coming, even more than just charging the attack. Down-B is much quicker, since a grounded one just goes straight forward without the hopping nonsense.

On top of this, while his f-air does KO at 100% if ZSS is off the stage, actually landing the hit is much harder. She has invincibility on her down+B, is incredibly floaty, can tether from obscene distances, and if she down+Bs to get past an attempt at an edge guard, she can safely do a unique footstool jump that will carry her the entire distance of FD.


The main strategy I rely on against Sonic players is using high priority moves against them. It works amazingly well as his range is incredibly horrible. There is a common misconception that spamming side+B is somehow effective with ZSS. IT IS NOT. Good ZSS players use it to space people at appropriate times, and they use it against airborne opponents without air mobility better than ZSS's (Sonic's is near identical, so spacing with it midair is not very difficult when the opportunity arises).

Neutral B is fairly useless against Sonic, unless you're playing a laggy match over WFC, in which case you can really abuse it. I rarely use Paralyzer against anyone except for people that stupidly charge horizontal travelling moves (like Ike's Side+B).

Again, I have run out of time, but I will be back with more later.

Tenki, if you get to play on WFC again, I would love to get some friendlies in with you. They might not mean much, depending on lag, but I'd be willing to see what a better Sonic main can do so I can at least give out some meaningful pointers to my friend that mains Sonic.

I'll keep this post's contents in mind, too.

Like I said in a previous post, I'm more of an analyst than a fighter ^^; I may have changed the Ganondorf vs Sonic match-up, but there are definitely much better Sonic players than myself.

Since noone seems to be checking out the matchmaking threads I posted, I'll just give you some names to PM, and I'm sure they'll be more than willing to play:
Boxob (...imo is better than me, well rounded as a Smash player too ^^)
InterimOfZeal (one of the earlier Sonic pioneers)
___X___ (placed 2nd in a tournament somewhere)
darkNES386 (makes alot of videos, but from what I hear, he's a good Sonic player too)
BlueTerrorist (the guy who's in charge of the Sonic matchup thread)

 

[ShadowLink84]

ShadowLink, I find your response angry and rude. I did not mean any offense in my post. Also, I never supported anyone else's claims in this thread, ever. All I did was state 3 facts about Sonic and that I would elaborate later on how this puts him at a disadvantage against ZSS.

Of course its angry and rude, it was meant to be angry and rude. you honestly cannot blame me for the responses that have been presented. It was similar to the Ganondorf board that said, just jab him away and you're fine. Its frustrating in general when people automatically assume a characters gamestyle despite knowing so very little.
I apologize to you since you did nothing wrong but I do not believe my frustration twas unjustified.


Not only because I am a Sonic main but in general since each time I visit SWF such responses appear all too common.

If it seemed as if I was angry at you directly then I apologize.

1) Sonic has horrible reach. ShadowLink, I have NO clue how you consider his grab range good. He has a very small reach, and even with sliding, you need to be very precise in order to get grabs and pivot grabs correctly. I'm not saying that it's difficult for a skilled player, but there's no denying that his grab reach is, in fact, terrible.

Actually I disagree His grab range is actually among the better ones.

His grabbing range is roughly twice that of the IC's who have one of the smallest grabs so Ic annot understand why you believeit to be so small.
It is only slightly smaller than Marth/Snake grab range.
That isn't very small at all.

I tried it on Wario on FD in the very center of the stage.

Sonic can grab roughly where the two sides meet. A little bit more to the side just barely outside of where his hands meet during the grab.
Marth grabs near or on the corner, not much larger than Sonic.

The IC had to move roughly twice as close to Wario before they could grab him.
Sonic's dash-shield grab is clsoe to the same Marth's (mostly due to sliding)

His grab range is far from very small.

Yes, he has ways to get in, but Sonic slows down a LOT in the air. He's not nearly as fast in the air as you make him out to be. I've tested against my Sonic friend a lot, and his air mobility, while decent, is around the same as ZSS's.

Yes while Sonic does have a lsightly higher base air speed its not as noticable as wario's.

This was tested on FD without taking into account any moves that increase the speed of horizontal distance.
SJC and spinshotting are used most often for aerial travel though so it isn't as if Sonic will be falling down by near ZSS very often.

If you take to the air, she will space you very easily. The spin technique needs to be used from outside ZSS's reach (even for side+B), meaning a good ZSS will not throw out side+B unless there is a good chance of it working. Instead, ZSS can rely on close range combat in the air, because Sonic's air moves are relatively cruddy (f-air being the exception in approaches but can be outreached with ZSS's attacks).

Actually the Nair is quite useful. You'll have to experiment to get the timing down but the Nair is better than we often give credit for (I've more often found myself Fairing when a Nair would work better. Main;ly because of the duration of the Nair as well as the lack of cooldown time upon landing).
As I mentioned earlier most aerial travel is from Spincharge/dash to aerial. Rarely does a sonic just dash then jump since he doesn't have much speed in comparison to the ground.

He isn't going to be in range of her aerials very often unless he is trying to pursue her and usually its from an angle below where he is less likely to clash with her attacks. He will always remain outside her reach but just enough so that he can more easily punish her when she attempts to close in or use a move from a distance.
I've mentioned this earlier in my posts.
The ideal strategy against Zamus is to maintain spacing and to control the pace of the game.
Which means the clashes between her aerial game and Zamus will be minimal.
I don't understand why you consider Sonic's aerial game crappy. I find it better than a good amount of the cast.

While he's on the ground, he is incredibly fast which makes spacing him near impossible.

However, see point 2...

2) Sonic has terrible priority. This is, for the most part, true. The only exceptions I have found are his up-smash, up-air, f-air and f-smash, which have very good to decent priority in order (to my knowledge). Up-smash does NOT have invincibility frames, you can test this EASILY by throwing bombs at Sonic (Link, TL, etc.). He has a disjointed hitbox that makes it hard to hit him, but you CAN hit him during hit active frames of up-smash.

That conflicts with the report given by a sonic main in the forums. He said he used the U smash as Snake detonated a C4 explosive and came out unharmed. I believe the hitbox for the V4 is roughly the same as Link's bombs.

I have mentioned the aerial priority issue , the best way to minimize it is via spacing and defensive play. SO as to lessen he chance of the moves clashing with each other, something Sonic cannot afford since he is on the light side of the weight spectrum. ON the ground of course its more difficult but Sonic never is going to attack an enemy directly. Its usually a suicide attempt.

I'll try it out concerning the Usmash. Most likely it is as you said which is why I had doubts when Tenki mentioned being struck by TL's Dair.

Yes, you can try to bait stuff from a ZSS player, or any player, but baiting only works as well as the player is foolish or unfamiliar with the match up. I haven't played a Sonic of equal skill to myself, so I don't know how easy it is for him to really bait things, as it is often me that is doing the baiting in this matchup versus my friend.

Baiting isn't as easy to opull off with Sonic. I mentioned earlier in response to Delicious cake how I managed to bait my opponent with a dashdance.
however not only is the dashdance difficult to pull off it cannot be used very often since it can be caught onto very easily. Not to mention if you screw up you'll usually be punished. I find relying ont he Usmash to be better.

Having terrible priority makes this a difficult match for Sonic because even if he does get in close, ZSS's tilts have amazing priority (possibly her highest priority moves) and can almost always get her out of tight spots and help to space him away.

yes which is why he'll play defensively. this isn't to say that she won't be capable of pushing him away with her tilts, however it does help his chances in the fight. I've also manage to put ASC to good use since I have managed to catch my opponent off guard by grabbing them immediately from an ASC since they usually believe i'll continue into the grounded SC rather than into a grab.
Sonic has to play to open up on the exploits of the character. He really needs to maintain the spacing in this game in order to maintain the advantage. Not only because he can make use of spinshotting and SJC, but also to limit the options that the ZSS has in approaching him.

3) Sonic's moves are laggy. Very few of his moves are actually what I'd consider fast (hough ZSS suffers from the same problem). They either take a while before active frames (a hitbox) start, or are left in lag afterwards.

All of his special moves are laggy, all of his smashes are laggy aside from up-smash, and his air moves do not auto cancel (aside from the spring d-air trick). This means that if he throws out ANY move while ZSS is not in lag, he is likely to be punished.
[/quote
Actually you can avoid the lag of a Fair but it requires you perform the move immediately upon shorthopping.
The special moves while laggy do not necessarily harm him because of the speed at which they move as well as the exploits I have mentioned above. It is why I really do not consider them laggy since the SJC and spinshot can be performed quickly.

The Usmash is laggy. The start up time is quite annoying. Its similar to the Fsmash in that the start up time is longer than the actual cooldown time of the move. While the actual hitting animation quick. I don't know why you said the Usmash is an exception to the rule.


I dislike the term autocanceling since it conjures up the idea of Link's Zair which immediately ends regardless if the move is in progress and allows him to immediately attack.
Its more of abusing the animation of the move. Where as soon as the animation ends the character can immediately perform an action. Its more towards buffering and similar to how they cancel the crouching of Link's SHFF

On top of this, while his f-air does KO at 100% if ZSS is off the stage, actually landing the hit is much harder. She has invincibility on her down+B, is incredibly floaty, can tether from obscene distances, and if she down+Bs to get past an attempt at an edge guard, she can safely do a unique footstool jump that will carry her the entire distance of FD.

I haven't been able to pull off the footstool as consistently though this is probably due to my timing and I just don't se eit occurring very often during a match. you probably have better timing than myself though.

In order for Sonic to pull off a Fair or Bair on Zamus while she is off the stage it requires very good prediction which is why i mentioned he cannot gimp her very easily. Any attempt to edge guard her will usually fail.
As such you end up relying on the Uair, Fsmash, and Dsmash to get your kills as wel as the Bair though it is not often used in comparison.

I also find that in this case the Nair becomes more useful, in this match. You can SHFF it without a great risk of lag and the initial animation of the attack has a significant amount of knockback and has some priority.

The main strategy I rely on against Sonic players is using high priority moves against them. It works amazingly well as his range is incredibly horrible. There is a common misconception that spamming side+B is somehow effective with ZSS. IT IS NOT. Good ZSS players use it to space people at appropriate times, and they use it against airborne opponents without air mobility better than ZSS's (Sonic's is near identical, so spacing with it midair is not very difficult when the opportunity arises).

Most of the time when I play ZSS I usually take advantage of the speed gained from my spindashes when it comes to aerial so as to avoid ending up in range of Zamus' aerial moves.
The priority issue really does hurt Sonic but it lessens once defensive play is involved. Of course it doesn't remove the problem all togehter its just too great a weakness.

Yes the over B can be used in midair since Sonic's base air movement isn't a great contrast but it isn't very often that the opportunity would arise.
Not only that I find that the move is telegraphed and on more than one occasion I have manage to avoid the attack by making use of my spring and then Dairing ot the ground.

Attacking from below Zamus works well since the clap of Sonic's Uair outranges her Dair.
I also normally don't stay in the air for too long. Even if the Dair does lag somewhat I usually perform it so that even if I do lag, I usually a have enough time to recover and continue maintaining my spacing from her.

Basically I play Zamus as if where were a lesser version of Luigi. When I can, I take it aerially otherwise and immediately go back tot he ground.
Make use of Sonic's throws (particularly his D throw and U throw since both set the opponent up for chasing pretty well from my experience)


Don't worry Tenki I always check your posts.
Even if you consider yourself an analyst I still think you are a good Sonic.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Good points on the air game. ZSS's air game is something I'm not familiar with atm. If I may ask, how well would you say aerial ZSS deal with people in the following positions (don't you dare twist this):
In front of her?
Above her?
Behind her?
Under her?

Just decided I might as well answer this:

First off, ZSS' N-air hits in a circle around her, same as with her f-smash. It has good priority so it's a great fall-back move if you want to surprise your opponent. Its KO potential is almost nil, since it has almost no knockback. It does have a slight hitstun.

ZSS' F-air has two hits, the first being weak and the second more powerful. It can KO, but sometimes you may miss the second kick if you're rising or falling too fast. Good priority.

D-air. Just like Sonic's. Personally, I hate it. I've suicided with it multiple times. It's hard to cancel out of (from my own experience.)

ZSS' U-air. It's like sex, if sex were an amazing aerial move. Hits in the front, above, and partially behind ZSS. So you've got 5/8 coverage with one move. Amazing priority, amazing KO potential. U-air is pretty much the epitome of ZSS' aerial game.

B-air. What can I say about it? Awesome. Instantaneous, powerful, pretty much the U-air concentrated in one sexy area.

Onto positions:
Front -Three options: F-air, N-air, U-air. You've got great coverage.
Above - Your opponent is asking to die if they allow themselves to get in range of your U-air. Also, you can throw your Up-special in there to drag them down into you for a B-air or spike them off the bottom.
Behind - If you can nail that B-air you're good to go.
Below - I hate having an opponent under me. Rarely I'll throw in a D-air to surprise my opponent, but normally I'll try and fall into a better positions. Maybe resort to a Down-special into a kick.

Hopefully that covers ZSS' basic aerial game for you. She's got great moves and is **** sexy performing them.

 

[fkacyan]

The problem is that most Sonic players don't use their spin attacks to stay grounded. Yes, the paralyzer will stun a Sonic 100% of the time out of his specials, but a good Sonic player won't let that situation occur because they will often avoid the situation altogether.

This is the idea. The second they're in the air, they have far fewer options to deal with ZSS, who has a much better air game. If they stay on the ground, they get hit out of the spin attack and can get combod into the air by a dashattack to uptilt.

So, if Sonic can't win an air battle, and can't start a ground battle, where does that leave him? Oh, and let's not forget what happens on a level with platforms (i.e. everything except Final Destination).

 

[Garde]

I have to admit, I was wrong about Sonic's grab range. After Tenki also confirmed his grab range wasn't horrible, I took it upon myself to test it and he does, in fact, have a good grab range.

Good points on the air game. ZSS's air game is something I'm not familiar with atm. If I may ask, how well would you say aerial ZSS deal with people in the following positions (don't you dare twist this):
In front of her?
Above her?
Behind her?
Under her?

First, I think DeliciousCake summed up her air moves nicely. However, her biggest weakness is that her attacks' hitboxes last only 2 frames while the moves last closer to 20-30, which means that they are easily spot dodged, air dodged, or shielded so that she may be punished. She also does not have any auto-canceling moves, making her have to be careful about throwing them out low to the ground.

I honestly don't know how I could twist this. Anyway, ZSS has a "good" air game, but she is by no means unstoppable in the air. MK and Marth both have disjointed hitboxes and at least as good reach on their attacks, which makes it very difficult for her to fight them in the air while close-up. Against most other characters, she does very well in the air, provided she is not above her opponent.


That's another thing I want to talk about... Very few characters have safe options when they're above their opponent. As a general rule in ALL of the SSB games, up-airs, up-smashes, and up-tilts generally beat out d-airs. Obviously not all up-smashes or up-tilts, or even up-airs are going to win 100% of the time, but generally up attacks vs someone above you are going to win (provided it's timed properly). This makes being above your opponent a bad place to be for almost anyone. There are a few exceptions, like how Pit and MK have their glide attacks which will go through just about anything, and several others, but I'm just saying that most characters do not have anything reliable when above an opponent.


Another thing I want to cover is what "auto-canceling" really is. Auto-canceling is like what ShadowLink said it was. His example was Link's z-air, which will automatically cancel as soon as you land, regardless of which frame in the move you were in when you hit the ground. Using an attack in the air and having it finish before you land is not autocanceling.

Tenki, you stated that Sonic's f-air will finish before he lands if he uses it immediately as soon as he SHs. The problem with this is that you must throw the move out early, or be extremely close to the opponent in order for them not to react to it. The only problem is that ZSS can hit you out of a SH before you can f-air if you're in range for the first part of it to hit. If you're out of range in the beginning, she can SH away and side+B you while you're in the middle of your f-air because now you're stuck in air without your incredible mobility. Ideally, you'd want to use this after ZSS has already done something that leaves her vulnerable, in which case you'd be pretty safe, but then that's not what makes auto-canceling as useful as it is.

As for Sonic's specials, I am going into training mode to use the right terms. I think I've been saying side+B when in fact I've meant down+B... Let me check for a moment (I have never played as Sonic,, I only play against him often)... So, I just tested out the move, and I was in fact talking about side+B. My friend often uses it while I'm airborne to close distance set up into juggles via up-air. I don't know how wise of a decision that is on his part. Also, I just did some testing on his up-smash, and it appears as though he does have a few frames of invincibility while near the top of the up-smash, but not throughout the entire duration of the up-smash while in ball form. So you were right, ShadowLink.

I have a question about Sonic's tilts. My friend never uses them, so I don't know how good they are priority-wise. They don't seem to be too slow/laggy, so I guess it comes down to their priority (which is probably bad ). Btw, Sonic is pretty fun to play... >.>

The Usmash is laggy. The start up time is quite annoying. Its similar to the Fsmash in that the start up time is longer than the actual cooldown time of the move. While the actual hitting animation quick. I don't know why you said the Usmash is an exception to the rule.

While it has a lot of start up, it is very high priority, and you can use it from a run. Because of this, you can get the start up frames over before you're ever in range of your opponent, making it a pretty safe move to use when approaching, especially an airborne opponent. Also, because it is multi-hit, it has a much better chance of shield poking someone, making it fairly safe to use against shielding opponents (it will certainly hit spot dodgers). That is why I said it was an exception to the rule, because although it is laggy, there are things about it that make it much safer than the other 2 smashes, though it lacks horribly in KO potential.

I haven't been able to pull off the footstool as consistently though this is probably due to my timing and I just don't se eit occurring very often during a match. you probably have better timing than myself though.

The footstool jump does not happen often because most characters cannot afford to go out very far to gimp ZSS's recovery. For those that can gimp her far off stage, they often find ZSS back on stage after a well-timed down+B footstool. A lot of people I play against don't even bother edge guarding me anymore as it resulted in more gimp KOs for themselves than it did for me. This probably has more to do with the skill difference between me and my friends (I am unfortunately the best in my group by a noticeable margin allowing me to get away with things I probably shouldn't be able to).



After playing AS him and not against him, I can see his potential to really punish ZSS. I will send out some PMs later to see if I can get some friendlies. I still, however, think the match is overall in ZSS's favor, though not by as much as I originally thought.


EDIT: Thio, the problem is that the gun is incredibly laggy and Sonic will be able to close distance and hit you before you can do anything, if they play their cards right, otherwise they can just jump out of their spinning moves and get far away from you again until they can approach and hit you.

And yes, smaller platformed stages tend to put Sonic at a disadvantage because it doesn't allow him to use his mobility nearly as well.

 

[Adapt]

I did some testing... sonic's up-smash and to a lesser extent his d-smash appear to be invincible for part (but not all) of their animation. Ike's f-smash will go right through sonic (up-smash) and do nothing if sonic is near the apex of his jump. Once I got sonic to take the damage without the knockback, but I couldnt repeat that

I can't do any more precise testing because I am by myself, and its hard to get it exact timing when balancing 2 controllers

Also, I haven't found sonic to be too much trouble, I think ZSS has an advantage, but not a large one. i find that Zamus's dash attach will beat out sonic's forward-B spin attack, (i'm not sure about the down-B)
dash attack to u-tilt works well it seems. Also, spring drops aren't great because both up-smash, up-b, and u-tilt will cancel them, and if I recall, u-air will as well, but I'm not certain. You just have refrain from using laggy moves like grab and f-smash and it seems to work ok.

Disclaimer: I haven't played a truly good sonic (seeing as i'm only a mediocre Zamus)


P.S. Garde: The twisting potential is kinda obvious for anyone with their mind in the gutter (i.e. me) think of the word "positions", and all it's meanings

 

[fkacyan]

Thio, the problem is that the gun is incredibly laggy and Sonic will be able to close distance and hit you before you can do anything, if they play their cards right,

I know how laggy the gun is, but given the fact that I'm as far from them as I can be, his only real attack option is a dash attack, and ZSS can easily bair a Sonic that lands a dash attack, especially since the edge that I keep behind me will tend to stop him from flying off the stage. If he does go off of the stage, he managed to hit me with a dash attack, and that's all he'll be getting from that particular combo.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I know how laggy the gun is, but given the fact that I'm as far from them as I can be, his only real attack option is a dash attack

Spinshot to Bair.


I've played TWO Zamus' EVER so I can't give much of an opinion. Especially since 1 was a Sonic user testing Zamus out and another had a broken Wii for a month and couldn't practice. So take that Spinshot thing with a grain of salt.

 

[fkacyan]

Spinshot to Bair.


I've played TWO Zamus' EVER so I can't give much of an opinion. Especially since 1 was a Sonic user testing Zamus out and another had a broken Wii for a month and couldn't practice. So take that Spinshot thing with a grain of salt.

Yeah, I really don't see a Bair making contact that easily.

 

[Snakeee]

I should be the best to know the match up really because I play against Wes of DA, who is probably the best Sonic main. Well, actually I haven't played him too much so I'm not 100% on it yet.

It is actually a pretty awkward match up and I've had some trouble with him, but me and Wes usually go about even I think. I basically try to keep him at bay by retreating a lot, but hes insanely fast. His lack of priority isn't really that big of a deal against ZSS, because some of her priority is even worse. What seems to work the best is spacing good paralyzer shots in because it breaks his B moves and creates an opening, and then you can follow up with something such as a dash attack combo. The thing that annoys me a lot vs. Sonic is that his d air seems to even break your Up-B, so he messes up your aerial game a lot.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yeah, I really don't see a Bair making contact that easily.

I do it during Zamus' gun lag quite a bit. Never seem to have a problem with it.

 

[ph00tbag]

- Punish her after a whiffed whip attack and whiffed grab as usual. LOL if she uses Dair and misses.

The only whip attack that has enough lag for you to consistently punish is Fsmash, and trust me when I say that you will not get many opportunities to do that.

Honestly, if approaching with shield, Spin Dash and JC usmashes is all that a Sonic can do to approach ZSS, then she's definitely going to have an advantage. All of those options except the shield have a fair bit of lag, so Zamus can see them coming. Zamus can far outcamp Sonic, so he's going to have to close the gap, and unlike MK and Marth, he can only rely on long-startup ground attacks.

This match-up is going to depend on who can get whom in the air first, and with Sonic's apparently narrow field of options, Zamus has a better chance of doing that. Sonic's best bet against an approach from below is UpB, so that really works in Zamus' favor.

All in all, I'd predict that ZSS has a slight adavantage over Sonic, but not that much, more because she has a better approach strategy.

I can't help but find it kind of offensive that Sonic mains come to the ZSS forums to ask ZSS mains our opinions, and then the moment we give an opinion they find unpalatable, they yell at us, as if they own the place. Just sayin'.

 

[Tenki]

The only whip attack that has enough lag for you to consistently punish is Fsmash, and trust me when I say that you will not get many opportunities to do that.

Honestly, if approaching with shield, Spin Dash and JC usmashes is all that a Sonic can do to approach ZSS, then she's definitely going to have an advantage. All of those options except the shield have a fair bit of lag, so Zamus can see them coming. Zamus can far outcamp Sonic, so he's going to have to close the gap, and unlike MK and Marth, he can only rely on long-startup ground attacks.

This match-up is going to depend on who can get whom in the air first, and with Sonic's apparently narrow field of options, Zamus has a better chance of doing that. Sonic's best bet against an approach from below is UpB, so that really works in Zamus' favor.

All in all, I'd predict that ZSS has a slight adavantage over Sonic, but not that much, more because she has a better approach strategy.

I can't help but find it kind of offensive that Sonic mains come to the ZSS forums to ask ZSS mains our opinions, and then the moment we give an opinion they find unpalatable, they yell at us, as if they own the place. Just sayin'.

-Grab is punishable too, don't forget that one. I'll make note of the side-B not being too punishable, post-lag wise. When this thread gets more information, I'll edit the first post with all the good points and send BlueTerrorist a revised version of the matchup with information from ZSS' side, and you guys can take whatever information you want. :3

- SH f-airs are also some Sonic approaches, since they shieldpoke through tall players and have higher priority than some of Sonic's other attacks. I think his SH goes higher than Zamus' projectiles..? Either way, Spin-shotted aerials/air-dodges (they're like... aerials that travel through the air really fast) are other approaches you didn't make mention of a counterattack for.

Also, on the 'long startup ground attacks', Down-B closes gaps quicker than side-B, since Side-b's "startup" forces a hop (IMO not a move to approach offensively with, like shown in that video lol), while down-B goes straight into a roll. Run+shield grab is another approach, and dash attack starts instantly. Tilts are pretty quick too. His slowest ground moves are his smashes.

- DeliciousCake did a quick primer on ZSS' aerials (or at least, how well she deals with people in different directions in midair), so I'll keep that information in mind with your comments about her air game.

- On the angry Sonic mains comment, I agree, it's kinda rude to come in asking for help on a matchup and then bashing people who turn it against our favor. Really, if our matchup thread says that Sonic has an advantage while you guys strongly disagree, I'll take it to mind and point out our flaws. However, I think ShadowLink was pissed off because of the straw man examples given at the beginning of the thread. It's something that Sonic players have to deal with in almost any matchup discussion - "sonic has low priority","______ move will easily stop his approach", and usually citing some example that assume a really nooby Sonic player, or not taking more 'realistic' approaches in mind x.x; In the Ganondorf forum, it used to be said that "Thunder storming (lagless d-air) and jab easily stop Sonic's approaches", assuming that Sonic's only viable approaches were spin dashes and ground attacks... and then a certain Sonic main had a match with the thread owner and the Ganon vs Sonic matchup did a complete reversal to Sonic's favor ever since.

It's kinda like us saying "lol ZSS is ezpz. all she does is spam neutral b and side b to try to space u. powershield and grab, then gimp her (so ez) bc she has tether recovery lolol"

I personally don't want the match-up thread in the Sonic section to misrepresent and assume a nooby ZSS player that uses moves incorrectly, and I think it would be fair to expect the same ^^;

 

[ph00tbag]

-Grab is punishable too, don't forget that one. I'll make note of the side-B not being too punishable, post-lag wise. When this thread gets more information, I'll edit the first post with all the good points and send BlueTerrorist a revised version of the matchup with information from ZSS' side, and you guys can take whatever information you want. :3

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you must not play many good ZSS mains. If you did, you'd know that a good ZSS will only use her grab out of a stun. We know our grab is bad, contrary to popular belief, and avoid using it accordingly.

Otherwise, I'm getting the impression that the comments in the Sonic match-up thread are short-changing Sonic's approach. From what you've said, I'd say SH fair is his only really safe approach, since Zamus will either intercept other aerials, or u-tilt out of shield in response. Just make sure you're going to poke the shield, otherwise you will get hit with a utilt. I'd also put Dash attack and SC grab in there, but with both, you have to be careful of spot-dodges and pivot dsmashes. In general, be aware of the potential of a pivot dsmash, as it may also be a counter to aerial approaches.

According to one or two people who have posted here, ZSS's dash attack out-prioritizes spindash, for what it's worth, and considering the dash-attack's slew of follow-ups, I'd say this is a force to be reckoned with.

I'm going to say this now: ZSS's dsmash, ForwardB and UpB all have very, very little ending lag, and thus punishing them is much more difficult than you would think. Furthermore, uair, nair and bair autocancel, or have nearly 0 landing lag. In general, these are the moves you're going to see used, and you should be aware of that. You don't need to tell people to punish her grab, because that's a given. Instead, you should think about how to deal with her low end-lag attacks, and how to avoid being hit by them.

 

[Tenki]

^good stuff, I'll keep those in mind and check it out.

@me: I've only rarely fought ZSS users, and I'm not sure if ZSS was their main at all, actually.

My comments so far have either been correcting a misconception on Sonic's moves, or asking questions/hypothetical situations. My only knowledge of ZSS comes from training mode and messing around with her moves so I know what they look like. Honestly, I don't know her metagame at all, thanks for clarifying.

I re-read the matchup from the Sonic side. Honestly, I don't treat SH f-airs so much as an 'aerial' approach, since it's so closely tied with my ground moves. I think the 'aerial approaches' he's talking about are referring to full hops and spring approaches, which, from comments from ZSS mains, do sound like bad ideas vs ZSS u-smash and up-B.