ZSS Frame Data! *60% COMPLETE*

[DeliciousCake]

http://smash.scribblewiki.com/Zamus

UPDATE: 4:37 PM EST - Added air dodge frames

4:13 PM EST - You're probably asking "Hey, how come you only got around to getting 5% more data on frames? Well, it's because I added more stuff that I want to get data for. Currently finished today are: Paralyzer (baby and charged), Plasma Whip, and Grab.

Well, GofG and Foxy have started compiling frame data for Brawl! I have been given rights to gathering the frame data of ZSS. However, it's a slow and tedious process and I am going about it very slowly. Hopefully Foxy will get around to ZSS before I finish and get it done quicker. Right now all I have is the data on her spot dodge and forward roll dodge.

4/10 - Frame data is now available for all dodges, tilts, and smashes.

4/9 - What I have noticed from just these few pieces of data I have collected so far is that ZSS' rolls and spot dodge are absolutely HORRENDOUS. Notice that she doesn't gain invulnerability until her dodge is nearly 1/3 of the way completed.

 

[fkacyan]

...

This makes a lot of sense.

 

[Gamue]

I'm curious. How do you obtain frame data for Brawl?

 

[DeliciousCake]

Secret. ~_^

 

[Gamue]

Not the answer I was expecting, but ok.

*edit* I should have said this before. Is it a secret because it actually requires something special to do, and you don't want every Joe knowing something you guys had to work to figure out? That would be perfectly understandable.

Or, is it a secret because it's actually something obvious, like using the replay (which I haven't messed with yet), and you're just making fun of me?

If it's the latter, you are welcome to continue making fun of me, but please do it in a way that also answers my question, and then makes fun of me. I will also accept the use of nicknames, and sarcasm is fine as well.

 

[ph00tbag]

http://smash.scribblewiki.com/Zamus

Well, GofG and Foxy have started compiling frame data for Brawl! I have been given rights to gathering the frame data of ZSS. However, it's a slow and tedious process and I am going about it very slowly. Hopefully Foxy will get around to ZSS before I finish and get it done quicker. Right now all I have is the data on her spot dodge and forward roll dodge.

What I have noticed from just these few pieces of data I have collected so far is that ZSS' rolls and spot dodge are absolutely HORRENDOUS. Notice that she doesn't gain invulnerability until her dodge is nearly 1/3 of the way completed.

Her roll-dodge is so bad. I've seen how bad they are just looking at them in slo-mo. In genral, though, roll dodges are **** in this game, from what I've seen.

 

[Gamue]

Nevermind. After reading some other posts on the subject, it sounds like it isn't something that anyone can just do with some free time.

I'm glad you three are taking the time to do it, though.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Nevermind. After reading some other posts on the subject, it sounds like it isn't something that anyone can just do with some free time.

I'm glad you three are taking the time to do it, though.

From what I've talked to GofG on the subject, Foxy can actually put down 1 character per half hour of work. So far he's done the first row I believe.

 

[Gamue]

That's pretty impressive. It takes me a lot longer to do knockback testing for a character, and I'm only really accurate to within 5%, since I'm using Brawl's knockback formula and some "launcher speed" data. I'm not sure if the results are really all that usefull, but it's fun.

 

[DeliciousCake]

I'm really not going to bother with knockback, since the lack of combo ability in Brawl doesn't call for it.

 

[Garde]

I've definitely noticed that ZSS's dodges in general suck. In particular, her roll is what really kills me. I've pretty stopped trying to use it to avoid getting hit because it seems the invincibility frames are very short so if you mistime your roll, you're totally screwed.

Her spot dodge you need to do a bit early, but at least it recovers faster than the roll, imho.

 

[Eten]

I always felt that ZSS's dodges sucked. Now I can know for sure.

Also, that utilt is fast! It is now officially the best move to punish people who roll with.

 

[DeliciousCake]

I always felt that ZSS's dodges sucked. Now I can know for sure.

Also, that utilt is fast! It is now officially the best move to punish people who roll with.

Sure it comes out fast, but the recovery is **** slow.

 

[Eten]

It cut off my post earlier, but what are the chances of analyzing different moves' IASA frames?

 

[DarkShadowRage]

Wouldn't this allow people who really get into this to pretty much own us with ease? :/

 

[DeliciousCake]

Wouldn't this allow people who really get into this to pretty much own us with ease? :/

No, it allows us to know how to time our dodges/rolls/attacks. What we've learned now is that when you need to spot dodge, do it earlier than normal, because your invincibility frames won't show up until a few moments after you hit dodge. As goes for everything else, this is all about timing. Since you know when your hitboxes will come out, you know whether or not you need to do something while your opponent is on the approach, or whether you can wait for them to get close and whack them with a faster attack.

@Eten: Yeah I suppose it's possible, but what moves does ZSS have that have IASA frames?

 

[DarkShadowRage]

No, it allows us to know how to time our dodges/rolls/attacks. What we've learned now is that when you need to spot dodge, do it earlier than normal, because your invincibility frames won't show up until a few moments after you hit dodge. As goes for everything else, this is all about timing. Since you know when your hitboxes will come out, you know whether or not you need to do something while your opponent is on the approach, or whether you can wait for them to get close and whack them with a faster attack.

@Eten: Yeah I suppose it's possible, but what moves does ZSS have that have IASA frames?

I guess that makes a bit more sense, thanks for clearing that up for me. XD

 

[Garde]

DeliciousCake, I've noticed that air dodges are missing from frame data on all the characters on scribblewiki. Are air dodges identical across everyone or were they just forgotten?

 

[Ørion]

The game runs at 60 fps, right?

 

[DeliciousCake]

DeliciousCake, I've noticed that air dodges are missing from frame data on all the characters on scribblewiki. Are air dodges identical across everyone or were they just forgotten?

We aren't sure yet, I'll get around to testing ZSS' soon.

The game runs at 60 fps, right?

Yes.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Added air dodge frame data.

 

[Eten]

Her dash attack, at least, has IASA frames, to uptilt. Also, reading around I've heard that actually a LOT of moves have minor IASA frames- a good portion of many attack animations last until you return to a "neutral" stance, but most of that animation is interruptible. Most people just use it naturally, without even realizing. But since it's deceptive no one quite knows how much they can cut off, and since the fastest way to execute things is to just have perfect timing... no buffering, you know...

I don't know how you're getting the frame data. You could either be looking for when Zamus completes her animation, which leaves the possibility of IASA frames on just about everything, or you could be recording it as soon as the animation is interruptable. Two different values, and the later is a lot more useful than the former.

 

[k4polo]

good stuff DeliciousCake. This is useful to me. I know how fast some moves are but having the frames helps me alot more. Now I know exactly how fast they are and hit states which always helps.

 

[Garde]

Great job on the frame data so far, you're coming along pretty well! Those aerials are probably going to be a nightmare, so good luck with those.

 

[Ørion]

Are you going to put the taunts frame data?

 

[DeliciousCake]

I could put taunts if everyone wanted them, just that they won't really help flesh out ZSS' game.

 

[Magus420]

One of the methods is very precise, but takes a ****ing long time. The other takes much less time, but you will be off by one frame 50% of the time.

It shouldn't take any longer to do it the correct way. With VDub+AviSynth separate fields script you go from capturing the video to counting the frames in the now deinterlaced 59.94fps video in a matter of seconds. Dunno what this super secret method is you guys are using, but if it is very time consuming you are probably going about it in a wrong/overly complicated way.

EDIT:

Getting Frame Data without a Capture Card

Guess what? This is actually the precise method. Why? With a capturecard, you are limited to 30fps, when Brawl runs at 60fps. This means you cannot possibly get the frame right 100% of the time, because 50% of the time you won't even be able to see the frame at which the move ends, or the hitbox comes out, or whatever. This method takes longer because there is more room for human error, therefore you must perform many more tests, but it is more precise in the end.

What You Need

* A stopwatch that can measure out to 1/1000th of a second (x.xxx).
* A calculator that can work with large numbers.
* A Notepad with which to write down trial numbers.
* A Wii within easy access to the three of these instruments.

FALSE.

You guys are seriously using a ****ing stopwatch to collect this data? WOW. lmao

Protip: If you actually know wtf you are doing you can easily get ALL in-game frames from a 29.97fps recording on NORMAL game speed. It is 29.97fps, BUT it has 2 in-game frames contained in each of those frames (one in each field of the interlaced frame). If you deinterlace it correctly, you get a 59.94fps video at half the height (since half the horizontal lines aka a field are one in-game frame and the other half the other in-game frame).


AVISource("source video.avi")
AssumeTFF()
separatefields()


^^ That's what you want to be using (it's the separate fields script). VirtualDub. AviSynth. Look them up for your own sake, lol.

 

[DeliciousCake]

It shouldn't take any longer to do it the correct way. With VDub+AviSynth separate fields script you go from capturing the video to counting the frames in the now deinterlaced 59.94fps video in a matter of seconds. Dunno what this super secret method is you guys are using, but if it is very time consuming you are probably going about it in a wrong/overly complicated way.

EDIT:

FALSE.

You guys are seriously using a ****ing stopwatch to collect this data? WOW. lmao

Protip: If you actually know wtf you are doing you can easily get ALL in-game frames from a 29.97fps recording on NORMAL game speed. It is 29.97fps, BUT it has 2 in-game frames contained in each of those frames (one in each field of the interlaced frame). If you deinterlace it correctly, you get a 59.94fps video at half the height (since half the horizontal lines aka a field are one in-game frame and the other half the other in-game frame).


AVISource("source video.avi")
AssumeTFF()
separatefields()


^^ That's what you want to be using (it's the separate fields script). VirtualDub. AviSynth. Look them up for your own sake, lol.

I take pride in the fact that I've done what I have without using that.

 

[Magus420]

OK, but it's not a very accurate way to do it which is what matters to other people who wish to make use of it =/

 

[DeliciousCake]

That's why I do 30 trials of each move. 30 trials of how long it is. 30 trials of when each hitbox comes out (unless it has a freeze effect to it, which is impossible to judge then.) If you'd seen the "Fox Framerate Data" thread in the Fox forums you'd know that even just counting frames in a program leads to inaccurate results, as a lot of people are just morons in general.

 

[Magus420]

Correction: A person that doesn't have any idea what they are doing when counting frames using a crappy video editor and not knowing how to deinterlace the source video properly leads to inaccurate results.

The method I described is 100.0% accurate and can be done in a LOT less time. If you understood the effects of throwing refresh rates, the game clock, inputs from the controller, etc into the mix you would know why your method is NOT entirely 100.0% accurate.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Well obviously it's not 100% accurate.

 

[Ares And Enyo]

Cake ... we need more frame data ... plz post air data soon

 

[Doval]

DeliciousCake, while I respect you, your willingness to help out the community and the work you've done so far...Magus420 is every bit correct. "His" method leaves no room for error and is pretty much better in every way. There's a BIG difference between a flawed method and flawed interpretation of data using a flawless method of data collection. Just because it's possible for someone to interpret data incorrectly, it doesn't invalidate the data collection method.

And if you acknowledge that your data collection method isn't 100% accurate, then you should switch immediately, assuming you can capture video of course. People who really make use of frame data need 100% accurate info. 1 frame can make a lot of difference for a lot of things.

 

[Magus420]

Also, with the aid of recorded video you can find extra useful things like autocancel windows for aerials, IASA frames, and super armor frames (if a character has any) for the moves. =)

Cake may not have a capture card however, so if not then using a different method wouldn't really be an option.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Also, with the aid of recorded video you can find extra useful things like autocancel windows for aerials, IASA frames, and super armor frames (if a character has any) for the moves. =)

Cake may not have a capture card however, so if not then using a different method wouldn't really be an option.

Yeah, I'm working on it, this past week has been pretty busy for me though. I do have a Gamebridge, hopefully that can compensate for a lack of a capture card.

EDIT: Also, I won't be able to work on this at all this weekend as well, so you'll all have to wait until next week.

 

[wakka444]

Yay!!! A lot of work so props to you!!!!!

 

[Foxy]

I've been trying to find time to do some work on this project, however I've been frustrated by the fact that my capture card captures at 29.97 FPS.

Therefore it's pretty much useless for this, unless I can alter the capture speed... I don't know a ton about it so it might be possible. I doubt it though.

The basic method seems a bit tedious so I'd definitely try anything capture-related first. I'd also rather have that extra precision (if I can get it).

EDIT: I'm stupid, finished reading the other half of the thread and I'll give Magus' stuff a try later. If that works then it would give this project a boost.

 

[GofG]

Magus, I wish you'd stop going to each individual thread of people getting frame data and tell each one of them that they're doing it wrong when they're each already perfectly aware that a capture card is the better way of doing it, they simply lack the materials to do so.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[Ares And Enyo]

yea .... I applaud you cake for doing what i am too lazy to do