luigi master tae
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 3, 2006
- Messages
- 214
melee owns
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Zoning/Spacing and other Fundamentals
- Thread starter Myztek
- Start date
Esper
Smash Cadet
@Ryucloud
I think many "great reads" are reactions _forced_ by top-players. it's difficult to explain, so I'll give an example.
Let's say your opponent is near the ledge und you jab him (as fox, falco, CF). Intuitively you'd try to follow up with a grab or (smash-)attack. That may work, but it's no 100% follow-up.
That jab may not really hurt your opponent either, but it triggers a "omg, I'm being attacked, I have to do something NOW!"-reaction (because he as well intuitively thinks, you'll follow up).
He might try to hit you back, to shield your (potential) follow-up or he may spot-dodge/roll. It's not easy to predict _what_ he will do, but it's pretty much guaranteed he will do _something_.
I've seen good players in this situation and oftentimes they do a jab, but then dash-dance away and wait for their opponent to do their (panic-)reaction.
if they shield or spot-dodge -> grab
if they try to hit you -> you dashed away, so it probably missed and you can grab/punish
if they roll into/behind you -> great, you're already there
schemes like this happen in many situations (shield-pressure and laser-game come to my mind), but it's not easy to see if you're not aware of it
I think many "great reads" are reactions _forced_ by top-players. it's difficult to explain, so I'll give an example.
Let's say your opponent is near the ledge und you jab him (as fox, falco, CF). Intuitively you'd try to follow up with a grab or (smash-)attack. That may work, but it's no 100% follow-up.
That jab may not really hurt your opponent either, but it triggers a "omg, I'm being attacked, I have to do something NOW!"-reaction (because he as well intuitively thinks, you'll follow up).
He might try to hit you back, to shield your (potential) follow-up or he may spot-dodge/roll. It's not easy to predict _what_ he will do, but it's pretty much guaranteed he will do _something_.
I've seen good players in this situation and oftentimes they do a jab, but then dash-dance away and wait for their opponent to do their (panic-)reaction.
if they shield or spot-dodge -> grab
if they try to hit you -> you dashed away, so it probably missed and you can grab/punish
if they roll into/behind you -> great, you're already there
schemes like this happen in many situations (shield-pressure and laser-game come to my mind), but it's not easy to see if you're not aware of it
Fernandez
Smash Journeyman
very nice post =]
ZodiakLucien
Smash Ace
the whole game, as with every other fighter, is only three things. Execution, Spacing, and Decision Making. Tired of hearing mindgames and whatnot.
Ryucloud
Smash Journeyman
wooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd
King Funk
Int. Croc. Alligator
Don't know if anyone brought it up before, but I always felt that the auto-pilot is something you build. And you can build a good auto-pilot just like you can build a bad one. Will write more about that later.
Ryucloud
Smash Journeyman
I feel like a good auto pilot is like practicing how to punish opponents in situations and followups.
It’s always hard for me to explain the game. It's so fast paced and there are so many options to cover. I hate to tell someone how the game should be played. I don't want to put a damper on anyone creativity. There's wrong way to play. Pin pointing such an abstract subject as spacing to sum up, is very difficult. My view on spacing is. Any Move You Do That Is Non Punishable. The worst case scenario would be being set back to neutral. Your opponent could shield roll jump etc and if they did counter attack they would whiff. That doesn't mean your move has to necessarily hit your opponent. It just put you in a position where they can't hit you back. Which is probably more along the lines of zoning. To clarify there is no "upunishable move" but when selected in the right situation it can be. Good spacing requires knowing ranges of all your moves and ranges of all your opponents moves. It's something you gain overtime through in game experience.
My suggesting for new players would to be to watch players such as azen pc chris isai ken. From the 05-06 era. The game was a little slower then so it’ll easier to see examples of good spacing. Mango and Armada always a good choices to. But they execute on such a high level. That its sometimes harder to see what there doing. So I’d focus more on mangos puff days. Scc Pound 3 some real good sets with M2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNCPGgZ_3ak mango vs m2k scc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPGWt99DOIU&playnext=1&list=PL1778603120F4E173 isai vs m2k 06
<3
My suggesting for new players would to be to watch players such as azen pc chris isai ken. From the 05-06 era. The game was a little slower then so it’ll easier to see examples of good spacing. Mango and Armada always a good choices to. But they execute on such a high level. That its sometimes harder to see what there doing. So I’d focus more on mangos puff days. Scc Pound 3 some real good sets with M2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNCPGgZ_3ak mango vs m2k scc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPGWt99DOIU&playnext=1&list=PL1778603120F4E173 isai vs m2k 06
<3
FluxWolf
Smash Lord
heycool thread myztek... i didnt read every post or all of the first post even cuz im at class right now... but here are some things that i think u could put in there as well to help ppl out...
1: try to slow things down, effectiveness actually decreases at a certain point when u try to do too much
2: play your opponents character not yours... you need to focus on what u need to do to win vs x character not just focus on what you're doing all the time
3: never do something for no reason... always think about what your opponent is doing and base your approaches off that, never just try things and hope it will work!! such as when tech chasing... if u dont get there in time they can punish u, so dont go for the grab anyways... wait and react dont take risks that will get u hit!
i dunno thats a random ramble people prolly already said the same thing or hell maybe u did ^^ just my 2 cents... im sure that could be added onto as well, what do ppl think?
1: try to slow things down, effectiveness actually decreases at a certain point when u try to do too much
2: play your opponents character not yours... you need to focus on what u need to do to win vs x character not just focus on what you're doing all the time
3: never do something for no reason... always think about what your opponent is doing and base your approaches off that, never just try things and hope it will work!! such as when tech chasing... if u dont get there in time they can punish u, so dont go for the grab anyways... wait and react dont take risks that will get u hit!
i dunno thats a random ramble people prolly already said the same thing or hell maybe u did ^^ just my 2 cents... im sure that could be added onto as well, what do ppl think?
Mr Wizzrobe
Smash Journeyman
What is this?
So you're the one that took it first.
Hand that **** over, son.
So you're the one that took it first.
Hand that **** over, son.
Sinji
Smash Master
Great guide. I can see that it attracted a lot of up coming ppl.
Good work Myztek
Good work Myztek
choknater
Smash Obsessed
shoutouts to walk up throws
whether or not you think they exist, i'm still gonna say "ohhh mindgames!"
SnakeMan
Smash Cadet
Shoutout to choknater, reppin da ylink, chhyyeahhh!!
Yea im also tired of hearing about "mindgames". If people dont have a basic understanding of the concept from the get-go, they should give this and all fighting games up and go play solitaire for fun. Mindgames are so intrinsic to smash that they are basically one and the same.
Yea im also tired of hearing about "mindgames". If people dont have a basic understanding of the concept from the get-go, they should give this and all fighting games up and go play solitaire for fun. Mindgames are so intrinsic to smash that they are basically one and the same.
mers
Smash Ace
My one simple principle of Melee:
"Everything, literally everything, can be punished."
The trick is figuring out how to punish in fast-moving, always-different situations.
"Everything, literally everything, can be punished."
The trick is figuring out how to punish in fast-moving, always-different situations.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
I don't think that's true at all, but OK.
lil T
Smash Journeyman
This is a very good thread!
If you don't know Im doing a video series call RTI (Road To Improvement)
Where pretty much me and my friend is play alot of melee into we get better and also ask for tips to help us.(Alot More info here http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13117339#post13117339 )
After Spending alot of time reading in this thread(and watching some of the video y'all post)
I learn alot of things i never knew that can Change my playing style for the better!
If you don't know Im doing a video series call RTI (Road To Improvement)
Where pretty much me and my friend is play alot of melee into we get better and also ask for tips to help us.(Alot More info here http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13117339#post13117339 )
After Spending alot of time reading in this thread(and watching some of the video y'all post)
I learn alot of things i never knew that can Change my playing style for the better!
If you're at 60%, and I knee you, and you go flying 30 in-game yards, how are you going to punish me?
If I get a grab on your shield, how will you punish me for the grab? How do you punish a punish?
I tipper f-air you, how I am get punish? Whiffed tipper F-smash on your shield's edge, who can punish that? I laser you from across FD with Falco, can I be punished?
RedGamer
Smash Ace
those are success situations. What about the failure ones? And also I believe the poster is referring to the fact that every move can be punished.
here are some examples:
*If I'm at 60% and you knee but miss, I will punish you.
*If you try to grab, I will try to doge. if you miss, I will punish you.
*If I miss, you will punish me.
*If you tipper fair me, I will DI. which one of us will get punished? I don't know =/
*Tipper F smash on my shield's edge, I will wavedash out of shield and attack. who punishes who? still no clue.
*You laser me from across FD with falco, I can dodge. But if you get too close, I will punish you.
Not shooting you down or anything. Just trying to give my viewpoint.
Mokumo
Smash Ace
hahahahahahahaWhat is this?
So you're the one that took it first.
Hand that **** over, son.
i think it would be cool to put together another tutorial video that covers more than just the basics. maybe split it up into a few parts or something
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
everything can be punished as stated before.
and Powershielding falco lasers is punishing
if a certain move, combo, or mindset is not punishable,
we could agree on who's the best player, and it would be clear.
Why is there multiple players and chars winning nationals
spacing is about limiting options for your opponents while
maximizing options for yourself
and Powershielding falco lasers is punishing
if a certain move, combo, or mindset is not punishable,
we could agree on who's the best player, and it would be clear.
Why is there multiple players and chars winning nationals
spacing is about limiting options for your opponents while
maximizing options for yourself
KeiriiofCelts
Smash Rookie
Hmm, I don't know. Sheik with tourettes? Hahah! Anyways, the way she was used in the video, you don't really need to do that to win. I would have instead simply dodged behind them and followed up with either a forward A attack or a grab. It's better not to make the first move, but rather to wait for your opponents to come to you, then dodge or jump over them and follow it up with an attack.