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Zone's recent tournament Experience.

Zone

Smash Champion
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Jan 3, 2006
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Pensacola, FL
Questions after my recent Tournament.
Bold indicate my questions.

Okay, Almost every fox there that could waveshine, and shffl well could beat my Zelda. I lost a few chances at taking off a Fox's stock because I screwed up my chain grab but rather. When I got the chance to graba few of them near 0%, They DI'd and I followed and hit grab quickly but it felt out of reach. At that low if they DI that far should I just Dash attack or something?

I got 2stocked by GAwes' Captain falcon, and 3 stocked by Chaddd's Ganon. lol ^^
which was fun.

My friend "wanting to win" Wanted me to play Shiek or Marth and claimed I should be them in teams. I am pretty good at playing Marth in 1v1 But I don't think he's such a good team player. So Despite his advice I played Zelda with is falco or peach anyways. I'd occasionally get free B-air's and F-airs everywhere, because my friend TACO's enemy didn't expect me to drop my enemy whether it's via farore's wind or just dropping down off a ledge from a small stage, and I b-air'd and f-air'd. Plus if I got wave shined, the potential for him to shoot a lazer at me fast (Assuming my friend didn't have tunnel vision) Was there. I'm not saying Zelda in teams is the new era or anything. It just worked out alot better than I expected. I did get a Dash Attack --> Dash Attack--> Grab--> Up throw --> Grab --> Kick on a fox. LOL and he goes "Dude get this Zelda please.". Me and my friend TACO need to not suck at teams though. we did get tunnel vision a bit much.

I need Zelda vs (Good Fox) experience.

Anyone else think Counterpicking peach on Brinstar is a good idea? Man was I mobile in that stage, and the left death zone is really close making kicks in that direction deadly.

IHaveSpaceBalls (IHSB) Samus player, had a problem with zelda. Everytime he shot a charge shot after knocking me up, it was reflected. And I realized Samus, nearly any move she hits you with on your shield sets you up for a kick out of shield. Anyone else think Samus fights are pretty even match ups? or maybe he just didn't know how to play Zelda?

I beat alot of shieks there with Zelda. But when they countered with a low ceiling lvl I just changed to marth. I'm not Zelda exclusive but I'd like to play her anyways. If everything is against my Zelda no point in climbing mount Everest to get some gold when the Appalachian mountains are right there with the same prize.

I beat quite a few peaches to ^^ In fact I didn't lose to any peaches I played with Zelda, Except I didn't get to plaly Xif (In 1v1s) Did play some teams. Man that guy likes to talk.. ALOT. lol ^^

I learned one thing GAwes showed me I didn't think about with Zelda. You guys probably already do it. but I learned to drop from a ledge, jump up and back, and kick toward the stage with your heel at the very end. which is good against people who try to spike you while ur farore wind stalling. Whether farore win hits them, or they are real close to the edge. After The kick zelda grabs the edge again nearly instantly so you not so open with having to recover with Up+B. Basically Drop, jump back, kick forward, fall back into the stage. It's not as easy as it seems. I had to practice for a couple hours to get it down. I already knew aobut the back-air to regrab the ledge. Just not being able to Forward air the edge.

Also, I nearly mastered the harder version of stalling which is safer. GAwes told me dropping down and jump to Up+B to stall is good. but if you drop back and up. It gives Zelda more invincibility frames? I'm not sure if that's true, or if it's just the fact that Zelda is better spaced from the edge.


In teams I was taken out of the Winners bracket by Chaddd and Wes first fight. then by Gerbil and Prac in Losers like 4 matches later? roughly.

In Singles. I was takin out by Chaddd first round lol, and taking out by a Fox-Falco player who goes by C in losers bracket eventually. Nearly beat him with jiggly puff though for my counter pick.

Anyone else who's been to a tournament tend to play Lazy after a while? like you lose your excitement to win?

Dunno Just want to make sure I'm not the only one. I played really sluggish later in the day. after playing so many friendlies and team battles.

Also I learned that uh Isai's "Don't get hit" advice is has more merit thatn I thought.. Cuz technically, you should treat almost every hit like it'll take off a stock cuz quite frankly alot of characters can.

I made it out of pools With Zelda. Last time I played Solely marth at this tournament and didn't make it out of pools.
 

Keys

Smash Cadet
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Feb 7, 2005
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When it comes to playing fox with Zelda, you simply have to play mistake free and put a little diversity in your game. You have to be a little less aggressive and let them make the mistakes and punish them for it. In my last tourney appearance I was able to give Fear's fox a run for his money with Zelda. I was able to take him out first match out of 3 but he got me the last 2. Were very close matches in which I only needed one good hit to finish him off. Zelda's matchup against fox isn't very good in my opinion but if you play your cards right you still have a good chance to win. I also believe Zelda's matchup versus Samus is a very even one. Alot of Samus's attacks leave her wide open for some lightning kicks plus you can kind of keep control of her range game with the reflect.
 

ihavespaceblondes

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Anyone else think Samus fights are pretty even match ups? or maybe he just didn't know how to play Zelda?
1. Even
2. No, I really don't XFD
3. You should have banned Dreamland, I won there because it takes 6-8 kicks instead of 3-5 to kill me.
4. Brinstar... didn't work, but I'm not sure how bad of an idea it is for Zelda vs Samus. One of the smaller neutral stages (FoD or Battlefield) would have probably been a better choice.
 

Impp

Smash Ace
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Mar 24, 2006
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651
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Zelda vs. a good fox...

Zelda has one advantage against a good fox...
When a Fox or Falco main see a no name player using a low tier in a match, the chemicals that tell one to **** get released in the Fox or Falco user's brain in high concentration. The signal overpowers the "avoid getting messed up" instinct. Zelda has a couple of tricks to deal with a thoughtless approach against a Fox. Mostly Simple spam... For instance, forward smashes will catch him often when he runs toward you the first one or two times... The fact that the hit box lingers throws some people off. You can chew through his short hopped aerials when he does them too early with short hopped B-airs and F-airs... Avoid those hit boxes, though.... Aim for the Face!!! You're not really playing defensive... Just have it so he runs into your ****.
If all goes well, hopefully you took the first stock and a half and you're still on your first life. Now the Fox player is hopefully feeling a backlash and playing defensively... Now employ mind games!!! He'll be sheilding more often... One of my favorites is Forward Smash, He won't be able to let go of the sheild until the electric fuzz disapears. If he does unsheild after the move, spam another one, he'll most likely get hit. If he's still sheilding run in for a grab, If you're lucky you'll get the grab.... Another fun thing against a defensive fox... If he's got the sheild up, retreat a little bit, if he goes for the bait, space a back air. (Aim for the Face!!!)
FYI... if you're at mid % and fox hits you with a dash attack.. DI away or toward or up or something,, I forget but if you DI right, you can often just flat out counter with the toe.
Also, for some reason a Fox might ledge hop a phantasm onto the stage,... You can chew through that with forward smash.
Anyways... by the end of the match, a good fox player will have figured out how to play you, and you're gonna feel the pain... but with some luck you'll edge him out and catch him with an F/B-air FTW eventually!!!
After that, the Zelda gimmick has run it's course and if you want to win the set, I'd reccomend selling out and going to a higher tier... or be a man and stick with it and get 2 or 3 stocked the next two matches....
As for stages, My favorite stage for Fox is Battle field, or Fountain of Dreams. Pokemon stadium might be the worst for neutral stages... I think it's worse than FD...
Sorry for the long post, but I was on a roll man!!!
 

theONEjanitor

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zone are there any vids of you g4s performance, my bro is learning zelda, and you played pretty good...so i wanted to show him sommin. i didn't talk to you but i was there too
 

Zone

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Pensacola, FL
zone are there any vids of you g4s performance, my bro is learning zelda, and you played pretty good...so i wanted to show him sommin. i didn't talk to you but i was there too
Some of my Friendlies vs MArty's peach and Link may be on Sleepyk's videos. you'd have to ask him. That was the only time I played on the VCR T.V. Other than that Not really I brought a VCR but was too lazy to hook it up. Cuz frankly I didn't want pple getting annoyed by me hooking up a VCR everytime I changed stations.

1. Even
2. No, I really don't XFD
3. You should have banned Dreamland, I won there because it takes 6-8 kicks instead of 3-5 to kill me.
4. Brinstar... didn't work, but I'm not sure how bad of an idea it is for Zelda vs Samus. One of the smaller neutral stages (FoD or Battlefield) would have probably been a better choice.
lol hey. Yea But I don't die well on Dreamland either. So I didn't care too much, But you may be right. I did win the first DReamland fight. You won the 2nd one though.

Btw at the previous Tournament there, I mained Jigglypuff more than Zelda, and you gave me advice as I fought you. Your a cool guy. I appreciate Critique when you see it.

First was Dreamland wasn't it? >.>

Yea, dunno i'm a newb at stage selection lol. I once picked Corneria as jigglypuff vs Falco. Yea I suck at stage selection muhaha!

I also don't get to fight SAmus's much I only realized how much ezier the kick out of shield was vs you, as I used it.

@Impp: THanks for the Fox, knowledge. I know baiting is good. it's just hard when a single screw up, led to like 60-70% dmg. Dun worry after I got ***** by many a fox's I chose marth >.>; I just wanted to see how well Zelda did for me at this tournament more than trying to place really high. So most cases I went Zelda first. IF I lost, I changed to Shiek, Marth, or Jiggs.

I know realistically If I want to win more easily w/o straining myself I should just pick Marth or something. But I'd like to know the match up anyways. Thanks for sharing.
 

Zone

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Nah, the first game was on Yoshi's Story, so I died in 4 kicks every life XFD.
Ah, lol ur on now cool.

I remember more clearly now. lol

3rd MAtch I was gonna pick Yoshi's storys but then u confirmed to me that I couldn't pick it cuz I won on that stage the first match.
 

HideousBeing

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Also I learned that uh Isai's "Don't get hit" advice is has more merit thatn I thought.. Cuz technically, you should treat almost every hit like it'll take off a stock cuz quite frankly alot of characters can.
Too true. Especially if you can get under Zelda.
 

Rapid_Assassin

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IHaveSpaceBalls (IHSB) Samus player, had a problem with zelda. Everytime he shot a charge shot after knocking me up, it was reflected. And I realized Samus, nearly any move she hits you with on your shield sets you up for a kick out of shield. Anyone else think Samus fights are pretty even match ups? or maybe he just didn't know how to play Zelda?
Were you using her neutral b to reflect? Very punishable if you really do it every time Samus charge shots you, especially if the Samus knows her end of the matchup. If you want to reflect everything, powershield.. :) Get good enough at it, and you'll scare some people.. I wouldn't ban dreamland against a Samus though, but definitely wouldn't counterpick with it. If they only play Samus, and you aren't good at not getting hit with missiles (neutral b reflecting doesn't count if that's all you can do), ban Pokestadium. Otherwise ban FD.. (Most people know how to play Fox, Falco, Sheik, or Ice climbers these days, even if that's not their main) Counterpick with Yoshi's story, Pokefloats...

Against Fox, just hope he's really dumb, doesn't DI, and all that other fun stuff... Definitely Zelda's hardest matchup. I'd ban FD, or Corneria at tournaments that don't allow banning of neutrals.
 

Zone

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Were you using her neutral b to reflect? Very punishable if you really do it every time Samus charge shots you, especially if the Samus knows her end of the matchup. If you want to reflect everything, powershield.. :) Get good enough at it, and you'll scare some people.. I wouldn't ban dreamland against a Samus though, but definitely wouldn't counterpick with it. If they only play Samus, and you aren't good at not getting hit with missiles (neutral b reflecting doesn't count if that's all you can do), ban Pokestadium. Otherwise ban FD.. (Most people know how to play Fox, Falco, Sheik, or Ice climbers these days, even if that's not their main) Counterpick with Yoshi's story, Pokefloats...

Against Fox, just hope he's really dumb, doesn't DI, and all that other fun stuff... Definitely Zelda's hardest matchup. I'd ban FD, or Corneria at tournaments that don't allow banning of neutrals.
The Nuetral B was done when he was very close to me. Everytime it was reflected was kinda when he was too close. His animation wasn't done by the time it was reflected. IT's not like he would try and shoot it at me when i'm not partially vulnerable.

I don't think trying to powershield a Fully charged B is such a good idea. I mean I'm pretty consistent with Powershielding, but I only do it on lazers and missiles. And like I said He popped me in the air before doing the charged blast. I was never on the ground to Power shield those.

Added: Now that I think about it Samus is stunned after a charged shot. There is no punishing Naryu's love when it comes to reflecting a Charged shot really unless samus is far enough away to powershield it back. or something.

Yes I understand not naryu's loving Missiles, Which is why I attempt to power shield those.
 

Darkmusician

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Hey a new Zelda thread. :]

When playing a very good fox...you have to be calm, observant, alert and above all patient.
Clam-you will get hit...it's unavoidable really...it's frickin fox. so keep your cool, DI well, and don't get frustrated too much.

Observant-Since fox is such a diverse character, people tend to use him overly in one way. Watch for patterns, and tendencies...they may miss l cancles, or recover a certain way everytime.

Alert-Know when you have an opening...you'll have to switch from mini rush to turtle alot and quickly. Don't get over excited and charge all the time, and at the same time don't just pulse walk and eat lazers. Be aware of moves that lag (neutral b, up b, side b mainly) cause they have reach but can be your death. Watch also for mistakes in spacing with smashes and shield stun and then $ Kick that fox out of shield.

Patient-That's the name of the game. Zelda just doesn't have the ability to trade hits in close quarters with fox. This is very hard to do on small stages, but FD, and Pokemon stadium are doable. Empty short hops, wavelands, pulse walking, and dashdancing all help to keep the opponent guessing and you safe. Dodge rolling is very useful to escape. Just don't turtle too long or fox will lazer you freely. But have faith and the opening will present itself. =w=

Chain grabbing is fine, but you're better off grabbing to up throw and then watch the DI. Again this playing into being alert and observant. If they don't DI, uptilt, if they DI away, dash attack and watch if they miss the tech. Actually at low percent if you grab a fox and up throw to uptilt, and they choose not to DI at all, you can grab them again for free. Only in the low percents though.

I won't go into the other stuff since OC3 was my biggest tourny to date which isn't a whole lot. Everyone else would be better advisors on that than I. And all this above is just my honest opinion from my exp playing foxes and stuff. I still get 3 stocked every now and then so don't feel bad about it. It happens.

I hope what I wrote helps you. If I could erase one move in the game, Fox's up smash would be the first to go.
 

Zone

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Pensacola, FL
Hey a new Zelda thread. :]

When playing a very good fox...you have to be calm, observant, alert and above all patient.
Clam-you will get hit...it's unavoidable really...it's frickin fox. so keep your cool, DI well, and don't get frustrated too much.

Observant-Since fox is such a diverse character, people tend to use him overly in one way. Watch for patterns, and tendencies...they may miss l cancles, or recover a certain way everytime.

Alert-Know when you have an opening...you'll have to switch from mini rush to turtle alot and quickly. Don't get over excited and charge all the time, and at the same time don't just pulse walk and eat lazers. Be aware of moves that lag (neutral b, up b, side b mainly) cause they have reach but can be your death. Watch also for mistakes in spacing with smashes and shield stun and then $ Kick that fox out of shield.

Patient-That's the name of the game. Zelda just doesn't have the ability to trade hits in close quarters with fox. This is very hard to do on small stages, but FD, and Pokemon stadium are doable. Empty short hops, wavelands, pulse walking, and dashdancing all help to keep the opponent guessing and you safe. Dodge rolling is very useful to escape. Just don't turtle too long or fox will lazer you freely. But have faith and the opening will present itself. =w=
I kinda already knew that stuff. But it's always good to review what I should be doing.

I was just saying I need practice applying it against a good fox. I don't get punished enough for some of the crap I try and pull off. I have 1 friend who plays a smart fox, but doesn't waveshine ever.... he just plays him smart cuz he knows about all the above you just said. Basically knows how to play Zelda.. cuz he plays against Zelda all the time. I have another friend who can waveshine very well, but he jumps into alot of my crap. Wish I could get more practice against Gerbil's fox lol. He was really the only fox there that 3 stocked me. Other fox's either 1 stocked me or 2.


Chain grabbing is fine, but you're better off grabbing to up throw and then watch the DI. Again this playing into being alert and observant. If they don't DI, uptilt, if they DI away, dash attack and watch if they miss the tech. Actually at low percent if you grab a fox and up throw to uptilt, and they choose not to DI at all, you can grab them again for free. Only in the low percents though.
I only uptilt out of throw against new enemies. But everytime I do uptilt it's mostly to trade hits with Falco's Down air. And now fox's down air. I know how to watch DI lol. I'm no newb, Just inexperienced vs fox. I play way too much Falco. BUt if they don't DI i just grab again... Why uptilt? If it's getting too high for me to grab again and they Don't DI. I just jump to the side and kick the opposite direction. I don't like to assume they don't DI, it's always best to assume the worst case scenario.

Also my only question with CHaingrabbing is, at 0% Can you still catch him if he DI's perfectly behind you, or infront of you? I feel it falls short, but it looks like you can almost make it. OR maybe I'm grabbing too late or something. Maybe I should wavedash after the throw. I dunno. I should probably test this myself but for a while I don't got a fox to DI me lol.


I won't go into the other stuff since OC3 was my biggest tourny to date which isn't a whole lot. Everyone else would be better advisors on that than I. And all this above is just my honest opinion from my exp playing foxes and stuff. I still get 3 stocked every now and then so don't feel bad about it. It happens.

I hope what I wrote helps you. If I could erase one move in the game, Fox's up smash would be the first to go.

lol, that was how I died nearly everytime.

btw All of my chaingrabs lead from Grab--> Grab--> Grab--> Grab--> Grab --> Kick. Only time I do anything different. Is if Platforms are in the way, Then that's when I do uptilt, platform Tech chases, and such. And IF I get a grab on them with my back to the edge. And I know they know how to DI my down throw. I'll just BAckthrow them, If they start changing up how to DI that. I'll go with Downthrow to back air, this is just things I do. won't work on every occasion of course damage and such is dependant.
 
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when I played IHSB at FC he nailed me with a few charge shot combos lol.
 

Zone

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when I played IHSB at FC he nailed me with a few charge shot combos lol.
lol, he almost nailed me with 2. But I got Naryu's love up in mid-air and he took both charged shots he fired. He still won the set though, he has a crazy samus.
 

Darkmusician

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Just go with the flow. Breaking things down too much doesn't really help against fox. If you already know those things then that's pretty much all you need to know because all the numbers and tech skills zelda can must still can't compare to fox, which I really don't like.

But if you really want a technical breakdown of percents to chain grab, and whatnot, then I wouldn't be the person to ask although I wish I could help.

Don't think...feel.
 

Zone

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Just go with the flow. Breaking things down too much doesn't really help against fox. If you already know those things then that's pretty much all you need to know because all the numbers and tech skills zelda can must still can't compare to fox, which I really don't like.

But if you really want a technical breakdown of percents to chain grab, and whatnot, then I wouldn't be the person to ask although I wish I could help.

Don't think...feel.
I think I know what you mean by feel. When I'm in a losing streak, I start trying to think harder thinking it'll help but I seem to sink deeper and fall into even more stupid traps. even though I was playing better, and more fluidly while I'm in what you call "The Zone" lol. Hence my name >.>;

Thanks for you input Dark Magician. I got my answer for the chaingrab thing now.

I just want to be able to play all match-ups as Zelda, just for my own personal goals and fun.

If I'm really going for the Win. I got myself a platoon of other characters if not better
Marth - Shiek - Jigglypuff - Fox.
 

Darkmusician

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I'm glad you got the answers you were looking for.

No problem. :]

And ya, other characters are good. In my case Zelda would be my best option. She's like a specialty thing for me. =w=
 
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