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ZGD: Livin by a thread.

Fuujin

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. (Although it sounds like your friend might not be tech-savvy enough to understand what that actually means.... basically, the knockback angle and value are variable.)

So bair is faster, less laggy, and (if I'm right about the sweetspots) has better KO knockback at high percentages. I mean obviously fair is very similar, but bair is still better in every way. Pretty clear cut.

EDIT: I think what BJN saw with Mario is because of the sweetspot knockback differences. So I'm a little more confident that I'm right on that.
Nnnn
I see you shading him down Kayla!!!! :laugh:

I'm not sure what's not to get about it, I explained in less detail most the same things you said.
He's just one of those people who doesn't know what they're talking bout will continue to argue with you.

He also said Brinstar should be a great stage for Zelda :rolleyes:
So I guess I shouldn't bother taking the discussion seriously.

Edit:
This person claims they want to come read this and respond but that would result in a massive dragging from all of the Zelda players, so I chose to leave his name out like the nice person I am.
I gave him fair warning though so if he does reply though then we can freely drag him without remorse.
 

BJN39

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He also said Brinstar should be a great stage for Zelda :rolleyes:

^That's pretty funny.

So anyways, I decided to get the very specific data on this:

Differences Data v
* FAir hits on frames 8-12 (5 hit frames) BAir hits on frames 5-8 (Only 4 hit frames)
* FAir has exactly one more frame of length after the hitframes, AKA one more lag frame.
* FAir Knockback numbers > 34/95 VS BAir KB numbers > 40/96 (<that's 6 base KB, and 1 KB growth.)

Besides these, the moves' data should be 100% identical. But these differences make a HUGE difference.
I like running data. :p

Also a cute bonus to this move is that the sweetspot has a SDI multiplier of x0. So no SDI. But if it didn't people could do funny things during that sweetspot pause.
 

KayLo!

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Like the oh-so-nice person you are.... :p

I mean, if he wants something explained/clarified more, that's one thing. But if he's gonna keep arguing against what are literally hard facts, the most he's getting out of me is a virtual eye roll. ....Sounds like it'll be the latter.
 

KayLo!

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Why thank you. :bee:

Also your data on bair's knockback might be right vs. mine -- but even so, bair still has way better knockback at high percentages (even assuming identical kb angles), so it's still fact that it kills way sooner.
 

Fuujin

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Like the oh-so-nice person you are.... :p

I mean, if he wants something explained/clarified more, that's one thing. But if he's gonna keep arguing against what are literally hard facts, the most he's getting out of me is a virtual eye roll. ....Sounds like it'll be the latter.
It's very likely to be the latter.
You and BJN should drag him with the facts and post some gifs on my behalf.
 

BJN39

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Why thank you. :bee:

Also your data on bair's knockback might be right vs. mine -- but even so, bair still has way better knockback at high percentages (even assuming identical kb angles), so it's still fact that it kills way sooner.

^Yes I think we're actually making the same point. Since the base KB of bair is bigger it doesn't need that much more KB growth to kill way earlier.

Also, since a sakurai angle is dependant on the move's power, bair should have a very tiny bit higher angle. Not enough to make a difference though...
 

Rizen

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Never argue with a bigot; it's like trying to explain something to an iguana.
Also IIRC Bair's sweet bubble is positioned slightly lower which macks hitting small characters OoS easier.

@ last page, Din's can't stop nados, I'm pretty sure.

Edit, anyone watch the latest South Park? What character does Kenny remind you of? ;)
 

Xyro77

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I have a friend who (shall remain unnamed) who thinks b air and f air are the same move and the differences in frame data and knockback don't make a difference.

Would anyone be willing just to state why he is wrong?

I already explained but I figure if more than one person spells it out for him maybe it will sink in :)

The person he is talking about is Xyro77 The Green Lesbian Samus Master. His explanation of what i said is kinda a trap/bait for you guys. Plus, our convo was all through text (hes afraid to talk on the phone) so a lot of stuff can be taken the wrong way.

Let me read the stuff below and see if it answers my questions.



What doesn't he understand?

- Bair comes out significantly faster (those 3 frames make a big diff)
- Bair has less end lag
- They both do the same damage, but iirc fair sweetspot has a set knockback angle/value while bair sweetspot has the Sakurai angle. (Although it sounds like your friend might not be tech-savvy enough to understand what that actually means.... basically, the knockback angle and value are variable.) I'm not 100% sure on the knockback thing though; it's been a long time since I looked at her raw data.

So bair is faster, less laggy, and (if I'm right about the sweetspots) has better KO knockback at high percentages. I mean obviously fair is very similar, but bair is still better in every way. Pretty clear cut.

EDIT: I think what BJN saw with Mario is because of the sweetspot knockback differences. So I'm a little more confident that I'm right on that.
So Bair is faster by 3 frames? Isnt that the difference between like ZS jab and Fox jab? On paper that looks nice but in real matches its a very small thing. Not very noticeable/useful unless you play near perfect.

Also, you quoted SMASH WIKI (roflmao nice one) to explain "sakurai angle" aka a new gen term? Can you give me a REAL source with a baby explanation so i can understand this? im a simple kind of guy



^That's pretty funny.

So anyways, I decided to get the very specific data on this:

Differences Data v
* FAir hits on frames 8-12 (5 hit frames) BAir hits on frames 5-8 (Only 4 hit frames)
* FAir has exactly one more frame of length after the hitframes, AKA one more lag frame.
* FAir Knockback numbers > 34/95 VS BAir KB numbers > 40/96 (<that's 6 base KB, and 1 KB growth.)

Besides these, the moves' data should be 100% identical. But these differences make a HUGE difference.
I like running data. :p

Also a cute bonus to this move is that the sweetspot has a SDI multiplier of x0. So no SDI. But if it didn't people could do funny things during that sweetspot pause.
KB numbers?
6 base KB and 1 KB growth?

Put this is baby terms please.
 

Xyro77

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In short, you aren't smart enough to understand why b air > f air:rolleyes:
Kayla/BJN break it down in dummy simple terms for the lesser gurls like Xyro.


Before i destroy you nerds or admit i was wrong, id like clarification on things. Its not like im gonna walk in here and say "Fair>Bair in every way, k bye."

And F you for starting all this BS. You will pay for this


 

Xyro77

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SIT DOWNE sistren.


You about to be EDUCATED by the clearly more intellectual Zelda mains.


I truly do hope they are more educated than you cause you are most def an embarrassment to your father and i. oh and zelda too
 

KayLo!

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Re: the frame differences:

The 3 frame startup diff may seem small, but it makes a noticeable impact when you're, say, kicking OOS or trading in the air. Bair comes out on frame 5 vs. frame 8, so that could be the difference between beating your opponent's move or taking damage. Also, combined with its shorter endlag, you can do things with bair that you can't do with fair -- an example is BJN's mention of double bair'ing in a short hop, particularly useful vs fatties.

As far as safety goes, they're both pretty committed moves, so I won't pretend that bair's shorter endlag makes it safer to use.... but it is marginally less laggy.

Baby terms ~ Bair is faster, and because it's less laggy, you can do things with it that you can't with fair.

Re: the Sakurai angle:

First of all, I'm not sure why linking to an accurate source about the Sakurai angle is funny? Or why it's bad that it's a "new gen term" considering it affects trip percentages, so it's become more relevant in Brawl. Anyway. I just tried to find a site that would explain it as simply as possible..... it's hard to clarify if you're not knowledgeable about Brawl mechanics though.

Basically, a move with the Sakurai angle is marked as having a 361 degree knockback (kb) angle but actually has variable knockback depending on whether the target is grounded vs. aerial and how much damage they have. So as they approach KO percentages, the move's kb angle will change (only on grounded opponents -- on aerial opponents, it's always 45 degrees).

Baby terms ~ There are none. You either understand this or don't, honestly. x.x

Re: the knockback difference in general:

I'm not 100% sure whether I'm right in bair having the Sakurai angle or BJN's right on the kb numbers he posted earlier (like I said, I haven't done Smash Lab research or looked at Zelda's move data in ~2 years, so he's probably right tbh), but whichever is right, bair has better knockback at high percentages. It has higher kb strength in terms of base kb and kb growth (how much the kb strength increases as the target's damage increases); additionally, if it does have the Sakurai angle, it will send grounded high damage opponents at an angle less than 45 degrees, which sends them on a trajectory with less distance to the blast zone. (Obviously DI plays a huge factor in angles, but 45 degrees is generally the worst angle since with no DI it sends people straight to the upper corners.)

Baby terms ~ Assuming no difference in DI, bair kills sooner than fair because it has better knockback values.

Otherwise, they're pretty much the same. Bair isn't wildly better than fair, but it's better enough that it more or less makes fair obsolete except for damage building or if you're facing the wrong way when you have an opportunity to kill.

Baby term conclusion ~ Everything fair does, bair just does better. And does a few minor tricks fair can't.

Okay, I think I'm done editing for clarity. ;; If it's still not simple enough.... I dunno what to tell you!
 

BJN39

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^ Oviously not too old. ;)

EDIT; I saw Your name (Xyro) on the thread viewers a while back and wondered if it was you Fuujin spoke of. :p

Notes on ^ KayLo's notes: (and some knowledge dropping for Xyro. ;) )

* I wouldn't really call 1 frame less "laggy" in terms of Bair, even if we're talking frame perfect theory-craft subjects. But the 3 frames is definately considerably and noticeably faster. You can easily do a Bair OoS but you'll have a WAY harder time doing Fair sweetspot OoS

* The whole knockback base thing down there. vvv

Base KB stands for the KB it will do at a certain time. Moves with higher base KB will knock farther away than Lower base KB moves at any equal percent between the two moves. So Bair Knocks farther away than Fair at ANY equal percent

KB growth is for the amount of power it gains with percent rise. For instance, moves that hit really weak at like, 0% but kill at like 80% (Just an example <)
KB Growth kinda works like comparing 1 squared, 2 squared, 3 squared and so on. So having 1 KB growth, but 6 more Base KB means it's like (But not exactly like this) >> BaseKB(exponent=KBgrowth)
>> FAir=34/95 > 34(exponent+95)
>> BAir=40/96 > 34(exponent+96) << That number will be way larger than Fair's, thus similar to KB growth's properties.
Thus, Bair will start to kill even earlier in comparison to Fair as percent raises. So at 0% the moves will Knock back almost the same amount, but at 70-ish, Bair will kill while Fair won't.

I hope this should at least translate the difference in KBs for the Lightning Kicks to you.

EDIT2; Rizen, I don't think the hitbox is lower on Bair, she's just contorted to a more narrow position in Bair, letting her get closer to the ground.

Also, here's where I get all my Hitbox stuff. Use it well zeldas. :p
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...read-—-updated-11-9-11-next-upd-11-11.312816/
 

KayLo!

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He broke me when he didn't know what base kb and kb growth were.

Not saying that's a bad thing (if tech knowledge equaled skill in-game, I would've been the next ESAM at one point), but you can't argue against facts when you can't even understand the facts being given to you. @.@
 

BJN39

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2nd post, But this:



Look closely, the move doesn't contain dashed lines, the final hit of Usmash can clank moves!!! Isn't that Hilarious. :awesome: Also, ****, that range is LOL gg. Yet it can still be escaped by some chars... :urg:

EDIT; Still not too old KayLo. :B
 

Fuujin

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Nnnnn

EDUCATE HA!!!!!!!!




Ima read that b*tch
Ima school that bi*ch
I'm gonna take that b*tch to college
I'm gonna give that b*tch some knowledge


Class time I'mma read that b*tch
I'mma make an outline to the point you'll get
I'mma tell the whole school you a stupid bi*ch
Watch how fast we read that b*tch

2nd post, But this:



Look closely, the move doesn't contain dashed lines, the final hit of Usmash can clank moves!!! Isn't that Hilarious. :awesome: Also, ****, that range is LOL gg. Yet it can still be escaped by some chars... :urg:

EDIT; Still not too old KayLo. :B

I've noticed U smash clank somethings very few times, always wondered why that was
 

BJN39

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Yeah, this one frame of hitboxes aren't transcendent priority. Every other usmash multi hit is.

#blamesakurai
 

KayLo!

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* I wouldn't really call 1 frame less "laggy" in terms of Bair, even if we're talking frame perfect theory-craft subjects. But the 3 frames is definately considerably and noticeably faster. You can easily do a Bair OoS but you'll have a WAY harder time doing Fair sweetspot OoS
The data I pulled when I did Zelda's frames way back when had fair's FAF (first actionable frame) at 40 and bair's at 36. So 4 frames. /shrug

Still negligible in terms of safety of the move (they're both wildly unsafe on shield or whiff), but it does affect little things like chaining together aerials during short hops, fast falls, etc.

Maybe the source you use has different numbers, but for basic numbers, I go by the frame data I pulled from PSA and then double-checked in frame advance back when we were doing the repository for the Smash Lab.
 

BJN39

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Oh whoops yeah, I totally spaced out on the amount of frames after the hitframes and mixed it up with something else.

All the more different fair and bair are... :p
 

KayLo!

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Ohhhh, yeah, I'm assuming you thought I meant the length of the active hitbox. =X

For clarity @Xyro: When I say "end lag," I mean lag until the end of the move entirely (as in, when you can do another action).
 

BJN39

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^ That seems about right. :p

Honestly, I think we've pummeled our point into the ground. If Xyro still doesn't think FAir and BAir are different than something is wrong in there....
 

SupaSairentoZ7℠

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Perhaps Zelda should do what Peach has been doing in the last Smash Bros. Use her ***. I mean damn...anything goes in the Smash Bros. World. You got characters that hurt others with 2D Bacon...and...and well I'll stop there. I suppose if Zelda did start using her *** for attacks she'd add Magic to it for a little more impact.
 

Alacion

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Technicalities aside, in general practise, Zelda's bair is typically the more reliable and useful move.

If Zelda had Peach's fair, Zelda would be mid-tier I think.
 

Fuujin

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Perhaps Zelda should do what Peach has been doing in the last Smash Bros. Use her ***. I mean damn...anything goes in the Smash Bros. World. You got characters that hurt others with 2D Bacon...and...and well I'll stop there. I suppose if Zelda did start using her *** for attacks she'd add Magic to it for a little more impact.
Zelda's much too classy for that type of fighting.

I'm sure if they add that furry hoe Krystal she'll do some low class moves like that.
 

BJN39

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I don't think sooty attacks would fit Zelda well. Her booty is too small.

Honestly, if she was just more in touch with her surroundings she could likely fight better. She takes fforever ending any attack, it's like she doesn't realize that someone went all the way around her and is gonna slap her back with a power hit, and doesn't even try to gtfo.
 
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