Zero Suit Samus' Weaknesses

[Supermodel From Paris]

I stumbled across this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg

While old, it's applicable, especially to a character like Zero Suit Samus who has a ton of extraordinary strengths and several weaknesses that would be crippling if not for the fact that her strengths are so powerful.

So I thought maybe it would be smart to talk about what her weaknesses are, how you circumvent them, and how you turn them into strengths.

So far, the biggest weakness for my ZSS is OOS options being poor. I have tried time and time again to get out of Sheik's multi-jab while shielding only to eventually have my shield wither away and have a hit forced on me. The answer for me has been to avoid shielding as much, but this obviously isn't a real solution. This is something I still struggle with. For instance, I hate battlefield because often I become trapped on a platform, shielding, with no option but to take the hit or jump during the ending lag of one of their attacks. I find it difficult to turn something so crippling as this into a strength.

So I feel that as far as "accepting your character's weaknesses," ZSS is a character whose weaknesses are so profound that the only answer is to simply avoid putting yourself in situations where they can be taken advantage of. Obviously this is very difficult and as a result (and perhaps as a result of her rather non-standard style of play), Zero Suit Samus has a more difficult learning curve than most characters in Brawl.

It's something that gets mentioned in blurbs, but is never elaborated on, so let's talk about it: what are our character's most crippling weaknesses, and how are you turning them around? How are you using them to be a better player?

 

[noradseven]

Her main weakness is the one you mentioned your best bet is to power shield jab, out of it, or predict a high hit and d-tilt, or just backroll and hope for the best, basically avoid this situation at all costs.

ZSS strength to counter this is she has an amazing air moves to complements shorthop, air dodge attack stratagy.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

yes, one glaring weakness of ZSS is that she cant "shieldgrab" since she probably has the slowest grab startup in the game. I make up for these things by either countering with her 1 frame jab or her utilt. utilt has some nice priority and idk if this is actually true but it will probably outprio shieks jabs if you PS it.

either that, or I do a pivot attack/grab by dashing back where they're gonna land/attack then counter.

Her grab is the best weakness I can think of.

 

[sasook]

This may be stupid, and maybe it's just me, but it's about platforms. Sometimes I get "stuck" while trying to drop through a platform (happens most on the top platform of BF) and get punished for it because all I do is crouch and wonder why I'm not falling through.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This may be stupid, and maybe it's just me, but it's about platforms. Sometimes I get "stuck" while trying to drop through a platform (happens most on the top platform of BF) and get punished for it because all I do is crouch and wonder why I'm not falling through.

Me too.

 

[Nefarious B]

Her light weight is also a big weakness although an easier one to circumvent through good DI

 

[Hence]

1. Out Of Shield Options:
-Jab
-U-Tilt
-D-Tilt
-F-Tilt
-Backwards falling F-Air
-U-Air
-Backwards U-Air
-B-Air
Zero Suit Samus' out of shield game is above average in my opinion.
Her OOS options are so good that I sometimes create an opportunity to use them. Think of it this way, shielding is broken in this game, you know that. Zero Suit Samus has one of the fastest ground movement speeds in the game (she also has above average aerial control, but that's straying away from the topic). Shield canceled runs are insanely good. By observing where the opponent is aboult to land, you can flawlessly position yourself to juggle. Someone decided to shield your Paralyzer Shot? Run and shield cancel to effectively utilize out of shield options. Be sure to space accoringly when running to stay outside of their hitbox. As good as this strategy is, the potential still remains that you could be trampled for improper spacing.
Sure she can't shieldgrab, but her throws aren't anything to wow about anyway. U-Throw is only ever used by me if I require a damaging throw and I need to make a comeback from a terrible loss. D-Throw anymore is meh. Your opponent can DI, airdodge, or even jump out of an aerial approach. Her only viable throws these days are F-Throw and B-Throw. F-Throw for F-Throw - Dash Attack or a mindgamed regrab at low percentages. At which point I would probably D-Throw and attempt to U-Smash. As for B-Throw, I generally only use it when I want to control the direction of the opponent. In doubles against MetaKnight, for example, I may choose to grab release into a B-Throw to force an edge guard.

About Shiek's Neutral A combo, just SDI out and punish. The damage you'll take from a properly sdi'd Sheik neutral a combo is miniscule compared to the ammount of damage you can inflict without entering shieldstun. Most Sheiks only use the first two hits because practically everyone sdi's.

So I feel that as far as "accepting your character's weaknesses," ZSS is a character whose weaknesses are so profound that the only answer is to simply avoid putting yourself in situations where they can be taken advantage of. Obviously this is very difficult and as a result (and perhaps as a result of her rather non-standard style of play), Zero Suit Samus has a more difficult learning curve than most characters in Brawl.

It's something that gets mentioned in blurbs, but is never elaborated on, so let's talk about it: what are our character's most crippling weaknesses, and how are you turning them around? How are you using them to be a better player?

Well, there's an easy way to make her weaknesses less profound. Think about stages and charcter counterpicks.

Why is Falco vs. ZSS 70:30?

ZSS' spacing with specials is fairly obvious. In the previous example, against Falco, Lasers and Phantasm will totally destroy her. Not to mention the effect of reflector on Plasma Whip. Before Snakeee made the decision to use Sheik against Falco, he made the statement that wasn't going to use Plasma Whip for spacing against Falco any longer. It was once thought to have been possible to Flip Jump out of his chaingrab, but buffered grabs eliminate this option.

Why is Frigate Orpheon a bad stage for ZSS?

Teather Recovery, 'nuff said.

This may be stupid, and maybe it's just me, but it's about platforms. Sometimes I get "stuck" while trying to drop through a platform (happens most on the top platform of BF) and get punished for it because all I do is crouch and wonder why I'm not falling through.

You have many options on platforms:
Run off of the platform while falstfalling. (Fastest way to reset without complication.)
Run off of the platform while fastfalling and timing an aerial.
Jump away and attempt to find land.
Drop through the platform.

If you're having trouble with the last option, just practice falling through the platforms on Battlefield in Training Mode.

Goodluck.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

The reason you guys are having trouble on platforms is that you arent being offensive on it, the opponent should be the one on top of the platform, not you. if you are being pressured on a platform just jump away or run off and bair after they attack to counter.

 

[TheRockSays]

This may be stupid, and maybe it's just me, but it's about platforms. Sometimes I get "stuck" while trying to drop through a platform (happens most on the top platform of BF) and get punished for it because all I do is crouch and wonder why I'm not falling through.

IMO it depends what character your dealing with Diddy and sonic are a problem. Tall characters can be stunned through with a proper down smashing. I usually flip(down b) of platforms against short characters.

Biggest weakness known to any ZSS players is her weight. She is so easily killed by many characters at 70-80% when she has been uptilted or up smash or up air. Is Ludacris to me that ZSS can die so easily.

2nd problem would have to be speedy characters Fancy sonic players, MK, and Marth *cough Martha cough*. They approach through are defence so easily. Are whip is useless up close.

3rd and final problem we seem to get power shielded almost out of every move we have, there has to be some way to stop this.

I have a theory, supposedly Marth's Up B comes out pretty darn fast. I was wondering how fast does Down B come out and how fast can we pull out the flip kick.

Since my last tournament i friendly a Falco player and i was spamming down just for jumping, and he was trying to shoot me since we know down b has invisibility frames how much time do we have between invisibility frames?

I was thinking Down b could be put to better use with the right data.

 

[Hence]

imo It Depends What Character Your Dealing With Diddy And Sonic Are A Problem. Tall Characters Can Be Stunned Through With A Proper Down Smashing. I Usually Flip(down B) Of Platforms Against Short Characters.

Biggest Weakness Known To Any Zss Players Is Her Weight. She Is So Easily Killed By Many Characters At 70-80% When She Has Been Uptilted Or Up Smash Or Up Air. Is Ludacris To Me That Zss Can Die So Easily.

2nd Problem Would Have To Be Speedy Characters Fancy Sonic Players, Mk, And Marth *cough Martha Cough*. They Approach Through Are Defence So Easily. Are Whip Is Useless Up Close.

3rd And Final Problem We Seem To Get Power Shielded Almost Out Of Every Move We Have, There Has To Be Some Way To Stop This.

I Have A Theory, Supposedly Marth's Up B Comes Out Pretty Darn Fast. I Was Wondering How Fast Does Down B Come Out And How Fast Can We Pull Out The Flip Kick.

Since My Last Tournament I Friendly A Falco Player And I Was Spamming Down Just For Jumping, And He Was Trying To Shoot Me Since We Know Down B Has Invisibility Frames How Much Time Do We Have Between Invisibility Frames?

I Was Thinking Down B Could Be Put To Better Use With The Right Data.

Lol, out of shield flip jump.

 

[ph00tbag]

Lol, out of shield flip jump.

There are 12 invincibility frames on Flip Jump. I have more data on it, but it's not on hand. I wouldn't count on Flip Jump being your savior, though. It's really not good for an approach.

 

[Charby]

Invicibilty Frames on Down B, well am used to be hard counter with the "Down B comeback", now that all my opponents know my game style i usualy get hit when using my down b and falled to my death without any other jump. With my opponents on the edge.
Well ZSS "s is the worst grab ever in the game, i remembered some times where my plasma whip goes through the body of opponent without grabbing her.
Well another useless move is the Fsmash,
oh maybe there is one use for that, use it on a ballon to reset your attacks in smash ville when your opponent is dying is the best option i know.
The Nair hasnt any follow up, oh well you can use for mix you game and try combo with it, but in fact this not effective at all

 

[Hence]

The Nair hasnt any follow up, oh well you can use for mix you game and try combo with it, but in fact this not effective at all

You obviously haven't seen the best ZSS in Socal.

N-Air with reverse momentum at low percentages works quite nicely into a F-Air or D-Tilt.
I reccormend watching FadedImage's set against ViceGrip for more information.

There are 12 invincibility frames on Flip Jump. I have more data on it, but it's not on hand. I wouldn't count on Flip Jump being your savior, though. It's really not good for an approach.

Who said anything about an approach? Outside of recovering with Flip Jump Kick against an opponent that's charging a smash, I almost never use her down+b as an approach (edgeguarding is a different story, but it's a safe approach when the opponent is stunned).
Also, I'm interested in reading your compiled data on Flip Jump.
Whenever you have the time, you know.

If you really believe that none of your out of shield options would hit your opponent, you can always attempt a Flip Jump. Granted, if your opponent knows you're going to flip jump because you've overused it, you can easily take more damage without gaining any ground at all.

 

[Charby]

a use for the nair that i found is when your opponent pushed you out the edge the you MC immediatly with nair and touch him very easy... but i think that u air is a well better and safe at low percentage

 

[Hence]

a use for the nair that i found is when your opponent pushed you out the edge the you MC immediatly with nair and touch him very easy... but i think that u air is a well better and safe at low percentage

In reference to your first comment: Isn't that true with any character? If an opponent pushes you with an attack while you're sheidling, you'll almost immediately strike them with a falling nair if you're holding A.

That may be true, but no one should be able to tell you exactly how you play. This is where N-Air comes in handy, variety. Knowing when to use such situational attacks like N-Air is where good players seperate themselves from the rest. Myself, If I'm not grabbing armor pieces with N-Air, I probably use it on accident once every ten sets. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Obviously, If N-Air hits your opponent's shield, you're getting punished.
N-Air is 50:50.
It doesn't enter into the stale moves list, which means it can't even refresh kill moves.
N-Air is a meager 10% that is easily forgotten and looks terrible everytime you miss.
Its hitbox covers a small area behind ZSS as well, similar to that of F-Smash.
Maybe that's why N-Air is underused.

 

[Charby]

The fastest thing for grabbing suit piece is Z, but you can start a combo by grabing with uair and start jungle with the aerial AT holding items then lauch the piece by waiting a little when the opponent is up enough

 

[smashkng]

Zamus is very light and her grab is so punishable, this a poor combination. Zamus may also have problem KOing if she's killers are not fresh.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zamus is very light and her grab is so punishable, this a poor combination. Zamus may also have problem KOing if she's killers are not fresh.

The only attack that has trouble killing when it isn't fresh is side b. Bair will kill when decayed a little, as will fair. Down-b kick will as well. All three of the latter are very very strong moves.

 

[Jayce]

I honestly think her biggest weakness is her grab. I swear it has the slowest startup in the game, and God forbid you miss.

A decent fsmash would be also be nice, although I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be.

The flip jump is incredibly useful, but the included kick can be problematic. It seems to go off on its own sometimes, and then you're helpless and falling.

 

[Hence]

The fastest thing for grabbing suit piece is Z, but you can start a combo by grabing with uair and start jungle with the aerial AT holding items then lauch the piece by waiting a little when the opponent is up enough

Yep.

I haven't used N-Air to grab armour pieces since december unless it was unintentional.
D-Thow to U-Air is 2 good.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

fsmash is her worse move, theres no question for that.

down b is a great escape move. it really works at times where you are falling and you know your opponent is gonna get you, you move right then when they try a dash grab, reverse down b.

 

[sasook]

I like the nair, personally. I find it easier to space with than the plasma whip, and it leaves my whip fresh for KOs at the same time. I know it doesn't undecay it, but it prevents me from using the whip as often.

 

[Hence]

I like the nair, personally. I find it easier to space with than the plasma whip, and it leaves my whip fresh for KOs at the same time. I know it doesn't undecay it, but it prevents me from using the whip as often.

Plasma Whip, difficult to space?

Whaaa?

 

[sasook]

I'm a weird ZSS, I like playing extreme close range lol.

 

[Nefarious B]

I need to try using nair more, I get punished too much for trying to fair when people are close to my front, nair seems easier to space and less punishable.

 

[TheRockSays]

You obviously haven't seen the best ZSS in Socal.

N-Air with reverse momentum at low percentages works quite nicely into a F-Air or D-Tilt.
I reccormend watching FadedImage's set against ViceGrip for more information.



Who said anything about an approach? Outside of recovering with Flip Jump Kick against an opponent that's charging a smash, I almost never use her down+b as an approach (edgeguarding is a different story, but it's a safe approach when the opponent is stunned).
Also, I'm interested in reading your compiled data on Flip Jump.
Whenever you have the time, you know.

If you really believe that none of your out of shield options would hit your opponent, you can always attempt a Flip Jump. Granted, if your opponent knows you're going to flip jump because you've overused it, you can easily take more damage without gaining any ground at all.

i have to agree here with hence i never mention down b as an approach the move is to slow to pull it off, but defending are selves there has to be a way it can be used. I basically made a falco stop using lasers because of the flip.

Also guys The ZSS grab has several different phases, you guys mention it is bad then i say you are not using correctly, i have learned the only times to use it is when your opponent is stunned(by some move we did to stun them) or their move has bad ending lag or good enough lagg to be grabbed. Another phase would be when they are very close the Grab is so quick it never became and issue. After those 2 phases there should not be no whining about the grab. Now When we already grabbed the opponent The only 2 options we got are front and down, The front grab can be called the last phase of grabbing almost like a chain grab and obviously can only be done to some characters.

 

[ph00tbag]

also Guys The Zss Grab Has Several Different Phases, You Guys Mention It Is Bad Then I Say You Are Not Using Correctly

1121121112

 

[noradseven]

The only attack that has trouble killing when it isn't fresh is side b. Bair will kill when decayed a little, as will fair. Down-b kick will as well. All three of the latter are very very strong moves.

You need to see me play back air does 5-6% damage, I degraded the move way too much.

But because of this both my u-air and over B are fresh, so.

Also I saw some people dissing the neutral air O_O, that move shouldn't be used alot but it is great if properly timed, nice priority and hitbox, and combos into f-air alot especially on fast fallers.

 

[Kokaloo]

Nair is my get away move.
Knowing that it will do no more and no less than ten and will not diminish anything is so helpful.
Also, pummels help everything.
She has a decently fast one, and if you grab the do that. =]

 

[Nefarious B]

I know nair itself doesn't get stale but does it unstale other moves?

 

[Hence]

I know nair itself doesn't get stale but does it unstale other moves?

No, it doesn't enter into the stale moves list.